I'd advise adding some salt, say the Pacific Ocean:The British authorities have mounted a tremendous publicity effort to emphasize that Pakistan and Egypt are the central areas of interest in their investigation of the July 7 transport bombings that killed 55 Londoners. This is a diversionary tactic.
Much of the intelligence offered to the media is irrelevant to the inquiry. There is nothing that was not known to British and US intelligence from early 2004 in the fact that three of the four bombers were of Pakistan origin and some studied at medressas run by Muslim extremists linked directly to terrorism. Even the fact that they visited Pakistan last year or were in contact with Muslims in Queens, New York, does not lead to the masterminds who sent them to their deaths on July 7. Even terrorists phone or visit relatives. As for the Egyptian biochemist Magdi Mahmoud al-Nashar from Leeds, the Egyptian security authorities who are not known for their gentle handling of al Qaeda suspects have found no ties between him, al Qaeda and the London bombers. There was seemingly nothing to find beyond the fact that he rented them his apartment after a meeting at a local mosque. Yet British detectives are in Cairo day after day waiting to be allowed to interview the scientist.
The British government is feeding the public with a daily dose of suggestive, diversionary data for two purposes. One is to stop the mouths of Tony Blairâs enemies and throw off their efforts to link the attacks to Britainâs involvement in Iraq alongside the United States. This ploy was set back Monday, July 18, when the influential Chatham House came out with a report claiming Britain had been placed at magnified risk of terror attack by its role in Iraq and cooperation in the worldwide US-led offensive against al Qaeda. This contention was fiercely contested by the British defense and foreign ministers. The other purpose is to deflect attention from the leads followed by the inquiry to the real source of the attacks.
Ooooh, tell us!
Last Friday, July 14, DEBKA-Net-Weekly 214 (Al Qaedaâs Zone 9: The Blue-faced Men of the Sahara) revealed that a top-secret gathering took place Wednesday, July 13, in one of the most out-of-the-way towns in the world, Nouakchott, capital of Mauritania. It was attended by linchpins of the services responsible for the war on al Qaeda, the American Central Intelligence Agency, the British domestic and foreign secret services, MI5 and MI6, and the security chiefs of Algeria, Mali, Mauritania and Niger. Last week too, a senior British official who specializes in intelligence and terrorism Kim Howells was dispatched to Morocco. Add these moves to the earlier DEBKAfile finding that the explosives came from Serbia and it is clear that the real investigation is focused on West Africa, the Balkans and the Middle East â not Pakistan and Egypt.
The Nouakchott meeting was indeed called by British anti-terrorist services after their experts concluded that the team of terrorists that blew up three Tube trains and a bus in London on July 7 received their orders, explosives and operating funds from al Qaedaâs West Africa arm.
Very little is known about this remote wing of the Islamist group known as the West African Jamâa functions from deep inside the Sahara Desert under the command of Mukhtav bin Mukhtar, known also as the Blind One because he is one-eyed. Al Qaeda refers to this area of operations as Zone 9 and it is one of the most remote, bizarre and hazardous of all its sectors.
West African Jamâa members live in hiding among the strange Tuareg tribes, no more than a million strong, of the Sahara desert. Predominantly nomadic, these Berber-speaking people roam mostly through the northern reaches of Mali near Timbuktu and Kidal. The Tuareg are often referred to as the Blue Men of the Desert for their menâs indigo-dyed robes and blue face veils.
So the new ememy is the Blue Man Group? I never did trust them.
These tribesmen have many uses for the fundamentalist terrorists.
1. They range across seven African countries: Algeria, Mali, Burkina Faso, northern Benin, large parts of Niger, Nigeria and Mauritania. Al Qaeda operatives traveling with the Tuareg have access to terrorists and smugglers away from prying eyes. In all these places, except for Algeria, security is lax.
2. For a terrorist moving around in northwest Africa, the blue veil is the perfect disguise.
3. Al Qaeda agents have learned some of the Tuareg tribesâ Berber dialects and use them as a form of internal code to guard their secrets from Western ears.
The West African Jamâa stages terrorist attacks only very rarely. Al Qaeda experts believe that even those few are carried out to divert attention from their main missions in the Sahara, which are the smuggling of arms, money and drugs. For instance, al Qaedaâs drug shipments from Afghanistan to Europe, a primary source of funding for terrorist attacks, are routed by the West Africa Jamâa through the Sahara. Some people in counter-terror agencies believe that if anyone knows where al Qaeda has stowed its nuclear materials, it would be bin Mukhtar, who rules the West African wing of the terror organization and is also exceptionally well-connected with Russian, Central Asian, Balkan and Persian Gulf mafias. Because of Its functions and connections, the West African Jamâa is al Qaedaâs operational arm in the international crime world.
DEBKA-Net-Weekly reports that British intelligence has mapped the route by which the explosives used in London reached the British Isles in the last two years:
Stage One: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, or another senior terrorist planner located in the Middle East, employed Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese crime mobs to relay the money for purchasing explosives to the Serbian Mafia in Belgrade, which specializes in the acquisition of illicit weapons. Al Qaeda transferred directives to the London bomb team by the same route.
Stage Two: The purchased explosives â only a part of the consignment was used, in the view of British investigators â were shipped from the Balkans to West Africa and conveyed by local smugglers to al Qaeda agents of the West African Jamâa living among the Tuareg.
Stage Three: The explosives were divided into small packages for dispatch to the UK. Some of the merchandise was carried by smugglers boats sailing from Africa to Spain or Gibraltar, some through Algeria or Morocco.
#7
It's possible, but not probable.There's roughly 1.3 to 2 million million of the nominally Islamic Tuareg. There still are Tuareg caravans, but reportedly most of them have ceased being nomadic. However, they did fight against the goverments of Mali and Niger until the mid 1990's.
