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Area: WoT Background                   
Jamali resigns
Today's Headlines
Headline Comments [Views]
Page 1: WoT Operations
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Arabia
‘Kingdom Has Done Everything to Choke Terror Funding’
The Kingdom is continuing to freeze bank accounts that are not updated and pressing ahead with efforts to combat money laundering and terror funding, a senior central bank official said yesterday. “We started in early April gradually blocking accounts that were not updated, and the process is ongoing, with accounts not updated within a 90-day grace period frozen automatically,” said Khaled Abu Obeid, chairman of the anti-financial crime and money laundering committee of the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency (SAMA). By the end of May, accounts that were frozen because they were not updated “ranged between five and eight percent” of the total, he told AFP.

There are about 3.2 million personal accounts and around 112,000 corporate accounts in the 11 banks operating in Saudi Arabia, most of which have hundreds of branches across the Kingdom. Holders of personal accounts were required to provide valid identification, while companies were asked to provide either a current commercial registration or valid IDs for people who have authority to sign. The frozen accounts are unblocked once they are in order, Abu Obeid said. Saudi Arabia said on March 31 it had received a clean bill of health from the inter-governmental Financial Action Task Force (FATF) on money laundering and terror funding following a trip to the Kingdom by an FATF team in September 2003.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 11:09:11 AM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "We started in early April"


sez it all
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:36 Comments || Top||

#2  I call BullShit.
Posted by: Charles || 06/26/2004 12:43 Comments || Top||

#3  Yeah. What Charles said.
Posted by: Mark || 06/26/2004 13:32 Comments || Top||

#4  The Kingdom is also offering a deal on the Brooklyn Bridge. Cheap.
Posted by: Chris W. || 06/26/2004 14:09 Comments || Top||

#5  Punctuate it properly, the way the Saudi actually said it.

Kingdom Has Done [Everything to], (Choke), Terror Funding
Posted by: OldSpook || 06/26/2004 14:42 Comments || Top||

#6  To be honest, I suspect they are actually doing what they say they are, although perhaps not as thoroughly as we would like. Why else would al Qaeda be attacking them head-on?
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 14:53 Comments || Top||

#7  To be honest, I suspect they are actually doing what they say they are, although perhaps not as thoroughly as we would like. Why else would al Qaeda be attacking them head-on?

Good point, Zhang Fei. But despite any Saudi efforts the phrase, "day late and a dollar short" still comes to mind.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 15:52 Comments || Top||

#8  It just took the Princes a while to figure out how to divy up the confiscated funds.
Posted by: Stephen || 06/26/2004 16:55 Comments || Top||

#9  The Saudis are doing everything they can to choke the terror funding . . . except cutting it off.
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/26/2004 21:25 Comments || Top||


Arabs Have Much to Learn From the Japanese
From Arab News. Excerpt.
Perhaps the answer can be found in a book published by a Japanese Arabist, Nopoaki Notohara, who spent about 30 years living in the Arab world and wrote a book entitled “The Arabs.” In this book, the author, who seems to care a great deal about this part of the world, mentions some for the major differences between the Japanese and Arab minds. He says that Japanese “add something new every day, while most Arabs just reminisce on facts discovered long time ago.” He also says the Arabs cannot comprehend how Japan was able to deal with the US after being bombarded with atomic bombs at the end of World War II. The Arabs, he says, “expect that Japan makes an everlasting enemy of the US until doomsday.” They are also at a loss to understand that Japan did a lot of “truthful” and “candid” soul-searching following their grave defeat, and were able to learn from their old mistakes. Also, the Japanese discovered early on that emotion alone does not make a future and that they must deal with their old enemies and make them allies for the benefit of Japan. The writer concludes that the Arab mind cannot overcome its emotional, backward-looking thinking. This, I believe, limits our ability to adapt, change, and benefit from experiences, and is one of the reasons why we have not yet been able to transform from our old warriors, whose values were similar to those of the Samurais, into modern day warriors fit for this era.

Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate ourselves and learn from past mistakes, keeping the values that make us special while becoming adaptable, flexible, and letting the voice of reason and tolerance speak louder. That way we may gain the respect of the world through a deeper understanding of our own culture. In turn it will give future generations an improved chance of prosperity and growth. We don’t have to search far: Just look at some Muslim countries that have become successful while keeping their values and traditions. I am thinking in particular of Malaysia and Dubai’s boom experience. Perhaps most Arab countries missed the Industrial Revolution, but it is not too late to be a key player in the Information Revolution. We just need to member that emotion alone never makes a future.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 11:04:54 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Title? Good introspection - what are the odds it'll catch on, though. The Mullahs and Imams and Grand Wazirs have a vested interest in keeping the fodder ignorant and agitated (sp?)
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:41 Comments || Top||

#2  Interesting. It certainly is difficult to imagine a greater contrast than that between the mentality in most of east Asia and that in most of the Middle East. I was in Vietnam after 9/11, and the utter incomprehension and contempt expressed by locals for Arab/islamo-nut extremism was actually hilarious and encouraging. Females and food aren't the only big advantages east Asia has on the Arab world ....
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 14:08 Comments || Top||

#3  Muslim Arabs re-examining their beliefs critically?

Yah, right. I suppose you'll next be telling me Michael Moore has lost weight and become humble, and Ted Kennedy has stopped boozing and lying.
Posted by: OldSpook || 06/26/2004 14:39 Comments || Top||

#4  What OldSpook said.
Posted by: Stephen || 06/26/2004 17:51 Comments || Top||

#5  They are also at a loss to understand that Japan did a lot of “truthful” and “candid” soul-searching following their grave defeat

Japan also came to believe in a higher power.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 17:56 Comments || Top||

#6  Wanna bet they haven't learned the most important lesson the Japanese did?

Don't piss the Americans off! Yamato warned them, but did they listen...no.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 06/26/2004 21:07 Comments || Top||


53 Killed in Yemen Crackdown on Cleric
At least seven soldiers and 46 supporters of an anti-US cleric have been killed and 41 others injured in four days of fierce clashes in mountainous areas of the northern Yemeni province of Saada, the Interior Ministry said yesterday. The ministry said in a statement that 35 people had been injured in the fighting that erupted Monday when security and military forces tried to arrest Hussein Badruddin Al-Houthi, a prominent leader of the Shiite sect.

Authorities accuse Al-Houthi of spreading “misleading thought,” and inciting people against the United States by organizing anti-US demonstrations after weekly Friday prayers. They believe Al-Houthi, a leader of the Zaidi Shiite sect, is head of the rebel group “The Believing Youth”, which has led violent protests against the United States and Israel at mosques, security sources say. Among the charges against Al-Houthi and his group were attacking and killing security and military troops, raiding government buildings, and assaulting mosque preachers. In a strongly worded statement, the ministry dubbed Al-Houthi and his followers as “outlaws, rebels and extremists,” and accused him of receiving “foreign financial aid.”
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:59:29 AM || Comments || Link || [5 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Yeman remains a boiling hotbed of jihadic fanatics
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 22:44 Comments || Top||


Saudi Arabia – beheading capital of the world
Excerpt...
In Saudi Arabia, heads roll for sodomy, armed robbery, murder, and for being a Christian. Some Christians were beheaded after having been falsely accused of drugs or other crimes reportedly as benign as leading a Bible study or offering prayers. Saudis that convert to Christianity, or "desert Islam," are subject to the death penalty, as well. According to Amnesty International, more than half of those beheaded between 1990 and 1999 were foreign nationals, and some were Christian missionaries. Why has the Saudi government not returned those bodies to their loved ones for proper burial? Those condemned to death are taken to a public square blindfolded after midday prayers, hands tied behind their backs and forced to kneel facing Mecca. The police clear the square of all traffic and lay a blue plastic sheet 16-feet square on the ground. The executioner swings the sword two or three times before jabbing the poor soul in the back to force him to raise his head. More than 100 people have been beheaded in Saudi since 9-11, and the vast majority were not members of al-Qaida!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 02:47 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Ummmmm! WorldNetDaily! The Dessert site!
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 11:10 Comments || Top||

#2  Saudi Arabia – beheading capital of the world

And that's just the government.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 17:09 Comments || Top||


Saudi Arabia: Muslims Told Not to Be Swayed by Foreign Ideas
Mahmoud Ahmad, Arab News
An imam of the Prophet’s Mosque in Madinah yesterday lashed out against “infidels” whom he accused of being bent on the destruction of Muslim societies. “The enemies of Islam including the Jews, Christians and atheists and those who follow the Westernized and the corrupt (in Muslim) society are waging relentless campaigns against the Muslim nation,” Saleh Al-Budair said in the Friday sermon. “Using various methods to further their aims, they want to destabilize the Muslim nation, destroying its morality, obliterating its identity and preventing it from fulfilling its message.”
We carried this yesterday. I have the feeling we'll be referring back to it in the months to come. And I'm curious as to whether the NYT and WP will pick it up...
Sheikh Al-Budair said Muslims had allowed “infidel nations” to take over their societies and dictate to them what they should do.
"Nobody tells us what to do! We'll chop people's heads off if we wanna! We don't have to adhere to any rules we don't make up ourselves!"
"We're number one! We're number one! YAAARRRRRGGGHH!"
“It is extremely regrettable that many Muslims have opened their countries, their businesses, their homes and their hearts to those alien trends and handed over their societies to the infidel nations who deviated from the right path,” he told thousands of faithful who thronged the mosque complex. He said Muslims must protect the sanctity of their religion
... by killing large numbers of people in painful and degrading ways...
and not be carried away by “deviant ideas”. Instead they must stick to the Shariah. Muslims “are too honorable, noble and righteous to imitate or copy corrupt, miserable and confused infidel nations that are only concerned with pursuing their own lusts and that are ready to stake their own life in order to enjoy pleasures and delights,” the imam said.
"Jewelled turbans and dancing girls and lissome Nubian slaves are not for infidels! They are our birthright!"
"No, cousin Mahmoud, they're not for you either, they're for the caliph and his vizar. Now shaddup and do as you're told."
Al-Budair warned following non-Muslim examples was the road to perdition but added Muslims, equipped with the best of teachings, were capable of fighting their enemies.
"Yeah! Dey got nuttin'! Nuttin', I tells yez!"
Meanwhile, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia called on terrorists to surrender under an amnesty offered by Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd. “This is a blessing for which you should thank God and comply with,” Abdul Aziz Al-Asheikh said in his Friday sermon in Riyadh. “You should not take that as a sign of weakness, but rather as a well-intended decision to correct mistakes,” Al-Asheikh told worshippers. Extremists should heed the words of the king, whose “duty is to help those who sinned to return to the true faith.” The mufti condemned the suicide bombings and killings of foreigners including US engineer Paul M. Johnson who was decapitated by his kidnappers in Riyadh earlier this month. “They say they are waging jihad (holy war) in the name of God. Is the killing of innocent people jihad? Is the violation of God’s law jihad?” the mufti asked.
Sure. Why do you ask?
Al-Hayat pan-Arab daily ran a quote supporting the king’s call from the brother of Saleh Al-Oufi, who is thought to be the new leader of Al-Qaeda in the Kingdom. “In the name of brotherhood, and in the name of the tribe, I call upon you to answer the call of the homeland and give yourself up immediately,” Ali Al-Oufi was quoted as saying.
"Do it for Ma, Ouffie! She's askin' for yez!"
The only word that comes to mind when reading this article is SCHIZOPHRENIA!
Oh, there're lots of other words that pop to mind: xenophobia, blind hatred, arrogance...
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/26/2004 5:38:02 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Oh, there're lots of other words that pop to mind: xenophobia, blind hatred, arrogance...

You left out "hot candidate for the old glass and Windex."
Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 15:31 Comments || Top||

#2 
Muslims Told Not to Be Swayed by Foreign Ideas
You mean like decency, tolerance, respect for other religions and cultures, respect for women, learning (besides the extremist Koran), a work ethic, [need I go on?]....
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 15:38 Comments || Top||

#3  Muslims Told Not to Be Swayed by Foreign Ideas

Hmmm. Do you think this is in reaction to Gentle forming a punk band? I heard she formed the band after coming out of rehab following her Rantburg-inspired nervous breakdown. I caught her first single on MTV. It's a cover of "Rock 'n' Roll High School" by The Ramones. The vid rules, but her hajib does not lay well on her head what with the mohawk she is sporting these days. She calls her haircut (and band) The Abu Dhabi Do. Her Rock The Casbah Mid-East Tour '04 is coming along swell. The reviews are explosively good. "We Love You Nablus!!!" She is dedicating her first CD, "Pink Haze" to the latest Hamas leader (peace be upon his corpse). ROCK ON GETNLE!!! YOU RULE!!! WE WANT GENTLE!! WE WANT GENTLE!!
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 17:03 Comments || Top||

#4  Good Heavens Zpaz! The mushrooms aren't for everyday use!

Way funny!
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 17:59 Comments || Top||

#5  Right you are Shippy. (If I may modify your moniker this once with all due respect). 2 Hacker-Pschorr Weisse = 1 mushroom. I am definitely in the bag...again. What are you drinking? It is happy hour in Southland Chicago. White Sox beat the Cubs. I've been meaning to ask. There was a guy on my boat in the Navy named Shipman. Any relation? Shipman sea story to follow if interested.
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 18:50 Comments || Top||

#6  2? Try a Snakebite: Yukon Jack 100 Proof and Lime juice over ice.....sitting on the patio wi-fi'g in San Diego. Ima thinking it doesn't get much better than this
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 19:00 Comments || Top||

#7  Yukon Jack....you're visiting the dark gods. As Dennis Hopper said: bad things, man, bad things. I am visiting San Diego for the first time in my life in July for a conference. Any must see stuff I should plan? (Outta beer, swithcing to Rum.)
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 19:39 Comments || Top||

#8  Mission Beach in full-thong-sun; of course the zoo, Tijuana and Ensenada in Mexico if you've never been there (just get Mex-Insur car insurance); La Jolla Cove at sunset, the Del Mar horse races...enough? there's a lot more..
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 19:57 Comments || Top||

#9  Thongs...thongs...thongs...(stupor)...bad things, man, bad things. We don't get many of those 'round here. Are Tijuana/Ensenada touristy or get-drunk-thrown-in-jail sleazy. I am bringing my spousal unit. The ponies sound just my speed.
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 20:20 Comments || Top||

#10  Fire me off the story Zpaz, I always like to hear of my nere do well kin. :)

Especially if it involves drinking and or a train wreck... if the Christian name was Kelly high quality (tasteful of course) black and white glossies would also be appreciated.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 20:29 Comments || Top||

#11  Tijuana and Ensenada (less so) are as bad as you wanna be :-) - I f the wife unit is attending, I'd suggest Old Town in San Diego, instead. Try Old Town Mexican Cafe for excellent food/drinks - more locals go there than anywhere else - less touristy. Eat at SD Bay - Pt Loma Seafoods for a fish or squid sandwich and Anchor Steam on draft
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 20:58 Comments || Top||

#12  Kelly Shipman. She pithced for the Maryland Terps right?

My Shipman was the original gorilla. On board the boat, we had 2 main steam isolation valves. The valves were huge with 24" handwheels. For mere mortals, opening one valve would take about 3 minutes and could never be done in one continuous motion. It was always pull, move your hands, pull, move your hands, pant, rest, pull. Shipman could open both valves simultaneously, one in each hand, in one continuous motion, each valve in a different clockwise direction, with both valves above his head, never with a firm grasp but with the palm of his hands like on a steering wheel, all in under 60 seconds. He was the missing link. Plus he was a great rad tech.

Anyway, one day he comes up to me and says, "I think I have a problem." "What's that?" I ask. "Well, my mother-in-law was having money problems so we had her move in. It was OK for a while and all, but she is starting to annoy us and we think she needs to find a place of her own." I asked, "Ok, what about the money?" "Well," he says, "she got a better job." "Ok, so what's the problem?" I ask. "Well, it's just that...well, she's having my baby."

My man.
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 21:19 Comments || Top||

#13  Thanks Frank.
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 21:23 Comments || Top||

#14  no problem - if you really need help, my email is accessible by removing the nospam :-)

hope you have a good trip!
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 21:32 Comments || Top||

#15  LOL Zpaz!
Definitely kin.... worrisome tho it is.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/27/2004 10:05 Comments || Top||


BAE offers 'Saudi danger money'
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 01:00 || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  What's your head worth?
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 8:40 Comments || Top||

#2  By the pound??
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 9:32 Comments || Top||

#3  They need a snappy recruiting video with a good sound track: "CONTRACT IN THE DANGER ZONE! CONTRACT IN THE DANGER ZONE! ..."
Posted by: A Jackson || 06/26/2004 10:13 Comments || Top||


MONEY ROW ERUPTS AT TERROR-HIT PLANT
Via the ’Saudi Gazette’ proceed with caution / state run publication:
RESUMPTION of work on a multi-million-dollar petrochemical project in Yanbu, interrupted by an attack that killed six Westerners, is being held up by a contractual dispute, a spokesman said Friday. Many of the expatriate staff of Houston-based ABB Lummus who left the country after the May 1 shooting spree at thr petrochemical plant are on standby to return, the spokesman told AFP, requesting anonymity. But we have a contractual dispute with the company for which we re carrying out the project ... partly over who will pay for the demobilization and remobilization of our staff, as well as the increased security we will put in place, he said. The spokesman, in neighboring Bahrain, denied that the row may have resulted from ABB Lummus pulling out of the project or demanding higher fees from the Saudi firm as a security premium. He said his company intended to carry on the expansion project, but the dispute was delaying its completion, initially slated for the end of the year.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 1:32:47 AM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  And so it begins...
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 12:14 Comments || Top||

#2  Those Kevlar vests ain't cheap, ya know!
Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 15:42 Comments || Top||


Incitement to Jihad on Saudi Government-Controlled TV
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [3 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "The big explosian will come", well damn!
Posted by: Lucky || 06/26/2004 0:57 Comments || Top||

#2  All the Saudi Wahhabi terrorism they have dished out to the world is about to repaid, right on top of the House of 'Fraud' Saud.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 1:15 Comments || Top||


China-Japan-Koreas
AP Refuses Comment on Video Tape of Kim Sun-il
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 00:54 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Next N. Korean Nuke Talks Set for Sept. 2010
Envoys to six-nation talks on the North Korean nuclear dispute said Saturday they would hold a new round of talks by the end of September, and will have diplomats meet before then to discuss the "first steps for denuclearization" of the North. The announcement came in a statement issued at the end of four days of talks in Beijing on Washington's demand for the North to give up its nuclear weapons development. "The parties agreed in principle to hold the fourth round of the six-party talks in Beijing by the end of September, 2004," said the two-page statement. "The parties authorize the working group to convene at the earliest possible date to define the scope, duration and verification as well as corresponding measures for first steps for denuclearization and ... make recommendations to the fourth round of the talks." "Corresponding measures" is the term used by diplomats to refer to aid for the North in exchange for abandoning its nuclear program.
I'm hoping the timeline slips further.
Posted by: Steve White || 06/26/2004 12:13:24 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  You got it...say November 3rd!!
Posted by: smn || 06/26/2004 0:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Results to depend on poll numbers.
Posted by: someone || 06/26/2004 0:34 Comments || Top||


Europe
Turks jug 10 al-Qaeda
Turkish police detained 10 people in connection with organizations linked to al-Qaeda in operations in central province of Konya, sources said on Saturday. Operations are staged to prevent possible provocation and attacks against NATO Summit that will be held in Istanbul on June 28 and 29. Sources told A.A correspondent that Konya anti-terrorism teams launched operation to provide security of NATO Summit to be held in Istanbul. The same sources noted that ten people who were reported that they fought in Afghanistan and Bosnia-Herzegovina and who received military training were detained in operations in Konya. Police seized guns, bullets, a hand grenade and documents on bomb making in the operation. Operations are under way.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/26/2004 6:24:07 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I have a bad feeling about Bush going to Turkey. I hope nothing happens to him.
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/26/2004 22:33 Comments || Top||


One Dead in Turkey in Hotel Accident
A faulty air conditioner blew up at a hotel in southern Turkey on Saturday, killing one person, officials said. An early report that a bomb had exploded was retracted.
I think I'll step out back and make sure there's no fuse on my air conditioner...
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:35:13 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  caused by gas buildup in the air conditioner,..."One person staying in the room was killed when the air conditioner exploded and collapsed the wall onto the person," Ormeci said

Jeezus! WTH kinda air conditioner do they use over there? Propane and C4?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:05 Comments || Top||

#2  Sounds like a Soviet Commrade Cooler.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 11:12 Comments || Top||

#3  Air conditioners - why do they hate us?
Posted by: PBMcL || 06/26/2004 12:11 Comments || Top||

#4  I believe they use nitroglycerin in their ACs. The liquid to gas phase change requires hardly any electric power at all.
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 12:38 Comments || Top||

#5  hmmm must do wonders with bomb-sniffing dogs?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 12:40 Comments || Top||

#6  I blame Bush. Somewhere in that air conditioner is a part made by Haliburton, and it fails deliberately in order to drive up profits from people buying replacements, which lets Halibruton have higher operating funds so as to drive their goal of stealing all the oil and killing all the baby ducks in the peace-loving muslim lands around the world and crush the dissent of protesting transgendered pink cardboard tank drivers in the enlightened EU.

I need another hit, man.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 06/26/2004 13:30 Comments || Top||

#7  Debka sez it was a bomb.
Posted by: Anonymous5089 || 06/26/2004 16:44 Comments || Top||

#8  I have worked around machinary of one type or another for many years and have never heard of an A/C unit exploding. Must not have been checked out by UL. Yeah right.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/26/2004 20:48 Comments || Top||


Fifth Column
Beheadings fuel fresh backlash against Muslims
The recent beheadings of two American businessmen in the Middle East have increased an already strong backlash against Arab-Americans and Muslims, who have been persecuted since the 9/11 attacks.
Those were the ones perpetrated by Muslim Arabs...
The murder of former New Jerseyan Paul Johnson has prompted hate mail, verbal attacks and anti-Islam signs and graffiti in New Jersey. Elsewhere in the country, Muslims have received death threats and mosques have been vandalized in the days after Johnson’s killing.
Johnson got more than a death threat, didn't he?
"Since 9/11, every time there is an incident overseas attributed to Muslims or Arabs, we go on orange alert ourselves," said Sohail Mohammed, a Clifton immigration lawyer. "With the death of Paul Johnson, we were extremely concerned that what happened overseas would have an impact here. There are individuals here who are off the wall, who think that every woman who wears a hijab or every man named Mohammed is out to blow things up." In the days after Johnson’s killing, anti-Islam signs surfaced in and around the rural, south Jersey neighborhood where he used to live. One read "Stamp Out Islam" next to a drawing of a boot over a crescent and star.
Got a good line on who's making war on us, do they?
Another, hung on a mailbox next door to Johnson’s sister’s home, was more detailed. "Last night I wasn’t a racist but today I feel racism towards Islamic beliefs," it read. "Last night Islamics had a chance to speak up for Paul Johnson, but today it’s too late. Islamics better wake up and start thinking about tomorrow."
But they won't. They're too busy thinking about yesterday...
New Jersey Attorney General Peter C. Harvey sent bias crimes investigators to the area, along with stepped-up State Police patrols. The signs are gone now, replaced with hand-lettered placards on utility poles that say "Our Prayers Are With the Johnson Family." Yellow ribbons festoon fences, road signs, stores and homes, the hope they had for Johnson transferred now to the American troops and civilians still in harm’s way.
That's a lot more touchy-feely than expressing what they really feel...
On Thursday, however, more anti-Muslim graffiti appeared on a Muslim man’s home in Egg Harbor Township. "It’s really our fear coming true," said Faiza Ali of the New Jersey chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. "It indicates a hatred that could turn into something violent."
In response to something that was gruesomely violent...
The day after Johnson’s killing, a coalition of Muslim groups held a rally in Paterson, the heart of New Jersey’s Arab-American community, to condemn the killing, saying such acts are contrary to Islam’s teachings. But apparently, not everyone got the message. A few days later, vandals tossed empty liquor and beer bottles at a mosque in Union City as congregants were inside mourning an Arab-American teenager who had been killed in a car crash. "If they are throwing empty bottles today, they could be throwing rocks, or worse, beheading us shooting at us tomorrow," said Aref Assaf, president of the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee’s New Jersey chapter.
Who was shooting at our guys this afternoon in Iraq?
Esquimaux.
In Florida, two mosques were vandalized in the days after Johnson’s killing. In the Tampa suburb of Lutz, someone broke into the Islamic Community Center and scrawled "Kill All Muslims" and "F___ Allah" on the mosque’s interior walls before smashing windows and breaking other items inside. In Charlotte Harbor, someone vandalized the mosque’s sign, and has been leaving threatening phone messages targeting Muslims. Elsewhere in Florida, a mosque in Pembroke Pines received a threatening letter, and an Islamic school in Kendall saw its sign defaced. In the St. Louis suburb of Ballwin, Mo., someone painted a swastika and the word "Die" on the wall of the Dar-Ul-Islam mosque. In Spring, Texas, dead fish were dumped near the entrance sign to the Champions Masjid mosque, which is under construction. And in the Chicago suburb of Orland Park, residents urged officials this week to reject a mosque’s building application; a Baptist pastor told a public hearing he feared it would attract Islamic extremists and violence. The center was approved over boos and catcalls from many in the audience.
Meaning some of our citizens are tired of that crap and don't want it around them. To me, that's a logical reaction. It's a result of being on the other side. The bad part comes when the people who aren't on the other side are lumped together with the Bad Guys. You have to identify which side you're on...
Muslim organizations around the country have been flooded with hate mail since Johnson and Nicholas Berg, a Pennsylvania businessman, were beheaded by kidnappers. A South Korean interpreter, Kim Sun Il, was beheaded this week. "I think it may be coming close to the time when we take Muslims hostage here in America," one man wrote to the Washington, D.C.-based Council on American-Islamic Relations. "I would not be against groups that killed Muslim males proved to be involved in anti-American or terror groups. I believe the time is coming when Muslims will not be safe inside the U.S. borders. I see nothing wrong with us doing the same things to them that they are doing to innocent people."
Wait a couple or three years and that attitude will become more common...
"It is high time you people wake up and smell the blood," another man wrote to Assaf’s group in New Jersey. "Turn in the terrorists. They are your relatives, in a lot of cases. Cousin Omar. Uncle Mohammad. You know what I mean. Until you come forward to help us stamp out this vermin, you are as bad as they. Don’t be like the Japanese during WW2. They ended up behind bars." And finally, this from a writer to a mosque in Sacramento: "I will be forming a group to take direct action in the form of pickets and protests in front of local mosques with pictures of the murders committed by your filthy `Lions of Islam’ to keep Americans aware of what scum Muslims truly are. Muslims are nothing but Nazis with a turban."
It is always about them, isn’t it? Now, they are the victims. Freaking unbelievable!!
To the contrary, it's very believable that they see themselves as victims.
They've been portraying themselves as victims of oppression for hundreds of years, that's why they have to have to have their own islamic state in every country they move into. That way they get to oppress themselves.
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/26/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "If they are throwing empty bottles today, they could be throwing rocks...tomorrow."

Is that like an Intifada? The Orland Park Mosque site is 20 minutes from my home. Now that Muslims are invading my land, does that mean I can start an Intifada under Islamic Rules of Engagement? If I start one, can Peter Jennings come to town and weep for my plight? Maybe Yasser can come to town and be the technical advisor for our Intifida. We would have to make some rubble so he could feel at home. I am sure we could leave some dozers running all night so he would sleep better. It's time to break out my "Mohammed lied, people died" signs.
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 0:30 Comments || Top||

#2  Slowly, the American body-politic is generating an anti-body response against the Islamicist cancer.

I don't have much doubt that the cancer is going to go into remission.

We're going to feel mighty sick though in the meantime... and not to happy with ourselves afterwords either; but I'm not planning on giving up my freedom of action and freedom from fear so that some Islamicists can exercise their religious right to cut off heads or enslave my women-folk.
Posted by: Leigh || 06/26/2004 0:33 Comments || Top||

#3  "Since 9/11, every time there is an incident overseas attributed to Muslims or Arabs, we go on orange alert ourselves," said Sohail Mohammed, a Clifton immigration lawyer. "With the death of Paul Johnson, we were extremely concerned that what happened overseas would have an impact here.

Kinda goes hand-in-hand with that "all Muslims are my brothers and sisters" bullsh*t you constantly spew. Why wouldn't it have an impact here? And I can't believe they actually a "Dar ul-Islam" moskkk in St. Louis. Talk about putting the f*cking cart before the horse.

Now will you start taking the American Street seriously, or do you want to wait for the beheadings?
Posted by: BH || 06/26/2004 0:44 Comments || Top||

#4  "an already strong backlash against Arab-Americans and Muslims, who have been persecuted since the 9/11 attacks." WTF???

This article is such an outrageous piece of typical bad contemporary journalism, it's hard to believe it's not an NYT/BBC story on the situation in Iraq or ties between al-Qaeda and Saddam.

Funny, I've been in the US quite a bit since 9/11, and haven't noticed all the persecution of Muslims and Arab-Americans. Nor has same been documented by private groups or the feds. There's been some -- every bit of it stupid and despicable -- but not much, a damn good thing. But this non-fact is just inserted baldly into the lead paragraph. Astonishing.

And it gets better. Note the comments of the immigration lawyer. He talks about fear at the news of any "incident overseas attributed to Muslims or Arabs". Got that -- "attributed"! And he adds that "with the death of Paul Johnson" his community went on alert. "The death" of Johnson! He couldn't even say "killing" of Johnson.

So pulling this all together, the lawyer might have more carefully phrased his remarks thusly: "With the death of Paul Johnson attributed to Muslims overseas, we feared a continuation of the persecution we have suffered since 9/11."

The morons who issue threats against mosques and vandalize property can be handled (and will be, hopefully very roughly) -- but is there any hope for journalism or Muslim community leaders to shake off their hallucinations and get serious?
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 0:48 Comments || Top||

#5  It's still important to distinguish between fascist Islamists and muslims who can be allies.

If you radicalise the moderates you will find yourself fighting an army 100 times as big.

Isolate and crush the Islamofascists and use Moderate Muslim allies to change the Islamofascist culture into a moderate religion capable of peaceful co-existence in the secular modern world and we've won.

Having an uneducated, racist backlash against Islam in general and muslims as an undifferentiated whole helps the Islamofascists, it doesn't help us.

Racist attacks just helps Islamofascists unify the muslims against us including those who *could* have been persuaded to help us or be on our side.

"See", they'll say... "the kaffirs are against muslims. They are only interested in crushing us out of existence. The umma must stick together and crush the infidel, follow Osama Bin Laden's holy example it's the only way."

Now those muslims who would ignore this and turn in the terrorists may be persuaded instead that this logic is right if we write racist graffiti all over every mosque and start abusing women just for wearing the abaya.

That is not the smart way to fight an ideological, cultural war.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/26/2004 0:49 Comments || Top||

#6  It's still important to distinguish between fascist Islamists and muslims who can be allies.

If you radicalise the moderates you will find yourself fighting an army 100 times as big.

Isolate and crush the Islamofascists and use Moderate Muslim allies to change the Islamofascist culture into a moderate religion capable of peaceful co-existence in the secular modern world and we've won.

Having an uneducated, racist backlash against Islam in general and muslims as an undifferentiated whole helps the Islamofascists, it doesn't help us.

Racist attacks just helps Islamofascists unify the muslims against us including those who *could* have been persuaded to help us or be on our side.

"See", they'll say... "the kaffirs are against muslims. They are only interested in crushing us out of existence. The umma must stick together and crush the infidel, follow Osama Bin Laden's holy example it's the only way."

Now those muslims who would ignore this and turn in the terrorists may be persuaded instead that this logic is right if we write racist graffiti all over every mosque and start abusing women just for wearing the abaya.

That is not the smart way to fight an ideological, cultural war.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/26/2004 0:49 Comments || Top||

#7 
[W]ho have been persecuted since the 9/11 attacks
Boo hoo. Dollars to donuts that Muslim hate incidents against Jews are still worse and far more frequent.
The day after Johnson’s killing, a coalition of Muslim groups held a rally in Paterson, the heart of New Jersey’s Arab-American community, to condemn the killing, saying such acts are contrary to Islam’s teachings. But apparently, not everyone got the message.
I'll say -- the thousands of local Muslims who didn't show up sure didn't. Nice whitewash by Newsday, omitting the telling fact that less than two dozen people showed up for this "coalition" "rally"...
Posted by: someone || 06/26/2004 0:49 Comments || Top||

#8  So where are all these mythical moderate Muslims?

Outside of Kurdistan, I mean.
Posted by: someone || 06/26/2004 0:52 Comments || Top||

#9  Nothing fresh about my backlash.

Zpas, pretty cool! "mahammed lied people died(die?)

I know an overpass that would be a good place to hang such; a goal perhaps! But baby its cold outside.
Posted by: Lucky || 06/26/2004 0:52 Comments || Top||

#10  oops don't know how that went in twice.. sorry!
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/26/2004 0:53 Comments || Top||

#11  Anon1

I hope that there are as many moderate muslims as you suggest. It would make this war easier.

I keep waiting for them to throng the streets protesting against the horrors perpetrated in the name of their religion ... waiting after 9/11 ... waiting after Daniel Pearl ... waiting after Nick Berg ... waiting after Paul Johnson ... I'm still waiting. Where are they?

Then again, how many moderates can there be in a religion whose chief prophet was a lying, murdering pedophile? How many moderates can there be in a religion whose judicial code accords lower-caste status to non-believers, less weight to a woman's testimony, countenances slavery, etc., etc.

I just don't know if there's anything "moderate" about islam. Period. Convince me otherwise.
Posted by: Kirk || 06/26/2004 1:07 Comments || Top||

#12  If your a mOOslim you are brain washed. Your an idiot and you belong to a Demonic cult that needs to be destroyed. The faster we get the Muslims and there ilk out of the USA the better.
When your religious symbol is based on the sword and your actions represent Satan, you belong to a cult that has you brained washed. This is a fight between good and evil. How can you think other wise.
Posted by: Long Hair Republican || 06/26/2004 1:17 Comments || Top||

#13  Kirk, you fool! islam means pieces. I'll convince you. Take Nick Berg, two pieces. Thank you!

Moderate is a relative term. My moderate is less moderate tham my cousins moderate. But my cousins moderte is less/more moderate than my neighbors moderate. It all adds up. Whats important is seething.
Posted by: Lucky || 06/26/2004 1:22 Comments || Top||

#14  Uh, Anon1 (#5)...WHAT fucking "moderate Muslims"? The ones working at CAIR - three of whose leaders have been indicted for aiding terrorist organizations? The ones preaching Jihad in their Saudi-funded mosques? Or maybe just the ones who "condemn" Muslim terrorism with the line "yes, it's terrible and against the tenets of the Koran, but..." And there's ALWAYS a "but". Usually having something to do with Jews...

Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) || 06/26/2004 1:37 Comments || Top||

#15  If you radicalise the moderates you will find yourself fighting an army 100 times as big.

Let's try a thought experiment: somewhere in the Islamic world, people are having this same conversation, "Ackmed I tell you, we don't need to kill all of the Infidel Americans, most of them are moderates and will recognize the rightness of our ways once we've had a chance to show them. If only we could isolate and destroy those few evil neocons who turn the American masses against us we could prevail with a minimum of bloodshed. The more of them we kill the more they will turn against us, we must kill only the neocons and we must do it quickly."

Let's assume that our hypothetical jihaddis carry out their plan and off every significant Republican elected and appointed official and party member in the US along with the unavoidable collateral damage of, say, xxx,xxx American citizens that they simply couldn't avoid killing in the process.

At that point in time would you: Believe the jihaddis had done you a favor in deposing an evil regime? Be willing to listen to their perfectly reasonable discourse about why you are now better off? Allow the jihaddis to reinvent American society in their own superior image? Feel joy that you were finally free of the oppressive neocon yoke? Worship Allah because your new masters deemed that you should do so (or die of course)? Acknowledge the absolute superiority of Muslim "culture" to our own?

I hope you're answering, "Of course not!" And I hope you get the point: we collectively need to recover from our accute case of rectal-cranial inversion and realize that there is no way to fight "radical Islam" without involving all of Islam. To believe otherwise is naïve in the extreme because when the chips fall, most Muslims will stand with Islam just as most Americans will stand with America.

In fact, the ties that bind Muslims to Islam are probably a good deal stronger than those that bind Americans to America because Muslims are collectively a brainwashed mass of religious zealotry. It's likely that a large majority of them will stand with their ideology until the bitter end. Since we can't win until Islam changes and since Muslims are unwilling to change it (remember that Allah has told them that it's both "absolute" and "perfect"), they leave us with but a single option: delenda est Islamo. Or something very similar.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 1:47 Comments || Top||

#16  KIRK:

There are 1 billion muslims in the world.

No they aren't protesting against the beheadings.

Many of them tacitly agree with the Islamofascists, support them with hiding places, money and agreeance with their ideas.

The trick is to drive a wedge between them and the Islamofascists and shunt them onto a path where they are turning them in and regarding them as enemies, instead of leaders.

If you straight out attack their religion and call their prophet a paedophile, then guess what? Those 1 billion muslims are going to hate you and see you as their enemy and side with the Islamofascists.

If you can't see that then you must just be dense, sorry but there it is.

There are plenty of moderate muslims to my north in Indonesia. They are becoming increasingly radicalised. Every time a mosque is vandalised and it hits their nightly news they become more and more radicalised. More violent Islamofascists emerge from the woodwork there and our uneasy alliance comes under strain.

Are you REALLY ready to nuke 1 billion people? That is the only way you can win if you want to fight like boneheads and alienate them all with a racist backlash that doesn't differentiate between Islamism the problem and the moderate solution.

Are you truly ready to nuke simultaneously nothern Sudan, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Indonesia, Malaysia, Southern Thailand, Southern Philipines, parts of Nigeria, Chechenya etc etc?

Well if you aren't going to put your nukes where your mouth is you'd better fight smart and not stupid.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/26/2004 2:49 Comments || Top||

#17  Are you REALLY ready to nuke 1 billion people?

Well, we would be doing them a huge favor if we did. Y'know, the 72 raisins they get in paradise if they die in battle with the infidels and all that. Seems like a win/win situation to me: they want to die, I'd like to kill them.

Now where'd I put my big red button?
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 3:22 Comments || Top||

#18  Well if you aren't going to put your nukes where your mouth is you'd better fight smart and not stupid
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, so even with a small percentage of Muslims who are radicals we will reach a point when the sheer numbers of radicals will be too great to "fight smart." Radicals are not being killed fast enough and we infidels are not breeding fast enough.

If I were a moderate Muslim why would I want to throw in my lot with the losing side? As a Muslim, I'm home free. Why chose to align myself with the "infidels?" What's in it for me to stand up for the lives of the infidels, pray tell, #16?
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 3:25 Comments || Top||

#19  Many of them tacitly agree with the Islamofascists, support them with hiding places, money and agreeance with their ideas.

The trick is to drive a wedge between them and the Islamofascists and shunt them onto a path where they are turning them in and regarding them as enemies, instead of leaders.


Sooo.....how do you propose to drive a wedge between Islamofascists and regular Muslims that "tacitly agree" with those evil Islamofascists? Money? Appeasement? Sex on demand? Sounds like a losing proposition to me.

There are plenty of moderate muslims to my north in Indonesia. They are becoming increasingly radicalised. Every time a mosque is vandalised and it hits their nightly news they become more and more radicalised.

Well boo hoo hoo. Churches and synagogues have been vandalized before, and you don't hear of Christians engaging in suicide-bomb attacks on non-Christians, or Jews getting all bent out of shape and declaring "jihad" on goyim, do you?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/26/2004 3:36 Comments || Top||

#20  Anon1,

Why do AMERICAN-MUSLIMS have to be convinced? Are they muslim first and then Americans? If that is the case then, they do not belong in the country!
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/26/2004 4:27 Comments || Top||

#21  Anon1's argument basically comes down to - we must appease them because the alternative is too awefull to contemplate. His argument is correct as far as goes, i.e. there seems no alternative between appeasement and annialation. But he falls into the same trap as most of you, which is to characterize the problem as one of individuals. Its not! The problem is Islam or at least significant streams of Islam.

Once you look at this way the solution is obvious. Destroy all the mosques, kill all the imans and forceable convert the adherents. What you convert them to is a matter of complete indifference to me, since I am an atheist.
Posted by: phil_b || 06/26/2004 7:18 Comments || Top||

#22  phil> "Destroy all the mosques, kill all the imans and forceable convert the adherents."

You correctly identified the way to the annihilation of our culture. Cure the disease by killing the patient? Spare the leg by murdering the victim?

So, what's exactly the difference between doing what you suggest, and actually losing the war? The end-result seems to me to be the same -- the defeat of western civilisation by the forces of religious fanaticism.

I'd choose appeasement a million times over rather than the abject surrender to religious fascism that *your* plan represents.

And you should care very much what religion is picked, since you as an atheist, will be among the first to be converted into it. You can't force-convert people into a religion without changing the whole of society to service *exclusively* that religion.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 8:41 Comments || Top||

#23  Then again, how many moderates can there be in a religion whose chief prophet was a lying, murdering pedophile?

As many as there can be in Judaism, whose chief prophet, Moses ordered the genocide of all the Midianites with the exception of the underage virgin girls to be used by the Israelites.

How many moderates can there be in a religion whose judicial code accords lower-caste status to non-believers, less weight to a woman's testimony, countenances slavery, etc.,

As many as there could exist in pre-Civil War American South.

Long Hair Republican> If your a mOOslim you are brain washed. Your an idiot and you belong to a Demonic cult that needs to be destroyed.

I'm sure that Nero may well have said the same thing about the Christians.

And I can say the same about the Republicans for that matter.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 8:49 Comments || Top||

#24  Bomb-a-rama> "Every time a mosque is vandalised and it hits their nightly news they become more and more radicalised." Well boo hoo hoo.

Ofcourse YOU wouldn't care, since ofcourse YOU don't think there's any chance whatsoever we might lose the war.

Those of us lacking your religious conviction in our invincibility are very much interested in whether we'll be in war with a few tens thousands or with a billion. We very much care about how many are our enemies, and how many are our allies. And how many stand neutral, which unlike Bush's moronic comment "You are either with us or against us" can indeed occur. Some people, some *nations*, have no particular interest in the conflict.

I think it's stupid of them, personally, but it exists.

But USA can do it alone, as I've been told in this forum, against the whole of the world. You don't need no stinking europe as allies, you don't need to select your targets wisely. Whenever I've called for the stupidity of the targets chosen, some idiot like B would say "We are determined" as if determination is even near enough when intelligence is lacking.

You think that people becoming radicalized are something that influences only them? It doesn't turn them into victims that your sarcastic "boo-hoo-hoo" should apply, it turns them into *enemies*.

In which case weep, quite non-sarcastically, for us.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 9:04 Comments || Top||

#25  Bush's moronic comment "You are either with us or against us"

Only in Europe could that statement be misinterpreted. So, let me try to rephrase it: "Are you for flying airplanes into buildings, or are you against it?"
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 9:37 Comments || Top||

#26  Maybe it's time for muslems to learn that
tolerance is a two-way street?
Posted by: Anonymous5397 || 06/26/2004 9:42 Comments || Top||

#27  Aris, I think you overblow the conversion arguement. The difference is they attacked our civilization and we were forced to destroy their culture. Just as the culture of Nazism and the Empire-worship Bushudo culture of Japan were both destroyed. I choose altering or destroying hostile cultures far and above over appeasement and conquest by Islam.

What they are converted too would be a matter of who and where. In India and Indonesia, with very strong Hindu roots Hinduism would be the natural choice. In Iran with its Zorastorian history that would be the natural choice. In East Turkmenistan I'd go with Bhuddism, in fact when in doubt go with whichever slant of Bhuddism the Dali Lama preaches.

Those that are not Moslems would not be converted to anything, I dont' know where you got that idea. Athiests would remain athiests. Its Mosques and Korans we'd be dumping in the rubble pile and urinating upon.

Cultures live and die every day. Many are not worth saving. This putting every culture up on a pedistool despite a history of mistreating women, killing gays, vile antisemitism, and launching wars against all of their neighbors puts Islam as a religion/culture firmly in the not worth saving catagory. If the moderates within the religion/culture want to save it perhaps they should stand up and prove the radicals do no represent them. OTherwise they take the risks alongside the radicals.

Islamoids started this war, and uprooting the culture (which is entwined with Islam 100%) may very well be the only way to end it. So be it.
Posted by: Yank || 06/26/2004 9:53 Comments || Top||

#28  Yank> Those that are not Moslems would not be converted to anything, I dont' know where you got that idea.

From history. I've never seen an example of force-converting people into something without enforcing that religion throughout society.

In the Roman Empire the forced religion was the emperor worship -- which was relatively mild since it only came in conflict with monotheism (Judaism and Christianity). But ofcourse that one conflict was very real -- its result was the destruction of ancient Israel, and the way the Christian were persecuted until they triumphed over Rome and started persecuting the polytheists in turn.

In the Soviet block and China, the state religion was communism. Once again when you try to forbid a religion you need another religion to take its place *exclusively*.

And a tiny little sidenote, Muslim countries already have nukes. So you won't be able to destroy Islam without destroying the whole of the planet.

The only thing you can strive for is to enforce secularism. It's sheerest stupidity to even think you can destroy the religion of more than one billion people.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 10:18 Comments || Top||

#29  Rafael> "Only in Europe could that statement be misinterpreted."

I think a better way of putting it is "Only in the USA would that statement NOT be misinterpreted."

But since the world was listening, it was stupid of Bush to speak such an easily misunderstandable comment as if he had truly meant the "misunderstanding".

Are you for flying airplanes into buildings, or are you against it?

Personally I'm fully in opposition to terrorism and fully in support of Western civilisation (as long as it remains Western civilisation).

But there are probably hundreds of millions Muslims that don't give a damn to planes falling in the USA when they themselves live in poverty or even under brutal dictatorships which may be friendly to the West. When they may themselves live under secular dictatorship, and an Islamic tyranny wouldn't truly worsen their lives one bit.

Such people are *neutral*. They just don't give a damn about the West. They are *neutral*, they only want to live out their lives. They have nothing to lose irregardless of which side wins the conflict.

Until you attack the entirety of their religions. In which case they will indeed care, because they *will* have things to lose.

Yank says that if the moderates want to save the culture they should convince us not all Muslims are radical -- but using that argument Yank once again falls to the same folly: He obviously thinks that our victory is predetermined. That the only decision left to make is how brutal or how lenient we will be against Islam!

WE MAY YET LOSE!!!!

If you force neutrals to pick sides, then you pretty damn well be *sure* you can afford them to take the *other* side. And you pretty damn well give them a reason to pick your side -- other than your belief in their cowardice.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 10:32 Comments || Top||

#30  But since the world was listening, it was stupid of Bush to speak such an easily misunderstandable comment

Yeah I know. Next time he speaks at the UN he should strive to bring himself down to the lowest common denominator. That way he can be understood by everyone.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 10:44 Comments || Top||

#31  I'm still shocked that Aris has never heard of a man being called a "cunt".
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/26/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#32  Rafael> Next time he speaks at the UN he should strive to bring himself down to the lowest common denominator.

Much better than speaking about crusades.

Much better than using the language that only the people who already support him full-heartedly can correctly interpret.

Robert Crawford> I'm still shocked that Aris has never heard of a man being called a "cunt".

Well most of the times I've been insulted in English, it's been in foreign political forums such as this. And though here I've been called a a troll, a communist, a homo, and a goat-fucker, I've not yet been called a cunt.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 10:51 Comments || Top||

#33  If the Muslim community is seen as proactive in the weeding out of the radical elements in their midst than the American people would see them as allies. Where are the patriotic young Muslims lining up to join the Armed Forces and Intelligence services to fight radical Islam?
Posted by: Canaveral Dan || 06/26/2004 11:08 Comments || Top||

#34  Dear Long Hair Republican, Your argument might be more convincing if you could at least learn the difference between "your" (possesive as in your house, your car) and "you're" (a contraction of you are).
Posted by: Anonymous5398 || 06/26/2004 11:12 Comments || Top||

#35  Aris, reread RC's jab yesterday....I think you missed it
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:21 Comments || Top||

#36  Here is more background on the Orland Park saga:
link, link, link, link, link. One piece of delicious irony in all this, Hooters is down the street from the mosque. You can take my land, but for Mohammed's sake, keep your hands off my Hooters.
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 11:24 Comments || Top||

#37  Anon 1 -
Are you truly ready to nuke simultaneously nothern Sudan, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Indonesia, Malaysia, Southern Thailand, Southern Philipines, parts of Nigeria, Chechenya etc etc? Well if you aren't going to put your nukes where your mouth is you'd better fight smart and not stupid.

Okay, let me say my piece. First, I've worked with nuclear weapons - and I hate the goddamned things. Six years in Strategic Air Command teaches you that to use them is to have FAILED, that you did not do your job and now your family and friends will pay the ultimate price. I quite literally loathe them, and still have the occasional nightmare about them.
The problem is that we are quickly coming up on one indisputable, inescapable conclusion - one third of the world's population has gone renegade, and their stated belief towards the rest is to either enslave them or kill them - and from what I'm seeing, there's a great many Muslims who have no problems with either option. Even the media is having a tougher and tougher time ignoring the obvious, and all it will take is a few more spectacular atrocities in the rest of the world - or one good one here - and all the RoP stories in the world will not save the Muslims who remain silent.
Friend, I hope we will fight hard AND smart. But the bottom line is that we are outnumbered and outgunned. Europe is at most about a decade away from being either neutralized or becoming actively anti-Western. We're going to see something that will look amazingly like WWII, and it's going to involve nuclear weapons, and we won't be the ones using them first. The rest of the world has never, ever, EVER seen this nation with its back to the wall...and when it happens, there will be one of two results - we will either start glassing cities, or we will be defending our own homes.

Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski || 06/26/2004 11:31 Comments || Top||

#38  Frank G> I didn't miss the jab. But if there was anything more subtle in it than the implication *I* should be called such, I failed to understand it.

Was that a linguistic failing on my part? Is there a different jab in it, one clever enough to be repeated twice?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 11:34 Comments || Top||

#39  by assuming you'd already been called it, he as much as did it himself - very Churchillian
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:37 Comments || Top||

#40  Mike> Al Qaeda doesn't have two billion members, so it's not one third of the world's population that has gone renegade and wants to enslave the rest.

Not even the majority of muslim *countries* are such. You can count the state-supporters of Islamic terrorism in the fingers of one hand. Syria, Iran, Sudan, Saudi Arabia. That's it. And the Palestinian Authority, ofcourse. I don't believe I'm forgetting anyone, now that Lybia and Iraq are considered off the list.

You have about as many state-*opponents* of Islamic imperialism among Muslim countries. Turkey. Jordan. Kuwait. Egypt.

The only thing that makes people see this be a war against the whole of Islam is the UTTER UTTER INSANITY that led the Bush administration declare war against a secular Muslim regime whose ties to terrorism were the most peripheral of them all. And ofcourse the stupidity of "you are not with us, you are against us".

Until such time as you start seeing the neutrals, you'll keep on seeing the whole world as against you. In reality, most of that one third of the world simply does not give a damn.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 11:49 Comments || Top||

#41  by assuming you'd already been called it, he as much as did it himself

I know. Perhaps that's considered subtlety under his bridge, but I still can't find it nearly clever enough to be worth repeating twice.

But obviously if I'd ignored it in this thread as well RC would keep on repeating it in every thread I participated in until he got a reaction. No reason to stop at twice. Hope he now has his wish and will leave the threads alone.

Churchill used such kinds of insults? Had no idea.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 11:56 Comments || Top||

#42  Much better than using the language that only the people who already support him full-heartedly can correctly interpret.

Support him full-heartedly in the fight against terrorism, you mean? Then you're right. Supporters of terrorism probably didn't understand a single word of that statement.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 12:01 Comments || Top||

#43  Aris, you're a cunt.
Not only that, you're a stupid one, too.
The Muslims of the world must choose secularism--that is the point everyone's trying to make.
While the U.S. isn't interested in practicing "religious facism" as a foreign policy, it's becoming clear that all Islam, not just radicalized Islam, poses a very real danger because the Koran contains the very dictates that call their adherents to "kill the infidels" and to take over the world, by force if necessary, for Islam.
I can foresee a day when the practice of being a Muslim is outlawed all over the world for that reason.
Once again, you hijacked the thread--which is about Paul Johnson's community being justifiably outraged by his senseless and brutal beheading in the name of Allan.
Who could blame them?
Katsaris's remarks show that he doesn't know *shit* about what life is like in the United States: since 9/11 there have been remarkably few attacks of any kind on Muslims and they are clearly at total liberty here to worship, wear headscarves and even preach the violent takeover of America for Allan at public meetings.
Rather than putting them in camps the way we did the Japanese in WWII, we go out of our way to respect their religion!
I say the Roosevelt Administration had the right idea.
And we just arrested Zarqawi's closest lieutenant in Minnesota!
Katsaris, why don't you keep your promises to not post here anymore?
Your addition to the conversation is NOT HELPFUL, you cunt.
Posted by: Jen || 06/26/2004 12:06 Comments || Top||

#44  As usual, Aris has some good points, such as:

"If you force neutrals to pick sides, then you pretty damn well be *sure* you can afford them to take the *other* side. And you pretty damn well give them a reason to pick your side."

Then things get confusing:

"The only thing you can strive for is to enforce secularism."

How do you do that? How do you enforce secularism, exactly, when the leadership of over one billion people on the planet is opposed to it, and clearly list secularism as an "enemy" of everything they hold to, and the reason for the war in the first place? There is no reason to think for a moment that they would willingly submit to secularism, which they consider a competing religion/culture.

"I'm sure that Nero may well have said the same thing about the Christians. And I can say the same about the Republicans for that matter."

Equating Nero's attitude and actions against the Christians with Republicans? Now that's definitely off the deep end! Besides, Nero was a secularist, and with all of your anti-Christian or anti-"perceived as Christian" sentiments, your statement seems to be contradictory. Sadaam was a secularist too, and it's clear that secularsim doesn't guarantee anything regarding human rights, freedom, and morality.

"You can't force-convert people into a religion without changing the whole of society to service *exclusively* that religion."

Like they do in the moslem world, especially Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran etc.? --countries I NEVER hear you bitch about, Aris. I only hear you bitch about America. I don't hear you talk about the crimes of Islamic societies, and there are plenty of examples on Rantburg every day. Are you not aware that the Islamics are at war with Western civilization and the very things you say you believe in? This has always confused me about you.

"Personally I'm fully in opposition to terrorism and fully in support of Western civilisation (as long as it remains Western civilisation). But there are probably hundreds of millions Muslims that don't give a damn to planes falling in the USA when they themselves live in poverty or even under brutal dictatorships which may be friendly to the West. When they may themselves live under secular dictatorship, and an Islamic tyranny wouldn't truly worsen their lives one bit. Such people are *neutral*. They just don't give a damn about the West. They are *neutral*, they only want to live out their lives. They have nothing to lose irregardless of which side wins the conflict. Until you attack the entirety of their religions. In which case they will indeed care, because they *will* have things to lose."

Glad you oppose terrorism (I just wish you'd say so more often). But about the other point: We may not have a choice but to defend ourselves, and we can put out the message that we are not interested in destroying a religion they believe in--except if that "religion" is the basis for their war of aggression against us in the West. Sure the neutrals are caught in the middle, but neutrals don't have the clout to change things anyway (unless empowered by an outside source). Their very position and situation in the society they're a part of precludes them from being active, change-making players for the most part--although I totally appreciate and agree with the idea you are putting out there--that we need to win the Arab street. If it can be done, I'm all for it, but I'm just not sure that that is not an ethnocentric viewpoint of a Westerner like yourself. In any case, I think it's important to continue to delegitimize "radical" Islam, for the sake of those within the greater structure that either don't fully understand it, or who don't agree with the ones in power (an example of a successful "parting of the ways" that comes to mind is in Iraq--plenty of moslems are fighting the extremist moslems).

I agree with you that it's important to remember that not all moslems are "died-in-the-wool" enemies, per se, but that becomes difficult when moslems here, who have all the civil freedoms they need, and the power, wealth, comfort of life, and protection of law (and the interest of the media) to make a stand--yet they don't and won't speak out against the actions of the moslem extremists overseas and here. Their silence features them as supportive accomplices. There is no other explanation.

If they, like you seem to, Aris, support a secular type of government such as we have, they would and should be speaking against the atrocities and aims of an opposing group (i.e. the Islamics) that wants to annihilate the government and culture which is providing them with so many benefits. Americans, in general, realize this, and are beginning to react. The sentiment is: "Last night Islamics had a chance to speak up for Paul Johnson, but today it’s too late."

Aris, you are a cunt.

There--now you can feel better that you've been called every name in the book. : ) !


Posted by: ex-lib || 06/26/2004 12:08 Comments || Top||

#45  And what about those billion of Muslims aforementioned that couldn't care about whether Al-Qaeda or the USA are victorious, because they'd be living under a Muslim secular dictatorship (such as most Muslim dictatorships are) one way or another?

What about those that didn't already support him full-heartedly because they didn't know if he'll go and do evil stupid things such as for examples label all Islam an enemy or declare crusades or not? What about the people who didn't know whether he'll authorize torture or not, whether he'll respect human rights or not, whether he'll keep the values of Western civilisation or not, and so their support for Bush could only be CONDITIONAL, because they would NEVER support any politician unconditionally?

Don't those people matter at all?

Can you win the war without the support of the secular muslims that had little to no reason to fully trust a right-winger Texan Christian who speaks about crusades, and many supporters of whom hate Islam as a whole?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 12:11 Comments || Top||

#46  Ah, so much stupidity, so little time ... so let's just examine the faulty premise upon which Aris' entire perspective is based:

The only thing you can strive for is to enforce secularism.

Put down the crack pipe and back slowly away because this is simply, completely, and undeniably wrong. You cannot "enforce secularism" on Islamic society because they do not recognize the superiority of secular law to sharia and associated edicts from their local snake charmers.

In a secular western society Islam can only exist in a transient state because it demands of its adherents that they actively transform everything around them according to the model of Islamic perfection. First and foremost this means destroying secular governance and replacing it with a model drawn from Islamic tradition. Thus, it's no more possible for modern secular society to peacefully coexist with Islam than it was for the Jews to peacefully coexist with the Nazis (and Islam bears more than a passing resemblance to German National Socialism).
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 12:14 Comments || Top||

#47  AND THE WINNER IS . . . Canaveral Dan:

" If the Muslim community is seen as proactive in the weeding out of the radical elements in their midst, then the American people would see them as allies. Where are the patriotic young Muslims lining up to join the Armed Forces and Intelligence services to fight radical Islam?"


Aris, I liked your post #40 until you featured Iraq as "a secular Muslim regime whose ties to terrorism were the most peripheral of them all." That's just stupid. The war aside, that's just stupid. If you're going to use Iraq as some "wonderful" example of exemplary superiority of admirable secularism, that's just stupid. You've come to the wrong discussion board, or are seriously undereducated about the subject.

I think Aris has had enough attention today.


Posted by: ex-lib || 06/26/2004 12:18 Comments || Top||

#48  Answer abroad: take out the Imams and Mullahs spreading the venom. Do it publicly and violently, just as Israel has taken out the heads of Hamas. We need wetwork ops again
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 12:18 Comments || Top||

#49  Katsaris, you are going to force me to call you the ultimate term of abuse: f*cking cunt.

To answer your own stupid "arguments," are the liberated Afghans and Iraqis still living under a Muslim dictatorship?
Hell, no!
Are they glad to have been liberated? Hell, yes.
And both Iraqis and Afghans were far from indifferent about it even before their liberation; they were miserable and wanted to be freed from bondage to the Taliban and Saddam.

As for all those things you accuse President Bush of being for,
he has come out publicly against all those things and made it clear that the United States doesn't do that and never will!
(Yet you still believe the lies you read about him in the Leftist European press!)
And there's lots of evidence to indicate that Bush is beginning to be admired and respected throughout the Middle East already as the "Liberator" and the "Avenger of the Bones."
If we Bushies hate Islam as a conceptual religion, I think it's safe to say that we have our reasons.
Would you be "multi-culti" if Al Queda had smashed planes into the Parthenon, destroying it and slaughtering 3,000 Greeks who were minding their own business in peacetime?
Posted by: Jen || 06/26/2004 12:19 Comments || Top||

#50  Whoa, ease up on the name calling! If Aris leaves, then all we're left with is...antiwar, and the NMM goofball.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 12:20 Comments || Top||

#51  How do you enforce secularism, exactly, when the leadership of over one billion people on the planet is opposed to it,

Oh, what utter utter bull. Pakistan is secular. Turkey is secular. Egypt is secular. Who exactly are the "leadership of over one billion people"? Iran and Sudan and the Taliban?

Get your facts straight.

And Jen, and ex-lib, both of you, we had already determined that Crawford's comment already sufficed to call me "cunt", so really your comments are only helping showing the level of discourse and maturity you advocate in Rantburg.

and clearly list secularism as an "enemy" of everything they hold to, and the reason for the war in the first place?

Osama Bin Laden isn't the leader of over one billion people, so get your facts straight first and come to me later.


Equating Nero's attitude and actions against the Christians with Republicans?

No, I equated the Christians with the Republicans. But ofcourse you are too much of a moron to understand that.

Besides, Nero was a secularist.

The state religion was emperor-worship.

Jen> Once again, you hijacked the thread

Yeah, I put a gun at your heads and forced you to fly it into a skycrape. The thread *wasn't* about Paul Johnson's community at the point when I entered it -- the thread was ALREADY about the forced conversion of more than a billion muslims, and that's the thread I continued.

You may be so stupid that you believe a thread is determined by its title rather than by its content. Why don't you look at the comments preceding my own, rather than just assume that it was I who gave the thread it's new direction?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 12:23 Comments || Top||

#52  The war aside, that's just stupid. If you're going to use Iraq as some "wonderful" example of exemplary superiority of admirable secularism,

I didn't. I only used Iraq as a wonderful example of a country that was borderline *neutral* to the conflict, with only peripheral ties to Islamic terrorism.

There's more than one conflicts in this, and you can't take out all the fascisms in the world in one go.

Iraq was horrible to its citizens, but it was almost neutral in the war between West and Islamofascism. It lent support to the Palestinians, but then again it also lent support to the MEK who were secularists that opposed the mullahs of Iran.

But because you could only see countries as being "either with you or against you", you are almost left at the point where you see every other secular Muslim degree in the region as also being enemies.

That's as stupid as you can get.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 12:30 Comments || Top||

#53  Katsaris, it was about the story until you launched in with your "religious fascism" rant--as usual, totally hijacking the thread to argue the contrarian side, no matter what the thread's about.
We Americans are mad that one of our citizens was brutally beheaded by, once again, Islamists.
And Pakistan is NOT secular! Not even close.
It's an Islamic republic.
In fact, it was formed as a nation to be Islamic because they wanted to be "free" of secular India.
The only thing close to a secular nation with a Muslim majority is Turkey and it's "iffy."
And worshipping the Roman emperor as a god wasn't pervasive throughout the whole 500 years of the Roman Empire, but only instituted by a few Caesars like Nero and Caligula.
And you're still a c--t (and believe you me, I have quite an adequate vocabulary, but if the shoe fits...)
Posted by: Jen || 06/26/2004 12:32 Comments || Top||

#54  AND THE NEXT WINNER IS . . . Jen:

" Would you be "multi-culti" if Al Queda had smashed planes into the Parthenon, destroying it and slaughtering 3,000 Greeks who were minding their own business in peacetime?"

You gotta comment on that Aris.

AND THE THIRD WINNER IS . . . a real favorite . . . AzCat! : (emphasis added)

"You cannot "enforce secularism" on Islamic society because they do not recognize the superiority of secular law to sharia and associated edicts from their local snake charmers. In a secular western society Islam can only exist in a transient state because it demands of its adherents that they actively transform everything around them according to the model of Islamic perfection. First and foremost this means destroying secular governance and replacing it with a model drawn from Islamic tradition. Thus, it's no more possible for modern secular society to peacefully coexist with Islam than it was for the Jews to peacefully coexist with the Nazis (and Islam bears more than a passing resemblance to German National Socialism).

Aris? We're waiting.

Aris, just because a lot of people in the Islamic world don't know WTF is going on, doesn't mean we can just sit back (which we would rather do, believe me--this conflict is a total pain). But I would also challenge you to think about the truth--that more know what's going on than you would like to think.

Hang in there, Aris.