#8
While they picked several valid situations, the problem lies in weaving them together. Yes, one can buy weapons in Serbia. Yes, the Tuareg exist along yet another ancient smuggling route. Yes, Zarqari plans and schemes in the Middle East. However, the distance between Belgrade and London is about 1000 miles, whereas the distance from Belgrade to Mali to London is about 5000 miles, and a considerably harder trip, with far fewer modern conveyances, so why not smuggle the explosives directly? Second of all, Mr Z might just be a little distracted right now, what with losing almost all of his senior subordinates and getting shot. Third, there *is* a *real* connection between the bombers and Pakistan, and their chemist and Egypt, so Occam's razor would suggest that the Brits should sniff around there before making investment into the meanderings of Tuareg.
#9
I agree, Debka is out to lunch on this. You only have to consult a map to understand that the Tuareg live in a vast incredibly remote area. It would be a good place to hide out but using it for logistics or trans-shipping drugs makes absolutely no sense.
#10
The Tuaregs are great and renowned smugglers who are largely cut off from the rest of the world. Traditionally they are herders and traders.
These people were subjugated and brought into Islam by force over the past few centuries, but are renowned for their bravery in battle and their elusiveness.
It's not news that they are engaged in smuggling, what the hell else are they going to do. Race camels maybe. They still try to maintain a nomadic lifestyle, but that is fading fast as cultural pressure comes to bear in the region, and an agrarian or semi agrarian economy is taking over their traditional stompin grounds.
Usually they work for a tribal leader, imam or sheikh locally who pimps out their services to the highest bidder, no ideaology involved on their end. Most are probably ignorant and illiterate and never even heard of a War on Terror, their just doin their camel thing. Heroin, nukes, hashish, c4, eggs, chickens, rugs, whatever. They still get their $1 a day and couldn't care less what they are carrying,unless they thought they could steal it and sell it for a profit.
Is Debka FOS? maybe, they generally have a pretty good take on this type of intelligence in the region. Better than most at least.
I know for a fact AIPAC takes them very, very seriously, and that their analysts are in contact with Debka's people often. Whatever that's worth.
#12
Smuggling is just unregulated trade. In the absence of the apparatus of a state, all trade is automatically smuggling. All nomads are also traders. The issue is not whether the Tuareg are smugglers, the issue is would you use them as part of a trans-shipment network, that's the part that makes no sense.
A London-based Islamic radical has praised the suicide bomb attacks on the capital. Hani Al-Sibaâi, an Egyptian-born academic, described the attacks that killed at least 55 people as âa great victoryâ that rubbed the noses of G8 countries in the mud. His inflammatory comments come as the government is preparing to create a new offence of âglorifying or endorsingâ terrorism, such as praising suicide bombers as martyrs.
Al-Sibaâi runs the Al-Maqreze Centre for Historical Studies from his home in Hammersmith, west London, and is a well known figure among Muslim radicals in Britain. According to the FBI, he is also a former leader of the outlawed Egyptian Islamic Jihad organisation, which later became part of Al-Qaeda.
In an interview with the Arabic Al-Jazeera television channel the day after the bombings, Al-Sibaâi claimed Tony Blair would âpay the priceâ for the âgrave errorâ of claiming the attacks were the work of Islamists before the completion of the police investigation. He claimed the bombings could have been the work of Zionist Americans or another western country hostile to Britain. His comments echo those of other Islamic clerics, several of whom in Pakistan claimed the real perpetrators came from countries unhappy that Britain will host the 2012 Olympics. Al-Sibaâi continued: âIf Al-Qaeda indeed carried out this act, it is a great victory for it. It rubbed the noses of the worldâs eight most powerful countries in the mud. The victory is a blow to the economy.â
When asked about the killings of civilians by Islamists in Iraq, he denied that victims could be divided into combatants and non-combatants. âThe term civilian does not exist in Islamic religious law. There is no such term as civilians in the western sense. People are either of Dar al Harb [literally, house of hostility, meaning any non-Islamic government] or not.â When contacted yesterday, AlâSibaâi stood by most of his comments, although he said the remarks about the definition of civilians âmay have been mistranslatedâ.
Al-Sibaâi is one of a number of Islamist propagandists who may be subject to legal action under new measures being drawn up by the Home Office to curb âpreachers of hateâ. The new policy will be put to the test next month if another Muslim scholar, Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, attends a conference in Manchester.
Al-Qaradawi, 79, is banned from America for advocating child suicide bombers in the Middle East, although he has condemned the London bombings. He has reportedly said: âThe Israelis might have nuclear bombs but we have the children bomb and these human bombs must continue until liberation.â Al-Qaradawi, who was born in Egypt and is based in Qatar, was invited to Britain last year by Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London. His visit drew protests from Jewish groups and gay rights organisations. The Ramadhan Foundation, the Muslim educational institute organising the conference in Manchester on August 7, confirmed Al-Qaradawi was due to attend, if he was fit enough to travel. âHeâs the most famous scholar in the Arab world today,â said a spokesman.
Meanwhile, Asian communities in Britain are worried they are being targeted by the far right in ârevengeâ attacks for the bombings. About 500 âfaith hateâ and racist crimes have been reported to police in the past 10 days. The figure is normally 50-60 a week. The reprisals include arson attacks on several mosques and a Sikh temple. On Thursday, police arrested eight people at a pub in Leeds, near the homes of two of the London bombers. Yesterday, a man was charged with arson on a mosque in Birkenhead, Merseyside.
Posted by: ed ||
07/18/2005 09:23 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
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#3
Al-Qaradawi, who was born in Egypt and is based in Qatar, was invited to Britain last year by Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London. His visit drew protests from Jewish groups and gay rights organisations. The Ramadhan Foundation, the Muslim educational institute organising the conference in Manchester on August 7, confirmed Al-Qaradawi was due to attend, if he was fit enough to travel. âHeâs the most famous scholar in the Arab world today,â said a spokesman.---
this fellow has a popular TV show-I think it is own once a week- he frequently uses his air time to mock the 'moderate' Imans who disparage violence against infidels but he also criticizes Imans who encourage violence against the govt of Qatar and Saudi Arabia. People who have only seen pieces of this last part sometimes call him a moderate.
#2
Yep, duly noted. And they're all deprived, even though the "Youth" Centre was probably opened wuth some of my tax Bucks. The other point that these half-wits make is, they were/are trying to fit in with the "Community", ahem. I love free speech, so far.
I could not dig them-all a hole faster for them than they're doing it themselves.