You cunt. : )

Posted by: ex-lib || 06/26/2004 12:32 Comments || Top||

#55  Thanks for everything, ex-lib!
And you are so right: we would rather sit back and this war is a total pain. I hate it.
Many is the day that I've wished I could wake up and it be 9/10/01 again.
Posted by: Jen || 06/26/2004 12:34 Comments || Top||

#56  So Aris, seriously, did we give up Western Civ when Arthur Harris and Cutis Lemay fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo respectively?

I think that when you strip away the hyperbole, most people here are calling for decisive action against the Islamists now, so we don't have to slaughter tens of millions later.

You keep pointing out that you could lose this war. I agree with you. I think that if we did lose this war, it would result in the death of hundreds of millions if not billions simply because the Islamists wouldn't bother to maintain the level of transportation, agriculture, and medical infrastructure that keeps six billion people alive today. World-wide famine? Inshallah. How many deaths would you be willing to tolerate to prevent that?

A very smart person said (I don't want to reveal his name since the remarks weren't made in an open forum) in regards to Central America, "80% of the people just want to live their lives. 15% are fence sitters and will follow whoever is strongest. 5% are marxist fanatics and simply have to be killed." I'm guessing that the numbers are somewhat skewed in the Middle East. They might be 50%, 40%, 10%. To get to the 10%, I have to kill most of the 40% and a lot of the 50% are going to get caught in the crossfire.

Every modern confict begins with a series of tenuous steps. Feints and jabs proceed the heavy hitting and grappling. Finally, someone has to get out the lead pipe and stave in the skull of the other guy. I'd rather just sucker punch the Islamists now and end this damn thing. I have no faith that's going to happen, but I wish it would. "Punch them. Don't tickle them." Guderian understood that. So did Lemay, Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan. Most people here at Rantburg understand that intuitively, if not intellectually.
Posted by: 11A5S || 06/26/2004 12:36 Comments || Top||

#57  To answer your own stupid "arguments," are the liberated Afghans and Iraqis still living under a Muslim dictatorship?

Iraqis never lived under an Islamist dictatorship. And neither Iraqis nor Afghanis are yet living in a democracy, that's for sure, they're living in an anarchy. And they might never live in a democracy.

And for all those things you accuse President Bush of being for,

I didn't accuse him of being for such things. Once again you are too stupid, Jen, to actually read my words.

he has come out publicly against all those things and made it clear that the United States doesn't do that and never will!

And people that didn't already trust him, had a reason to trust him because....?

Because he has a ton of supporters that want him to advocate the forced convertions of Muslims into Christianity or Hinduism or Zoroastrianism. Yeah, you are making Bush's job *tons* easier in convincing the Islamic world that America doesn't see the whole of Islam as its enemy.

But then again Bush didn't make the job any easier either when he chose Iraq to attack, whose connection to terrorism was as I said flimsy at best.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 12:40 Comments || Top||

#58  ex-lib> You gotta comment on that Aris.

I would comment "Yes", but then ofcourse you would say "No you wouldn't be, you are just saying that because it hasn't happened yet." That's the problem with discussing hypotheticals isn't it?

So, *yes* I would still advocate freedom of religion if 3000 Greeks had lost their lives in an act of Islamic terrorism.

And ofcourse, quite predictably you won't accept that response as true.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 12:46 Comments || Top||

#59  I believe it, I just think it's naive
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 12:47 Comments || Top||

#60  Frank G> As you wish. But even if you are right, I'm not sure that using the trauma of mass murder as the reason for holding a belief, makes the arguments for that belief stronger.

So Aris, seriously, did we give up Western Civ when Arthur Harris and Cutis Lemay fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo respectively?

Those, horrible as they were, were *momentary*. Force-converting a billion people is more akin to reinstituting slavery. You'll have to keep on doing it for a century for such conversions to last, at which point there won't be much of a western civilisation left.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 12:55 Comments || Top||

#61  Force-converting a billion people is more akin to reinstituting slavery. You'll have to keep on doing it for a century for such conversions to last, at which point there won't be much of a western civilisation left.

Good point. Better a short sharp application of force that once and for all eliminates the problem than a long and protracted war.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 12:59 Comments || Top||

#62  Forced conversions don't work, and I think the Islamists will find that out soon enough. Back to Johnson and the backlash: 'Americans first, muslims second' would stop all backlash. 'Muslims first' and you get what you get, and whining will only make it worse
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 13:00 Comments || Top||

#63  AzCat> And once you have a culture that accepts global genocide (if I'm reading your words correctly), how would you stop this policy from continuing?

No, genocide is definitely not better from forced convertions.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 13:04 Comments || Top||

#64  rex: Don't buy the Muslim propaganda. Christianity is the world's fastest-growing religion, esp. in the developing world.
Posted by: someone || 06/26/2004 13:07 Comments || Top||

#65  And once you have a culture that accepts global genocide (if I'm reading your words correctly), how would you stop this policy from continuing?

You mean like supporting the destruction of the Jewish people? We haven't reached this point yet, Islam has.

Iraqis never lived under an Islamist dictatorship

You're right about that. Saddam never gave a damn for Islam, he was just a plain out dictator. The worst since Stalin died, and now he's powerless. And if you argue it was a secular government that Saddam headed, then Jen's juevenile remarks about you being a "cunt" are true.

Posted by: Charles || 06/26/2004 13:13 Comments || Top||

#66  Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world

Evangelical Christianity growing rapidly in many parts of the southern hemisphere, even where Muslims are resorting to legal and illegal violence against them. And the BJP in India has a pretty large consituency too.

I'd rather have a model in which the government is secular and individuals are free to pursue whatever religion they like -- so long as they stop short of attempting to impose it on others by force or by highjacking the laws (and using the force of the state).

I sure as hell won't accept Islam growing that way.
Posted by: too true || 06/26/2004 13:14 Comments || Top||

#67  Things would be going a lot differently in these Muslim areas of the US if there had been voices of real patriotism after 9/11. Even now they can't even talk the talk: everything they say is in the words of victimization.
Posted by: someone || 06/26/2004 13:14 Comments || Top||

#68  That's it Aris.

I was joking with you-- : ) that's a joke sign (smiley face)--when I called you a cunt. You take yourself too seriously, and I thought you could handle it, but you can't. Jen is calling you a cunt as an insult.

But you have insulted me, so I'm going to say this and say nothing more to you on Rantburg today. I don't care what you say or do from here on out--I leave you to your own devices, and to the conversations of the others. Your psychology is like a basketball, and Rantburg is the backboard you bounce it off of. I'm not going to play anymore.

So here's the last of it:

Nero was the supreme secularist--demanding worship of himself as the secular ruler of Rome--not unlike Sadaam did.

More moslems than Bin Laden consider secularism the enemy of everything they hold to. Read up on it. You have plenty of opportunity here every day.

Phil B had said: "If your a mOOslim you are brain washed. You're an idiot and you belong to a Demonic cult that needs to be destroyed." To which you responded: "I'm sure that Nero may well have said the same thing about the Christians (that they belonged ot a Demonic cult that needs to be destroyed). And I can say the same about the Republicans (that they belong to a Demonic cult that needs to be destroyed) . . ." You were NOT in fact equating the Christians with Republicans, as you claim in #51-- you were using the condemnation of Christians by Nero to be as bad and the same as Americans condemning Islamic terrorists. And then you went on to condemn Republicans for actually being what you said Nero said about the Christians, and what you said Americans say about the Islamic terrorists. I am NOT, as you said, "too much of a moron to understand." I think you can't keep what you're saying straight.

You say about Iraq: "I only used Iraq as a wonderful example of a country that was borderline *neutral* to the conflict, with only peripheral ties to Islamic terrorism . . . almost neutral in the war between West and Islamofascism." On the surface, Aris. On the surface. Your adherence secularism as the savior of mankind is blinding you to the truth. To my question: "How do you enforce secularism, exactly, when the leadership of over one billion people on the planet is opposed to it?" you replied: "Oh, what utter utter bull. Pakistan is secular. Turkey is secular. Egypt is secular." Yes Aris. They are. But only to a point. Hopefully they can continue to enforce and expand their present forms of government. (But radical Islam is bubbling up all around them as you must know).


BTW Aris: I don't see all moslems as enemies. That has been clear in every single one of my posts today. But I think you see all Republicans as enemies, according to your own words, and I won't even get into the Christian thing with you.

Aris, you like to argue.

And you have an undying religious faith in secularism, supporting Western civilization only inasmuch as it serves your personal secular fundamentalist religion.

My interest today in responding to the sometimes worthwhile posts of Aris Katsaris is concluded.

Posted by: ex-lib || 06/26/2004 13:17 Comments || Top||

#69  Charles> And if you argue it was a secular government that Saddam headed, then Jen's juevenile remarks about you being a "cunt" are true.

Do you know the meaning of secular?

Saddam headed a secular dictatorship. If you don't accept that, then your problem's not with me, it's with Reality. Take it up with her.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 13:20 Comments || Top||

#70  Saddam used Islam whenever it was useful and convenient.

By the way, Paul Johnson's memorial service is going on right now. His body hasn't been recovered from Saudi. Whack an Imam for Paul today!
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 13:29 Comments || Top||

#71  ex-lib> I don't have "undying religious faith in secularism". There are tons and tons of secular dictatorships that are bitter enemies to the West.

They just don't have anything to do with the war against Islamofascism.

Once again -- see the pathology of the stupid "you are either with us or against us"? As if there are no degrees of hostility, as if there are no countries that may be against you in *that* struggle, but not necessarily against you in *this* struggle?

Yes, secular Iraq was an enemy to democracy and freedom. So is secular Belarus. And attacking Iraq wasn't significantly more intelligent in the war against Islamofascism than attacking Belarus would have been.

Because both these countries were borderline *neutral* in this conflict.

And then you went on to condemn Republicans for actually being what you said Nero said about the Christians,

Belonging to a demonic cult that needs to be destroyed?

I don't believe in demons.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 13:31 Comments || Top||

#72  see the pathology of the stupid "you are either with us or against us"?

No. Primarily because the context was terrorism, not some other "struggle".
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 13:39 Comments || Top||

#73  Paul Johnson was a great guy. He will be missed. His death is a wake-up call to us all.
Posted by: ex-lib || 06/26/2004 13:41 Comments || Top||

#74  wetwork ops on the ulema--gawd-that so kewl--it rivals blitzkreig for a shortform expression of a winning strategy--as the monkees said--i'm a believer
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI || 06/26/2004 13:51 Comments || Top||

#75  And once you have a culture that accepts global genocide (if I'm reading your words correctly), how would you stop this policy from continuing?

I accept that Islam is forcing us to choose between the survival of western civilization and their own. Muslims have forced upon us all a choice none of us want to make, I've merely chosen my own civilization over the one they would impose upon me. It's only a matter of time, and not much time at that, until Muslims possess the ability to follow through on their insane rants and then we're all going to have to choose one side or the other with no equivocation and no qualifications. I wonder, which side will you be on then?

The fact is that Islam can stop this war any time it wishes but throughout fourteen centuries of the world's experience with Islam the war has raged on unabated. It's ironic in the extreme that you're fond of citing to historical precedent yet this most simple and unarguable truism utterly escapes you: there's nothing in the history of Islam to suggest that they will stop this war short of their total victory. Nothing. Islam has never, nor will it ever, retreat from its goal of global domination.

The salient difference between my perspective on this and that of Islam is that should Islam choose to stop the war, I would be happy to allow them to continue the longstanding Islamic tradition of wading through their sandboxes in rivers of their own blood without external interference. However should western civilzation eschew fighting this war, Islam will demand our complete and total submission to their will as a precondition to the cessation of hostilities. Thus by definition I'm far more moderate than is Islam.

Sadly, Islam is speeding towards the crossroads at which we all will be forced to make the ultimate decision between "us" and "them". Unlike "them" I find no joy in the decision and seek no glory in the slaughter that is about to unfold. But as dark, tragic, and terrible as the days Islam is forcing upon us will be, humanity will emerge stronger and more resolute once the Islamic cancer has burned from our collective body.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 14:01 Comments || Top||

#76  I don't believe in demons.
This is such a long thread that to give my personal reactions - which I'm *sure* everyone *wants* to hear - would take too long, so I'm just going to hit that.

Aris, I do believe in demons. I look around and I see what man is capable of. At the moment, what I see is that the worst traits of humanity are the ones that these Islamic terrorists are personifying, and that frightens me. Monsters may not exist, but evil surely does - and while we can all fall prey to it, right now those "men" are the closest thing to demons I can find.

I forget who said that there is no greater evil than that which goes in the guise of good, and while I suppose you *could* apply that to the US, and no doubt a lot of people do, the terrorists are the ones claiming they're fighting for Allah, for their god, for piety and virtue and all of that. Personally, I think theirs are the more grandiose claims, and all the more chilling because of it.
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/26/2004 14:03 Comments || Top||

#77  [Radical] Muslims are nothing but Nazis with a turban."

Which is something I've been saying here for some time. This may be the one single critical distinction that is required to properly polarize the world community, including moderate Muslims, against militant Islam.

#5 If you radicalise the moderates you will find yourself fighting an army 100 times as big.

Having an uneducated, racist backlash against Islam in general and muslims as an undifferentiated whole helps the Islamofascists, it doesn't help us.


This may not be as bad as it sounds. If the moderates refuse to assist in decontaminating Islam, then they need to be given the opportunity to forever link themselves to the real enemy.

#16 The trick is to drive a wedge between them and the Islamofascists and shunt them onto a path where they are turning them in and regarding them as enemies, instead of leaders.

That "wedge" may turn out to be simple death. If moderate Islam does not begin martyring itself in the effort to pursuade its radical component away from militancy, then death is the only alternative.

#19 Sooo.....how do you propose to drive a wedge between Islamofascists and regular Muslims that "tacitly agree" with those evil Islamofascists? Money? Appeasement? Sex on demand? Sounds like a losing proposition to me.

I agree, Bomb-a-rama, this is why I mention "death" as a functional wedge.

#22 And you should care very much what religion is picked, since you as an atheist, will be among the first to be converted into it. You can't force-convert people into a religion without changing the whole of society to service *exclusively* that religion.

Which is why the notion of "forced conversion" always has been and always shall be idiotic at best.

#24 You think that people becoming radicalized are something that influences only them? It doesn't turn them into victims that your sarcastic "boo-hoo-hoo" should apply, it turns them into *enemies*.

Sadly, this may be required in order to sort out our targeting priorities. Enemies of secularism are the avowed enemies of the West and we cannot kill them fast enough.

#25 So, let me try to rephrase it: "Are you for flying airplanes into buildings, or are you against it?"

Bingo, Raphael.

#27 If the moderates within the religion/culture want to save it perhaps they should stand up and prove the radicals do no represent them. OTherwise they take the risks alongside the radicals.

Islamoids started this war, and uprooting the culture (which is entwined with Islam 100%) may very well be the only way to end it. So be it.


Well said, Yank. I've been saying the same thing for some time now. Where are the moderate Muslims eager to gloriously martyr themselves attempting to persuade Islamists away from terrorist jihad in the regions of militant Islam?

#29 Such people are *neutral*. They just don't give a damn about the West. They are *neutral*, they only want to live out their lives. They have nothing to lose irregardless of which side wins the conflict.

Sadly, a lack of world view may well no longer serve as adequate excuse for so-called "neutrality." Like Nazism, there really cannot be any sort of neutral stance regarding jihadist terrorism.

#33 If the Muslim community is seen as proactive in the weeding out of the radical elements in their midst than the American people would see them as allies. Where are the patriotic young Muslims lining up to join the Armed Forces and Intelligence services to fight radical Islam?

There you have it, Canaveral Dan. Where are the valiant defenders of their "peaceful" religion? They had better show up to the party soon or the doorman will receive instructions that they shall all be turned away at the gate.

#37 The problem is that we are quickly coming up on one indisputable, inescapable conclusion - one third of the world's population has gone renegade, and their stated belief towards the rest is to either enslave them or kill them - and from what I'm seeing, there's a great many Muslims who have no problems with either option. Even the media is having a tougher and tougher time ignoring the obvious, and all it will take is a few more spectacular atrocities in the rest of the world - or one good one here - and all the RoP stories in the world will not save the Muslims who remain silent.

This is exactly why I have been forced to anticipate possible nuclear scenarios as well, Mike Kozlowski. All opponents to secularism represent candidates for terrorism. Very soon, I may be forced to accept this one simple notion as a fact.

#40 Until such time as you start seeing the neutrals, you'll keep on seeing the whole world as against you. In reality, most of that one third of the world simply does not give a damn.

And it is their neutrality about the value of secularism that may well damn them. Willing acceptance of elements that seek to destroy secularism, and by extension the West, may have outlived their useful lifespan on this earth.

#44 How do you do that? How do you enforce secularism, exactly, when the leadership of over one billion people on the planet is opposed to it, and clearly list secularism as an "enemy" of everything they hold to, and the reason for the war in the first place? There is no reason to think for a moment that they would willingly submit to secularism, which they consider a competing religion/culture.

Secularism is "enforced" by declaring elected representation and democracy basic human rights and overthrowing any and all governments opposed to such a notion.

Agreed, Canaveral Dan is the winner.

Canaveral Dan's simple question must continue to resonate within the skulls of moderate Muslims until they purchase a clue. Their entire religion's future hinges upon it.

#46 How do you do that? How do you enforce secularism, exactly, when the leadership of over one billion people on the planet is opposed to it, and clearly list secularism as an "enemy" of everything they hold to, and the reason for the war in the first place? There is no reason to think for a moment that they would willingly submit to secularism, which they consider a competing religion/culture.

By forcefully eliminating those who advocate the destruction of secularism. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that there is no other choice in the matter.

#51 And Jen, and ex-lib, both of you, we had already determined that Crawford's comment already sufficed to call me "cunt", so really your comments are only helping showing the level of discourse and maturity you advocate in Rantburg.

While ex-lib may have been jesting, others were not and I could not agree with you on this one point any more than I have already, Aris. Kindergarten name-calling conveys all the class and sophistication of a thug.

#52 I didn't. I only used Iraq as a wonderful example of a country that was borderline *neutral* to the conflict, with only peripheral ties to Islamic terrorism.

Iraq was not "borderline *neutral*" to terrorism. They actively promoted the Intifada and thereby sealed their doom. The stated reasons for going into Iraq were all wrong, but its liberation was a moral obligation. I feel that Iran or North Korea were higher priorities, but the cards did not fall that way. In the long run, quelling terror's support in the Middle East may well prove to be a linchpin in dismantling militant Islam so I have always been obliged to support our presence in Iraq.

#56 I think that if we did lose this war, it would result in the death of hundreds of millions if not billions simply because the Islamists wouldn't bother to maintain the level of transportation, agriculture, and medical infrastructure that keeps six billion people alive today. World-wide famine? Inshallah. How many deaths would you be willing to tolerate to prevent that?

This is one of the only other points on a par with Canaveral Dan's observation, 11A5S. Theocratic Islam represents global cultural genocide and mass murder through technological regression. Neither are acceptable, and I will sooner advocate nuclear war against Islam than countenance such a return to savagery.

#65 And once you have a culture that accepts global genocide (if I'm reading your words correctly), how would you stop this policy from continuing?

You mean like supporting the destruction of the Jewish people? We haven't reached this point yet, Islam has.

Excellent point, AzCat. This pretty well sums things up.

#76 Personally, I think theirs are the more grandiose claims, and all the more chilling because of it.

Agree, The Doctor. The level of self-delusion that Islam aspires to makes possible any atrocity imaginable. This is its own disproof and is precisely what must be disavowed or such fanaticism will indict Islam as a whole.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 14:56 Comments || Top||

#78  I have to get out of here, but before I leave, I do want to say to Aris Katsaris thanks for fighting the good fight. Without your penetrating insight Rantburg would be such a dull place. You have forced many people and regulars to think and think hard...everyone is better for this. So thank you.

I pretty much agree with Zenster, above, but then I usually do. My disagreement is with the idea that there is even a Nuclear option to be played. I don't see how it can be done w/o poisoning the planet and us in the bargain.

If the Nuclear option is off the table, then what? I recognize that it is not as easy to kill people as many here think. People die hard. The will to live is fierce and a true death wound is a difficult proposition.

But it is doable. Difficult, but it can be done...but in sufficient numbers? Generally, 8 to 10% of the warring population must be killed before the other side throws in the towel and surrenders, (see the US Civil War, WWI & II and other conflicts).

So this becomes a problem of numbers. At least a billion Muslims ='s 100 million dead. This is difficult by conventional means, but again with sufficient will, doable. However, let's through out the Asian Muslims, (though I acknowledge that the Muslims in Souther Thailand are becoming a real concern), and maybe we are down to 300 million Muslims across the Middle East.

Okay, that is clearly more manageable. We are talking 30 million deaths...not an easy task, but doable in a Total War. Here Nazi Germany may form a good example...it was not necessary or even desirable to kill all Germans, and we didn't. A contrary example would be Chechnya...God knows the Russians have been going at it a while without much success. In light of the Russian experience it may be necessary to well up the 10% number.

Given the above, I am not comfortable with killing even the minimum 30 million living and breathing human beings, though I recognize that it may be necessary.

Therefore, using the Muslim example of the World Trade Center as a Symbol, maybe it is time to start swapping Symbols. First the Ka’ba in Mecca, this need not entail the loss of much life at all but should get the Muslim’s attention. Second, the Mosque in Medina and lastly, the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

If this doesn’t instill a certain reflective introspection with Dar a Islam, then let the killing begin.

(Oh, and Aris, you are not a Cunt...lol)

Best Wishes,

Posted by: Traveller || 06/26/2004 16:11 Comments || Top||

#79  So Aris, wheres that secular Islamic government example we gotta look at? I'll just point out here that the Quran doesnt allow for secular governments and Islam to exist side by side. The ONLY way to ENFORCE SECULARISM is to kill enough people to make THEM realize that they will never ever gain control over the world or many other countries. Destroy their delusions of grandeur and rewrite their religion. THATS the only way you can enforce secularism on a religion. You discarded the idea nuking a billion people. Fine, but note that if even 1% of that population remains comitted to the goal of wiping out western civilization and establishing a sharia/islamic type rule over the entire world thats 10 million people who you cannot reason with and eventually either have to be killed or have their delusions removed. So how do you provide to remove their delusions? Provide group therapy? Appeasement? Well that never works in the end. Appeasement is little better than giving in to extortionists. The more you give the more the extorters want to take. You ask why should 1 billion people think about changing their religion. I say to you why should the rest of the damn world think about changing THEIR beliefs to appease the 1 billion?

Oh and one last thing Aris, you're right about us Americans being stark raving mad in one sense. We'd rather destroy the world than be enslaved by anyone or any religion. So yes death is better slavery. Go ahead and call us insane anyway we don't much care, for the rest of the world, those who know just how much liberty is worth are those who have tasted the tyranny of societies and relgions and found it little better than slavery. So go ahead and call us Americans idiots and crazy. Our crazy idea has been around for almost 230 years and its still going strong.
Posted by: Valentine || 06/26/2004 21:54 Comments || Top||

#80  So go ahead and call us Americans idiots and crazy.

Personally I've always found it rather entertaining that persons from insular inbred societies persist in calling Americans crazy. We are the rest of the world because we're almost completely a nation of immigrants.

Yep, America's a horrible place, that's why the world continues to clamor to find a way in.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 22:06 Comments || Top||

#81  The big populations killers are starvation, exposure (thirst in a dessert env) and disease. The Arabs are extremely vulnerable on all three accounts.
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 22:17 Comments || Top||

#82  Good observations, #81, but...you need to expand on on your comments... ie. how can the West take advantage of these 3 vulnerabilities? Are you suggesting we hold back foreign aid when these eventualities occur or what???
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 22:22 Comments || Top||

#83  crazy - I'll answer to, unless under subpoena;
Idiot? - heh heh don't think so....
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 22:23 Comments || Top||

#84  Valentine> So Aris, wheres that secular Islamic government example we gotta look at?

Never heard of Turkey? Or of Albania for that matter?

And as a sidenote, better to use the word Muslim when we mean Muslim because "Islamic" is too often confused with the word and meaning of "Islamist" or even "Islamofascist".

I'll just point out here that the Quran doesnt allow for secular governments and Islam to exist side by side.

And the Hebrew Scriptures don't tolerate adulterers (or witches) to live, but nonetheless I'm pretty sure that in modern-day Israel, adulterers aren't stoned to death. Not by the Israelis anyway.

So how do you provide to remove their delusions?

I've detailed my own preferred War on Terror strategy way too often to bother to repeat again in full. But the main point is that it would see Syria and Iran as the main foes to be dealt with rather than Saddam Hussein, and it'd use the defeat of Syria as a lever of solving once and for all the Palestinian homeland issue. From there it'd proceed depending on how it went that far.

As for the rest of your post, it's sheer babble, accusing me of saying things I never said.

"you're right about us Americans being stark raving mad"

I never said that. I think I only accused the Bush administration of utter insanity.

"I say to you why should the rest of the damn world think about changing THEIR beliefs to appease the 1 billion? "

I never said that either.

But by all means, go on assuming stuff about my claims.

Yep, America's a horrible place, that's why the world continues to clamor to find a way in.

Europe probably has even more immigrants, but people in this forum never see that a sign of Europe being not so horrible a place.

And as a sidenote, I never said, nor do I believe, that America was horrible, either. That's yet again one of your erroneous assumptions made while trying to pigeonhole me into the anti-American category.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 22:33 Comments || Top||

#85  And as a sidenote, better to use the word Muslim when we mean Muslim because "Islamic" is too often confused with the word and meaning of "Islamist" or even "Islamofascist".

LOL - as if there were a difference.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 22:55 Comments || Top||

#86  Ofcourse YOU wouldn't care, since ofcourse YOU don't think there's any chance whatsoever we might lose the war. Those of us lacking your religious conviction in our invincibility are very much interested in whether we'll be in war with a few tens thousands or with a billion. We very much care about how many are our enemies, and how many are our allies.

It has nothing to do with losing the war, Aris. It has everything to do with Muslims crying like spoiled little children over the teensiest little slight, as if they are entitled to the kid glove treatment, while "infidels" of every other religious stripe suffer similar indignities without managing to soil their underwear to a similar excessive degree.

It doesn't turn them into victims that your sarcastic "boo-hoo-hoo" should apply, it turns them into *enemies*.

Over stupid little things that members of other religions often times shrug off? Please. If these types can't get over themselves, well, that's too damn bad. Their radicalized compatriots are engaging in barbarism, and few of these supposed "moderates" are speaking up loudly and vigorously against it. That silence, Aris, is what is causing this backlash, however undeserved you might think it is.

In which case weep, quite non-sarcastically, for us.

Actually, I'm weeping for you, because instead of seeing Muslim hypersensitivity for the pile of crap that it is and admonishing such childish behavior, all you're worried about is possibly creating more enemies.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/26/2004 23:25 Comments || Top||

#87  If this conflict does go to total war with the remaining terrorist states, we can inflict far too much damage on them without nukes for them to have a chance at winning. If it's total war, that means we'll start hitting their complete infrastucture. Bridges, dams, factories, powr plants, ports, trains, airports, etc. If we want to get truly mean, we can blockade their ports, sinking any shipping attempting to reach them as well as destroying any convoys trying to come in. Once that's done, they'll be hard pressed to carry their war to us, given they have to reach our shores by ship or plane while their nations begin to starve and sit in the dark. They simply don't have the logistics to carry out more than irritant attacks on us if we smash their infrastructure to rubble.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 06/26/2004 23:42 Comments || Top||

#88  AzCat> The only reason you don't see the difference, is because you are deaf, dumb and blind. And willfully so.

Bomb-a-rama> It is childish. Religious fanaticism is always childish. Nazism was also childish.

"Admonish it" as childish all you want, if you think "admonishing it" will make a difference. But if we don't at the same time worry about whether we are making enemies or friends, then we're done for.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/26/2004 23:46 Comments || Top||

#89  And I've said it before Aris, how do you plan on getting to Syria and Iran? You cant land forces in Syria without going through either Turkey or Iraq. Especially with a Turkey that has proven itself to be inimical to the US? Turkey won't let itself be embroiled in a war with Syria without serious civilian consequences. If you thought Iraq riled the population hitting Syria THROUGH Turkey and exposing it to further attacks from terrorists or even outright military forces would send them pushing to kick us out ASAP. As for a secular government, that isn't exactly true, the current government of Turkey has been Islamic (been that way for quite a while). Its the MILITARY thats secular and they are the ones that safeguard the country from an ISLAMIC government taking over and instituing radical laws like those we see in Sharia (hint hint here Aris). And again if Turkey is the best example we can hope for from Islam that is indeed a sad goal to achieve and quite possibly inherently bigoted as you assume these people can't possibly achieve much more.

I do love how you change the topic though of my questions And the Hebrew Scriptures don't tolerate adulterers (or witches) to live, but nonetheless I'm pretty sure that in modern-day Israel, adulterers aren't stoned to death. Not by the Israelis anyway. No points given for not answering the question Aris, namely where is that valid example of secular government. I still raise the question of how you want to enforce secularism in a religion as fanatic as islam seems to be. You say hitting Syria and Iran will solve it, yet we got Saudi Arabia funding a lot of these current interpretations, Iran and Syria being a safe haven for the terrorists to carry out training, Indonesia and Malaysia preaching from their very governments that Christians and any other minorities be sidelined. You have islamic terror in virtually every country from Africa to Thailand to the US and Canada and even South America to an extent now. EXACTLY HOW IS THIS A NOT A PROBLEM WHEN THE REST OF THE MEMBERS OF THE RELIGION SHOW APATHY TO THESE EXTREMISTS?!?!

You've pointed out to us how we shouldn't be making members of islam hate us, so I've pointed out why they do hate us, namely that they expect Islam to take over the world and have a world under an Islamic government. You believed that in order to get the world to like us we should be paying more attention to appeasing their wants or needs. Well thats one of their needs, that we turn ourselves over to their rule and their advice. And I asked you a simple question on that too which you in turn just merely stated that you never said it, I really dont care whether or not you said it, I just wanted an answer to the question "Why should the rest of the world change their beliefs to appease 1 billiom members of Islam?" A simple question that you can answer by saying "They shouldn't" or "They should because...(whatever)". Aris simply put the logic that you put forward in this thread today is quite flawed. You worry about making enemies of a people that are neutral towards fascism and fanaticism, yet you don't seem to worry about stamping it out.


One last thing. When you accuse the Bush Administration of insanity you also accuse US americans of it too. You see Aris we don't just simply vote to get a new president in office, but if he ever thought he was overstepping his bounds he'd be impeached and kicked out so fast your head would spin. It's the american's people's choice to keep Bush and his admin in office just as it will be to decide whether or not to keep him in Novemeber.
Posted by: Valentine || 06/27/2004 0:29 Comments || Top||

#90  The only reason you don't see the difference, is because you are deaf, dumb and blind. And willfully so.

I neither see nor hear differences that do not exist Aris. Your artificial distinctions are nothing more than a matter of degree and the objects of them would tell you that there is only one Islam.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/27/2004 0:36 Comments || Top||

#91  But if we don't at the same time worry about whether we are making enemies or friends, then we're done for.

What's this "we" stuff? YOU might worry about it, but I don't. We are going to protect our friends and kill our enemies, simple as that. If more people want to be enemies of the U.S., then it's not our problem when more of them get mowed down.

All these backlash incidents aside, "moderate" Muslims are going to have to make a choice; they need to wash their hands completely of Islamofascist clerics and their toxic notions (and lose the Jew-hating crap), or they are going to end up being tarred with the Islamofascist label for better or worse (VERY likely worse). There's no middle ground here where they can say, "we reject the words of so-and-so, but..." There's no "but" here.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/27/2004 5:32 Comments || Top||

#92  AzCat> If you don't see a difference between this and that, then you have some *really* big issues.

Bomb-a-rama> We are going to protect our friends and kill our enemies, simple as that.

Yeah, simple like that you think you've got your victory in your pocket, that's why you don't give a damn about how many enemies will be facing you. Exactly what I said.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/27/2004 8:22 Comments || Top||

#93  Last link I posted should have been this instead: http://www.cemener.net/guzeller/demet/demet32.jpg

Anyone blames me when Azcat sees no difference between the above and the mullahs?
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/27/2004 8:25 Comments || Top||

#94  Good Lord, Katsaris--Mookie vs. porn?
You are the Mohammed Atta of RB, completely hijacking the thread and slitting the throats of everyone on board.
Only in this case we pray for death because you're so tiresome!
If young Middle Easterners are smart, they'll choose the porn everytime!
President Bush said on Sept. 22, 2001, "You are either with us or with the terrorists."
This thread was about the fact that the beheading of Paul Johnson galvanized a lot of people to realize that they are now very much against the terrorists.
It's almost Year 3 of the war and you're still practicing sophistry (from the Greek) about who, how and why America and her allies fight...
if you don't "get it" by now, well--doesn't that say which side you're on?
As for Syria and Iran, I very much believe that Bush will take care of them in his second term and in fact, we're already engaged with both in a big way.
And he's meeting with Turkey's Erdogan right now about problems in the region.
The time for sophistry and argument over why is long past.
Time to choose.
Posted by: Jen || 06/27/2004 10:04 Comments || Top||

#95  Crikey this is getting as long as an LGF thread.