TOP French anti-terrorist judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere has refused to say whether he thinks Australia is at risk of a terrorist attack.
Mr Bruguiere was responsible for interrogating Willie Brigitte, the suspected terrorist alleged to have been planning an attack in Sydney.
The judge was in Canberra today to exchange information with Attorney-General Philip Ruddock, but neither man would discuss the Brigitte case with the media.
Mr Bruguiere said international co-operation was vital to fighting terrorism, and he thanked Australia for its assistance.
"To be effective today, even more than yesterday, one has to be (working) in the international framework and to look all the time to international cooperation at all levels, intelligence, police work, and the legal systems," Mr Bruguiere said through an interpreter.
"The work that I am here to undertake shows that we are on both sides able to come up with the necessary response to the threat.
"You will understand that for security as well as for procedural reasons I will not enter in detail, either of the investigations I've been (making) with the various Australian agencies ... or the discussions I have had."
Asked if he believed there would be a terrorist attack in Australia, Mr Bruguiere said it was not for him to comment.
"What is important is that we should continue our cooperation," he said.
"If I am in Australia, it is that we have common interests, on affairs of common interest.
"But more important is that to meet a global threat we are now having a global response on all continents, whatever the political, constitutional or legal systems."
Mr Ruddock refused to comment on what Mr Bruguiere had told him about the Brigitte case, or any further potential threats to Australia.
"I would simply refer to the fact that there are on the public record matters relating to the Brigitte investigation and people have been committed to trial here in Australia arising out of that investigation," Mr Ruddock said.
"These are operational issues about which I don't normally talk."
Mr Bruguiere interrogated Brigitte, who is alleged to have links to al-Qaeda and to have travelled to Australia to carry out a terrorist attack.
The French judge is also reportedly interested in travelling to Perth to interrogate convicted Australian bomb plotter Jack Roche as part of a bid to better understand al-Qaeda.
MELBOURNE, July 17 (Bernama) --The world's leading terrorist hunter is on a secret mission in Sydney to investigate Australian links to global terrorism. French judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere and his team of anti-terror investigators arrived last week to hold talks with Australian security agents and terror suspects, according to The Sunday Telegraph newspaper.
Judge Bruguiere will meet Attorney-General Phillip Ruddock tomorrow and counter-terrorism officers from the Australian Federal Police later in the week. The judge and his team want to examine Australian and Southeast Asian links to global terrorism.
Judge Bruguiere, 60, has been at the forefront of the war on terror for 20 years and has spent the past 18 months interrogating Frenchman Willy Brigitte for his alleged involvement in the plot to bomb Sydney. Earlier last week, he was in Sydney meeting with the New South Wales state's counter-terrorism task force and the Department of Public Prosecutions to discuss the Brigitte investigation. According to the newspaper,
Judge Bruguiere made a formal request to Australian authorities earlier this year to interrogate jailed Australian terrorist Jack Roche in a Perth jail, and Brigitte's alleged accomplice, Faheem Lodhi.Roche, who met Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1997, has offered to provide information to authorities and testify against alleged terrorists in foreign courts in return for a more lenient sentence.
Dubbed by the French as Le Cowboy, Judge Bruguiere is best known for tracking down international terrorist Carlos the Jackal in 1994 and foiling an attack during the 1998 soccer World Cup in France. He is keen for other countries to adopt a French-style system, enabling authorities to hold a suspect for up to two years without charge.
#2
like many women she can look like hell one day and be attractive the next
but whatever she looks like she has a very good PR engine --- I'd love to have the intellectual Islamic apostates get 10% of the publicity she has gotten
#3
But Manji says recent research shows all that virgin stuff was based on an erroneous translation of the Koran: what awaits in heaven are 72 raisins. What? Could 54 people really have been blown up for a bag of raisins? âWell in 7th century Arabia raisins were so exalted as to be promoted to paradise.â
So if it's 72 raisins, not 72 virgins (or 72 Virginians!) will that affect recruiting of boomers?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/18/2005 12:01 Comments ||
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#4
She points out that American mosques display signs proclaiming: âGod bless Americaâ; inconceivable here.
I'm having trouble conceiving of that here myself.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/18/2005 12:29 Comments ||
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#6
ââ¬ÅYes, decentralisation would be good if it encouraged people to debate. But instead people just cower to their local imam.ââ¬?
If I had the time I would create a website called ImamWatch. We should be informed of every hate spewing speech these cretins give, then send in the hit squad.
#7
Heard her on radio5 talk-show, this a.m. Sounded quite moderate, Apart from the bit that we deserved slaughter, and must look at ourselves and our leaders, just before the bit about everything Allan made was beautiful?
But then a Real, self-declared "moderate" mossie phoned in to say she was an Extremist. (Probably because he wouldn't want his sister to love another girl, 'cos he loved her himself, if he had one). I surmise, because i had to turn the radio off, and go have a shower to get both their ventings washed away.
However, neither have washed away.
She is looking for a way to the Caliphate, just as he is, just, some want lesbian raisins, and some don't know what a raisin is, but they're sure they're real good.
via JihadWatch
Mohammad Momin Khawaja remains locked up in maximum-security detention at Ottawa's Regional Detention Centre, as he has for more than a year, denied bail as he stands accused of conspiring in a plot to blow up British citizens.
On the face of things, that alleged plot bears a remarkable resemblance to the jihadist strike that killed 53 Londoners on the city's transit system last week. And as investigators in London grapple with how four homegrown lads became suicide bombers, they may well see an important case study in the matter of a 26-year-old Canadian and his alleged British and U.S. cohorts.
Allegations of that previous plot remain a major concern in their own right: Sources say U.S. President George W. Bush brought up Mr. Khawaja when he met Prime Minister Paul Martin at a security summit in Texas during the spring.
Presumed innocent while awaiting trial, Mr. Khawaja's life bears some parallels to the bombers who died in last week's carnage, according to broadcast and news reports. He wasn't always regarded as particularly zealous, but a friend of his said in an interview that his personality seemed to change after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Family and friends knew him as a harmless, even shy, young man, but he also allegedly took an interest in playing paintball and firing guns, even using code names for fear of being watched.
He didn't escape attention. Months before he was accused of terrorism, Mr. Khawaja allegedly travelled to Pakistan, where he is said to have become close to an admitted al-Qaeda-linked figure. That 30-year-old man, a Pakistani American named Mohammed Junaid Babar, has pleaded guilty in a New York court to running training camps and procuring ammonium nitrate, an explosive chemical, for al-Qaeda.
"They wanted to, you know, plot or target some targets in the U.K.," Mr. Babar told a judge when he pleaded guilty, without naming names. Now co-operating with police, he said that plot fell apart in "March of '04."
A day after the Senate Armed Services Committee heard testimony that detainees at Guantanamo Bay were being tortured with women's underwear, Committee member Ted Kennedy announced he would make his first-ever visit to the facility.
"Thash righ'! I'm goin'! Trixie, help me up! Tiffany, gimme my coat! [Hic!]"
Investigators told Kennedy and his Armed Services colleagues on Wednesday that Gitmo interrogators forced a detainee to wear a bra, put women's g-string panties on his head, ordered him to dance with a male interrogator and forced him to stand naked in front of women, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I am deeply concerned about the failure - indeed, outright refusal - of our military and civilian leaders to hold higher-ups accountable," Kennedy told reporters after hearing about the lingerie torture.
Teddy? Pliers are torture. Truncheons are torture. Ladies' underwear is recreation to some people.
Thursday night, the Massachusetts Democrat announced that he planned to personally inspect the facility, telling the Boston Globe that the purpose of his trip would be "to meet with officials, ask questions of their practices, and see firsthand their operations."
"Thash righ'! I'm goin'! Don't try and hold me back!"
He's also very interested in allegations of whiskey and cocaine torture.
#2
Teddy needs the bra and dance demo to find out first hand if those activities are indeed torture. Slap a study on it and write up a report. Give him a cigar and a glass of gin, pen, ink, and paper. Lock him in a room and give him 2 hours and see if he can write up some Churchillian stuff. LMAO!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/18/2005 2:05 Comments ||
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...detainees at Guantanamo Bay were being tortured with women's underwear
Excuse me, lingerie torture? This is utterly pathetic - how on earth did the situation get to this? Some of the those held would quite happily behead people and we're getting antsy about a g-string?
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/18/2005 3:49 Comments ||
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#5
So now are we going to outlaw prepping for interrogation? It is a proven fact that subjects remain resolute unless they are either threatened or humiliated. Take those techniques away, in the name of dignity for terrorists, and we might as well set them all free to terrorize.
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/18/2005 4:45 Comments ||
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#6
Ladies' underwear is recreation to some people.
Yeah, Teddy, lighten up. We're not torturing these people, we're expanding their cultural horizons.
Posted by: Darth VAda ||
07/18/2005 6:48 Comments ||
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#7
while it's fun to have a good laugh at the Senate's biggest clown - this story doesn't pass the smell test.
Do you really believe that anybody would have done this at Gitmo after what happened at Abu Gharib? This is BS! They are presenting this as a point of fact and we are happy to accept it cause Ted's such a bozo it could easily be true.
#8
"Excuse me, lingerie torture? This is utterly pathetic - how on earth did the situation get to this?"
We got to this sorry state of affairs by having the Democratic Party in control of Congress for most of the last century, and by a gradual-- but now nearly complete-- takeover of our media outlets and our education system by Leftist propagandists who are working their asses off to destroy everything that makes this country (and yours, as well) worth living in.
In a sane country not drugged out of its mind with the moral anesthetic dispensed by the Left, Teddy Kennedy and his kind would have been rounded up a long time ago, charged with high treason, convicted, and would now be mouldering in Leavenworth.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
07/18/2005 7:12 Comments ||
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#9
Torture, by definition, is looking at Teddy Kennedy in a teddy.
Posted by: ed ||
07/18/2005 7:12 Comments ||
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#10
OK. Let me see if I can comprehend the positions taken by the run-of-the-mill liberal:
o Men wearing women's panties in the course of their daily lives are simply practicing an alternative lifestyle, and we should tolerate and accept them.
o J. Edgar Hoover was a freak and a pervert because -- according to a mob boss's whore -- he wore women's clothes in private.
o Forcing mass-murderers and would-be mass murderers to wear panties during the course of interrogation is indistinguishable from applying 120V AC to their genitals, pulling their fingernails out with pliers, and raping their families in front of them.
o Ted Kennedy is one of America's premiere statesman, not a brain-damaged booze hound driven insane by his failure to live up to 1/100th of the success of his murdered brothers and his rejection of the American people.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 7:34 Comments ||
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#11
Robert! I think you've got it!
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/18/2005 7:45 Comments ||
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#12
Gitmo interrogators forced a detainee to wear a bra, put women's g-string panties on his head, ordered him to dance with a male interrogator and forced him to stand naked in front of women,
The interrogators who did this did not obtain any intelligence from this subject, and they caused a scandal. If the military is incapable of doing its own work propertly, then apparently Congress has to intervene and clean house for them.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/18/2005 7:55 Comments ||
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#13
Assuming you're correct, Mike, and they got no intel from this guy, does that mean the technique garnered no results with anyone?
The military is quite capable of doing it's work properly, not propertly, thank you.
And third, Mike, didn't 'Congress' already investigate? Didn't several Dems and 'Pubs visit Gitmo a few weeks ago?
Finally, Teddy is not Congress, and I believe he is " a brain-damaged booze hound driven insane by his failure to live up to 1/100th of the success of his murdered brothers and his rejection of the American people."
Goodbye.
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/18/2005 8:06 Comments ||
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#14
Hey Mike - just q question - who were the investigators? Who told them that this happened, were there witnesses - or is it just the word of a prisoner. You don't know - but you're locked and loaded like a good little soldier. Maybe if you if you get enough points, you can be invited to visit your Russian counterparts at Moving Together and they will let you ride on their vespas. Moving Together
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/18/2005 8:24 Comments ||
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#16
Re #14 (Bobby) does that mean the technique garnered no results with anyone?