Phil B: I NEVER contended that either appeasement is the answer (ín fact I've maintained EXACTLY the opposite since 9/11 to be precise) or that the fight against islamofascism was a problem of individuals. I've consistantly maintained it is a cultural war against a religious movement - islamofascism! Also, do not assume I am a HE when in fact I am a SHE.

Ricky Bin Ricardo: Who are the moderate muslims? Well for a start the ones that co-operated with Australian Federal Police in finding the Bali Bombers.

Long Hair Republican: you are just an idiotarian. Please don't align yourselves with republicans you'll just lose them votes.

AzCat: The difference between Islamofascists and moderate muslims is that Islamofascists take the Koran to be a political and military doctrine of expansion, and a legal code (sharia) to be dutifully followed to the letter. Moderate muslims are happy to pray at a mosque, refrain from eating pork, perform fasting ceremonies but live in a western, modern democracy and tolerate other cultures and religions without forcing them to convert or die.

That is a pretty huge fucking difference.

If you can't see the difference I feel sorry for your parents since you are dead from the neck up.

Have you never met a muslim who doesn't wear the hijab? I have! Nice lady, too. I still keep in email contact with her.

Bye the way you CAN enforce secular law on muslim countries. uhhhh Egypt? Turkey anyone? And the modern rise of Islamofascism has swept away previously secular rules in Iran and Afghanistan (which in the 80's had female lawyers and doctors and a westernised society).

Bomb-a-rama: yeah it matters that they don't get radicalised. I far prefer a moderate indonesia to my north than one in which churches are getting razed, christians attacked and killed or Islamic hordes heading over my northern border to bring the Dar-ul-Islam to Sydney.

I am quite happy they co-operated in the Bali investigations. Don't want them radicalised into not helping anymore.


The WAY you drive a wedge between them is by exactly what we are doing now. Fighting the Islamofascists but be seen to be nice to moderate muslims. Publicly show solidarity with muslim figures, countenance the ROP game even if it isn't 100% true.

Bush tours Turkey, says thanks for being an ally, shakes hands. Looks good. Moderates follow.

Islamofascists take Moderate Turks in Iraq, behead them. We make a fucking 5 course dinner out of the propaganda opportunity that presents and drip feed it from the horn of Africa to Iceland and make sure every bit of the muslim Ummah knows that we LIKE moderates but we KILL Islamofascists.

Bomb-a-rama, was it you who asked why should we tiptoe around the muslims in america? I agree. I pay that point. We shouldn't. It is THEY who are in a foriegn country and THEY should like it or go back to where they came from.

I make the point though, and stick to it, that we STILL have to fight smart and keep as many neutrals on our side as we can by NOT being overly racist and lumping all muslims in the same boat like a bunch of redneck dumb dumbs which lets face it , some of us are. See AzCat above.

Mike Koslowski That is extremely interesting. YES yes yes, I agree that it may turn nuke and we won't be the first to use it.

If the Islamofascists get a nuke there is zero deterrence factor. They don't care if they die or lose a million of their own if they can get a million of ours and (in their minds) win for Allah.

scary stuff indeed.

But you are demonstrably wrong that 1/3 of the worlds population are renegade. It is a big number but not that big. 1 billion muslims. 1% Islamofascist jihadis, 10% strong sympathisers. Comes to some hundreds of thousands of active fighters, few millions of strong sympathisers and vast bulk of passive sympathisers who can be swayed to neutrality/moderation.

Traveller: I LIKE your suggestion of swapping symbols. That is a new alternative that hasn't been tried.

Next big bombing of westerners, drop a huge big conventional bomb on the holy site at Medina. Inform them the next Islamic terrorist act to strike on Western soil will ensure the bombing of Mecca.

I think that should ceasate hostilities nicely.

Posted by: Anon1 || 06/27/2004 10:15 Comments || Top||

#96  Jen> Didn't mean it to be porn. It seems that though placing "http://www.cemener.net/guzeller/demet/demet32.jpg" in the address bar takes you to the kind of Muslim I was talking about:



the site redirects you elsewhere when you attempt to put it in a link instead.

And as for your accusations of me hijacking the thread and claims that it was about Paul Johnson -- the last time his name was mentioned was in post #11 -- I first participated in post #22 when the thread had ALREADY turned to matters of forced conversion and genocide.

Since you like swearing at people so much: Do you know how to count, you STUPID LITTLE BITCH? Do you know how to read, you IMBECILIC LITTLE SHIT?

if you don't "get it" by now, well--doesn't that say which side you're on?

Once again, I rest my case, about the way that Bush's moronic words are understood EVEN inside AMerica.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/27/2004 10:36 Comments || Top||

#97  Wrong again, you stupid ****.
Johnson was mentioned as lately as post #73 until I brought it up again.

Not only are you a vagina, but you are evil.
And evil people LIE as you do often.
Posted by: Jen || 06/27/2004 10:45 Comments || Top||

#98  When you already chose the path of crude swearing now you are being a fucking wimp and use fucking asterisks instead of real words. If you are not prepared for me to match you word for word, insult for insult, don't go down that path, you dick.

Johnson was mentioned as lately as post #73

Yeah, you moron, my point was that he hadn't been mentioned for many posts *before* I made my own contributions to this thread. I didn't take the thread anywhere where it hadn't already been before me -- aka religious conversions, mass murder, forbidding Islam and the like.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/27/2004 10:52 Comments || Top||

#99  Again you lie--you hijacked it to discuss the wrongness of "American theocratic fascism."
Posted by: Jen || 06/27/2004 10:58 Comments || Top||

#100  you hijacked it to discuss the wrongness of "American theocratic fascism."

While several other people were discussing its rightness. That's not diverting the thread, you moron, that's *participating* in it.

If you want to see people that tried to divert the thread, then look at Robert Crawford's and Frank G.'s posts about "cunt".
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/27/2004 11:39 Comments || Top||

#101  Hey! I'm just Vagina-Friendly™ :-)
Posted by: Frank G || 06/27/2004 11:51 Comments || Top||

#102  #78 Therefore, using the Muslim example of the World Trade Center as a Symbol, maybe it is time to start swapping Symbols. First the Ka’ba in Mecca, this need not entail the loss of much life at all but should get the Muslim’s attention. Second, the Mosque in Medina and lastly, the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

If this doesn’t instill a certain reflective introspection with Dar a Islam, then let the killing begin.


#95 Next big bombing of westerners, drop a huge big conventional bomb on the holy site at Medina. Inform them the next Islamic terrorist act to strike on Western soil will ensure the bombing of Mecca.

I think that should ceasate hostilities nicely.


Since this thread has not quite died yet ...

Traveller and Anon1, permit me to direct your attention towards my own posting from May 4th of this year, Simulation Gives Glimpse of Nuke Terror. In my post I carefully spell out an approach to establishing a credible deterrent to terrorism.

Some people participating in this thread have not uttered a peep to either of you about how ill considered they think your ideas are in spite of cheerfully attacking my presentation of the exact same notions.

I too think the Islamic shrines should be held hostage in a relatively peaceful attempt to show jihadists the error of their ways.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/27/2004 22:02 Comments || Top||

#103  Yeah, simple like that you think you've got your victory in your pocket, that's why you don't give a damn about how many enemies will be facing you. Exactly what I said.

It's almost hilarious that you get your underwear all up in a knot over supposed "moderates" being turned into extremists over silly little things. As I already said, anyone that would become "radicalized" over trivial stuff probably isn't even worth bothering with. These people are BEYOND any reason.

So what if I don't care about how many enemies I'm going to have? Since I have the heftiest stick and can inflict quite a substantial amount of damage on my foes, the issue with those that are going to be my friends is quality, not quantity. I'd rather have five quality allies either at my side or behind me than ten that only have outward appearances of being allies/friends.

Put another way, the regular posters to Rantburg from the UK fall into former category, while you fall into the latter.
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/28/2004 14:36 Comments || Top||


Great White North
Canada’s overseas troop strength to drop sharply
Canada will reduce its overseas military deployments to just 1,200 personnel by fall, down from 4,500 a year ago, the chief of defence staff said on a stopover today in advance of next week’s NATO summit in Turkey. Gen. Ray Henault said deep cuts in troop commitments to its two biggest NATO missions — Afghanistan and Bosnia — and the withdrawal of naval ships from the Persian Gulf, will give the country’s armed forces a much-needed respite. ...In a wide-ranging interview, Henault said the number of troops in Bosnia is currently down to 650 from 1,250 and will be fewer than 100 observers and surveillance troops supporting a European Union mission by September. There will continue to be nominal deployments in Africa, the Middle East and Haiti, where an infantry company will be reduced to a couple of UN staff officers by September. The biggest immediate change will come in Kabul, where the current contingent of 2,300 infantry and mechanized soldiers — the city’s largest foreign troop presence — will be replaced by two successive rotations of about 900 troops, most of them armoured reconnaissance soldiers.
This is bad for our WOT. Say what you will about Canada’s decision not to officially join the Iraq War, Canada has discreetly helped the US by maintaining naval ships in the Persian Gulf as well as keeping their superb soldiers in Afghanistan.
Unlike Mexico, GWB’s great "friend" [cough, cough] on the southern border whose country has been lavished with ongoing Uncle Sam tax $, Mexico has not sent a single Federale to help our troops either in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  They have no money, it's going for health care.
Posted by: Anonymous2U || 06/26/2004 0:03 Comments || Top||

#2  The Federales are busy helping their allies...the Juarez cartel, the Tijuana gangs...

Seriously, though, no beating up on the Mexicans. It's like whipping a third-grader for not being able to solve an integral calculus equation.

Look for Canada to drop its military altogether if current trends continue. Several of my Canadian friends question the need for any military at all, citing the desire to shift the spending to social causes.
Posted by: Gromky || 06/26/2004 0:15 Comments || Top||

#3  Looks like Denmark might be claiming even more islands off Canada in the future if Canada drops the sad military they have now.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 06/26/2004 0:22 Comments || Top||

#4  Anonymous2U - they're sure not getting their money's worth.

Gromky - fine, let them disband their military completely. When the jihadis rise up, we won't have anyone to send to help them, since our troops will be tied up elsewhere. We will, however, find enough to seal the border and shoot down the incoming jihadis like the morons they are.

Then the normal provinces, such as Alberta, can petition to become states. That would really put Toronto's and Quebec's knickers in a twist.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 0:23 Comments || Top||

#5  Gromky,
Excellent! Looks like my plan to take over Canada with a .22 rifle and paintball pistol is about to come true. All hail king ed!
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 0:24 Comments || Top||

#6  Wonder if there's any hope of a change if power shifts in Ottawa in the coming election. One hears now and then about sentiment in Canada to resume serious expenditures on defense, but I have no idea how likely that might be under a new govt.

Shame. I know several Canadians who are furious and despairing over their nation's current imitation of a small, annoying, dependent European country.
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 0:24 Comments || Top||

#7  If Canada could redeploy all those divisions that are arrayed along their northern border. But Iceland, bloody Iceland.

ed, the growers union is well armed. So bring a friend.
Posted by: Lucky || 06/26/2004 0:41 Comments || Top||

#8  I worked with a lot of Canadian Forces - Air (as the politicians chose to call the RCAF) in the 70' and 80's. They were good people, as professional as any military in the world in spite of being the only AF in the world dressed in green. Unfortunately Jean Joseph Jacques Chretien gutted the military and threw the money down a series of rat holes. He assumed that the US would protect Canada and hence he didn't need one. He forgot that depending on the American government for defense puts Canada in the same status as any other state of the Union. We need to remember that Canada is smaller than California. The Canadian Forces (land, air, and sea) can muster about 53,200 personnel. We have more than that here in San Diego county. Actually, I suspect that San Diego county could kick Canada's ass given Canada's current reduced circumstances. With its current miniature military, Canada should give up its pretences of being a nation, dissolve into provinces and let the ones that would like to (mostly the Western provinces) petition to join the US. The rest can sit in regal splendor and majestic irrelevance.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 1:17 Comments || Top||

#9  Without a Canada where would the artist go?
Posted by: Lucky || 06/26/2004 1:25 Comments || Top||

#10  Unfortunately Jean Joseph Jacques Chretien gutted the military and threw the money down a series of rat holes.
Aha, Chretien, that demented socialist moron. I can't stand that guy. He took a nice country and turned it into a banana republic under the rule of a tinpot dictator, himself. A relation of mine flew in the RCAF in WWII. Canada lost more brave souls in WWII than the USA. Then that idiot, Cretin, and his mentor Pierre Elliot Trudeau turned the country upside down. Now Don Cherry, the NHL sportscaster, is the bravest guy in the land and the only one unfraid to speak out against Big Brother in Ottawa. I read a recent article in the National Post that Canada could only scramble 5000 soldiers if a national emergency struck Canada like 9/11. The Liberal Party of Canada let their soldiers fly in killing machines called the aging SeaKing helicopters for years and years, knowing full well they were old and dangerous. When Canada sent soldiers to Afghanistan, they did not have bullet proof vests for them so the Canadian peace keeping troops in Bosnia had to give up their vests so the ones deployed to Afghanistan could have them. Chretien also had starved the military so badly that Canadian troops had to beg a ride from the USA to get flown to Afghanistan. As for pissing away $, Chretien was a master at that-he let the Governor General take her "artiste" cronies with her on a trip to Russia to the tune of $1 million. And then there's the black hole of wasted tax dollars-the gun registry-what a hoot, it was supposed to cost $1 million and now it's up to $1 Billion and going strong. CBC, which nobody watches, costs a cool $1 billion each year. Oh and then there was the $ 3 Billion wasted on job creation grants, according to the scathing report of the Auditor General, doled out by the HRDC. Don't get me started on the black hole called health care-2 years wait list for hip replacement surgery.

Yet not enough $ to supply bullet proof vests for Canadian troops who would be shot at by the Taliban. Jean Chretien never even sent off the troops from Canada to Afghanistan with a personal farewell-slimeball-he would go on vacation to Quebec instead. Did I tell you I can't stand dat guy?

You could do "military" key word searches on 2 Canadian political forums if you are interested on reading why Canada has been sabotaged by the Liberal Party of Canada in terms of helping us in defense - very sad. After you read the articles you will see that Canada is at the same level of Mexico for "excuses", #2: There's:
freedominion.ca and
mapleleafweb.com
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 2:23 Comments || Top||

#11  Canada is on its way to having no military. After that, it'll be on its way to no longer being a country. What a shame.
Posted by: Infidel Bob || 06/26/2004 9:44 Comments || Top||

#12  Canada has a military ? I thought mounties were just in the cartoons.
Posted by: Crikey || 06/26/2004 10:43 Comments || Top||

#13  Crikey, the mounties are police not military.

Rex, Bush and Fox have not been close since 9/11.

Re: the Canadian military, it certainly is true that historically they have been brave and effective fighters. Now they are strained by small peacekeeping and stability/security operations overseas.

I've read online reports to the effect that they can scarcely maintain a handful of helicopters and other equipment at home, too. Sad - and worrisome.

Canada strikes me as having backed themselves into the same smug corner as much of Europe -- sure they are morally superior to the barbarian Americans, quietly dependent on US defense while also assuring themselves loudly that defense would not be needed if it were not for those posturing Americans stirring things up ..... I was in Banff a couple months ago and the headline in the major paper was "Canada feeling smug about itself when it looks south". The article made it clear the author wasn't criticizing that smugness, rather, was quietly reinforcing it.


I'd write them off entirely were it not for that long border and for the number of jihadis and sympathizers they're already harboring.

Posted by: too true || 06/26/2004 11:22 Comments || Top||

#14  Western provinces rise up! Join with the U.S. (We'll let you all have as many guns as you want!.) Quebec can go to the Frogs.
Posted by: Anonymous || 06/26/2004 11:23 Comments || Top||

#15  fine, let's take their oil/Coal/Natural Gas. Payment for "Defense Services"
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:31 Comments || Top||

#16  I'd write them off entirely were it not for that long border

Yeah. A bitch ain't it?

the number of jihadis and sympathizers they're already harboring

Can't be much more than what your country is harboring. At least ours are mostly immigrants.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 12:28 Comments || Top||

#17  sarcasm, Raphael. Americans can handle the defense of Canucks if Canucks aren't actively opposing the US and allowing "refugees" in which are agents against us....The ties between the countries are too tight and too important to let lefty socialist politicians damage them. Question is, when will the loyal Canadians get the upper hand?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 12:35 Comments || Top||

#18  I don't see Canada letting in agents against us any more so than the US. Or has immigration been completely shut down in the US?
As far as loyal Canadians getting the upper hand, the answer will come this Monday. Remember though, I am a pessimist (and a realist).
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 12:49 Comments || Top||

#19  I believe it's been shown Canada's "refugee" policies have let in more problems than the US immigration process, which I also acknowledge has been a disaster. Canada's is just looser on the "political refugee" allowance. I don't have any numbers to justify that belief, just anecdotal, but also in light of the much larger numbers of visitors/immigrants to the US
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 12:56 Comments || Top||

#20  Whether the jihadi agents in Canada are against *Canada* in the *short term* may be open to question. There have been more than a few which are against the US, however, beginning with the attempted Y2K bombers who attempted to come south the Seattle ....

Moreover, it's not clear to me that Canada is even having the discussion about how to effectively deal with terror networks while preserving core civil liberties. As a woman I shudder at the embrace of sharia that is edging in with official approval.

The US isn't handling the problem of infiltation as well as I'd like. We are, however, actively prosecuting and/or detaining members of the networks as we penetrate them. Don't see a whole lot of progress on that sort of thing up north .....
Posted by: too true || 06/26/2004 13:02 Comments || Top||

#21  I don't think it has so much to do with refugees. It simply is easier to get into Canada than the US, it may seem. It's all based on a points system; gather enough points, and you're in. It's even easier to bring over family members, but then I imagine same thing in the US.

There have been loud cases where refugee claims have been rejected. So I assume something, somewhere is working as it should.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 13:08 Comments || Top||


#23  Rafael, do Stephen Harper and the Conservatives have any chance on Monday or is it just going to be more of the Liberal kabuki dance for Canada?
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 14:40 Comments || Top||

#24  It's dead even (statistically). Something like 32% Liberals, 31% Conservatives, 19% NDP (Communists, basically). One thing's for sure, it's going to be a minority government.

Toronto will probably be divided between Liberals and NDP. Rest of Ontario will probably go Conservative.
Even though election results will be available Monday, what happens with the government won't become certain right away.
Considering that Conservatives were practically non-existant in Parliament for the last several years, I'd say this is good news.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 14:54 Comments || Top||

#25  May be about time for an American Foreign Legion.
Posted by: Stephen || 06/26/2004 17:08 Comments || Top||

#26  Looks like Denmark might be claiming even more islands off Canada in the future if Canada drops the sad military they have now.

Probably quite a few more Chinese port visits up north as well.
Posted by: Pappy || 06/26/2004 21:34 Comments || Top||


Home Front: WoT
Al-Qaeda linked man held in Manhattan
A Minnesota man claiming to have links to top al-Qaida leaders was being held in Manhattan, NewsChannel 4 reported. Mohamad Kamal Elzahabi, 41, is suspected of helping the Taliban in the mid-1990s from his business in Queens. The FBI was holding him as a material witness after he appeared before a federal judge on Friday. The Minnesota man, born in Lebanon, faces a charge of lying to federal agents. Federal prosecutors said that while living in New York, he shipped walkie-talkies to Pakistan that wound up in the hands of the Taliban. Officials said that some of those radios were found by U.S. troops in Afghanistan after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. After finding out about him earlier this year -- officials did not say how -- the FBI questioned him in Minnesota. Elzahabi was ultimately moved to New York for further questioning. Authorities said that when he stopped being talkative, he was formally charged. Officials said further charges could follow as they continue to investigate his past. Elzahabi was being held without bond in Manhattan’s federal correction facility until he can be returned to Minnesota, authorities said.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/26/2004 6:26:49 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Mohamad Kamal Elzahabi - that's a Minnesooota name if I ever heard one
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 19:12 Comments || Top||

#2  That's only because you didn't know Moooslims were the first Minnesoootans, ya betcha.
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 19:44 Comments || Top||

#3  Every frigging cabbie in this city needs to be checked out. What better vantage point then running up & down the avenues, watching, plotting, and waiting for orders.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 21:20 Comments || Top||


International-UN-NGOs
U.N. Hopes U.S. Won't Pull Peace Forces
Secretary-General Kofi Annan says he hopes the United States will not withdraw from peacekeeping operations after its failure to win an exemption from international prosecution for war crimes. The United States abandoned the effort Wednesday after Annan urged the Security Council not to go along. It was a major retreat for Washington in its fight against the International Criminal Court and a rare intervention by the U.N. chief. "I think the outcome was a good one for the council, and I think also for the Americans," Annan told a news conference on Friday. The secretary-general had raised "serious doubts" about the legality of an exemption and warned against dividing the Security Council. He had said a new exemption "would be a very unfortunate signal to send at any time — but particularly at this time." Washington argues that the court could be used for frivolous or politically motivated prosecutions of American troops. When the court was formally established on July 1, 2002, the United States threatened to end its involvement in far-flung peacekeeping operations established or authorized by the United Nations if it didn't get an exemption for American peacekeepers.
Do it. Don't hesitate, don't negotiate. Just pull the plug.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:27:44 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Wouldn't the President, as commander-in-chief, be part of the 'troops' subject to prosecution ?
Posted by: Crikey || 06/26/2004 10:45 Comments || Top||

#2  Who gives a flying fuck what Coffee "hopes"? He hopes he won't get caught with his hands in the cookie jar, too.

PULL THE TROOPS.

The "peacekeeping" operations don't keep peace, anyway - unless the Americans or Brits or Aussies are in charge. Let the UN, Euros, and the rest of the world take some responsibility. Or stew in their own blood juices.

As for "peacekeeping," arm the side that's being attacked (unless it's Islamists - but then, they'll already be armed) and let people take care of the peace themselves.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 10:46 Comments || Top||

#3  Bush should send Cheney to do a photo op with Kofi in the Security Council chamber.
Posted by: Mr. Davis || 06/26/2004 10:53 Comments || Top||

#4  Is there a bigger peace of human excrement in the civilized world then Kofi Annan?
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/26/2004 11:02 Comments || Top||

#5  Kofi shoulda thought through the ramifications of his rhetoric and stunt. Now, how's Volker doing? We can use the money we save on peacekeeping troops to pay for an increased investigative staff on Kofi's Oil-For-Dictator's-Palaces-and-their-corrupt-enablers deals
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:07 Comments || Top||

#6  Yes the President falls into that chain of command. All the lefties in the world are lining up now to sue Pvt Smith, etc, President Bush. If I were Bush, ALL of our peacekeeping oprerations woud cease. After a week they would BEG us to return. This UN tribunal shit is nothing more than an extention of EU anti-America shit and we should just flush it.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge || 06/26/2004 12:35 Comments || Top||

#7  It's time to pull back our far-flung forces and redeploy them to places that matter to US interests. George Bush has been quietly doing that for the last four years, although the pace has recently accelerated. More importantly, we should stop paying for the UN "peacekeepers" that other nations deploy. Without US funding and logistics support, the various and sundry UN operations would simply cease to exist and the forces assigned to them would have to beg, borrow, or steal the money to buy a ticket home. If the UN secretariat, the EU, and the assorted Lilliputians that constitute the chorus in the UN want to continue to disparage America and if they think they have the moral right to try US forces for "war crimes", then it's time for us to stop funding and supporting their criticism and "operations". It's time for Atlas to shrug.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 13:04 Comments || Top||

#8  I agree with Barbara. Let's face it, peacekeepers just separate the sides after most of the killing, pillaging and raping has been done. Then it starts again after each side has time to rest and rearm. Most UN peacekeepers don't give a damn what happens in country. Most of them are used as rent-a-soldier for their governments to feed from the UN trough.

Pull all US troops and budget from the UN. The US pays for 1/3 of the peacekeeping budget ($2.68 billion for 2004, UN wants $5 billion next year, US+Japan pays 50%). Take that money and decide if it is worth arming, training and advising one side that can bring about a decent government. In the end, it will kill fewer people and bring better government than the current system.
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 13:06 Comments || Top||

#9  Fred has it right, but interestingly, so does Ed. I've read Ed's post maybe half dozen times, just working it through my mind. I'm not sure that I can do better than this.

Still, my take is to pull the troops from all peacekeeping missions absent specific congressional authorization. US Soldiers may participate in many or even all peacekeeping missions, but solely under US Command...after congress gives its blessing.

I realize that congress will argue and blather and snarl at having to actually take some responsibility, responsibility that should be theirs in the first instance. It it thought and hoped that over time that congress will change and actually become an institution that is capable of making decisions and standing by them.

If Congress wants to send troops to Liberia, then well and fine. If they want it done quickly, that's okay also, get a Quorum, take a vote, authorize the funding, and get it done.

Otherwise zilch.

Just another thought from the Left.

Best Wishes,

Posted by: Traveller || 06/26/2004 14:09 Comments || Top||

#10  To just stop paying for peacekeepers leaves US looking like bad guy(I know going to happen anyway,but let's not give 'em ammo too)and easy scapegoat for UN inaction-"if the US hadn't stopped funding we would have stopped the atrocoties in East BumF***."The smart way to do it,as well as stick in the knife and twist it a little,is to have State Dept. release statement that goes something like this:

"The United States firmly believes that the intentions of the UN are praiseworthy.However we have to observe that the peacekeepers deployed often fail miserably at their job.This is because the bulk of troops provided to the UN are neither well-trained,nor well-disciplined.Using these ill-trained troops has led to countless deaths and untold misery in Rwanda,Bosnia,(list of countries).Therefore,in the interests of humanity,the United States will no longer fund peacekeeping missions until such time as the UN sets up a training center for peacekeeping forces and only sends graduates of such training into the field."

To answer your question,yes the US is amenable to funding such training.No,the US does not care who does the training,nor where it is conducted,other than it be done by qualified personnel.I don't believe that at this time American troops would be sent to such a school,so yes,no US troops would be assigned to UN peacekeeping missions.We rightly agree that the world holds US troops to a high standard,why shouldn't the world expect the same from UN peacekeepers?No further questions,thank-you for your time.

Posted by: Stephen || 06/26/2004 14:13 Comments || Top||

#11  AP and other news organizations are twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to convince us that this a "failure" and a Bad Thing for the US. All it means is that, in future, we will be much more hesitant to do the UN's peacekeeping bidding and will have every reason to be against future missions. There can be no doubt among thinking humans that any attempt to prosecute Americans for "war crimes" willbe political in nature, especially since no effort whatsoever has EVER been made to prosecute anyone else on earth for war crimes by the UN. (Milosevic is the only exception I can think of, and he beat the charges anyway)

No, this is a GOOD THING. Kaffir Anus knows his UN fucked up this time.
Posted by: Chris W. || 06/26/2004 14:22 Comments || Top||

#12  This is a nice idea Stephen, well written and well thought out...and yet, I see two problems.

1. The problem with UN troops isn't that they are untrained, (though factually you may be correct), but rather there is no political will in backing them in doing what soldiers do. If anything goes even slightly wrong, various UN types say...see, it's the soldiers.

Under such circumstances, of course they do a bad job regardless of training.

2. A well armed, well equiped, well motivated and well trained UN Army? No, I'm sorry, a lefty I may be, but this is something even beyond the fringes even for me.

A well trained UN Army is an idea that you may want to re-think.

Best Wishes & Respectfully Yours,
Posted by: Traveller || 06/26/2004 14:25 Comments || Top||

#13  There is certainly potential for a sweet outcome here. Ed's got it right. I think Stephen's got a good approach, but I'd opt to twist the knife gently in the statement we make, documenting how critical US blood and treasure have been to not just "peace-keeping" (as others have noted, rarely does this accurately describe the operation or its effects) but humanitarian relief. As we're fairly busy using our military to defend civilization and ourselves at the moment, we appreciate the rest of the planet stepping up to its responsibilities on "peace-keeping". If they don't -- OK.
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 14:28 Comments || Top||

#14  I say its time to close the UN, and establish something that works.

Pull our funding, pull our troops, and throw them out of the US.

Use the UN buildings for a new UN, one that excludes tinpot dictators and keeps insanities like having Iran head up the nuclear non-proliferation comitee and N Korea in charge of human rights.

1st qualification for memebership: a freely elected representative government.

2nd qualification: your ability to vote is related to the troops you deploy and the money you contribute. The more of those you have as a percentage of the total, the more your vote counts. If you get up over 25%, you get a veto. You get over 33%, you get to override vetoes.

That rules out the crap hole countries from having a say over policy, and also excludes the kleptocracies of the middle east, asia and African voting themselves "Oil for food".

And initially, the voting ability being related to the troops provided and the funding given - That shuts down France, RUssia and Germany in a hurry.

Basically, if you want to have a voice, you have to either carry the load or pay your way.
Posted by: OldSpook || 06/26/2004 14:32 Comments || Top||

#15  Old Spook, I love it! (Your plan would probably be like UN ExLax and would clean the place out for good, but... I don't want these America-haters on our soil for another minute!)
Move the UN to France!
And don't hold your breath until we show up...or maybe you should.
Get the U.S. out of the UN and the UN out of the U.S.
President Bush rope-a-doped them into voting on our immunity and they themselves said "NO."
(Kofi urged them not to because our Abu Grab abuse showed we were not to be trusted.)
I'm delighted that our troops will no longer be required for missions like Black Hawk Down in Mogadishu where they were ambushed by Al Queda while "peacekeeping."
Our troops have other more pressing war business elsewhere anyway in countries where we have bilateral agreements.
Posted by: Jen || 06/26/2004 14:40 Comments || Top||

#16  Secretary-General Kofi Annan says he hopes the United States will not withdraw from peacekeeping operations after its failure to win an exemption from international prosecution for war crimes.

Yeah, and hillbillies want to called "sons of the soil."

It's the old "be very careful what you wish for" routine all over again. Roosevelt Roads springs to mind.

Still, my take is to pull the troops from all peacekeeping missions absent specific congressional authorization. US Soldiers may participate in many or even all peacekeeping missions, but solely under US Command...after congress gives its blessing.

I realize that congress will argue and blather and snarl at having to actually take some responsibility, responsibility that should be theirs in the first instance. It it thought and hoped that over time that congress will change and actually become an institution that is capable of making decisions and standing by them.


Works for me, Traveller, but you're expecting a lot from American politicians. They might give themselves a collective aneurysm trying to be that logical.

1st qualification for memebership: a freely elected representative government.

I agree, Old Spook. Elected representation and democracy need to be regarded as fundamental human rights. Nothing less will do. That the UN gives every penny-ante tyrant say-so over the workings of superpowers is second only in ridiculousness to Kofi Annan himself. That walking pile of excrement should do only one thing, spontaneously combust from a premature entry into the hell he so richly deserves.

Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 15:18 Comments || Top||

#17  Whatever purpose the UN served ended when the Berlin Wall collapsed and the Soviet Empire imploded. Like Al Gore, its become an embarassment that many wish would just go away.

Jen, maybe we can get the UN space in the old League of Nations buildings in Geneva. Just think what the impact on NYC's budget would be were the UN staff and delegates forced to pay their outstanding parking tickets.

Stephen, the problem with the UN training peacekeepers is that the way the organization is structured now, the training would probably be done by al Quaeda.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 15:24 Comments || Top||

#18 
the problem with the UN training peacekeepers is that the way the organization is structured now, the training would probably be done by al Quaeda
Not necessarily a bad thing, RWV. Most of the ongoing problems in the world involve moslems anyway. While they're busy training the "peacekeepers," we can arm any non-moslems who are being attacked by moslems and let them establish their own peace. If it's moslem against moslem that needs to be peace-kept, let Al-Q have at it.

Gee, do ya' think my patience with this crap has run a little thin?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 15:32 Comments || Top||

#19  Gee, do ya' think my patience with this crap has run a little thin?

I can see light through it, Barbara.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 15:39 Comments || Top||

#20  Still, my take is to pull the troops from all peacekeeping missions absent specific congressional authorization.