In general, the disadvantages of these stupid interrogation gimmicks blatantly outweigh the advantages.
The military is quite capable of doing it's work properly, not propertly, thank you.
Thanks for the spelling correction!
And third, Mike, didn't 'Congress' already investigate? Didn't several Dems and 'Pubs visit Gitmo a few weeks ago?
One of the disadvantages of these stupid interrogations gimmicks is that the subsequent investigations go on and on and on and on.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/18/2005 8:27 Comments ||
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#17
Re #14 (2b) Maybe if you if you get enough points, you can be invited to visit your Russian counterparts at Moving Together and they will let you ride on their vespas.
Whatever.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/18/2005 8:28 Comments ||
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#18
so Spike - you're in on the secret intel? Boy we do need a housecleaning of linguistholes at State
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/18/2005 8:43 Comments ||
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#19
MS...what's the matter, don't know the answer to the questions regarding the facts? You don't know squat about this but you are ready to jump up and down like a monkey over it.
Go ask your team leader, maybe he can give you some good talking points.
#20
In general, the disadvantages of these stupid interrogation gimmicks blatantly outweigh the advantages.
What disadvantages? No physical harm, no real psychological damage to our people, and it's nowhere near real definition of torture. There'd be no downside if traitors like Kennedy weren't more interested in their personal power than US victory.
Christ, in WWII, if someone had whined that we were putting panties on the heads of unlawful combatants, they'd have been laughed out of the country. The only real scandal would be that we didn't just shoot them out of hand.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 8:51 Comments ||
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#21
Given that several of the 9/11 hijackers went to Olympic Garden in Vegas just prior to murdering thousands, I think their 'righteous purity' act is just that: an act.
These terrorists (sorry... I'm more honest then Ted) behead, rape, and truely torture innocent people. When they behead and murder (as in murder dead) innocent civilians its perfectly A-OK with Ted Kennedy.
When rumor of these terrorists claim that they might have womens panties on their heads Teddy Boy gets all upset.
#25
No basement-dweller would have as strong a love of the UN. I mean, c'mon, he said the money for the Oil-For-Kofi's-Retirement-And-Terrorists investigation should come from Iraqi funds!
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 9:06 Comments ||
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#26
probably not a matter of my underestimating Mikey, just overestimating the people who work at State. Still - he's always on right on point to parrot the pre-ordained daily DU and Moveon.org. talking points.
I think he's trying to get points to win a trip to the summer-camp of Nashi. Go Mikey
Hey Mike, have you gotten enough points to win your brown shirt with a Move on logo yet?
#28
Don't worry boys. Its all in the plan. While Teddy's there, we're going to let him take some of the worst boys home with him on a very heavily publicized release program. After the well plied celebration, the good news is, the Senator is going to have to drive everyone across a bridge we've erected over the bay to the airfield. We're looking for a trailer for the MSM to ride in while accompanying him on the run. For the photo opportunity of course.
Posted by: Karl ||
07/18/2005 9:37 Comments ||
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#29
Interesting enough, thats how the Police got
Marv Albert to 'fess up.
#35
Thanks to Michelle Malkin, I know why Teddy's doing this: today's the 36th anniversary of the murder of Mary Jo Kopechne.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 11:27 Comments ||
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#36
Mike wrote: "The interrogators who did this did not obtain any intelligence from this subject...."
Sorry, you're wrong:
Information from a prisoner alleged to have endured rough interrogation tactics at Guantanamo - Mohammad al-Qahtani - led to the capture of the alleged plotter behind the Sept. 11, attacks, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, said Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld June 14.
Furthermore, said the Pentagon chief, the information helped head off planned terror attacks.
#37
Funny how those things go isn't it RC? Teddy's mantra seems to be scrutinize all without mercy but with the benefit of righteous hindsight but, in the personal, don't look back, don't look back, don't look back (probably borrowed the phrase and logic from Jesse J. himself). No shame in Teddy's game. Oh no. His political white horse and armor routine always bugs me to no end not because it stinks of horse manure and urine (very unpleasant in the heat and humidity of DC) but rather because it all smells of blood and death. The blood of somebody he left to die and for which he has never been brought to account. You want a moral failing? It doesn't get much worse. Best part is that he and his ilk can't understand that when he mounts up on the old Kennedy moral warhorse at the convention or, as we see here on a smaller stage, the stench of brutal irony lingers for days after the rhetoric vanishes. Bastard.
#38
Re #36 (Growler): Information from a prisoner alleged to have endured rough interrogation tactics at Guantanamo - Mohammad al-Qahtani - led to the capture of the alleged plotter behind the Sept. 11, attacks, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, said Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld June 14.
That's a good comment, Growler, but I recall that this was a case where the prisoner stopped cooperating after these stupid gimmicks were applied.
I'm at work right now, but I'll research this matter this evening and try to post a relevant link.
.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/18/2005 13:06 Comments ||
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#39
Before she reformed the sister-in-law ran the hat-check stand at night club in NYNY that Teddy, Dodd and pals used to frequent.
It was a sucessor to Studio 54 and had a sister club in Flordia where the other Kennedy guy spied that girl and did his thing...
Anyway... The club was one of those (in the early 80s) that had tables covered with white lines for its rich spoiled customers. Teddy was a regular there and totally fcked up most of the time.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 13:18 Comments ||
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#41
Thank you, RC. In memory of Mary Jo:
http://www.ytedk.com/scandals.htm
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/18/2005 13:25 Comments ||
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#42
Mike - I assure you, we are all breathlessly await your highly intelligent, non-partisan, intellectual response in order to stimulate meaningful discussion.
#43
of course, we could just click here moveon.org
and click on campaigns to see what your team leaders are putting out for you to say.
Just curious, Mike, whose your team leader? Doesn't it bother you just a little bit that you are the same sort of loser-sap that Putin looks for? Losers Wanted That realization has to hurt.
#45
The moveon.org site says (about Karl 7 Valerie & joe, et al. - Newsweek magazine revealed that Karl Rove, the President's key political advisor, was responsible for disclosing the identity of undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame. Rove's lawyer has confirmed that he was involved. Last year, President Bush promised that anyone at the White House involved in the leak would be fired. We believe that the President should stick to his word. That's why we're calling on him to fire Karl Rove. Sign the petition.