Political action has already been taken on this front via the American Servicemember's Protection Act of 2002 but it turned out completely opposite to what you're suggesting: Congress made it illegal for US troops to take part in UN peacekeeping operations without either: 1) an explicit waiver of the law and declaration by the president that US national security demands our presence, or 2) exemption from ICC prosecution for US troops on said operation.

If Bush plays this right, it could be a *huge* victory for him in US public opinion. Imagine a forthcoming national address, "Ladies and gentlemen today it is with great regret that I have suspended all US military participation in UN peacekeeping missions. We know their goals are noble and their causes just, but the UN has demanded that our men and women in uniform be placed at the mercy of a politically motivated court to which our great nation is not a party. We are not a party to this court because it does not guarantee even the most basic and fundamental rights embodied in our own Constitution and we are therefore prohibited from into a treaty with it. Further, I will not subject American men and women who have freely volunteered to defend our nation to the inevitable politically motivated prosecutions they would suffer should we continue to send them off to defend lands and peoples other than our own under the auspices of the United Nations. My commitment to freedom and democracy is as strong as ever but it is apparant that we must now pursue these ends through free and democratic institutions."
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 16:23 Comments || Top||

#21  To address some issues w/my proposal(not that is has a chance of happening}

1)Gives US graceful exit from UN peacekeeping

2)US will be doing most of funding,so US approval needed for how many train and who trains them.(Personally,I see this as something France and EU should jump all over,w/training centers in former US bases in Germany.In fact,they should have proposed something like this a decade ago.)

3)Peacekeeper training is for infantry/MP types.Having 10,000,20,000,or even 100,000 decently trained infantry w/no armor support,no tactical air and no way to get anywhere w/out US airlift is not that threatening to me.(Not to be too barbaric,but having UN HQ in NYC does give US hostage leverage over UN forces leadership.)

4)With no US troops on ground,no US media,no pressure for more money to UN.In time,less and less public support for funding UN,causing it to scale back or demand more money from Europe,eroding support there.

5)UN blaming problems on its troops/no political will.Actually,the UN never blames anyone but the US,any problems of its own it covers up.The lack of political will is what will keep it from sending peacekeepers to made-up crisis areas.When the UN leadership on ground gets attacked they pull out.
Posted by: Stephen || 06/26/2004 16:44 Comments || Top||

#22  Have UN peacekeepers ever actually kept the peace?
Posted by: Anonymous5405 || 06/26/2004 17:38 Comments || Top||

#23  Have UN peacekeepers ever actually kept the peace? Anon5405

No, but they spend lots of money on drugs, child prostitutes and souvenirs.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 06/26/2004 18:04 Comments || Top||

#24  Jeeezus, who cares. We still have 100 land based exemptions in the Dakotas.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 20:34 Comments || Top||

#25  I think Dick Cheney has the correct response for Annan, the one he gave to Leaky.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/26/2004 21:31 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Three Bombs Explode Harmlessly in Yangon
Three bombs exploded at the main railway station in Myanmar's capital early Saturday, but caused no injuries, an official said. The explosives were apparently placed in flower pots near the tracks and went off at about 3:45 a.m., said a railway official, speaking on condition of anonymity. There were no passengers at the station at the time, said the official. He gave no other details. It was not clear who planted the bombs in the normally placid capital of this military-ruled Southeast Asian country.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:58:05 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
ElBaradei: Syria welcomes nuclear inspectors
Syria has told the U.N. nuclear watchdog that its inspectors are welcome to come and verify the nature of its atomic activities, the agency’s chief said on Saturday. "The Syrians told me they would be happy if we go and verify whatever we need to verify," International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) chief Mohamed ElBaradei told reporters during a flight to Moscow for a four-day official visit. "But we haven’t gotten any piece of information on why we should be concerned about Syria." Last week, diplomats told Reuters that the IAEA considered Damascus a top candidate for being the fourth customer of the nuclear black market that supplied uranium enrichment technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya.

But ElBaradei said no country had provided any hard evidence that would implicate Syria as a customer in the black market set up by Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of Pakistan’s atomic weapons programme. "This is something I read in the paper. Nobody came to us with any information (about Syria)," ElBaradei said. The IAEA, along with governments and intelligence agencies, has been investigating the details of Khan’s network so that it can be dismantled. The results of the investigation are classified. Syria, which has called for the creation of a Middle East free of weapons of mass destruction, has denied any interest in nuclear weapons.

Last month, diplomats and nuclear experts told Reuters that an experimental high-tech intelligence technique developed by the United States had detected what appear to be operating uranium-enrichment centrifuges in Syria. Diplomats said the centrifuges, which spin at supersonic speeds to purify uranium for use as fuel for power plants or weapons, could only have come from Khan’s network. But some U.S. officials -- as well as ElBaradei -- are sceptical about the centrifuges. "We don’t have super high-tech detectors, and if somebody detected something they’d better come to us. We are the ones who can clarify fact from fiction," ElBaradei said.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 06/26/2004 7:53:00 PM || Comments || Link || [6 views] Top|| File under:

#1  can they enter the Bekaa?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 21:12 Comments || Top||

#2  What about WMD hidden in Lebanon inspectors?
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 21:23 Comments || Top||

#3  The only thing I care to hear is "Syria welcomes our new American overlords."
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 21:23 Comments || Top||

#4  It will happen, but maybe not how envisioned at present.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 21:30 Comments || Top||

#5  Frank G - That was the first place I thought of too.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 06/26/2004 23:41 Comments || Top||


Officials rebuke Iran for nuclear policy, Iran reconsiders
Well no, Iran didn’t reconsider. In fact, Iran will go nuclear in 5,4,3...
The United States, the European Union and the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog condemned Iran on Saturday for deciding to resume a production process that could make purified uranium for an atomic bomb. They urged Iran, which says its nuclear ambitions are peaceful, to rethink its decision to produce parts again for centrifuges that can purify uranium. The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Mohamed ElBaradei, said he hoped the move was temporary.
What, the condemnation??
But a joint U.S.-EU statement, issued after talks between President Bush and European leaders in Ireland, stopped short of threatening new action to punish Iran for breaking a deal it struck with Britain, France and Germany.
"That would be counterproductive. Iran must join France as a nuclear power."
...ElBaradei echoed EU and U.S. concerns over Iran while talking to reporters on a flight to Moscow for a four-day official visit.
...to pick up some spare parts on behalf of Iran.
"I hope Iran will go back to the full suspension they have committed themselves to," he said. A letter from Iran to the IAEA, seen by Reuters, told the agency that Tehran "intends to resume, under IAEA supervision, manufacturing of centrifuge components and the assembly and testing of centrifuges as of 29 June."
So El Baradei will become an active participant in their nuclear weapons program. Makes sense.
Iran’s decision was a retaliation against an IAEA resolution last week saying the agency’s board of governors "deplores" Iran’s failure to cooperate fully with IAEA inspectors. But Iran also pledged in the letter to continue to allow IAEA inspectors access to nuclear sites for short-notice, intrusive inspections under the IAEA’s so-called Additional Protocol, which Tehran signed last year but has yet to ratify. Asked when the IAEA would be inspecting a site in Tehran called Lavizan, where all the buildings have been razed and the topsoil removed, ElBaradei said "soon" but said there was no evidence that Iran was hiding anything there.
Of course he’s never been there yet so he can say that with full confidence.
Washington says Iran razed the site in an attempt to cover up signs of activities at Lavizan related to what it says is Tehran’s secret atom bomb program. Tehran denies wanting nuclear weapons and insists its nuclear program is aimed solely at generating electricity.
It’s a new type of electricity, you see. Nothing to worry about.
Iran promised France, Germany and Britain in October it would suspend all activities related to uranium enrichment, a process of purifying uranium for use as fuel for nuclear power plants or weapons, in exchange for peaceful nuclear technology.
And thus the Euros got duped.
Centrifuges are machines that purify uranium gas by spinning at supersonic speeds. Germany, Britain and France have adopted a strategy of engagement with Iran that contrasts sharply with the U.S. policy of isolating Iran and threatening it with U.N. Security Council sanctions for violating its obligations under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).
And thus nothing changes. Except for Iran. In a big way. A mushroomy kind of way.
The IAEA began investigating Iran after an Iranian exile group reported in August 2002 that Tehran was hiding a massive uranium enrichment facility and other sites from the IAEA.
Posted by: Rafael || 06/26/2004 2:46:13 PM || Comments || Link || [4 views] Top|| File under:

#1  A "rebuke"? What's next, the "stern lecture"?

Morons. Only judicious application of high explosives in massive amounts will stop Iranian nuclear aspirations in time to avoid catastrophe.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 15:23 Comments || Top||

#2  Iran reconsiders, my ass. More like lies through their teeth. As usual.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 16:20 Comments || Top||

#3  I'm waiting for the ultimate rejoinder, " I double dog dare you."
Posted by: Anonymous5410 || 06/26/2004 21:37 Comments || Top||


Terror Networks
Think Again: Al Qaeda
Long, in four parts; RB die-hards won’t learn anything, but this is a good reminder IMHO.
Posted by: Anonymous5089 || 06/26/2004 6:11:36 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Although I agree with much of what the author says (re: importance of BinLadin, chances of developing a nuke, chances of large-scale chem/bio attack), he seems to be pretty blase about the terrorist threat. Without coming out and saying so he seems to advocate a containment/don't-smash-the-hornets'-nest/law enforcement approach. Am I misreading him?
Posted by: Xbalanke || 06/26/2004 23:04 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
7 Arab militant chiefs killed in Nablus
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 22:38 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Caucasus
Ingush raid masterminds ID’d
Chechen Interior Minister Alu Alkhanov has blamed Chechen rebel leaders Shamil Basayev and Aslan Maskhadov for masterminding the recent guerilla attacks on several towns in Ingushetia.
Comes as a surprise, doesn't it?
"Our operational data suggest that Basayev and Maskhadov were involved in organizing these attacks," Alkhanov said at a news conference at the Interfax central office on Saturday. "As far as so-called field commanders are concerned, Doku Umarov was directly involved in the attacks and Magomed Yevloyev commanded the attackers," he said, calling the attacks "a guerilla sortie."
Yoda suspected Count Doku might be behind it...
"As for its goals, I think it is not a secret that this was an attempt to destabilize Ingushetia," Alkhanov said. He did not rule out similar attacks occurring in Chechnya. "[Chechnya’s] law enforcement agencies are doing everything in their power to prevent them. Everything possible is being done to find and detain the attackers in Ingushetia who have returned to Chechnya," he said. Alkhanov said that Maskhadov will eventually be detained. "If a problem exists, it needs to be tackled. So the problem with Maskhadov will be resolved," he said. The minister expressed confidence that former rebels who have surrendered and are now working in the republic’s law enforcement agencies will never rejoin their old rebel groups. Alkhanov cautioned against any steps aimed at changing the strategy of the counter-terrorist operation in Chechnya, saying that "nothing new needs to be invented - America has been discovered and the bicycle has been invented. I see no need for changing the strategy of federal agencies’ work. The task has been set and everybody is working."
I'd suggest revamping your intel support. We can smell it from here.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/26/2004 6:33:27 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Wasn't there another Basayev, who was killled? Or am I misremembering?

(I checked; Shamil Basayev is the only active Basayev in the Rantburg Name Database, and this is the only article that gets picked up.)
Posted by: Phil Fraering || 06/26/2004 22:08 Comments || Top||

#2  Phil. I was asking the very same question on Basayev dead or alive?

Here is a BBC Link on the man which has driven the Russians to vodka by the gallons since this war over oil/natural gas & ethnic control began.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 22:16 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Gas Masks for U.S. toops in Iraq
6-26-04
Something is in the wind, precautionary tactics are the order of the day.

DEBKAfile’s military sources report:
US troops in Iraq ordered to start carrying gas masks this week and stay within reach of centers distributing anti-contamination suits. This week’s NATO summit and sovereignty transfer in Iraq believed high danger points.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 5:56:41 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  This, along with other article about chemical attack in green zone, is serious cause for concern. It wouldn't surprise me if the qaeda/baathist types have been holding some of this stuff in reserve to conduct major attacks at or immediately following the transfer of sovereignty. (this is sludj on a different computer)
Posted by: Anonymous4777 || 06/26/2004 19:30 Comments || Top||

#2  The thought of how a chem attack against US troops would be spun by the Democratic media leaves me sputtering in incoherence.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 21:30 Comments || Top||

#3  How about: "If we hadn't pursued this war based on WMD lies, they wouldn't need to acquire them"?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 21:38 Comments || Top||

#4  One, just one chemical attack against our troops (Coalition forces in general) will bring down the full wrath of allied military might on those responsible. If the trail extends to either Iran or Syria ..so be it.

Iraq & Afghanistan are two dominoes which are no longer under the governing control of the enemy. The other major terrorist dominos are Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia & the Sudan.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 21:55 Comments || Top||

#5  Take out the Saudis and the Iranians and the rest will collapse on their own.
Posted by: AzCat || 06/26/2004 22:02 Comments || Top||

#6  AzCat, point well taken. The Iranian and the Saudis, #1 & #2 OPEC exports and both HUGE ongoing financial support for the two main factions of Islamic fanaticism against western civilization. Wahhabi & Shi'ite.

Syria & her vassal state of Lebanon infested with Hizballah, are under Iran's branch coupled with Iranian support for Hamas.

While Osama & the world-wide al-Qa'ida terror network are in effect the creation of the House of Fraud. (Sa'ud)
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 22:36 Comments || Top||


Caucasus
First suspects in Ingushetia raid detained
The law enforcement bodies detained a number of people who are allegedly involved in a bandit raid in Ingushetia - Russia’s North Caucasian autonomy that borders in the east with Chechnya, says a statement of the Regional Operational Staff (ROS) in the North Caucasus received by RIA Novosti on Saturday. The document says that as of now the law enforcement bodies carry out work on establishing the organizers and perpetrators of this raid. "Some of them are already detained," says the statement. By the ROS data, as of now it has been established that most bandits who participated in attacking Ingush settlements had stayed there for a long time and made caches with weapons there. "This circumstance is confirmed by the fact that many criminals’ faces were masked," the press release reads.
Posted by: Dan Darling || 06/26/2004 6:31:46 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Africa: Horn
US to impose sanctions on Darfur militia members
The United States will slap punitive sanctions on members of pro-Khartoum militias operating in Sudan's crisis-wracked western region of Darfur and might also apply penalties to Sudanese officials found to be complicit in atrocities there. The State Department said the sanctions would be imposed regardless of whether Washington makes a legal determination that the Arab militias, known as Janjaweed, or government troops are committing "genocide" in Darfur. Such a determination is now under review. "Whether you call it genocide or whether you call it ethnic cleansing, clearly there are atrocities being committed," deputy spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters. "We are going to identify individual members of the militia, the Janjawid, for sanctions based on their involvement in ethnic cleansing." Asked if sanctions might also be imposed on Sudanese government officials who may have links to the militias, Ereli replied: "That's something we're looking at."

Thursday, the US ambassador at-large for war crimes, Pierre Prosper, told lawmakers that there is evidence "genocide" may be taking place in Darfur, but that the United States had not yet been able to confirm that. "I can tell you that we see indicators of genocide and there is evidence that points in that direction," he said. Despite the uncertainty, Prosper said Washington had evidence of war crimes committed by seven militia members and associates and identified them by name. "These people need to be investigated and brought to justice," he said. Prosper identified the seven as: Musa Hilal, Hamid Dawai, Abdullah abu Shineibat, Omar Babbush, Omada Saef, Ahmad Dekheir and Ahmed Abu Kamasha. Ereli could not say whether the seven people identified by Prosper would be the first targets of the US sanctions -- which will likely include a travel ban and a freeze on any assets they may in the United States or under US jurisdiction. Ereli's comments came just days ahead of a landmark visit to Khartoum and Darfur next week by US Secretary of State Colin Powell, who said he would use the opportunity to press the government to end the crisis.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 6:12:50 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  That'll stop 'em much more effectively than just shooting them.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/26/2004 18:18 Comments || Top||

#2  no travel to the US for these militia members? Exactly when have they even tried? weakass response. RC is right..armimg the villagers is the moral and correct thing to do, and if it fucks with the empire quest of the Master Race™ in Khartoum, so much the better
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 18:23 Comments || Top||

#3  Frank G: no travel to the US for these militia members? Exactly when have they even tried? weakass response. RC is right..armimg the villagers is the moral and correct thing to do, and if it fucks with the empire quest of the Master Race™ in Khartoum, so much the better

We don't really know if the people in Darfur are exactly our friends. And if we take responsibility for them, what happens when they lose? Do we take on the burden of hundreds of thousands of Muslim refugees? Much as I sympathize with the victims of the massacres, I think we approach this situation very, very gingerly.

If we're going to adopt a cause, let's adopt the cause of the *Christians* in Indonesia who are the victims of periodic massacres. At least if they lose and have to seek asylum, we get a flood of good-looking *Christian* babes coming here.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 18:29 Comments || Top||

#4  When I first became aware of the resurgence of the slave trade in Africa, I took a look at the groups trying to put a stop to it. Their approaches fell into two categories: "raising awareness" and buying then freeing slaves. The first is typical useless bullshit -- it makes the Movement feel good, but it doesn't put a stop to anything.

Buying then freeing slaves is worse than useless, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, it frees some of them. The ones not lucky enough to be bought by a Westerner are still slaves, though. Oh, and the money just fuels more slave raids and increases the weapon gap between the slaves and the slavers.

If you can't get a strong -- and REAL -- government to outlaw slavery, the only real way to fight slavery is to do something about the slavers. Kill them; make their raids more dangerous; drive up the cost of taking slaves. That will drive up the cost of buying them; if you keep up the pressure, eventually the price of a slave will be more than anyone can pay.

Of course, with Moslem Arabs involved, the economics don't necessarily mean anything. They seem to view owning slaves as a religious and ethnic right; who knows if the economics would have any effect.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/26/2004 18:42 Comments || Top||

#5  nothing bad with that, ZF
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 18:42 Comments || Top||

#6  well, we can buy the rest of them - price: leaving Khartoum intact?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 18:45 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Bomb kills 17 south of Baghdad
At least 17 people have been killed and 40 wounded in a suspected car bomb blast in the Iraqi city of Hilla, south of Baghdad, a senior US-led coalition military spokesman says. "It is a suspected car bomb," said Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, the deputy director of coalition operations. "There are currently 17 dead and 40 wounded." Lieutenant Colonel Robert Strzelecki, spokesman for the Polish-led force that patrols the city, says the blast occurred at 8:45pm local time. The bomb exploded near the former Saddam mosque, named after the toppled Iraqi president. The blast comes four days before the scheduled handover of power from the coalition to a caretaker interim Iraqi Government. On Thursday, at least 100 people were killed in a wave of bombings and attacks throughout Iraq.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 5:43:51 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Al-Zarqawi Overplays Hand: Even Anti-American Elements Unite Against Him
EFL
Key Iraqi opponents of the U.S. occupation expressed unease Friday over the wave of insurgent attacks that killed more than 100 Iraqis a day earlier, and rejected efforts by foreign guerrillas to take the lead in the insurgency and mate it with the international jihad advocated by Osama bin Laden. "We do not need anyone from outside the borders to stand with us and spill the blood of our sons in Iraq," Ahmed Abdul Ghafour Samarrae, a Sunni cleric with a wide following, declared in his Friday sermon at Umm al Qurra mosque in Baghdad.

Since they were appointed three weeks ago, Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and members of his U.S.-sponsored interim government have railed against the car bombings and other attacks. But Friday’s show of disgust — expressed in mosques and, in Sadr’s case, with fliers calling for cooperation with Iraqi police — marked the first time anti-occupation clerics and fighters sided against violence associated with the insurgency, for which Zarqawi has increasingly asserted responsibility. In that light, it could be an important moment in the U.S. struggle to win acceptance for the military occupation and for the interim government scheduled to acquire limited authority next Wednesday. While far from embracing the U.S. occupation or the new government, the anti-occupation leaders seemed to disavow the bloodiest edge of the violence and Zarqawi’s attempt to make it part of al Qaeda’s vision of international jihad.

Samarrae said he had learned that some Iraqi insurgent leaders have begun to clash with Zarqawi loyalists, insisting the jihadists do not represent the "right and true resistance." He warned against those who he said want to tear the country apart in the name of Islam and suggested they were foreigners who should not be part of Iraq’s conflict. "This is the first time we have heard the minaret broadcast support for the Iraqi government," said Edward Peter Messmer, the occupation authority’s coordinator for the Baqubah region, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad. "And it couldn’t come at a better time."

Sadr, whose Mahdi Army has fought U.S. troops in the Sadr City slum in eastern Baghdad and in Najaf, 90 miles to the south, ordered his followers to lay down their weapons and cooperate with Iraqi police in Sadr City to "deprive the terrorists and saboteurs of the chance to incite chaos and extreme lawlessness." Aws Khafaji, a cleric in Sadr’s militantly political stream of Shiite Islam, disowned Thursday’s violence even more clearly in a sermon at the Hikma mosque in Sadr City. "We condemn and denounce yesterday’s bombings and attacks on police centers and innocent Iraqis, which claimed about 100 lives," he said. "These are attacks launched by suspects and lunatics who are bent on destabilizing the country and ruining the peace so that the Iraqi people will remain in need of American protection."
Posted by: sludj || 06/26/2004 12:00:53 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Are they finally getting sick of being target practice for the "international jihad" and waking up over there?
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/26/2004 17:34 Comments || Top||

#2  Dang. I'm almost out of popcorn...
Posted by: PBMcL || 06/26/2004 17:37 Comments || Top||

#3  This is good news, no matter that these clerics still hate us. Although I found this pretty funny:

[one of Sadr's clerics] said "These are attacks launched by suspects and lunatics..."

I guess they want the monopoly on the suspect lunatic market.
Posted by: beer_me || 06/26/2004 18:32 Comments || Top||

#4  I just popped a new bag in the microwave ;)

This is better than I was even hoping for... I've read multiple reports of even extremist clerics calling for calm and support of the new gov't. Al Queda is screwed in Iraq.

I guarantee in 5 years Iraqis will universally love the US..... But, then in 20 years, when they're rich and comfortable, they'll universally hate us and call us imperialists when we try to help another people living under tyrannical rule ;)
Posted by: Damn_Proud_American || 06/26/2004 18:37 Comments || Top||

#5  As I said in an earlier post: this a major event, a seachange.

The veil has been pulled down. Iraqis, even the so-called "insurgents" can see for themselves now who the real enemy is.

The Bush strategy is working...better and better every day.
Posted by: RMcLeod || 06/26/2004 19:02 Comments || Top||

#6  What did I say? Sadr overplayed his hand and invited Zaeqawi and now when he finally realizes he can't control Zarqawi he "lays down his weapons and cooperates with the Iraqi police". He is in way to deep now. I wouldn't be surprised if Zarqawi has him offed.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 06/26/2004 21:05 Comments || Top||

#7  How about overplaying his hand by decapitating people? I cannot believe he can be that stupid! I am still thinking that he must have some secret agenda or something because, if he decapitates those three turks, even Aris will come over to the "dark side" (our side).
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/26/2004 22:42 Comments || Top||

#8  "These are attacks launched by suspects and lunatics who are bent on destabilizing the country and ruining the peace so that the Iraqi people will remain in need of American protection."

"Aws Khafaji... disowned Thursday’s violence even more clearly"

This isn't very clear to me. Khafaji seems to be claiming the 'suspects and lunatics' are terrorizing the people so that the U.S. militery will stay there longer. Keee-riced! These people can't say what they mean even when they mean it.
Posted by: Larry Everett || 06/27/2004 10:08 Comments || Top||

#9  Anonymous4617> Since I don't know who you are and since my ideological universe doesn't revolve around you one way or another, I don't know what your own personal "side" is and whether I'm already in it, or whether there's any chance of me ever joining it.
Posted by: Aris Katsaris || 06/27/2004 13:59 Comments || Top||

#10  Deacon - There is no connection between Zarqawi and Sadr, IMO. Sure there was a convergence of interests and timing since the June 30th thingy was there for all to plan for & target months in advance.

Sadr is / was an Iranian tool-fool who shot his bolt some time ago - he's been insignificant for a couple of weeks, now. Sistani, from whom Sadr has desperately sought some form of Shi'a legitimacy, finally snubbed him. Sistani also has finally called a spade a spade and denounced Zarqawi - a pure Islamic blasphemer in Sistani's eyes who threatens Sistani's vision of a Shi'a dominated "democratic" Iraq.

I very seriously doubt the AlQ-ish / Wahhabi / Sunni / Ba'athist / foreign 'fighter' forces which Zarqawi putatively leads and associates himself are actively cooperating with the Mad Mullahs. Sure, they will take simultaneity where it affords advantage, but I think it's limited to serendipity.
Posted by: .com || 06/27/2004 14:16 Comments || Top||


1st chemical attack by terrorists in Iraq?
From World Net Daily...
A day after the head of the CIA weapons inspection team warned that terrorists in Iraq are trying to get their hands on the Saddam Hussein regime's chemical weapons of mass destruction, Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin reports the first attack with these weapons of mass destruction has been launched inside Baghdad's Green Zone. Few details are available, including any casualties associated with the attack using mustard gas. The sources say the munitions were old, but still potentially lethal. "I think it's safe to say our little friends know where the cache is now," said one source sardonically.
Haven't seen anything else on this. If it's true, it'll be a biggy...
Posted by: Silentbrick || 06/26/2004 11:42 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  But Al Gore sez there aren't any...
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 17:31 Comments || Top||

#2  Anyone know what WND's reliability is?
Posted by: Anonymous5405 || 06/26/2004 17:34 Comments || Top||

#3  I don't think they do any original reporting. They get a lot of stuff from Joe Farrah, which this one comes from. I don't consider either a great source.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 17:39 Comments || Top||

#4  I don't agree a whole lot with Farah, he takes some really strange positions. But they do get alot of their stories from other news agencies and given the increasing finds of this nature though, this wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be true.
Posted by: Silentbrick || 06/26/2004 18:00 Comments || Top||

#5  Even Debka's right once in a while...well, actually they've been picking up some good stuff lately.
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 18:02 Comments || Top||

#6  Actually the reason for the alerts is that atmospheric dispersion models indicate a high concentration of Gore-Moore gas moving towards the Middle East.
Posted by: Anymouse || 06/26/2004 18:51 Comments || Top||

#7  Looks like there might be something there. Debka's reporting U.S. troops on chem alert.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 19:00 Comments || Top||

#8  GM gas is not all that dangerous, it's much heavier that the atmospheric mix and tends to collect at ankle height. It's greenish-red and smells like the Nablus casabah.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 20:39 Comments || Top||


Filthy Infidels
After a year of waffling, a Sistani spokesman finally calls Musab al Zarqawi and Osama bin Laden filthy infidels. Wretchard at Belmont Club tells a tale of quagmire*:

The Grand Bumblers
People who really insist on characterizing US strategy and forces in Iraq as bumbling failures should really go back to 1995, in the golden era of Clintonian peace, where despite appearances all was not well. President Boris Yeltsin had attempted to reassert Russian influence over Chechnya by covert means. It failed and Chechen President Jokar Dudayev responded by parading captured Russian operatives on television. Unaccustomed to such cheek, the Russian President ordered his armies into the Chechen capital, Grozny, from three sides. Parameters describes what happened.

The first unit to penetrate to the city center was the 1st battalion of the 131st "Maikop" Brigade, the latter composed of some 1,000 soldiers (120 armored vehicles and 26 tanks) ... Russian forces initially met no resistance when they entered the city at noon on 31 December. They drove their vehicles straight to the city center, dismounted, and took up positions inside the train station. Other elements remained parked along a side street as a reserve force.

Sixty hours later, the unit had been wiped out. "By 3 January 1995, the brigade had lost nearly 800 men, 20 of 26 tanks, and 102 of 120 armored vehicles." It had been surrounded and despite urgent pleas for relief, been utterly destroyed. "Its commander, Colonel Ivan Savin and almost 1000 officers and men died and 74 were taken prisoners. As for the two Spetsnaz groups south of the city, they surrendered to the Chechens after having tried to survive without food for several days," one historian observed. A Russian soldier described what he saw as they approached the train station around where the "Maikop" Brigade had been.

En route to the Central Train Station, the streets are crammed with burnt and mangled hulks of "armor" and strewn with dead bodies. The bodies of our Slavic brothers, all that’s left of the Mikop Brigade, the one that "spooks" burnt and wiped out on the New Year’s Eve 95-96.

Whoever said "spooks" couldn’t fight forgot to tell the Russians. They met tactical methods which have since become refined and familiar. The sniper, the RPG ambush, the IED, and using civilians for cover. More from Parameters:

The principal Chechen city defense was the "defenseless defense." They decided that it was better not to have strong points, but to remain totally mobile and hard to find. Hit-and-run tactics made it difficult for the Russian force to locate pockets of resistance and impossible to bring their overwhelming firepower to bear against an enemy force. Russian firepower was diluted as a result and could be used only piecemeal. Chechen mobile detachments composed of one to several vehicles (usually civilian cars or jeeps) transported supplies, weapons, and personnel easily throughout the city. Chechens deployed in the vicinity of a school or hospital, fired a few rounds, and quickly left. The Russians would respond by shelling the school or hospital, but usually after the Chechens had gone. Civilians consequently viewed this action as Russians needlessly destroying vital facilities and endangering their lives, not realizing who had initiated the incident. The Chechen mobility and intimate knowledge of the city exponentially increased the effect of their "defenseless defense."

These methods were used in far greater force against American forces eight years later with a different result. US forces in Iraq defeated an entire multidivisional conventional army and fought a yearlong campaign against a more sophisticated version of the resistance the Russians encountered, in an area the size of California, abutted by two hostile countries for fewer deaths than the Russians bore in sixty hours over a few city blocks. These two map (1 & 2 ) sections showing the density of IEDs encountered in the Baghdad-Ramadi road corridor alone should tell the reader why terrorist groups were so confident in believing that America could be driven out of Iraq. It’s not that the enemy lacked the metal; its that the American targets were not cooperating. The Russians were brave but the American methods were better. The Strategy Page remarks:

It’s no accident that American tactics in Iraqi are remarkably like those in Israel. American officers and NCOs have been visiting Israel for years (usually in civilian clothes in the past decade) to observe and study the Israeli counter-terrorist tactics. This is kept quiet, but not secret. The Israeli tactics work, and have been widely adopted by American combat troops. ... The key to this ... is the greater use of intelligence (information gathered on what the armed Palestinians are up to and where they are), and using Israeli troops in high speed and unpredictable maneuvers. This is a classic military tactic. Using a combination of informers, electronic eavesdropping, overhead surveillance (cameras and spotters in helicopters) and constant analysis of Palestinian operations, the Israelis gain an information advantage over their opponents. They then use this edge to conduct raids to disrupt Palestinian combat operations.

Saddam Hussein, many people now forget was captured using operations research -- the logical analysis of information from all sources. The recent series precision strikes against terrorist safehouses in Fallujah are reminiscent of the Israeli helicopter strike tactic, except that Americans use way bigger bombs. And they are aimed, like the Israeli strikes, at leadership targets. But the Americans have one further weapon: they can wield the wedge of sectarian politics. The killers in the Sunni triangle, now on the payroll of Zarqawi, were saved from extermination in April 2004 by matching Shi’ite unrest in the south. But after the US pulled the wheels from Moqtada al-Sadr’s wagon and outmaneuvered the UN’s Lakhdar Brahimi’s attempts at constituting an Interim Government preferred by Kofi Annan, the strategy of Sunni noncooperation with the Coalition authorities backfired big-time. The new Iraqi government was going to be dominated by Shi’ites outwardly prepared to cooperate with America. What looked like a Shi’ite-Sunni deal to drive the US out of Iraq in April turned out to be a deal, all right, but not the kind the Al Qaeda had bargained for. An enraged Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s vowed to kill Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, murdered 100 Iraqis in a single day and probably engineered an attack on Shi’ite political party headquarters. Allawi responded by announcing a plan for checkpoints, a curfew, a ban on demonstrations and even hinted at declaring martial law. The man who had pleaded with America to lift the siege on Fallujah was all smiles at the news of the latest American precision strike. Zarqawi’s woes were compounded by Grand Ayatollah Ali al Sistani whose response to his offensive was pretty nearly blood-curdling.