Well, that's short and sweet! But, wait! That's not what the MSM friend-of-the-court brief said! That's not what Joe Wilson said yesterday, when he wouldn't state (one way or the other) if his wife had been out of the country during the last five years. Is MoveOn actually slanting stuff? Who do they think they are? Michael Moore?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/18/2005 16:02 Comments ||
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#46
Just wait till they uncover the really horrific stuff: forced recitations of "I'm a Little Teacup"...
#50
...wear a bra, put women's g-string panties on his head, ordered him to dance with a male interrogator and forced him to stand naked in front of women...
Wait a minute. They get all this for free? Cripes, I'm being overcharged by Mistress Domina bigtime!
#51
From The New York Times, June 21, 2004:
... Pentagon officials ... said the techniques prompted an important Qaeda member to give up vital information. But new details of that case, which involved a 26-year-old Saudi man who apparently tried unsuccessfully to enter the United States as the 20th hijacker in the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, call some of those assertions into question. Several officials familiar with the case said that for months, no one at Guantánamo even knew who the detainee, Mohamed al-Kahtani, was and that he was identified only after the Federal Bureau of Investigation stepped in. The officials also said that the harsher interrogation methods used against him were largely unsuccessful, that he had little sense of other Qaeda plots, and that he had been most forthcoming under more subtle persuasion. ...
The bureau [FBI] sent a longtime counterterrorism specialist who is fluent in Arabic and worked extensively on investigations of Al Qaeda. .... Over a series of interrogations that extended into the fall of 2002, the agent slowly built a rapport with Mr. Kahtani, approaching him with respect and restraint ... Mr. Kahtani began to open up, officials said. He disclosed that he attended an important Qaeda planning meeting with two of the Sept. 11 hijackers in Malaysia, in January 2000. Mr. Kahtani also said he had a relative he thought might be living near Chicago. The relative, Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri, is believed by officials to have been planted in the United States as a Qaeda "sleeper" agent. He was taken into custody as a material witness shortly after arriving in the country on Sept. 10, 2001, and was later confined to a Naval brig in Charleston, S.C., with two American citizens charged as "enemy combatants," Jose Padilla and Yaser Hamdi. One official said that Mr. Kahtani had admitted that he had intended to join the hijackers but that he had given up little or nothing about other Qaeda plans.
To some F.B.I. experts, officials said, his ignorance seemed credible: he had been recruited to be what the plotters called a "muscle" hijacker, someone to subdue passengers rather than pilot a plane. Officials said such lower-level operatives were generally only minimally informed even as to the details of attacks in which they would take part. But military intelligence officials were skeptical, believing that new approaches to Mr. Kahtani might well reveal plans for attacks that were to follow the hijackings or that might have involved Mr. Marri. In late November 2002, Pentagon officials informed the F.B.I. that they would take over interrogations of Mr. Kahtani, an official said. A list of 17 new interrogation techniques ... was approved by Mr. Rumsfeld in early December. Ten of the techniques were used on Mr. Kahtani before complaints from some military officials prompted Mr. Rumsfeld to retract his approval for the more extreme methods, military officials said. ...
Last month, a senior Bush administration official told The Times that Mr. Kahtani had provided information to interrogators "about a planned attack and about financial networks to fund terrorist operations." But several other officials disputed that characterization, saying he had not given any new information about plots by Al Qaeda. ...
==========
From Time Magazine (excerpted in Meades Maxim):
By itself, the log doesnât make clear how effective the interrogations were. The Pentagon contends that al-Qahtani has been a valuable source of information: providing details of meetings with bin Laden, naming people and financial contacts in several Arab countries, describing terrorist training camps where bin Laden lives and explaining how he may have escaped from Tora Bora in December 2001. Pentagon officials tell TIME that most of the intelligence gleaned from those sessions was recorded in other documents. ....
He starts to moan and asks again to be allowed to relieve himself. Yes, but first he must answer questions:
Interrogator: Who do you work for?
Al-Qahtani: Al-Qaeda
Interrogator: Who was your leader?
Al-Qahtani: Osama bin Laden
Interrogator: Why did you go to Orlando?
Al-Qahtani: I wasnât told the mission
Interrogator: Who was with you on the plane?
Al-Qahtani: I was by myself
.... He asks his handlers for some paper. âI will tell the truth,â he says. âI am doing this to get out of here.â He finally explains how he got to Afghanistan in the first place and how he met with bin Laden. .... al-Qahtani takes back the story he told the day before about meeting bin Laden.
The log reports that al-Qahtani makes several comments to interrogators that imply he has a big story to tell, but interrogators report that he seems either too scared or simply unwilling, to tell it. On Jan. 10, 2003, al-Qahtani says he knows nothing of terrorists but volunteers to return to the gulf states and act as a double agent for the U.S. in exchange for his freedom. Five days later, Rumsfeldâs harsher measures are revoked ....
Senior Pentagon officials told TIME that some of his most valuable confessions came not during the period covered in the log or as a result of any particular technique but when al-Qahtani was presented with evidence coughed up by others in detention, especially Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, or KSM, the alleged mastermind of 9/11. The intelligence take was more cumulative than anything else, says a Pentagon official. Once al-Qahtani realized KSM was talking, the official speculates, al-Qahtani may have felt he had the green light to follow suit.
==========
So, I was right again!
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/18/2005 20:01 Comments ||
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#52
You're right, Mikey. No reason to subject the terrorists to any discomfort during interrogations.
It's time to start the tribunals and executions, anyway.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 20:12 Comments ||
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#53
I don't care if his execution is painless. Just do it.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/18/2005 20:39 Comments ||
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#54
Mike Sylwester - a known liar and apologist for tyrants and thieves - quotes the NYT - guilty of the same - loser and scum. Less than a troll - on the other side. Remember that and treat him accordingly
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/18/2005 21:00 Comments ||
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#55
So when did Teddy boy become the arbiter of moral values?
#56
for the Donks - when they allowed him. I call him a woman-killing drunk with nannystate pretentions to cover for his lack of stature in the Kennedy hierarchy, and an inflated sense of self-importance (and denial of his real image...)
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/18/2005 21:11 Comments ||
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#57
Teddy boy became the arbiter of moral values after he had committed just about every sin he could without going to jail. He knows both sides firsthand, John Q.
http://www.ytedk.com/scandals.htm
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/18/2005 21:12 Comments ||
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#58
did I leave out bloated dinosaur?
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/18/2005 21:15 Comments ||
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A Republican congressman said in a radio interview aired by a Florida station that if a multiple-city attack happened in the United States in the next 90 days, as predicted by an Israeli expert, and was found to be the work of extremist Muslims, then "we should take out their holy sites." Congressman Thomas G Tancredo, Republican from Colorado, was being interviewed by AM 540 WFLA radio host Pat Campbell, who asked him what the response of the United States should be were terrorist attacks on US cities to take place and were attributable to extremist Muslims. The Congressman replied, " ... then we could take out their holy sites." Asked if that meant Mecca, Tancredo answered, "Yes."
Goddammit! It was supposed to be a surprise!
Posted by: Fred ||
07/18/2005 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[11 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
It has long been suggested that the threat of doing so has really kept the Saudis in check. The $64 question is the actual target list, which have some interesting possibilities: Mecca (or just the Kaaba), Medina, the Mosque of the Rock in Jerusalem (!), and Masshad (Iran); whereas Najaf (Iraq) and Samarra (Iraq) are non-targets. A lot depends on who is responsible, Shiites or Sunnis. Several of the primary targets and most of the secondary targets would need plausible deniability, that is, the US would destroy them covertly, with the reasonable suggestion that somebody else might have done it. Maybe even blaming the Chinese or Norks.
#5
It needs to be said again, and again, and we need to mean it. Task at least 2 subs with the job. Termo nuclear strikes on all the sites except, the Dome of the Rock, Use concrete smart bombs on it, Tell Israel to stay out of our way.
#6
Assassaination? Seal team hit and run on lead inciting clerics
We should be doing that anyway, and the message should be very, very clear. You vocalize threats even non specific threats, you will disappear into that good night.
And we should be doing that in Europe, Canada and the UK.
Posted by: Jan ||
07/18/2005 1:08 Comments ||
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#8
We should be doing that anyway, and the message should be very, very clear. You vocalize threats even non specific threats, you will disappear into that good night.
Isn't that how the Soviets used to operate? I always thought that that would be a great way to send a message. A pattern of clerics biting the dust shortly after uttering threats against the U.S., direct and indirect, just couldn't go unrecognized.
#10
Such an attack would be Al Qaeda's wet dream, nothing else would be more likely to bring about an Islamist uprising against Muslim governments the world over.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/18/2005 2:34 Comments ||
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#11
Good. Then those governments can deal with their Islamists and we can deal with the ones who succeed.
#13
Well, I'll have to go contrarian on this one, and it would take a book to describe all my reasoning.
For starters... Sending "messages" only works if you're from the same or similar cultures. Threatening a response puts the timing in the bad guys' hands. It would just be swatting the hornet's nest - emotionally satisfying, but with a big chunk of our troops tied up for the next ~2 years, would we be able to respond where needed? M.E. stability's highly overrated, but this would bring the loonies out world-wide.
#14
And the way to stop the funding is to get off oil dependence. It will happen. The open issue is how big a train wreck has to occur before people get into their thick heads that with abundant nuclear power, oil is worth next to nothing and we will worry as much about the Middle East as we worry about whats happening the Congo.
#15
Who cares how Muslims would respond to the annihilation of Mecca and Medina? 5,000 Americans have died at terrorist hands, from Sept. 11, 2001. I am already sick of the neverending wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the West Bank and Thailand and Chechnya and Phillipines and Indonesia and Kashmir. Nukes are certain to fly in the near future. Why not up the date?
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/18/2005 4:52 Comments ||
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#16
Dunno, nuking Mekka, albeit laudable enterprise would have sort of mixed results, I think. Probably some sort of response would be in equation, Pakiwakis by default. Ultimately, Mekka erasure would mean a demise of the moon-god worship, that is probably a safe bet.
However,a high energy discharge arc, lightning bolt, but biiiiig (hope someone is reviewing Tesla inventions) would be probably attributed to a divine intervention. For a fun, if possible, the bolt should carve big YWHW in Hebrew letters in place of the town to show who's the boss. ;-)
#17
SPoD - 2 submarines? That's an awful lot of missiles, 2 boats * 24 tubes * 8 MIRVs of 475kT each (23 Hiroshimas) = 384 warheads. That's a lot of targets, but I guess It would be reasonable to assume that the SIOP has been changed to accomodate these targets. Oh, and as you say, make a special case of the Dome.
I've heard the theory that this threat has 'kept the Saudis in check', but they haven't really done that have they - still the sermons blare out, they send fighters into Iraq and it seems they're trying to buy ready make nukes from the Norks/Pakis. I totally agree that assasinations (highly visible and covert) should have been happening since 9/11, as well as funding been cut off whereever we are able to.
Is it possible that this congressman has been briefed to say this?
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/18/2005 4:59 Comments ||
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#18
Is it possible that this congressman has been briefed to say this?
Doubtful he'd have needed any encouragement. He took a potshot at the recent Chinese comments fairly quickly, ditto the former Mexican official's comments, and is working hard on border security issues. In addition some of the ratings of his voting record are a hoot: 5% by the ACLU, 0% by the Arab American Institute, 0% year after year by the NEA, 0% by the Coalition to stop gun violence, 0% by the Service Employees International Union, 0% by the ABA, etc. He's just one of the good guys.
By the way, that was a terrific comment of yours on Saturday (taqqiya etc), which I wanted to laud in that thread, but the comment shutters had come down on that particular post (time zones'll do that to yer).
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/18/2005 6:08 Comments ||
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#20
Second the motion, Tony. I saved Azcat's "lesson" on my computer for future reference/distribution.
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/18/2005 7:24 Comments ||
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#21
Mecca, Medina and all the other Muslim holy sites.