At a Friday prayer meeting in Karbala, a spokesman for Grand Ayatollah Ali al Sistani told worshipers that Al Qaeda’s top leaders are "filthy infidels". He names Osama bin Laden and the Jordanian-born terrorist purportedly operating in Iraq, Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi. He says they are "bastards" who "nurture malignance" against Shiite Muslims. A prominent Shiite leader was assassinated in Iraq on Thursday night. Al Qaeda’s leadership is made up of Sunni Muslims from the Wahabi sect.

The Strategy Page thinks Zarqawi’s offensive is already failing. Despite the importation of fighters from all over the world and the use of weapons in numbers orders of magnitude greater than those directed at the Russian Maikiop brigade, the Jihadis have been unable to keep the inept Americans from creeping to within a hairsbreadth of installing a new government in the heart of Arabia.

* A tale of quagmire, that is, for the enemy. It’s clear that victory is in sight when Sistani’s men start saying things that could get them killed. They have belatedly recognized the strong horse in this situation, and that strong horse isn’t al Qaeda.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 5:05:08 PM || Comments || Link || [6 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
Pakistani Cabinet dissolves as Jamali (really) resigns
Pakistani Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali has announced his resignation from office and dissolved the Cabinet at a meeting of ruling party members. Mr Jamali's departure after a 19-month tenure follows months of speculation over his uneasy relationship with President Pervez Musharraf. Mr Jamali has nominated the president of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League (PML), Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, as his successor. However, that is apparently only for an interim period. Outgoing Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz will then take over as prime minister after about two months, Information Minister Sheikh Rashid says. "I have decided to resign immediately in the interest of the country and the party," Mr Jamali said. "I have nominated Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain as new prime minister." He says Cabinet ministers and advisors will submit their resignations. Mr Jamali says he has been "authorised" to announce Chaudhry Shujaat's name. "Chaudhry Shujaat will take [a] vote of confidence on Monday and we will all support him," he said. He says Shaukat Aziz will take the post of senior minister in the new set-up.

Mr Hussain paid tribute to Mr Jamali at the meeting, saying: "His name will go down in the history in golden words." Mr Jamali says his Government remains unblemished, adding that he has performed according to his ability and people will themselves judge how far he was successful. "My intention was pious and my conscience is clear," he said. Referring to speculation that had been circulating for more than a month about an in-house change and criticism from party members, he said: "I came to the conclusion that in the interest of the country and to save the party I should quit. It's not an easy thing to do, it needs courage."
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 4:59:51 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Bomb explodes near church in Pakistan
A homemade bomb exploded near a church in Kohlu, a small town 350 kilometres southwest of Quetta, damaging a boundary wall, police said on Friday. No one was injured. There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the explosion which occurred on Thursday night outside the church in Kohlu, said Azim Khan, a local police official. The explosion blew a hole in the wall but the building, which was empty at the time, was not damaged, the official said, adding that a bomb had exploded near the same church a year ago, also causing no injuries or damage.
Posted by: TS(vice girl) || 06/26/2004 5:00:54 PM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Moslem Murderers Hide in Mosque, Use 40 Women as Shields
From NDTV
... In an encounter in Pulwama district of Jammu and Kashmir ... security forces rescued 60 civilians, including 40 women who were trapped inside a mosque in Litter village of Pulwama district. [Two] militants had taken shelter in the mosque .... as security forces launched massive house-to-house searches to nab the gunmen involved in the gruesome murder of an IRCON engineer Sudhir Kumar Pundir and his brother yesterday. The militants opened fire on the advancing securitymen and after a brief gunbattle, security forces rescued the trapped civilians from the mosque.

In the meantime, the militants escaped from the mosque and took shelter in a nearby residential house and opened fire on the troops, killing a jawan and wounding an officer. In the retaliatory fire, two unidentified militants were killed inside the house. ... Earlier this morning, security forces sealed off three more villages including Sagoo-Handhama from where police recovered the blood-soaked bodies of the IRCON engineer and his brother yesterday.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 06/26/2004 4:58:00 PM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I can identify, I grew up in a Litter town too.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 17:51 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Call To Replace The P.A.
Col. (res.) Benny Michelson, who was the head of the IDF history department, said today that in order to maintain the army's achievements vis-a-vis Palestinian terrorism, it is necessary to reinstate military rule in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Michelson explained to Arutz-7 his view that Yasser Arafat and his gang, as well as the Egyptians and the Europeans, do not intend to provide the Arabs of Yesha with basic services. "Only the IDF is able to do so," said Michelson, "and this will change the conditions that have created an ideological hothouse for terrorism. " "Halting terrorist attacks is only a tactical matter, but [reinstalling] the military administration," Michelson said, "will change the strategic situation."
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 4:46:37 PM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:

#1  wishful thinking. Paleos exceed even the Iraqis for ingrate behavior, no matter if the Israelis help out or not, there's "gonna be some seething goin' on"
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 18:19 Comments || Top||

#2  I dunno Frank, the guy makes a lot of sense to me. The current generation is certainly lost, but I think one of the only hopes for the future would be to take education out of the hands of the terroroists and put paleo children in some special Israeli-run schools for serious (and much-needed) re-education.
Posted by: Scooter McGruder || 06/26/2004 19:51 Comments || Top||

#3  Anytime some young fella asks me what to do about this situation I always reply,

Higher Walls, Lotsa Barbwire, More Minefields.
Posted by: Tom T Hallstein || 06/26/2004 20:52 Comments || Top||

#4  To those on the anti-Israeli leftist collaborators with the jihadees: If where you people lurk in America was being bombed on a daily basis, you too would take whatever security measures to prevent a continuance of Islamic madness.

Higher, thicker, Higher, thicker and electrify all of it! Fried dishrags!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 22:24 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Arab TV Reports 3 Turks Kidnapped in Iraq
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 13:24 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Link doesn't work for me . . .
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/26/2004 13:53 Comments || Top||

#2  I wonder if there is an IQ test to be in al Quaeda? Once upon a time, there was a story that the mental test for draftees into the South Vietnamese Army was to attempt to place a 6 inch diameter ring over their heads. If it fit, they were deemed to not have sufficient mental capacity for military service. Given the pinheads in al Quaeda, maybe they should consider something similar. Declaring war on the Turks is not smart.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 13:56 Comments || Top||

#3  Fox Link should work.....
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 13:57 Comments || Top||

#4  Hope they spring these guys safely -- but what an idiotic demand, even by islamo-nut standards. They want Turkish companies to leave Iraq. Yeah, right. Turkey's gonna surrender one of its best contiguous markets, uh huh. While it's true one doesn't mess with the Turks lightly, in Iraq they're hamstrung by the general (and in Kurdistan, intense) dislike for anything smacking of official as opposed to commercial Turkish meddling.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Turkish press is going to be devoting a lot of column inches to "why do they hate us?" thumbsuckers ....
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 14:12 Comments || Top||

#5  Verlaine - whyever not? ;-)

How are the LLL going to excuse this one? Turks aren't "Westerners" or "crusaders" "meddling" in Middle Eastern Arabs' affairs.

Wonder how Al-Jiz will spin it when these murdering fucknozzles cut off the heads of fellow moslems?

Dan Blather, Mikey Moore, and John F'ing Kerry are already working together to find a way to blame America. Their answer in 5, 4, 3...
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 15:17 Comments || Top||

#6  Fucknozzles ? That's a new one. And a good one.
Posted by: Crikey || 06/26/2004 16:15 Comments || Top||

#7  Can't claim credit, Crikey - I think it came from Misha.

Also "murdering crapweasels."

Misha definitely has a way with words. :-p
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 16:18 Comments || Top||

#8  Barbara's right - if they behead these Turks as they are threatening to do it will show yet again that AlQuada doesn't care about anyone and will further tick off Muslims, the Turks, and others.
Posted by: AWW || 06/26/2004 16:51 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Breaking: Israel snuffs Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brig. Leader in West Bank
Israeli troops killed five Palestinians on Saturday during a raid in this West Bank city, Palestinian officials said. The army has been operating in Nablus since Wednesday in an effort at rooting out Palestinian militants. Nablus, the West Bank's largest city, is a center of militant activity. The army did not immediately comment.

More, from Jerusalem Post...
Paratroopers in determined operations against terrorist infrastructure in the Nablus Casbah killed at least nine Palestinian gunmen and terrorist leaders over the weekend, including five senior commanders in one vicious ambush. There were no serious IDF casualties, but seven soldiers were treated for smoke inhalation after a storeroom with explosives they found caught fire, the army said. During the operation, the IDF troops swept through the Casba, blowing open doors or using sledgehammers to knock them down. Palestinian reports said soldier sealed some alleys with cement blocks and barbed wire to trap the fugitives inside. The army slapped a full curfew on the city since the operation began early Thursday.

Nablus Fatah Tanzim head Nayef Abu Sharkh was shot along with five other Palestinians – all Popular Front and Islamic Jihad senior members by soldiers who arrived at their hiding place, in which the five were holed up. The troops found the terrorists following intelligence gained from an armed Palestinian captured earlier, reported Army Radio. The terrorists killed include Jafer el-Massari, the commander of Hamas' military wing (Izzadin El Kassam) and Fadi Bagit, the commander of the Islamic Jihad's El-Quds (Jerusalem) Platoons. The three were in a secret tunnel behind a bathroom wall, military sources said. One wounded survivor was captured and taken in for medical treatment and interrogation. Paratroopers came upon the hidden room as a result of an earlier clash with two gunmen in the Casba. The troops shot dead one of the gunmen. The other escaped but was observed fleeing into what he thought was a hideaway.
"Boss! Boss! Lemme in! They're after me!"
"Ssssh! Ssssh! Ixnay! Beat it! Go hide someplace else!"
"Saaay, Mahmoud! You havin' a conversation with that wall?"
When the troops approached they discovered a secret room and called on those hiding inside to surrender.
"Come out witcher hands up!"
"You'll never take us alive, infidels!"
"Hokay."
When they refused soldiers tossed inside hand grenades and opened fire with machine guns. It was not clear if the Palestinians fired back. Military sources said that besides the five bodies and the wounded Palestinian, soldiers found inside the hidden room a number of bombs and weapons. A fire began and some soldiers suffered from the smoke and were treated.
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 13:14 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  W00T!
Posted by: Charles || 06/26/2004 13:15 Comments || Top||

#2  "hey! you wanted to be a martyr!"
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 13:23 Comments || Top||

#3  Enjoy hell.
Posted by: Chris W. || 06/26/2004 13:51 Comments || Top||

#4  Like a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the sea, it's a good start.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 13:58 Comments || Top||

#5  we mourn your passing...NOT!
Posted by: Anonymous5401 || 06/26/2004 14:03 Comments || Top||

#6  Looks like a:
very major mopup
Posted by: marek || 06/26/2004 14:14 Comments || Top||

#7  J. Post reports the Nablus Tanzim commander plus the West Bank Islamic Jihad chief were iced, along with some horse-holders, after being found in a hide-out.

IDF name for the op is "Local Pressure," interesting but unusual (perhaps something lost in translation there).

Palestinian terror groups are in free fall, Israelis are running up the score. It's not getting much attention, what with the 178th story on Abu Ghraib that doesn't add any important info, and the mighty Iraqi resistance launching its mighty offensive (snicker).

Arafish has proposed an "Olympic truce" with Israel. As before, aside from the bloodshed and suffering that are the underlying issues, the Palestinian gangsters in extremis are pretty damn funny. Sort of like Hitler proposing a truce as the Soviets advanced on Berlin.
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 14:20 Comments || Top||

#8  Alas, poor Abdool, we knew him not...
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 14:45 Comments || Top||

#9  < mr burns >Excellent.< /mr burns >
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats || 06/26/2004 14:50 Comments || Top||

#10  Well, now all those unemployed Palestinians can occupy themselves with a couple of big funerals. What a nice reminder for them of exactly where their "leadership" is leading them to.
Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 15:01 Comments || Top||

#11  Link doesn't work.

Was there the obligatory car-swarm?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 15:21 Comments || Top||

#12  Aaah - Who's got the franchise on paint scrapers and steel-wool pads in the area?

"But I was supposed to dupe others to seek the 72 vestial virgins, not seek them myself!
Hey, who's that angry red guy with a tail?"
Posted by: BigEd || 06/26/2004 15:22 Comments || Top||

#13 
#2
That's why they don't call it the al-Aqsa Survivors' Brigades...
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 16:44 Comments || Top||

#14  Now, of course, Sharkhey has to explain his actions and kill-the-Jews incitements to a Jewish carpenter.
Posted by: Korora || 06/26/2004 16:47 Comments || Top||

#15  Maybe we'll see the first tunnel-swarm.
Posted by: Stephen || 06/26/2004 16:49 Comments || Top||

#16  #11 Barb, car-swarms seem to be a Gaza thing. Maybe it will be a trend which moves to Judea and Samaria (I stopped calling that area the 'West Bank" recently).

We can only hope!
Posted by: Brett_the_Quarkian || 06/26/2004 16:52 Comments || Top||

#17  I dunno, but isn't the death of the Hamas and al-Quds guy of more import? Or was this guy THE head of al-Aqsa? (Plz someone tell me the order of rank among the three guys)

P.S. I graduated high school yesterday!
Posted by: Edward Yee || 06/26/2004 19:46 Comments || Top||

#18  congrats!
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 20:00 Comments || Top||

#19  Edward.
Congratulations. Wish you much success in your next endeavor.
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 20:40 Comments || Top||

#20  Palestinian reports said soldier sealed some alleys with cement blocks and barbed wire to trap the fugitives inside.

Hmmmm sounds like the Edgar Allen Poe Brigade is on the move.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 20:55 Comments || Top||

#21  Missed it first round, congratulations Edward! Keep moving! And remember, serpentine motion! Enjoy life! That's why you're here.

Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 20:57 Comments || Top||

#22  Ship! Nice cask on you! Like Port?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 21:00 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Iraqi Insurgents Are Surprisingly Cohesive, Armitage Says
Officials in the State and Defense departments told senators yesterday that they know relatively little about the enemy in Iraq but they believe thousands of hidden fighters are more organized than previously thought and are likely to continue deadly attacks in coming weeks and months.
If they know "little," as opposed to "relatively little," they should give us a call...
Admitting that U.S. officials have underestimated the insurgency, Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage told the Senate Armed Services Committee that a series of attacks across Iraq in recent days indicate that the attackers have a "central nervous system" that is showing increased coordination and effectiveness.
We coulda told them that last year...
While the U.S. military expects heightened violence as Iraq approaches the transfer of limited power to an interim government next week, the sophistication of recent attacks has come as a bit of a surprise, according to testimony yesterday... But what was previously envisioned as a faltering insurgency has evolved into a significant security problem and a largely unknown quantity.
Zarqawi's got an operation that spans continents and he has tight ties to Iran and to al-Qaeda, as well as to Hezbollah and Chechnya. How unknown is that? It's all documented, open source...
Armitage said he expects those who carried out recent attacks to "reload and try again," predicting they will "really exercise themselves" in coming months.
That's an easy call.
The enemy is now using car bombs and more conventional warfare in targeting government officials and the new Iraqi police force, and senators heard yesterday that well-financed extremist leaders appear to be recruiting unemployed young men with the promise of a paycheck. Officials said yesterday that some of the ongoing attacks appear to be organized out of Fallujah, where officials believe extremists are hiding amid civilians.
Wolfowitz should be fired-on the spot. One year after the war and he can’t answer who the enemy is, the numbers of enemies, where they are coming from. Wolfowitz is a failure and has no business being in the Defense Dept. Perhaps he can find a job in the Las Vegas casinos or as a stock trader where guessing is exceptable. Who is going to re-elect George Bush when his architect of the Iraq war, Wolfowitz, cannot even cough up a deadline for withdrawal of troops? Indefinitely is the only answer that his muddled brain can come up with??? Wrongo, bucko, back to the drawing board.
We don't have a deadline for withdrawal of troops from Europe yet. We don't have one for withdrawal of troops from Korea yet. We don't have one for withdrawal from Japan yet. And it's Armitage speaking, not Wolfowitz. My guess is that there are dozens, maybe hundreds of Bad Boy groups that provide cannon fodder for Zarqawi's core. Up until Sammy was captured I think there were multiple cores and since then they've been coalescing. Tater tried to establish his own core, and the Medes and the Persians let him give it a try, even though they've got to know he's a loose cannon. I'm surprised that SCIRI seems to have turned into a relatively reasonable political organization, though that might have something to do with the assassination of Hakim last year. If Armitage doesn't know this then there's something dreadfully wrong. I don't think Armitage is saying what he knows, either.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 4:39:54 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Rex, how can you breathe with your head so firmly planted up your ass?

Stupid Moby.
Posted by: Robert Crawford || 06/26/2004 11:42 Comments || Top||

#2  Wolfowitz, huh? Article's about Armitage. If you intend to post a Wolf-bashing agenda, post articles that match, at least?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:46 Comments || Top||

#3  Yikes - looks like the short bus unloaded
Posted by: Crikey || 06/26/2004 12:41 Comments || Top||

#4  Before anyone starts dissing me for blaming Wolfowitz unfairly, I think it would be prudent if you read the article instead of reacting with your "we love Wolfie" knee jerk response. My post has been heavily edited by the moderator, I might add, and in so doing the moderator has deleted the Wolfowitz's testimony.

Everyone was happy went George Tenet was fired because he provided GWB with faulty WMD intelligence. The buck stopped at Tenet's desk, as it should have. But when it comes to Wolfowitz, in some people's minds, Wolfowitz is infallible and is a godlike visionary.

I'd suggest that you measure Wolfowitz by the results and not because he is Jewish. Wolfowitz did not get his job in the Defense Dept on the basis of his religion. He was hired to perform. He has not done this and is turning into an albatross for George Bush. Wolfowitz needs to resign or be fired before the November election.

As for Armitage, in my original post, which I said has been heavily modified to the extent I can't remeber what I wrote, I believe I said that Wolfowitz should be fired and he should take his pal from State with him. The whole State Dept is useless so fire Armitage who cares about State? Armitage is not the architect of the war. The general public can't remeber Armitage's name from the salesman who comes to their door and sells magazines, BUT Wolfowitz, I guarantee you, J.Q. Public knows if Rummey's #2 man and is the neocon who devised the Iraq invasion. Because Wolfowitz has that kind of visibility and recognizability he needs to go. It's the person who designed this war, who is testifying that he does not know anything more about the enemy in Iraq now than Aunt Edith from Kansas City knows - that person should be fired and that person is Wolfowitz. I rest my case.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 12:47 Comments || Top||

#5  As usual, WaPo is putting its editorials on the news pages, giving us another one of its "quagmire" stories. And Rex, who should know that WaPo has no credibility around here, is mobying around, looking to stick pins in the Bush administration. Like I said earlier - Wolfowitz isn't to blame - the buck stops at GWB's desk. I suspect that like his liberal cohorts, Rex thinks that GWB is too dumb to make his own decisions. Based on his criticism of Tenet, Rex probably also thinks that the reason for invading Iraq was WMD's. Well, Rex, if you think the only justifiable reason for invading Iraq was WMD's, you should vote for Kerry.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 14:00 Comments || Top||

#6  Let's see, the "insurgents" have been launching "increasingly sophisticated" operations since, oh, about last August, according to US officials. This has been noted about twice per week in the major media since that time. So by now, with nearly a year of "increasingly sophisticated" operations, why isn't the enemy using directed-energy weapons from space platforms?

A friend who's on the ground intel side working all these issues (IEDs, ambushes) laughed at this line, and it turned out others in his section have been saying the same thing for months. They attribute the "increasing sophistication" line to way too many analysts working on just a few problems, plus the standard negative sensationalism beloved of the press. Aside from the mechanics of IEDs and some apparent operational tips suspected of being brought in by Chechens, there hasn't been much change. The coordination issue is sort of real, though the scope and scale of operations the enemy can mount are so limited that even that is not a game-changer. If all you can do is take a police station for 90 minutes while losing 2/3 of your guys, it's not so important that you can do it in Ramadi and Samarra the same morning.

Car bombs, assassinations, and hired hands are all old stories. It's hard to distinguish the separate elements of government coyness, government incompetence, and typical bad journalism here.

I'm a bit surprised we haven't gone on a major offensive starting last week. The Iraqis clearly need more time to get up to speed, even though there were some encouraging performances in Mosul and elsewhere.

If the bad guys can't mount something about 5 times as big as Thursday's festivities in the coming week, that'll show they're pretty weak. The realization that this is essentially a civil war with foreign meddling seems to be dawning in more Iraqi minds, so that part of the transition is moving very smartly. If the Iraqis can build on that with some aggressiveness and competence at the street level, the doomed insurgency will be snuffed more quickly.
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 14:02 Comments || Top||

#7  all that working out has made the microcephalic armitage's brain shrink as well as his head
Posted by: SON OF TOLUI || 06/26/2004 14:05 Comments || Top||

#8  WaPo: the sophistication of recent attacks has come as a bit of a surprise, according to testimony yesterday

That's like saying the size of the Tet attacks in Vietnam came as a bit of a surprise. The fact is that guerrillas can choose the time and place of an attack. What they can't control is the American response to it, which is likely to be swift and overwhelming. During Tet, the US lost 1,600 men in exchange for an estimated 50,000 Vietcong dead, who were so numerous they had to be buried in mass graves. And this was mostly a draftee force fighting against some of the most skilled guerrillas the modern world has seen. Can anyone doubt that Iraqi insurgents are licking their wounds after street battles fought against our professionals? The KIA figures are telling - March (39), April (131), May (65), June Month-to-Date (39).* If this is the best the jihadis can manage with their "increasingly sophisticated" attacks, they're in deep doo-doo.

* Note that I don't quote pro-coalition Iraqi casualty figures. That's because I don't see them as a problem. Tribal vengeance strikes both ways. Iraqi casualties are an asset - in the Arab fashion, they are blood debts that give the pro-coalition tribes a concrete reason to strike back at the insurgents. Besides, I don't see Iraqis as having paid much of a price relative to our South Vietnamese allies in the Vietnam War, where they lost 5 KIA to every American KIA for a total of 250,000 dead during the war, or about 4,000 killed per month. When I hear of 10 pro-coalition Iraqi military dead per day in Iraq, I'll believe the Iraqis are really making a contribution.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 14:29 Comments || Top||

#9  rex, you love to complain about Wolfowitz (the Evil Prince of the Dreaded "Neo-Con" Cabal around President Bush), but Armitage is a State Department tool of the first water!

To all my fave RBers, which is the rest of you: I love you guys!
Posted by: Jen || 06/26/2004 14:34 Comments || Top||

#10  And Rex, who should know that WaPo has no credibility around here, is mobying around, looking to stick pins in the Bush administration.
No, I am not mobying around, whatever that means, mr. armchair soldier. I am stating fact. And in this article the Washington Post was quoting testimony. If you don't believe the testimony quoted, request a transcript from the Senate Armed Services committee and compare. If Wolfowitz were working in your company and produced such poor results based on dated academic knowledge, he would be fired. Give me a break.

Like I said earlier - Wolfowitz isn't to blame - the buck stops at GWB's desk.
Duh...that's what many American voters might believe too, and if Wolfowitz does not take the fall now, who do you think will get blamed in November???

I suspect that like his liberal cohorts,
Wrong, bucko, I am not liberal. I loathe liberals. And in fact, that is why I hold neocons with suspicion unless they prove themselves otherwise inclined, I think most neocons are liberals at heart.

Rex thinks [ do you read minds? I'll do my own thinking. I don't need you as an interpreter, but thanks for the offer] that GWB is too dumb to make his own decisions.
GWB relies heavily on delegation of authority and feedback from his managers. He is a CEO type of president and based on his experience in the business world, although GWB makes the final decision it's very likely based on what the majority of his trusted managers think. That's how CEO's run firms. Business 101, zhang.

Also with regards to Iraq, GWB's born again Christianity, likely played heavily in his optimism about the support he would receive from the "liberated" Iraqis.

Based on his criticism of Tenet,
Say what??? Tenet should have been fired on 9/12/01. In fact, Tenet being a hold over from Clinton days, should have been replaced as soon as GWB moved into the WH, on the very basis that everyone including GWB knew that Clinton was ineffective in fighting terrorism, and Tenet would similarly have been judged ineffective too.
One of the major reasons quoted by Powell was WMD and the fear that Saddam was not meeting the UN resolutions because he did not want us to find those WMD. Have you had ear plugs in your ears? Tenet's department proved faulty intelligence to GWB, which was one of the cited underpinings for the Iraq invasion. Of course he deserved to be fired. Is there any doubt????

Rex probably also thinks that the reason for invading Iraq was WMD's.
Well, yes, it was one of the cited reasons. Weren't you ever listening to Colin Powell and Rumsfeld defending themselves against the fact that they could not find WMD and they were both surprised at this anomaly?

Well, Rex, if you think the only justifiable reason for invading Iraq was WMD's, you should vote for Kerry.
I never said WMD was the only reason. But it sure was a major reason that was cited by the WH. You think we should expend 80 Billion dollars and 900 GI lives just to liberate people who it turns out hate us for the most part, except for the Kurds? Does that make good sense to you? Thanks but no thanks America has better things to do with tax money and with soldiers' lives.You want to play social worker with the downtrodden in the world, do it on your own dime, zheng, and with your own life. Ditto for playing Johnny Appleseed with democracy in hellholes in the ME on the 1 out of 100 percent chance that Muslims are capable of embracing democracy. Muslims have never supported a democracy in thousands of years[oh yes, there's that smashing example called Turkey] and suddenly we are to have blind faith in the wild eyed hope that Iraq will be different. Stop drinking that Kool Aid, zhang.

Quit putting words in my mouth. If you want to debate me, use the words I say and not the words YOU THINK I said.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 14:54 Comments || Top||

#11  Yes, Wolfowitz is the architect of the Iraq War. And maybe you should read the article and Wolfowitz's testimony which was edited out by the moderator, Jen , before you defend Wolfowiz. I do not understand this "amore" for Wolfowitz. If he were working in Sharon's cabinet, he would have been fired months ago. What's this cult affection for Wolfowitz? He has proven to be as ineffectual as Tenet and should be fired. He is a liability to GWB and if you can't see that fact, I think it's you that have blinders, not me. Fire Armitage, too. I have no problem with that. But it's Wolfowitz who will bring GWB down in November, not Armitage. Don't deceive yourself otherwise.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 15:00 Comments || Top||

#12  Rex: I never said WMD was the only reason. But it sure was a major reason that was cited by the WH. You think we should expend 80 Billion dollars and 900 GI lives just to liberate people who it turns out hate us for the most part, except for the Kurds?

It has never been my position that liberating the Iraqis or finding WMD's were particularly important reasons for invading Iraq. The administration says what it does because that's the reality of diplomacy. The hidden agenda is to scare the crap out of the Muslim regimes the world over. If the US had told the world about this reason up-front, then governments the world over would have organized against us, as they did against the Soviets when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. Think of the Iraqi insurgents armed with billions of dollars of the latest European and Russian weapons donated and shipped in through Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

We don't tell everyone what we're really after in the same way we don't tell workers about to be laid off that we're firing them because they're a bunch of dysfunctional slackers - we don't want them coming back with AK-47's. No - we're letting them go because of competition from Mexico. That's the reality of diplomacy - we leave out important truths to prevent neutrals from either becoming enemies or joining forces with our enemies.

Rex: No, I am not mobying around, whatever that means, mr. armchair soldier.

Armchair appeasers like you have caused the deaths of 4,000 Americans (including those killed in Afghanistan and Iraq). I make no apologies for requiring that our armed forces carry out its basic mission - which is to kill those of America's enemies that are threatening us, either directly or indirectly through sponsoring terrorist attacks. America's diplomats have bounced from one failure to another, resulting in 9/11 and the emergence of the nuclear powers North Korea and Iran - the time for talk is over.

Like I said, national security is everyone's responsibility, even Rex's. If a general mobilization order comes around, I will serve. If called upon, will Rex run away like the little armchair appeaser he is? Maybe he can follow in the footsteps of Mel Gibson's dad, and spend the rest of his life ranting against Jews, from Australia.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 15:19 Comments || Top||

#13  Are you coming unhinged, zhang? I have never ranted against Jews. I support Israel 100%, unlike many liberal Jews as a matter of fact. I just don't believe that incompetence should bve tolerated just because the incompetent person is Jewish. And I resent your putting words in my mouth that I have never said. Take a chill pill and start reading what people say, and not imagine what they say. How do you know what I would or would not do in a major war?
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 15:24 Comments || Top||

#14  Rex: Are you coming unhinged, zhang? I have never ranted against Jews. I support Israel 100%, unlike many liberal Jews as a matter of fact. I just don't believe that incompetence should bve tolerated just because the incompetent person is Jewish.

Now Wolfowitz is merely incompetent? From your earlier writings, I thought he was a war-lover and a draft-dodger.

Rex: Take a chill pill and start reading what people say, and not imagine what they say. How do you know what I would or would not do in a major war?

What you would or would not do in a major war? Sounds pretty Clintonite to me. My basic position is that if Uncle Sam asks me to report for duty, I'll show up. Rex requires a major war of his definition before he'll show. Sounds real Gibson-like to me.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 15:37 Comments || Top||

#15  Iraqi Insurgents Are Surprisingly Cohesive...

Yep, it's true. Their bodies don't come apart half as much as Syrian insurgent's do when hit by .50 cal.
Posted by: Zpaz || 06/26/2004 16:22 Comments || Top||

#16  These WaPo editorials masquerading as news remind me of liberal arts majors taking math classes in college when they are called upon to answer questions - all words and no numbers delivered glibly even though the answer was wrong. Instead of looking at the numbers, which are the true measure of success, they rely on anecdotal information slanted a certain way to infer that the enemy is winning and our boys are losing. Why do they do this? Whether it's incompetence or anti-Americanism is irrevelant - the fact is that the information we get from them is nothing more and nothing less than enemy propaganda, and we should treat it as such.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 17:36 Comments || Top||

#17  Officials in the State and Defense departments told senators yesterday that they know relatively little about the enemy in Iraq but they believe thousands of hidden fighters are more organized than previously thought and are likely to continue deadly attacks in coming weeks and months.

If these guys "know relatively little" about the enemy, why even say anything? Guessing isn't going to be of much value. Why not say, "we can't offer any comment at this time"?
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama || 06/26/2004 17:46 Comments || Top||

#18  rex, You provide no details, explanation or evidence that Wolfowitz is incompetent because you can't.
Typical poorly read Liberal: Just repeat your talking points over and over.
(And you forgot to bash Richard Perle! Don't you hate him, too?)
The fact that we took Iraq militarily in 3 weeks and are about to install a new Saddam- and torture-free government next week that will have women and Kurds, Shiites and Sunni Baathists governing together speaks volumes that Wolfie's and Rummy's plans have been a huge Success!
Posted by: Jen || 06/26/2004 18:00 Comments || Top||

#19  Eveur thing is beautiful!
In it's own way!
Posted by: Ray Harpi Stevens || 06/26/2004 20:43 Comments || Top||

#20  This may come as a big surprise to you, Jen, but most people, myself included, don't "hate" or "love" public figures. Maybe that's how you go through life, but I don't, so don't project your emotional reactions to public figures on me.

In my humble objective opinion, [is that clear enough to you?]I think Wolfowitz should resign because he is steadily becoming a greater liability to GWB. The DNC probably would love to have Wolfowitz stay, just like they loved that Tenet stayed. In fact, the Democrats, if you recall, were all choked up about Tenet's resignation. Get it? It serves the DNC's cause to have liabilities surround GWB.

Someone has to take the bullet for the mess in Iraq, and it is a mess, dear, and it's either got to be Rumsfeld or Wolfowitz to take the fall. Rumsfeld is a more engaging ex-military persona-he's telegenic and I think the public likes him. Wolfowitz, on the otherhand, is distant, not warm, he's an academic with no military experience and he is the most clearly recognizable "point man" for this airy fairy idea that it is America's mandate to spread democracy like Johnny Appleseed to Iraq.

You may like that theory, Jen, but it's not an something that J.Q. Public relates to or agrees with. Liberating 26 million Iraqis IS NOT IMPORTANT TO MOST AMERICANS. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? Especially when those same Iraqis hate Americans[except for the Kurds] and money is being diverted from the USA to Iraq. What does America get out of this? And puhleaze don't tell me about how Iraq will be the role model for other Muslim countries and how our GI's will use Iraq as a magnet for terrorists and keep America out of the sights of terrorists. Iraq is iffy, and even if it becomes a successful democracy it will take 100's of years to have this happen. Furthermore, terrorists are still plotting horrible things for America. This country is not off the radar for Al Queda. If our country's security was so improved due to the Iraq War, John Ashcroft would have disbanded the terrorism alert system, yes?? He hasn't.

Wolfowitz should have anticipated and developed contingency plans for Iraq. He didn't. It's obvious. What details do you want me to provide? Don't you read? He had no idea how much it would cost to stabilize Iraq. GWB is always going back begging for more $. Wolfowitz had no clue about how many troops we'd need to "occupy" Iraq, and as a result Rumsfeld have had to issue "stop orders" to GI's and he's had to extend stays of the National Guard. Wolfowitz has no clue about the approximate date when we will withdraw troops from Iraq-this mmumbling about "as long as it takes" may satisfy you but for most Americans that sounds like something a muddled incompetent would say. Is it 2 years? 5 yearss ? 10 years? 20 years? 100 years? he's #2 in the Defense Separtment-can't he hazard a guess? Wolfowitz was unprepared for what transpired in Najef or Fallujah. He had no clue that ordinary Iraqis would tolerate terrorists in their midst. Look at the flip flops and miscues in dealing with Najef and Fallujah. Is this list long enough for you? If Wolfowitz tried to pull this off in business, he would have been fired in short order.

Wolfowitz is an ACADEMIC. He has experience with ideas, not with battlefield experience. Wolfowitz was an Ambassador in Indonesia 13 years ago and this dated and limited experience was proof enough to Wolfowitz that Asian Muslims could be allies and could embrace democracy. Say what????Read this guy's assumptions about what Muslims want. It's bizarre. he's in la-la-la land because he's a theorist, he's an academic. He was wrong, obviously as it applies to Sunni/Shiite Iraqis.
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-se1422.html
When evil of this magnitude is loose in the world, it will not stop until it has claimed for itself the ultimate power of wrenching from people across the globe any sense of peace and security they now enjoy. Unchecked, this evil will spread. It threatens not only America. It threatens hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims in East Asia who are among the principal targets of the terrorists. And it threatens the fundamental dreams of freedom and tolerance and democracy that embody what the terrorists hate.
How can he so sure? This is a broad generalization about a religious group that he dreamed up when he was a valued US representative, a "visitor", to one region of the world. This guy has no business using a one size fits all THEORY about Muslims.

Wolfowitz mis-judged Iraqis. He needs to accept the responsibility. I have no opinion about Perle-he's not even in GWB's cabinet, what does Perle have to do with the upcoming November election? Focus, please, Jen.

As for you Zhang, I've spent way too much time answering your emotionally laced impressionistic comments about what I have never said or what you think I would do in a hypothetical situation. You obviously don't care to read my posts before you respond. I will not waste my time on someone who chooses not to debate issues with fact or ideas, but just put-downs and innuendos.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 22:18 Comments || Top||

#21  Troll'jan (noun)

A) overtly the induhvidual is apparently rational, reasonable, and likely articulate; uses spell-checker on one-word posts; posts to establish credibility focused primarily on:
1) anti-jihadi spew to establish outrage thus humanity
2) lauds military to establish unquestioned patriotic stance
3) when on meds only mildly critical of US policy - a low-grade spew designed to plant doubts, questions; avoids tirade mode

B) this induhvidual is wracked by pressure differential between external highly moderated persona and internal dysfunctional schizophrenia; when off meds or pressure overload breaks seal, remarkably disingenuous and irrational spew are ejected; Oreo: vanilla cookies with bile-cream center

C) Stealth BushHitler Syndrome
Posted by: .com || 06/26/2004 23:07 Comments || Top||

#22  Gosh. Thanks a lot, .com. I just pulled something.

(...uses spell-checker on one-word posts...no worries, it only hurts when I laugh...)
Posted by: Quana || 06/26/2004 23:16 Comments || Top||

#23  Well put .com!
And if you dare call them on that, they will accuse you of being totally brainwashed by the extreme right whose gran Kahuna is Bush, of course. I wonder if any of them can imagine what it would be like to be in Bush's and some of his cabinet member's shoes and having to make decisions that could have grave consequences not just for the US but for a great part of the world.
Posted by: Anonymous4617 || 06/26/2004 23:30 Comments || Top||

#24  Zhang Fei usually speaks great sense and has a good sense of real politik.

Zhang makes a great point about Diplomacy and the real reasons for going to Iraq.

But rex makes a tight case for firing Wolfowitz.

GWB does not need any non-performers in his management team. If he is a dud, chuck him on the rubbish pile!

.com added nothing to the debate except to attack the man not the argument.

Perhaps an appeal to authority would work as it has in the past. Rex, simply say you work in Iraq for the WH, that should satisfy .com.

.com, what do you think serves the cause better? a) agreeing with keeping a dud around because you must be a troll if you question his competence? Or b) agreeing with firing the dud and getting top people on your team?

team b) will defeat team a) in any competition at any time in any given place because they aren't subject to emotive, totalitarian ideas about not criticising/questioning your own position and thus making it stronger and tougher.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/27/2004 4:06 Comments || Top||


Senior Cleric Assassinated
From Healing Iraq...
I just heard that Sistani's spokesman announced that one of the four most senior clerics of the Najaf Hawza has been assassinated. He also launched a strong verbal attack against Al-Qaeda. Since it is obvious that it wasn't Sistani, then we have one of the other three, Sayyid Bashir Al-Najafi, Sayyid Mohammed Ishaq Al-Fayyadh, or Sayyid Mohammed Sa'id Al-Hakim. This isn't good at all.
Posted by: tipper || 06/26/2004 10:44 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  must be the Infidels and Jooooos? How's Al-Sadr doing, hmmm?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 13:01 Comments || Top||

#2  My guess is that, if Alawi is as smart as he appears to be, Moqtada al Sadr won't live out the month of July. He may go boom; he may develop inappropriate ventilation; or he may simply disappear, but he will be gone by August.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 14:08 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Punks pot Punjab pol
Lahore: Gunmen opened fire on a car carrying a local opposition leader in this eastern Pakistani city Saturday, killing him and two other men, police said. Bin Yamin Rizvi, a senior figure in the Pakistan Muslim League-N party, was slain less than a mile from his party's office in Lahore's upscale Garden Town residential neighborhood, city police chief Tariq Saleem said. The two other men killed with him in the same car were not immediately identified. All the victims died at the scene of the shooting, Saleem said. The two assailants were on a motorcycle and sped away.
The Motorcycles of Doom™ strike again...
There was no claim of responsibility for the attack, and Saleem said it was too early to speculate on who was involved. The Pakistan Muslim League-N is the party of Pakistan's former prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, who was toppled by current president Gen. Pervez Musharraf in a coup in 1999. Sharif is living in exile in Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:31:12 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Predicatable: Paki pres Perv prays.
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 11:06 Comments || Top||

#2  Good work on the title, Fred! I can't say it very fast, though.
Posted by: Matt || 06/26/2004 12:19 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Nine Die As Insurgents Hit Baqouba, Iraq
Insurgents launched attacks in the strife-ridden city of Baqouba on Saturday, and nine people died, six of them insurgents, U.S. and Iraqi officials said. Attacks occurred in other cities north and south of Baghdad. The attacks in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, came only two days after U.S. tanks and jets routed insurgents who assaulted police stations and government offices in the city as part of a widespread offensive that killed about 100 people nationwide. In the Saturday attacks, rebels targeted offices of two political parties — one of them run by Iraq's prime minister — a police station and a government building in Baqouba. U.S. soldiers and Iraqi security forces took up defensive positions across the city, the center of Iraq's orange-growing region. A taxi apparently filled with weapons and ammunition blew up a street about 250 yards from one of the political party offices that was attacked earlier, witnesses reported.

Elsewhere, insurgents killed two Iraqi National Guardsmen in an ambush in Mahmoudiyah, about 20 miles south of Baghdad. A police officer was also killed in a separate attack Saturday, said the director of the Mahmoudiyah general hospital, Dawoud al-Taei. A car bomb exploded Saturday in the Kurdish stronghold of Irbil, injuring the culture minister of the pro-American Kurdistan Democratic Party and killing his bodyguard and injuring 18 people — four of them children. Gunfire broke out Saturday in the Shiite holy city of Najaf, and ambulances raced to the scene. It was unclear who was shooting and why since the city has been generally quiet since an agreement several weeks ago to end clashes between U.S. soldiers and radical Shiite militiamen. Several strong explosions rumbled through central Baghdad before dawn Saturday but the origin was unclear. Gunmen attacked a police station in the New Baghdad area but officers fought back and forced the attackers to flee, an Interior Ministry official said. Police arrested three Iraqis.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:22:06 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
I have not resigned: Jamali
Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali on Friday said he had not resigned and no one had asked him to do so. “There is nothing of the sort,” Mr Jamali told journalists at a dinner he hosted for parliamentarians. He said there was no threat to his government and emphasised that no one had demanded that he resign. Brushing aside the rumours that he would step aside, the prime minister emphatically said: “I have told you in clear terms that no one has asked me to resign and you should trust your prime minister.” Mr Jamali said there was no political instability in the country.
Which country is he talking about? Surely not Pakland?
“All speculations and conjectures of the critics are proving wrong. I do not have any personal enmity with anyone,” he said. He told journalists that his cabinet would be expanded and reshuffled. “Those who are creating misunderstandings should stop this business now,” he said.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:19:53 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Officials: Jamali Resigns
Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali resigned Saturday, two senior government officials told The Associated Press, following months of speculation that his relationship with the country's military ruler was strained. Jamali was expected to announce his decision at a meeting of his PML-Q party later in the day, several officials said. The resignation was expected to mean the dissolution of his Cabinet. "He will announce his resignation and will give reasons," a senior ruling party member said on condition of anonymity. A Cabinet minister, who also declined to be named, confirmed Jamali was stepping down.

Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said he couldn't confirm the news and denied that he had been informed that he was out of a job. "Just wait and see," he said. Jamali's office on Saturday had no official comment. Rumors have circulated for months that relations between Jamali and the country's power broker, President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, had chilled. Jamali had sought to quash the reports, even professing his "love" of the general, but Musharraf offered him no clear public support. Observers say Musharraf grew impatient at Jamali's inability to rein in opposition lawmakers and effectively defend Musharraf's policies.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:13:39 AM || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Iraq's interim prime minister's office hit
Insurgents attacked political targets in the Iraqi cities of Baqubah and Erbil on Saturday, including the office of interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's party, officials said. Nobody was injured in the attack on Allawi's Iraqi National Accord office in Baqubah, but two guards were killed outside the office of the influential Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) there, when gunmen opened fire on council building. Around 7:30 a.m., eight masked gunmen jumped out of two pickup trucks and opened fire on the guards. The SCIRI is the largest Shiite Muslim political group in Iraq. About 30 minutes later, attackers threw hand grenades into the offices of the Iraqi National Accord and then planted an improvised explosive device, which exploded shortly afterward, according to a high-ranking INA official in Baghdad. The attack damaged the building, the official said.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:53:08 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Afghanistan/South Asia
Wana operation will continue till registration begins, says Faisal
Federal Interior Minister Makhdoom Faisal Saleh Hayat said on Friday that the ongoing military operation in Wana would continue until the registration of foreigners in the area commences. Talking to journalists at a ceremony to inaugurate the website of the district administration at the Islamabad Club, the minister said that the government was determined to eliminate terrorism from the country. The minister said that the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal was misguiding the people about the operation in Wana. “They are distorting facts and only showing one side of the picture.”
That's what they do best...
The minister reiterated that the Wana operation was not launched at the behest of the US and only the Pakistani army was involved. To a question about a ban on MMA leaders entering Sindh, he said that the federal government had nothing to do with that. “This ban has been imposed by an elected provincial government,” he said. The interior minister said that the government was receiving serious threats from Al Qaeda but the law enforcement agencies were vigilant to combat such threats. “We have entirely dismantled the vicious network,” he said. He said that the investigation into the murders of Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai and Munawar Suharwardy had made head way and claimed that the killers would be arrested soon. The minister said that the incidents of terrorism in Karachi and other parts of the country were linked with the Wana situation. Earlier the minister ordered the district administration to provide the public access to information.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:50:19 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Ah, yes. The operation continues... and continues... and continues... and continues...
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/26/2004 10:22 Comments || Top||


Attack on Bannu foiled
The Bannu Police on Friday successfully thwarted an attempt to attack Bannu Cantonment areas by defusing 10 rockets planted in a pond at Kurram. The rockets were aimed at military and sensitive installations at the Bannu Cantonment. The police officials said that the missiles were timed to fire at 6:35am on Friday. Bannu Deputy Superintendent of Police (DSP) Sikandar Khan on Friday received a tip-off about the sabotage attempt and informed the bomb disposal squad which immediately reached the scene and defused the rockets. Squad officials Gul Zameen and Rehmatullah rushed to the city’s locality of Ismael Khunikhel where they found 10 missiles in a pond adjacent to the River Kurram and defused them just 20 minutes prior to their firing.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:48:47 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The old "rockets in the pond" trick, eh?
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/26/2004 10:23 Comments || Top||

#2  Im used to plant stuff in olde rowboats and duckblinds.
Posted by: Half || 06/26/2004 11:08 Comments || Top||


I won’t be told what to do: Durrani
Chief Minister Akram Khan Durrani said on Friday that he was the chief minister of the NWFP and he knew how to run the affairs of the province. “I don’t need to take dictation from anyone,” said Mr Durrani, while talking to reporters at the provincial assembly.
"Ain't nobody tells me what to do..."
The chief minister, while commenting on President Musharraf’s annoyance over his absence from the National Security Council’s (NSC) first meeting on Thursday in Islamabad, said that he was bound to abide by the decision of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA). He said that he had contested the October elections from the MMA platform. “I am bound to abide by its decisions and will remain so in the future as well,” he said. He was a democratic man and he had spent all his life struggling for democracy.
"It's outta my hands, see?"
The chief minister said the MMA government had always cooperated with the Federal government and helped end differences between the province and the centre. Mr Durrani said the NSC had been constituted for the security and defence of the country and they would sacrifice their lives for the country. President Musharraf had expressed annoyance over the Mr Durrani’s absence from the NSC meeting in Islamabad on Thursday. “I take strong exception to the absence of the NWFP chief minister since he is a government representative. He should have attended the meeting. I’ll take this matter seriously,” sources quoted the president as saying at the maiden meeting of the NSC.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:44:37 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:


Terrorism emanating from NWFP: Hiraj
Who'da thunkit?
Minister for Law, Justice and Parliamentary Affairs, Raza Hayat Hiraj, said on Friday that terrorism was emanating from the North Western Frontier Province (NWFP) and FATA. “Combating terrorism is part of the government’s agenda and since it is emanating from NWFP and FATA regions, the opposition leader and NWFP chief minister should have attended the NSC meeting,” he said while speaking in the National Assembly. He was responding to the opposition’s objections to President Pervez Musharraf’s remarks about Chief Minister NWFP Akram Khan Durrani and Opposition Leader Maulana Fazlur Rehman. The state minister said the NSC was created under an act of the parliament to evolve strategies for internal and external security threats and the MMA had supported the council’s creation. “We do not see external threats but we have to neutralise the internal security threats posed by terrorism,” he added. “The president is a symbol of the unity of the federation under Article 11 of the Constitution and his remarks about Mr Durrani were correct,” he said.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:40:51 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Another "stop the presses" moment.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/26/2004 10:28 Comments || Top||


Punjab to ban public display of weapons
The Punjab government has decided to cancel all licences for the public display of weapons as part of a drive to disarm the province, Chief Minister Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi told a press conference on Friday. Mr Elahi said, however, that licences for keeping weapons at home would not be threatened. The keeping of bodyguards with weapons would also be banned, he said, unless someone’s life was under threat and they got permission from the government to keep private guards. The chief minister said trial anti-weapon campaigns had been launched in Nowshera Virkan, Sheikhupura and Gujrat had been very successful and would be expanded to other districts. He said everyone with licences to carry guns would have to deposit their weapons at their nearest police stations.
That's certainly original. For Pakland...
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:38:57 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  He said everyone with licences to carry guns would have to deposit their weapons at their nearest police stations.

...and when you need them, like for a wedding or to deal with the latest visitors from the ROP, you can just come by and borrow them. Sign right here.
Posted by: tu3031 || 06/26/2004 10:32 Comments || Top||

#2  If Muslim holy men can't display their weapons, how are people going to know they're holy men?
Posted by: virginian || 06/26/2004 13:30 Comments || Top||

#3  Is this ban against PDW (public displays of weapons) going to be enforced with all the fervor of the ban on PDA (public displays of affection)?
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 14:10 Comments || Top||

#4  So if two guys show each other their, ahh, weapons, will the mullahs collapse a stone wall on them?
Posted by: ed || 06/26/2004 14:22 Comments || Top||


Kidnappers slit abductees’ throats in Kashmir
Assailants in Kashmir slit the throats of an Indian railway engineer and his brother who were abducted for ransom three days earlier, Indian police said on Friday. The bodies of railway engineer Sudhir Kumar and his brother were abandoned in a rice field in Zainpora, said a police official. Police found the vehicle early Friday near the paddy fields outside Zainpora and began searching for clues.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:37:19 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Wannabees.

Pfah.
Posted by: too true || 06/26/2004 12:24 Comments || Top||


Govt bars Fazl, Qazi from Sindh
The Sindh government on Friday issued two separate notifications to ban the entry of Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal’s acting chief Qazi Hussain Ahmed and the religious alliance’s secretary general and leader of the opposition in the National Assembly, Maulana Fazlur Rehman to Sindh for fifteen days. Qazi Hussain Ahmed said that he would defy the ban and come to the provincial capital on Saturday to attend the MMA’s peace rally.
An MMA peace rally... The mind boggles...
Oh I'm sure they had their AK-47's with them.
The other MMA leaders, whose entry has been banned in Sindh, are: Allama Sajid Naqvi, Sajid Mir, Hafiz Hussain Ahmed and Maulana Abdul Ghafoor Hyderi.
Talk about a list of the usual suspects... But they forgot Liaquat Baloch...
“There are reasons to believe that these two leaders shall make unnecessary speeches or indulge in activities prejudicial to public safety and maintenance of good order in the province of Sindh,” said the notifications issued by the provincial home department. “Their speeches, presence or other activities may promote feelings of hatred, disharmony and ill will among different segments of society and thus posing problems of maintenance of law and order,” said the notifications further.
That's pretty much their stock in trade...
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:30:34 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Caucasus
Akhmed Zakayev is making a visit to Norway
Vice Premier of the Chechen Government, Special Envoy of President of CRI abroad Akhmed Zakayev is paying a visit to Norway by invitation of leader of the Norwegian Socialist Left Party Kristin Halvorsen. Today, at 14:00 pm, according to the schedule of visit, Akhmed Zakayev made a report about real situation in Chechnya in the Norwegian Parliament (Storting), before the deputies included in the parliamentary Commission of Foreign Policy. In his speech Zakayev noted that owing to informational blackout of the Chechen military conflict, the Western public has scant information about monstrous crimes committed by Russian invaders against the civilian population on the territory of Chechnya. Zakayev drew attention of the audience to the obvious interrelation of these two phenomena: total informational blackout of the Chechen conflict and total genocide against the Chechen people committed by the Russian militarists. The Russian authorities, as noted by A.Zakayev, would not hamper activities of the representatives of independent mass media in Chechnya, if the norms of international law with regard to Chechens were observed to some extent.

In his speech at the parliament, as well as at the press conference, Akhmed Zakayev touched on a perspective of political resolution to the Russian-Chechen conflict. "The alternative to peace resolution of this conflict does not exist", - noted A.Zakayev. He also emphasized that the military actions going on almost five years convince the unbiased observers of complete Utopia of the intention to break the armed resistance of the Chechen people by means of using force.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 9:21:16 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Long WaPo Article Detailing Combat Against Moqtada Sadr, Apr 8 - June 4
Posted by: Mike Sylwester || 06/26/2004 08:52 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Israel-Palestine
Israel to ID all ships electronically
All ships entering Israeli ports will need to be equipped with new electronic identification devices starting next week, Israel's Transportation Ministry announced yesterday. The device, which will need to be installed on both domestic and foreign ships wishing to dock in Israel, has an electronic tag that emits a special detection code, enabling Israel to decide whether to grant authorization before the ship reaches shore.

Israel has been increasingly concerned that terrorists aboard a ship could try to perpetrate a large attack in the Jewish State. The new safety standard, which is also recommended by the International Maritime Organization, will allow Israel to identify all ships while they are still at sea, as opposed to the traditional method of ships using a short-range communication system to identify themselves once they draw close to an Israeli port. The head of the ships and ports department in the Transportation Ministry, Aryeh Rona, said that according to the new standard, a security official will stand at the docks as one crew mate identifies every crew member before the ship is allowed into the country.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/26/2004 03:13 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Once again the Israelis are ahead in top level high-tech national security. Washington where art thou??
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 23:43 Comments || Top||


Egypt preparing to train Palestinian police, while its own police accused of rights abuses
The first day, Egyptians opposed to the war in Iraq were allowed to vent their anger in the streets. The next day, authorities let the police loose. Officers beat the largely peaceful protesters, lashed them with water cannons, set dogs on them, even pelted them with stones. Human rights groups say demonstration leaders were detained for days or weeks without charge, and in some cases tortured. It’s policing, Egyptian style -- a muscular form of crowd control that could become the nation’s latest export.

Following the Israeli government’s decision to withdraw from the Gaza Strip by September 2005, authorities in Cairo have been discussing a proposal for Egyptians to train Palestinian police in the volatile zone. Rights groups say Egyptian police tactics may be the last thing Gaza needs. Egyptian officials say they are proposing to train 30,000 Palestinian policemen in Gaza. In addition, Egypt reportedly has offered to send equipment and build new police stations and jails in the strip. What’s most surprising about the idea is Israel’s apparent acceptance of allowing Egyptian police to enter Gaza, which Egypt controlled between the founding of the Jewish state in 1948 and the Israeli capture of the strip in 1967.
He, he...the Egyptians use police dogs??? and "water torture"??? wow except for the panties on the head, this sounds very familiar...like what the US military police used in Abu, which had the Arab Street crazed with anger and insult...and this is only for demonstartors...I wonder whatthe Egyptians use for prisoners??? and now the poor paleos may have this same treatment taught to their own police. I am worried for the paleos. Anyone have Kofi’s phone # handy?
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 3:00:24 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Unity urged, anti-US rhetoric aired, in final pre-June 30th sermons
Preachers in Iraq’s mosques have heaped scorn on the American-run occupation every Friday for weeks, venting their anger and frustration from pulpits across the country. On their final sermons under foreign rule, many delivered messages that remained anti-American but also looked to the future, condemning Thursday’s bloodshed and calling for unity as Iraq prepares for sovereignty next week. “We hope that after June 30 Iraqis will be united, loyal to their nation and not allow foreigners to interfere in their affairs,” Sunni cleric Niema Hassan told a congregation at the Grand Mosque in the southern city of Basra.
"If we want to slaughter each other what's it to them?"
The violence Thursday, a string of coordinated attacks in several cities that killed about 100 Iraqis, figured in many sermons. The bloodshed drew condemnation - as well as suggestions that Americans, rather than Iraqis, should have been targeted. “It makes me sad to see that all the victims yesterday were Iraqis,” Sheik Ahmed Hassan al-Taha said at Baghdad’s al-Azimiya mosque, Iraq’s foremost Sunni place of worship.
That's prob'ly because the Merkins are better armed...
Sheik Abdul-Ghafour al-Samarai, a member of the influential Sunni group the Association of Muslim Scholars, asked in a sermon in Baghdad’s Umm al-Qura mosque: “What sort of religion condones the killing of a Muslim by another Muslim?”
"They should be killing infidels, instead!"
“This is a conspiracy against the people of Iraq and Iraqi resistance,” he said of Thursday’s carnage. “We must unite and be heedful of those who want to drive a wedge among us under the cover of Islam.”
"We should get together and kill the Merkins!"
"We tried that. Remember?"
"Oh. Yeah. I guess we did."
The anti-US content of the Friday sermons also underlines the failure of the United States to win the goodwill of most Iraqis, despite the United States’ ridding the country of Saddam’s dictatorship.
Or at least the failure of the U.S. to win over some of the influential holy men...
“American soldiers are infidels,” said Youssef Khodeir, a Sunni sheik and imam of the Saad Bani Moaz mosque in Baqouba, scene of the heaviest fighting Thursday. “The blood that is being shed every day is because we are not closing our ranks. The source of all power comes from adhering to the Quran.”
We got some 'xplaining to do to Youssef.
At least we know what side he's on...
The sermons also offered different scenarios for who might be behind Thursday’s attacks, reflecting divisions among Iraq’s main religious groups over the merits of armed resistance and over who is to blame for terror attacks that have claimed hundreds of Iraqi lives in the past year. Some preachers blamed “foreigners” or Iraqis implementing “evil American schemes.” In a sermon at Imam Hussein mosque in the holy Shiite city of Karbala, Ahmed al-Safi blamed Baathists and Saddam loyalists for the violence. In Sadr City, a prayer leader loyal to militant cleric Muqtada al-Sadr said Thursday’s violence was designed to expose Iraqis as incapable of maintaining security after the occupation ends. “Al-Zarqawi is a myth created by America,” declared sheik Aous al-Khafaji to hundreds of worshippers in Sadr City, where US troops and al-Sadr’s al-Mahdi Army militia have clashed for much of the past 2 1/2 months. Referring to Washington’s declared aim that its 2003 war on Iraq was to bring democracy to the Arab nation, a Sunni imam, Mohammed Bashar, told worshippers in Mosul that what America really wanted was “the freedom to kill and arrest Iraqis.”
Sounds reasonable to me. It's like when you get roaches or mice in your house. You don't reform them.
In Basra, a preacher loyal to al-Sadr, Abdul-Rida al-Roueini, called on Iraq’s interim government to step up its fight against terrorism. Another Shiite imam, Ali Sadiq, called for the building of “a new Iraq free of sedition and division.”
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 1:19:08 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  The anti-US content of the Friday sermons also underlines the failure of the United States to win the goodwill of most Iraqis, despite the United States’ ridding the country of Saddam’s dictatorship. “American soldiers are infidels,” said Youssef Khodeir, a Sunni sheik and imam of the Saad Bani Moaz mosque in Baqouba, scene of the heaviest fighting Thursday. “The blood that is being shed every day is because we are not closing our ranks. The source of all power comes from adhering to the Quran.”
Let's leave this dump. Puhleaze, I've had it up the wazoo listening to GWB talking about the peace loving Iraqi people. Say what? And then in another article posted here from Newsmax.com it looks like the WH and Congress are going to implement the draft. Forget about that noise. No more young boys sacrificed on the altar of some wild eyed idiotic experiment in implementing democracy with these savages. This is useless. We can arm the Israelis and the Kurds to the nth degree and let's call it a day. We can buy oil from Canada and Mexico, we can stop immigration from these hellholes, let's bring our boys home now!!!!
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 3:09 Comments || Top||

#2  As usual, AP quotes copiously from the ranks of Sunni preachers and of Shiite preachers in Sadr City, which is allied with Sadr. Is there any doubt left that AP's Baathist stringers are still distorting news on Iraq in the same way as they did while working for Saddam?
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 3:32 Comments || Top||

#3  The AP keeps quoting anti-American hatred from the Sunnis and Shiites...and how unfair is that sampling??...the Sunnis and Shiites make up the significant majority in Iraq...so that means that the AP is giving representation to the majority sentiment ie. the Iraqis who are hell bent to kill our GI's.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 3:38 Comments || Top||

#4  There is not going to be any draft.

Furthermore, this particular article only has a small part of the story. In reality, Friday may have marked a major event: Iraqis are turning against Zarqawi who they see (rightly) as trying to take over their country...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5299369/

Foes of U.S. in Iraq criticize insurgents
Clerics and militiamen decry violence

------

Remember what the goal is: to turn the people away from terrorism, especially terrorism that is turned towards US. If Al Queda becomes unpopular, and it clearly is in Iraq, that is a victory...a large victory.

This is EXACTLY what we want. The strategy is working...beautifully.



Posted by: RMcLeod || 06/26/2004 3:41 Comments || Top||

#5  After we leave, I am thoroughly going to enjoy watching these idiots kill each other. Out of all the ungrateful bastards we've shed blood for, these guys take the cake.
Posted by: Destro || 06/26/2004 3:47 Comments || Top||

#6  One step forward and 6 steps back. The majority of Iraqis are losers and they would kill us in a heart beat. Now we know why Saddam had to use brutality and legions of military to control these morons. In fact, if Uncle Saddam had not got too full of himself and invaded Kuwait, he would have been just fine to rule Iraq.

There is no strategy in Iraq, please. It's been fly by the seat of your pants since we took Baghdad. Strategy went out the door when Tommy Franks retired. Why do you think Israel and the Kurds are allying themselves with one another? Because they see no strategy in Iraq, just expediency.

You bet there will be no draft, because there will be millions of American parents protesting at Capitol Hill. These 26 million savages are not worth one GI's life and democracy in the ME was a DOA idea.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 3:57 Comments || Top||

#7  Sorry, Rex, what six steps back?

The strategy has been clear and plain from the very start: minimizing and eliminating the threat of terror attacks against the U.S.

Step one: Destroy their safe haven and training grounds in Afghanistan. Mostly accomplished.

Step two: Strike a massive blow in their heartland, eliminating a major supporter of terrorism and a government that has shown great willingness to develop (and use) WMDs.

Step three: establish a self-governing, representative democracy in the Middle East that serves as an example to the region that there IS a better way than living in oppressive states that breed terrorists.

Al Queda has done us a great favor by coming to Iraq. They are showing the people, directly, that they are NOT their mystical saviors, that they are, in fact, as bad as what they had before and that what they REALLY want is dictatorial power.

The veil has been ripped away. Al Queda will kill anyone that gets in their way...including other Arabs and Muslims who only want to govern themselves freely.

The flypaper aspect of the war is turning out great. Not only are we attriting the hell out of the terrorists, they are isolating themselves by their own behavior.

And by the way, there is NO evidence whatsoever that the "majority" of Iraqis will "kill us in a heartbeat.

Are the groups in Iraq jockeying for power? Sure they are, so what? So long as that country doesn't become a training and safe haven for terrorists, which it will not, we achieve a significant victory. Plus we keep Iran and Syria off balance, plus the people in Iraq are opponents of international terrorists.

What's not to like?



Posted by: RMcLeod || 06/26/2004 4:47 Comments || Top||

#8  rex: The majority of Iraqis are losers and they would kill us in a heart beat. Now we know why Saddam had to use brutality and legions of military to control these morons.

That's pretty silly. The Baathist minders still working for the media are continuing to pump out Saddam-era propaganda. And you're falling for it. The same people who were used as props before the war to show how popular Saddam was are now being used as props to show unpopular the US is in Iraq. And it's all a bunch of Baathist BS which happens to suit the tastes of the media, which sees the US as the root of all evil. I'm encouraged by the fact that the polls in the Sunni triangle, which is about as anti-American as it is possible to get, because of Saddam's past sponsorship, are starting to turn in favor of the new government, even as Sunni triangle residents remain mostly anti-American. Fine with me.

rex: These 26 million savages are not worth one GI's life and democracy in the ME was a DOA idea.

That's kind of silly. Democracy or not, Saddam had to be taken out as a warning to terror-sponsoring Muslim regimes. Once he was toppled, Uncle Sam needed to put someone else in his place. Better an uncontrollable democracy subject to checks and balances than an uncontrollable replica of Saddam. The alternative was a new Saddam or a new Khomeini- or Taliban-style Iraq.

And casualties in Iraq are pretty light. In 1991 during Desert Storm, the US sustained 350 dead in one month of fighting. To date, after a year in Iraq, US dead are only about 800 (600+ KIA). Those who say that the continuation of guerrilla warfare shows a lack of planning do not know what they are talking about. Occupying territory that has not been completely destroyed beforehand has seldom been easy. The German and Japanese occupations were peaceful because by the end of the war, 12% and 5% of their populations respectively had been killed off. The US did not kill 1 million Iraqis during this campaign, so guerrilla resistance was to be expected.

People who say that better planning could have destroyed the resistance well within a 1-year time frame are full of it. Technology is not a panacea. We have sent a man to the moon, but it still takes 4 years to go through college. And all college students are doing is memorizing passages from books, passages that don't evolve or start trying to actively resist comprehension. Whereas guerrillas in Iraq, armed with Saddam's billions, are learning all the time and evolving their tactics to fight the occupation. In the long run, they are doomed, but fighting guerrillas remains a time-intensive occupation, no matter what resources are put into it. Here's my personal bet - Chechen terrorists in Russia will remain a fighting force long after Iraqi terrorists are wiped out.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 4:58 Comments || Top||

#9  Read this article and see if you are still thinking everything is coming up roses in Iraq:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6583-2004Jun25.html
"Iraqi Insurgents Are Surprisingly Cohesive, Armitage Says" By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, June 26, 2004; Page A15

Everything is a surprise or a puzzle to the chief architect of the Iraq War, Wolfowitz, and ditto for his side kicks in the State Department. One year later, and Mr. Charlemagne in a pin-striped suit does not know who the enemy is, where the enemy is coming from, or how many numbers of enemies there are[infinite, like the Muslim birth rate perhaps?] or how long our troops will stay in Iraq[indefefinitely ???].

These people in the War Room know nothing from nothing, so how come you are so clear and confident, #7 ???
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 5:05 Comments || Top||

#10  Here's my personal bet - Chechen terrorists in Russia will remain a fighting force long after Iraqi terrorists are wiped out.
See this is where you make your mistake, #8. You assume there are a finite number of jihadists and as soon as we kill X number, we reach the bootom of the pit. Muslims are recruiting jihadists every single day. We will never get to the bottom of the pit. Oh sure, they may not have the hi-tech training of our military but they are willing to be suicide bombers orto set bombs in the path of our GI's, which are highly effective albeit crude ways to kill our boys.

And no I'm not being silly about Uncle Saddam-he did the job-he was up to the task of subduing these savages. That polls show deep resent ment for the US is okay by you, but you are not in Iraq, of course that does not bother you. Duh. And I thought one of the benefits of removing Saddam was to make Iraq more pro-US...well if the majority hate us how id that okay? As we have recently learned, removing Saddam was not necessary. The CIA information was faulty and the CIA Director got fired for this screw up.

We're not wanted, we did what we set out to do[removed Saddam] we should not be nation building in a country that was not thoroughly subdued. It is dangerous to our GI's. Whether we lose 100 or 1000 GI's each of those men are someone's brother or husband or son. They may be "acceptable" losses to you but their deaths in a war that was not necessary represents a huge loss. I don't think we should be so cavalier about continuing to keep our men in danger in Iraq. It compounds one error with another.

Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 5:22 Comments || Top||

#11  rex: Everything is a surprise or a puzzle to the chief architect of the Iraq War, Wolfowitz, and ditto for his side kicks in the State Department. One year later, and Mr. Charlemagne in a pin-striped suit does not know who the enemy is, where the enemy is coming from, or how many numbers of enemies there are[infinite, like the Muslim birth rate perhaps?] or how long our troops will stay in Iraq[indefefinitely ???].

This is just silly. The reporter in question is either ignorant or trying to put out a portrait of confusion where there is none. When Armitage says we don't know how many of them there are, he's saying we don't know if there are 2,000 or 10,000. There are definitely not 500,000 of them out there. (If there were, we'd carrying out a lot more aerial bombing missions).

This stuff about the Muslim birth rate is also silly. This seems to imply that all of Islam is against us. It's not. If that were the case, we'd be conducting a lot more bombing missions, leveling entire cities. (Many may not like us, and that's fine with me - I don't like 'em much either. As long as they're not either financing terrorists or joining terrorist groups, they are not our enemy).

rex: These people in the War Room know nothing from nothing, so how come you are so clear and confident, #7 ???

The War Room? You've been reading too many Clinton memoirs. The reason I'm confident is because WaPo, which like all the major media, has been wrong about Afghanistan and Iraq from inception to now. It is the people at WaPo and the major media who know nothing from nothing, and, more importantly, don't want to hear that Iraq is perhaps the most successful occupation ever. This far into the occupation of Japan, the Japanese were struck by famine. This far into the occupation of Germany, the Germans were living amidst piles of rubble, waiting for a reconstruction that began only 2-3 years after the war's end.

The campaign in Iraq is going well by all historical indices. The major conventional battles ended with the loss of 200 men, less than in 1991's Desert Storm, in spite of a hazardous drive into Iraqi cities. The guerrilla war has claimed 600 lives in total over the course of 14 months, less than a typical month in Vietnam. The enemy is so weakened that he has to resort to attacking civilians, which garner headlines in the short run, but will lead to his destruction in the medium to long term, as they start ratting on his hideouts and his weapons stores.
Posted by: Zhang Fei || 06/26/2004 5:49 Comments || Top||

#12  Well said Zhang! The 'Iraqi resistance' is either stunningly inept or only attracts miniscule support based on its performance to date. They seem to manage about 5 to 10 bombs a month. By way of comparison the IRA managed 5 bombs a day for years in an area 500 times smaller and with a similarly smaller population base.

Repeat after me - the media is the problem.
Posted by: phil_b || 06/26/2004 7:32 Comments || Top||

#13  Seems like just about everyone has good,valid points today.
You old War Dogs know"No battle plan survives the first few Minutes of combat".Things are not going as good as they could,but they are getting better(reference the MSNBC link).
If the Iraqis are turnning on the Foreign Fighters then +/- 30%of the battle is over.

On a side note,For the last few days I have to keep writing my name every time I post.Cookies are enabled.
Any suggestions?
Posted by: Raptor || 06/26/2004 9:00 Comments || Top||

#14  I haven't changed anything...
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:01 Comments || Top||

#15  After reading all the posts.....I've come to one inescapable conclusion. Rex, you're a goddamn idiot.
Posted by: Halfass Pete || 06/26/2004 12:16 Comments || Top||

#16  Congratulations, Pete. Based on that insight you are promoted to Fullass.
Posted by: Mr. Davis || 06/26/2004 13:29 Comments || Top||

#17  Rex' problem is shortsightedness. He can't be criticized too harshly ("silly" is about right), because the dominant analysis of the war on terror is based on shortsightedness. This is going to be a decades-long war. We have barely gotten of the starting line. But history will recognize that we got off to a blazing start. Taliban: gone. Saddam: gone. The end goal is reforming the middle east, ostracizing militant islam/jihadiism and making it unacceptable among the large majority of muslims. That is a war of world-views. The best way to accomplish it is to pave the way for democracy, free expression, and tolerance/liberalism in the middle east. Hell of a job, but we are making amazing strides. Rex needs to step back a bit, realize there are going to be setbacks, and stop being such a chicken little when the bad new is amplified by the media while the overall good news is either ignored or not even recognized.
Posted by: sludj || 06/26/2004 14:12 Comments || Top||

#18  Thank you, Mr. Davis. I put thought into my posts and it would be nice if #15 would do me the courtesy of offering a thoughtful, reasoned rebuttal instead of Wa, wa I don't like what you are saying wa, wa.

As for my alleged short sightedness, #17, you are wrong. I agree with the invasion of Afghanistan and I think it is being handled well.

As for the invasion of Iraq, I think it was not necessary, but once we went in there, we should have patted ourselves on the back for removing Saddam, started up a skeleton government, and then we should have left.

We have over-stayed our welcome and we are irritating Iraqis each minute we are there. At the very latest, we should have no troops in Sunni/Shiite Iraq as of the day after the January elections. To have an "indefinite" withdrawal date is sheer madnes and is very similar to the madness of Vietnam.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 15:11 Comments || Top||

#19  See, now, Rex, its that kind of thinking that justifies calling you silly (although not a "goddamn iddiot"). once we went in there, we should have patted ourselves on the back for removing Saddam, started up a skeleton government, and then we should have left.
What do your really think would have happened if we had done that? Your recommendation is a prescription for anarchy, civil war, and the possible emergence of another mullahcracy. See, we dont' want that, and I don't think you want that, but you are not thinking very far down the road, or very responsibly. You can't seem to keep the end goal in mind. Join us at the grown-ups table when you have an idea that relates to long-term success in beating islamist terrorism. (b/t/w, I don't think we will ever totally abolish islamist terrorism (terrorism is so easy that a few nuts with guns or dynamite can still cause ripples), but I do think we can win the war of ideologies over time among most muslims and can prevent the existence of elaborate, capable, terrorist structures with the ability to do tremendous harm in the US).
Posted by: sludj || 06/26/2004 15:28 Comments || Top||

#20  Thanks Sludj for providing a more concise description of the strategy and context for Iraq and the war than I have.

America has to keep its collective eyes on the long-term goal and avoid being discouraged by short-term reverses or the latest outrage. Terrorists cannot win unless we and the Iraqis allow it. We're clearly beating the pants off of them right now. These attacks in Iraq aren't going to stop anything...and they keep alienating the very people the terrorists need to pursue their fight.

You cannot wage a successful guerilla war without broadbased support. You need safe haven, hospitals, training facilities, etc., etc., and without the support of huge sectors of the population you've got no chance...indeed, we've seen the reality: Iraqis are supplying us with information. That is a terrible sign to the Islamofacists. And now the leaders of the Iraqi groups that oppose us are turned against Al Queda. They want their own country and that country is NOT going to be a theocracy.

Posted by: RMcLeod || 06/26/2004 17:16 Comments || Top||

#21  Dog bites Rex?
Posted by: Shipman || 06/26/2004 20:47 Comments || Top||

#22  One wonders how the Iraqi people would act if these Islamic loonies weren't there screaming every Friday. Part of the tribal mentality of Islam means that thinking for yourself unless you're in a position to do so is a no-no. You're not the big man, so you don't have the "right" to say that. And if you do, you'd better have some powerful protectors, since the leader's gonna liquidate you for daring to be an individual. So unless we can somehow neutralize these mullahs, they're going to continue to think for the community.
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/26/2004 21:39 Comments || Top||

#23  rex - sludj and RMcLeod tore your argument a new one - concrete answers and alternatives (join the futures club) or put the speculative pessimism up for ridicule. A tough road we hoe to coment, neh?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 21:44 Comments || Top||


Iraqis Volunteer to Help Build Country Alongside U.S. Forces
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 02:06 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Good article.
Sad,true,and inspiring.
(hard word to spell)
Posted by: Raptor || 06/26/2004 9:23 Comments || Top||

#2  Rap, it is true that Iraqi people willing to counter the jihadees are daily risking it all to rebuild their nation and keep from falling to the insane.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 22:27 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Kashmir Korpse Kount
Suspected Islamic rebels raided a village in India’s Jammu-Kashmir state and killed 11 people, police said Saturday. Another 15 people were wounded in the attack in the hilly Surankot region, 190 miles north of Jammu, the winter capital of India’s Jammu-Kashmir state, a police officer said. Most of those killed were members of a Village Defense Committee, raised jointly by the Indian army and police, to protect local residents. The committee members have been armed with guns. It was not immediately known whether they also fired at the gunmen, believed to be militants fighting for Kashmir’s independence from India or its merger with Pakistan.
They obviously didn't resist enough.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 1:09:02 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Russia
Russia says North Korea has right to peaceful nuclear program
The Russians our ’allies’ with ’allies like these ,,,fill in the rest.
MOSCOW - Russia reaffirmed its position on Friday that North Korea had a right to a civilian nuclear program after six-nation talks on the crisis ended with Pyongyang again threatening to conduct nuclear missile tests. Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he viewed the latest round of negotiations in China over Washington’s nuclear standoff with Pyongyang a success and made no mention of North Korea’s latest threat.

Russia, with Soviet-era ties to North Korea, has tried to play the role of neutral negotiator in the crisis, although its role has been overshadowed by that of China, the reclusive Stalinist state’s major trade partner. “We believe that North Korea has the right to a civilian nuclear program” once UN nuclear inspectors return to the country, Lavrov told reporters during a meeting with the visiting foreign minister of Argentina.

Moscow had initially held out little hope that the third round of negotiations in Beijing that ended Friday would achieve any concrete results, and Lavrov said the talks only proved that such meetings should continue. “The results of the third round of the six-way talks prove that this format is imperative if we want the Korean problem can be resolved,” Lavrov said. “We must continue to patiently work in this format.”
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 1:35:39 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Well, If this ain't the pot callin the kettle black!! I'm going to can (archive)this report, for the day we hear NORK supportive hardware and knowhow reaching down into Chechnya,for their struggle and recognition!
Posted by: smn || 06/26/2004 3:10 Comments || Top||

#2  "North Korea" and "peaceful" - the mother of all oxymorons.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 10:48 Comments || Top||

#3  Chechnya should be allowed to have a reactor too, huh?
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:08 Comments || Top||


Afghanistan/South Asia
Explosion Hits Vehicle Carrying Afghan Women Election Workers
An explosion hit a vehicle carrying Afghan election workers in an eastern Afghanistan city on Saturday, killing at least one person and wounding 10, an Afghan official said. Faizan, a spokesman for the governor of Nangarhar province, said the explosion happened in Jalalabad after the vehicle had set off from a U.N. office to take the workers to voter registration sites in the province. He said that all the people inside the vehicle were women, and one was killed and 10 wounded. The wounded were sent to hospital in the city, he said. U.N. officials, helping organize national election due in September, could not immediately confirm the blast.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 2:09:18 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Not to worry...their 72 studs are waiting for them!!
Posted by: smn || 06/26/2004 3:15 Comments || Top||

#2  uh huh - that's what every woman wants: 72 pimply-faced virgin teen boys pawing at em, hair triggers and all
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:43 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Al-Sadr declares Hudna
RADICAL Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr’s armed militia sought to prove it served Iraq’s national interest today as it laid down its weapons and backed the country’s interim government in the run-up to self rule on June 30.
OK, now SHOOT HIM WHILE YOU HAVE THE CHANCE!!!!!!! It’s a HUDNA ie: it’s a trap!
Thank you, Admiral Akbar...
"There will not be a transfer of power to the Iraqi authorities," Sheikh Aws al-Khafaji said at prayers in the Baghdad Shiite slum of Sadr City.
oh, and why is that? please tell us what you know
"But so the Americans cannot say the Mehdi Army has prevented the transfer of power, we will follow the Marjaiya’s (senior Shiite clerics) orders and see what they (the Americans) truly do."
Legitimate targets for assassination to prevent the rise of an Islamofascist satelite state of Iran: the Marjaiya, Al-Sadr, Mehdi Army.
Before prayers, the Mehdi Army militia’s central committee read off the terms of its truce to the hundreds arriving to worship at the Hekmat mosque, the day after around 90 people were killed in a rebel offensive across central and northern Iraq. "We want to show that we are not committing the terrorist attacks in Iraq and that our resistance is an honourable struggle against colonisation," said Sadr official Naim al-Kaabi. "We want the transfer of authority to unfold peacefully."
shoot them now while we have the chance
Iraqi analyst Adel Rauf, a specialist on Iraq’s Shiite majority community, said Sadr’s movement did not want to be blamed for the upheaval now shaking the country.
he’d rather sit back and reap the benefits. Or maybe he just realises we’d crush him if he continued to fight. ie: a hudna. a tactical retreat to regroup forces for another assault.
"Shoot them. Shoot them both." Nazi Goon in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Posted by: Anon1 || 06/26/2004 1:00:39 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1 
We want the transfer of authority to unfold peacefully
And we want the transfer of Sadr's fat ass from mosque to jail - peacefully is optional.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 1:11 Comments || Top||

#2  We want the that chubby little, pedophile, goat fucking bearded punk, DEAD!!
Posted by: Long Hair Republican || 06/26/2004 1:23 Comments || Top||

#3  Arabs talk a lot just to make noise. To borrow a Democratic phrase, "they're all hat and no cattle." The survivors of his Mahdi Army are trying desperately to ignore the fact that they were almost exterminated without achieving much but a few newspaper headlines.
Posted by: RWV || 06/26/2004 1:24 Comments || Top||

#4  Hunda Shmunda, this schmuck butcher is on borrowed time and knows it.

Any odds? Any takers? Two weeks tops, and Al-Sadr is Islamic burned toast!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 1:27 Comments || Top||

#5  I'll take two Hudna and an order of fries.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/26/2004 1:41 Comments || Top||

#6  Your fries sir and your Hudna is coming. Could you pull forward until your Hudna is ready?
Posted by: Lucky || 06/26/2004 1:45 Comments || Top||

#7  ~The 2004 Hudna~

This new Iraqi SUV is fully fully loaded! On sale now at Akmid's Used Camel & New Car Lot.

They are going fast ...so ....come ..on ...down!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 1:57 Comments || Top||

#8  The trouble with buying a used Hudna is that they tend to have scorch marks from IEDs and the back seat always smells like goats.
Posted by: SteveS || 06/26/2004 2:42 Comments || Top||

#9  Take this with a grain of salt but "Tater" is now telling everyone who will listen that the Mahdi Army is against the foreign fighters who he used to claim were never in Fallujah and he is telling them to leave. Sounds like he invited more foreign fighters in than he could manage, didn't take in to account how much better trained they are than his Mahdi Army, and has been pushed out for control of Fallujah. He thought he was a major player but wasn't ready for the REAL harboyzand has made thing worse in Fallujah than they were. I think this may be why our troops are getting such good intelligence on safe houses.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 06/26/2004 7:55 Comments || Top||

#10  We will see,as we sleep with one eye open.
Posted by: Raptor || 06/26/2004 9:54 Comments || Top||

#11  Am I the only one who thinks this might have already happened once before? And that he played us for fools then?
Posted by: The Doctor || 06/26/2004 13:12 Comments || Top||

#12  It's not so much that we were played for fools as that the Iraqis themselves have to be allowed to some to the conclusion he is a bag of shit and an Iranian tool.
Posted by: too true || 06/26/2004 13:15 Comments || Top||

#13  To be fair to our troops and the administration, what happened in Fallujah was a group of Interim Government officers and some tribal leaders and moderate clerics came forward with a plan to stop the fighting in Fallujah. 'Tater didn't keep his word and anyway, I think there are too many foreign fighters in Fallujah for him to control, the number one being Zarqawi. No one is going to control Zarqawi. Tater got in way over his head by starting this and thinking he could control Al Queda and the Iranians. I think we had to give the Iraquis a chance to clean this up on their own but I think they also understimated the ammount of outside influence here.
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 06/26/2004 13:23 Comments || Top||

#14  I still think fallujah would look better pounded flat with artillery and paved over as a parking lot. the algerians did it to one of there own citys in the 80's during a islamic rebellion and effectivly crushed it. we should have done the same, if for no other reason than they made us learn how to spell fallujah.bastards.


"I could'a been at a B-B-Q! instead you got me dragging your heavy ass through the burning deasert...and what the hell is that smell!"
Will Smith, independance day
Posted by: Anonymous5401 || 06/26/2004 14:19 Comments || Top||

#15  The new & 'pre-owned' Hudna & Camel Car Lot has been secured by the Marines for the time being.

Once things cool down, the first 100 customers to show up on opening day will win a FREE NEW HUDNA V8 Limited Broughham, and 50 lbs of free imported camel feed ..........as well :)
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 23:39 Comments || Top||


NATO expected to take Iraq role
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 00:45 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  How kind.
Posted by: Capt America || 06/26/2004 1:28 Comments || Top||

#2  I thought they already had a role in Iraq: critic.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 15:39 Comments || Top||


Caucasus
Former PM of Chechnya shot to death in Moscow
Ex-leader of Chechen administration, Vice Prime Minister of Chechnya Yan Sergunin was shot to death last night in Moscow. The murder took place around 2:30 am MSK. A motorcyclist shot down Sergunin the moment the victim along with his wife was exiting a restaurant on Pokrov Street. According to Lenta.ru, Sergunin died right on the spot; his wounded wife was hospitalized. The assassin managed to escape. Police is currently investigating the crime scene. Specially designed interceptive plan "Volcano-5" has been developed. It hasn't yielded any results yet. Newsru.com notes that according to the state's department of internal affairs, the murder has been ordered. Lieutenant-general Yan Sergunin used to be the head of the republic's administrative apparatus (2001-2002) and at the same time occupied a post of vice prime minister in the government of Akhmad Kadyrov. When Kadyrov first introduced Segunin to the cabinet, president of Chechnya exclaimed: "This man has been sent to me by Allah."
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  'Specially designed interceptive plan "Volcano-5"', same effect as the Saudi 'We have the terrorists surrounded', but it sounds so much more cool.
Posted by: Anonymous || 06/26/2004 11:09 Comments || Top||

#2  "implemented by my right-hand man, Number Two"
Posted by: Frank G || 06/26/2004 11:25 Comments || Top||


photos: Chechen rebels invade Ingushetia (caution, Pravda)
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 00:03 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:


Iraq-Jordan
Bush to Seek European Support in Iraq
Five days before the transfer of power in Baghdad, President Bush opened a European trip Friday with growing confidence that NATO would take a bigger role in Iraq despite reservations from France and Germany. The administration expects NATO, at a summit in Turkey, will pledge military training and equipment, answering an urgent plea from Iyad Allawi, prime minister of Iraq's interim government, for NATO assistance "to defeat the terrorist threat and reduce reliance on foreign forces."
This trip is just for show, right?
European Union External Affairs Commissioner Chris Patten said persistent violence could cause Iraq to unravel. "All of us in the international community are worried that the violence directed against moderate leadership in each of the communities and directed against attempts at long-term, sustainable reconstruction ... could lead to Iraq flying apart in the next few months," Patten said. He said the EU is "absolutely determined" to help reconstruct Iraq and ensure that elections are held but that violence could derail those goals.
Which is why NATO is leaping to help out ... oh right.
The United States expects NATO to make a broad commitment to training Iraqi forces - inside and outside Iraq - and to determine how to meet specific needs after consulting with Baghdad. "While I don't think this will be very specific, we would certainly hope that NATO is prepared to make a commitment to the training of Iraqi forces in order to answer Allawi," said a senior official with Bush on Air Force One. The official, speaking on condition of anonymity in order not to upstage Bush, expressed confidence about the outcome. In an interview aired Friday with Ireland's RTE television, Bush defended his decision to invade Iraq and insisted that most of Europe backed the move. "What was it like Sept. 11, 2001?" he said. "I wouldn't have made the decisions I did if I didn't believe the world would be better. Why would I put people in harm's way if I didn't believe the world would be better?" "History will judge what I'm about," the president said. He said, "Most of Europe supported the decision in Iraq. Really what you're talking about is France, isn't it? And they didn't agree with my decision. They did vote for the U.N. Security Council resolution. ... We just had a difference of opinion about whether, when you say something, you mean it."
The welt on your face will take some time to fade, Jacques.
In a separate interview with Turkey's private NTV television, Bush said it was unlikely that NATO countries would contribute additional troops to Iraq but he was hopeful some would help train Iraqi forces.
Posted by: Steve White || 06/26/2004 12:14:10 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Yea Right! When will "W" learn!
Posted by: smn || 06/26/2004 0:21 Comments || Top||

#2  This is demonstrate to the Iraqis that Euros don't care about them and never have and to set the Euros up for the withdrawal of U. S. troops from EU favored peacekeeping missions like Bosnia and Kosovo due to lack of ICC indemnification.
Posted by: Mr. Davis || 06/26/2004 0:28 Comments || Top||

#3  "We just had a difference of opinion about whether, when you say something, you mean it." Actually a pretty nice snub -- agreed!

Patten is verminous. So glad to hear his useless organization is "absolutely determined" to reconstruct Iraq. Now I feel better. Geez.

I am puzzled a bit, though, by these repeated useless symbolic overtures to Europe. Most of Europe caved long ago on things that matter -- debt forgiveness, training of Iraqi security forces, etc. This of course was mostly ignored by the media. So please let's put an end to the "reconciliation" b.s. and the trolling for "support" that appears too trivial to be material to the outcome or US burden.
Posted by: Verlaine || 06/26/2004 0:33 Comments || Top||

#4  Learn what smn?

Europe is in denial. Poor sods.

Verlain, well said!
Posted by: Lucky || 06/26/2004 1:14 Comments || Top||

#5  Mr. Davis, t'anks for the explanation. It all makes sense now! I guess 'W' learned purty good, eh smn?
Posted by: Steve White || 06/26/2004 1:56 Comments || Top||

#6  GWB is a nice man but I don't think anyone would accuse him of being sophisticated. You are dreaming, Mr. Davis.

There will be no withdrawal of US troops from UN peace keeping missions. GWB is a global government type of guy. He continues to send US $ to the UN like it grows on trees.

There is no need to use this elaborate game playing to show Iraqis that the EU doesn't care - GWB could simply publicize all the EU/UN corruption and entanglements in the oil-for-food scandal, yes? Instead, Bremer is dragging his feet on releasing the documents, despite pressure from Iraqis.
Posted by: rex || 06/26/2004 3:34 Comments || Top||

#7  I'd accuse him of being sophisticated. We don't see the diplo wars going on, but they're not thrashing about in the dark. Politix is a matter of what's possible, not a matter of what we'd like to see right now, no waiting. I don't think he's a global government kind of guy, and if he stopped sending money to the UN the domestic repercussions at this point would probably paralyze the administration. I have a lot of confidence in him and his team.
Posted by: Fred || 06/26/2004 10:00 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine
Israeli Troops Kill 2 Palestinians
Israeli soldiers enforcing a curfew in Nablus killed two Palestinians and seriously wounded two Friday, the second day of a large-scale search for fugitives and bomb labs in the West Bank city. In one incident, members of a Palestinian family were hit by army fire on their balcony, killing a 19-year-old man and seriously wounding his father and brother with shots to the head and face, witnesses and medics said. The military said soldiers opened fire after spotting suspicious punks figures slithering crawling on the roof of a building. Soldiers also opened fire on an 18-year-old on a rooftop after spotting him holding a gas canister over his head. The army said soldiers feared he was about to drop the canister on them.
"Hey! You! Drop that gas canister!"
"Hokay!"
[BANG] "Not on us!"
Hundreds of Israeli troops entered Nablus' old city, or Casbah, on Thursday, and began searching homes and shops. They commandeered 16 buildings in the Casbah, home to about 20,000 residents and a stronghold of militants. Families in the buildings were confined to one room per apartment. Soldiers forced open doors with grenades and sledge hammers. Palestinian medics said that in all, 12 Palestinians were wounded by live fire. The military said the Nablus operation, the largest in over a year, would last several days. The raid was triggered in part by the arrest earlier in the week of an 18-year-old resident recruited by Al Aqsa to blow himself up in Jerusalem. On Thursday, soldiers handed out leaflets explaining that they were looking for seven men, most from the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a militant group with ties to Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement. "Help us catch them because they are the ones who are causing damage to Nablus," it said. In their search, troops discovered an explosives belt weighing 44 pounds in an apartment and a roadside bomb at a junction, the army said.
Nice haul.
In the West Bank town of Bethlehem, Israeli troops demolished the apartment of a senior militant of the Islamic Jihad group, the army said. Ahmed Abu Akher was involved in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem last year and shooting attacks on an outlying neighborhood of the city, a spokesman said.
Demolished the apartment? Did they leave the rest of the building standing?
Posted by: Steve White || 06/26/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  LOL
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 0:20 Comments || Top||

#2  Only 2?

Damn.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 0:27 Comments || Top||

#3  How come we don't get a newsflash every time a black Sudanese is shot dead by an Arab? Inquiring minds want to know? Or as a pundit once wrote: "How many dead Congolese does it take to make the cover of the NYT?"
Posted by: borgboy2001 || 06/26/2004 0:32 Comments || Top||

#4  borgboy - the answer to the pundit's question is "one."

IF an American soldier did the killing.

(If another non-white did it, however, the answer is "ain't gonna happen.")
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut || 06/26/2004 11:00 Comments || Top||


Russia
Russia: A Terrorist In Life Is A Terrorist In Death
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  AWW, well spoken...from the original Klingon!!
Posted by: smn || 06/26/2004 0:07 Comments || Top||

#2  Osama and the rest of his Afghan Taliban/Al-Qa'ida terror network should be thanking the U.S.

After all was it not American military assistance in support of the Afghan freedom fighters which drove the invading Russians armies from Afghan soil?
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 0:24 Comments || Top||

#3  These terrorist deserve a decent burial. They should be clothed in the best of pig skin and dumped into an unmarked hole.
Posted by: Canaveral Dan || 06/26/2004 11:01 Comments || Top||


Iraq-Jordan
Is Saddam Hussein’s daugher Raghead planning to run for President of Iraq?
According to an Arabic language article published in Al-Manar this week, Raghad Hussein is ignoring the demands of her host, the Jordanian government, and is planning to seek the presidency of Iraq in the upcoming elections. Iraqi sources residing in Amman said that Saddam Husayn’s oldest daughter, Raghad, has informed visitors about her intention to begin political activities and contacts inside Iraq during the next few days in order to inform them about her plans to run for the Iraq presidency as soon as a fair and free election is held in Iraq under UN supervision at the end of next year. The sources said Saddam’s 37 year old daughter Raghad affirmed that she plans to meet with the ambassadors to Jordan of the five permanent UNSC members and some Arab countries to inform them of her intention to run for the presidency of Iraq, ignoring the Jordanian Government’s previous warnings not to be involved in any political or media activities while residing in Jordan, which it described as harmful to the security and interests of Jordan.
Yup, King Abdullah wouldn't take kindly to it at all.
A Jordanian weekly newspaper reported earlier that Raghad intends to leave Jordan, where she was hosted for humanitarian reasons a year ago, and return to her country to prepare for her participation in the presidential elections. News reports point out that Raghad, who moved to a fancy house in the affluent district of Abduon in the west of the Jordanian Capital Amman, tells her visitors that she will be the Benazir Bhutto of Iraq, as the Iraqi people still like her father and will elect her if she takes part in the coming elections.
Does this mean that Saddam will end up like Benazir's daddy?
Rumors circulating in Amman for the last two days have attributed the large number of Iraqis trying to join the Iraqi Army and the other security organs as due to direct orders by high ranking officers and commanders of the former Republican Guard, who are still in hiding, to impose their control over the situation and to declare a political and military coup to bring the family of ousted Iraqi President Saddam to power again in Iraq.
I could guess the response to that if GWB is still in office then.
Although Raghad, in an interview with an Arabic magazine, has denied that she had plastic surgery performed by a Jordanian doctor, Iraqi sources close to ousted President Saddam’s daughter said that Raghad has restored her elegance and appeared with a new look, indicating that she had the operation.
Pray for complications.
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 12:00:00 AM || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I can see her now...splendid before the grand balcony; Daddy's 'little girl', her 45 firing into the air, and her elite Cuban cigar at the ready!
Posted by: smn || 06/26/2004 0:18 Comments || Top||

#2  Daddy's little girl should be in the same location Daddy is ....in the clink!
Posted by: Mark Espinola || 06/26/2004 0:33 Comments || Top||

#3  Why doesn't her husband run? ... Oh that's right.
Posted by: Super Hose || 06/26/2004 2:54 Comments || Top||

#4  "Why doesn't her husband run? ... Oh that's right."

He dead!

Muqluq
Posted by: Muqtada || 06/26/2004 9:16 Comments || Top||

#5  Yeah, I can just see how those new-minted al Queda recruits, the al-Douris, are lusting in their heart for a female figurehead.

They must smoke some pretty good hashish in Amman this time of year.

Hey, Raghad, go back to the plastic surgeon and look into sex reassignment therapy. Not as if they would even see your shiny new face under the burkha you'd have to wear in the New Iraq.
Posted by: Mitch H. || 06/26/2004 12:25 Comments || Top||

#6  Very redolent of the "Imelda" syndrome. This woman may have been party to every sort of tragedy you can name, but she's their gal and can do no wrong. There's times when name recognition alone shouldn't stand for anything. This is one of them.

It reminds me very little of how Imelda Marcos' trial almost lasted 20 years.

She asked the judge to walk a mile in her shoes!

[rimshot]

Posted by: Zenster || 06/26/2004 13:28 Comments || Top||



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In no particular order...
Steve White
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Two weeks of WOT
Sat 2004-06-26
  Jamali resigns
Fri 2004-06-25
  Another strike on a Fallujah safehouse
Thu 2004-06-24
  Fallujah ruled Taliban-style
Wed 2004-06-23
  Saudis Offer Militants Amnesty
Tue 2004-06-22
  Korean beheaded in Iraq
Mon 2004-06-21
  Iran detains UK naval vessels
Sun 2004-06-20
  Algerian Military Says Nabil Sahraoui Toes Up
Sat 2004-06-19
  Falluja house blast kills 20 Iraqis
Fri 2004-06-18
  U.S. hostage beheaded
Thu 2004-06-17
  Turks Nab Four In Nato Summit Bomb Plot
Wed 2004-06-16
  Hosni shuffles off mortal coil?
Tue 2004-06-15
  Zarqawi sez jihad's not going great
Mon 2004-06-14
  Somali charged in plot to blow up Ohio mall
Sun 2004-06-13
  Iran sez no to nuke oversight
Sat 2004-06-12
  Brahimi hangs it up?


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