I don't think we have enough warheads.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 7:29 Comments ||
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#23
Raptor, Comment #54, but there's excellent stuff all the way through.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/18/2005 8:52 Comments ||
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#24
Ok,now I remember.Boy it's gotten to the point where it is hard to recall everything I read.I guess I'm going to have to weed out some of the blogs a check out daily.Of 18 sites RB is still my favorite:informative,wide range of opinions,and at times ranging from the sublime to hilarious.
#27
What is it about the Colorado congressmen lately that makes me go, OOORAH!
Even that weirdo Salazar has said some good stuff and was the only democrate to vote for both admendments to boost the border patrol. Must be something in the water here.
#29
Methinks it would be a shame if a super lethal variety of avian flu emerged the vaccine and cure for which only western science could find and produce. Worse yet, what if those societies, seething with righteous idignation over destructive sociopathic injustices arising from the hands of a certain sick segment of the world, chose to withold the vaccine and cure from the little El-Eichmanns leaving them to suffer the burdens of their ignorance the fountain of which is evident. Why hell, shouldn't they then thank us for not imposing our culture and values upon them?! Tell me who among the faithful needs modern western medicine anyway. They all know the vaccine would actually be a zionist sterilization conspiracy anyway, right?
#30
And the way to stop the funding is to get off oil dependence.
It seems like a great idea, but it won't work. First, we aren't buying much Arabian oil. Second, oil is a fungible commodity. If we "get off oil dependence", it will just make oil cheaper for China, India and every other oil importing country. They will be happy to pay Arabians for the now cheaper oil to expand their energy inefficient economies. What we have to do is produce a BTU of energy at lower cost than the Arabs, and that is very hard to do without environmental consequences. The oil business has always been volatile. A year from now, I am certain we will look back at current gas prices in disbelief, especially if the Saudi's want the Republicans to win.
So, if we want to make a decision to shake the oil habit, we need to do so on national security grounds, not economic ones. This would mean massive subsidization of nuclear and taxation of petroleum. But Bush stupidly expanded government spending by subsidizing drugs for those near death. So we've traded energy independence away for an additional 3-6 months (?) of the worst years of our lives. Thanks Bush/AARP.
#31
Nuking Muslim holy places is a bad idea unless we want to start an all out religious war. And that is not a good idea because the only way to win is genocide. Let's not head down that trail if we can avoid it.
Instead, if we are attacked, we are going to have to repond appropriately to the attackers. If something rose to the level of serious suggestion of a nuclear response, I would prefer to first disarm Pakistan using conventional weapons and eliminate it's ability to restart its weapons program. If that means a major war with Pakistan, so be it. Escalate as necessary. But at least it is localized as opposed to declaring war on the religion of 1/4 of the world's population. Better to change their minds.
#32
Tony / Bobby - Thanks guys but my rant yesterday wasn't really intended as a "lesson" as Iâm not qualified to give one and I'd urge you not to simply quote me as I'm certainly no scholar of Islam. Rather than forwarding what I said why not just visit a few Islamic sites and get your info straight from the camel's mouth? Most of what I posted yesterday that's referred to above is from a Wahabbi fatwah on jihad that can be found on islamqa.com. Another good read on jihad can be found on sunnipath.com (gets interesting about halfway through). Invariably these folks don't translate everything so Answering Islam's dictionary or something like it will be a must.
IMHO taking some time to browse Islamic sites critical as thereâs a very different sort of reasoning that takes place in Islam. Besides the cheap entertainment youâll get some valuable information on occasion. For example, you never know when you might need to know how many Hail Marys a Wahabbi is required to say to be absolved of the sin of masturbating in a mosque during the Hajj. Other times youâll run across trivial things thatâll give you pause like this gem from a hadith
Narrated 'Ikrima from Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again.â
Interesting no? Next time you see a Muslim cleric flatly stating that {insert reference to perpetrators of latest murderous act of Islamic terrorism} were not Muslims you now have some options for interpretation of his statement: Taqiya? Muslim before the murders, not Muslim at the moment of the murders, Muslim again after the murders? A reformed Muslim who picks and chooses only the peaceful parts of his religion (see e.g., Irshad Manji) as the jihadis pick and choose only the violent ones? Or perhaps heâs just a lying sack of shit in the more traditional sense. Probably more relevant than the truth or falsity of such a statement is the fact that its truth or falsity is both unknown and probably unknowable to us as weâll never be sufficiently versed in Islam to conduct the requisite hours of cross examination necessary to really dig out the basis for the statement and without the full thought process behind the statement, the statement itself is utterly meaningless.
#34
Thanks for the links AzCat. It's a perverse read if you add a little historical context to the excess verbiage to which muslim clerical types are prone. The fundamental differences in the "us and them" system provided arises in how to deal with the "them." The ready tradition and historical treasure of domination and brutal violence is what makes islam special. I don't know another major religion where you can find quite the same baggage. I don't know another major religion where that baggage is so widely considered essential to the faith and taught as such be it in veiled language and a nod to the types of violent behavior justified or through outright expressions of hatred for the "them".
#35
Wow, it was only a year or two ago that I felt a bit marginalized for even suggesting such a thing here at RB! Of course, it was probably Gentle, AK, and MS taking me to task for it.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/18/2005 13:40 Comments ||
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#36
"Nuking Muslim holy places is a bad idea unless we want to start an all out religious war"
It's a little late for that. Radical Islam declared war on us a long time ago. We just decided to start fighting back after 9/11.
#37
Nuking Mecca would not resolve a thing.
Should there really be severe multiple attacks on US cities with hundredthousands or millions of lives lost, there is only one way.
Confiscate anything, oilfields, Arab money... everything to be used for reparations. Vacate the area around oilfields, starve them out economically.
No money, no terror on a bigger scale. And while the US is not importing large quantities of oil from the Middle East YET, this will change in the next years.
Don't menace them with nuking Mecca. Menace them with reparations and you'll scare the Middle Eastern States into doing something against terrorists.
#38
uences, you and I are agreeing (almost). In the medium to long term all energy sources are fungible (with a limited number of exceptions that don't affect the argument), that is you can interchange oil, coal, nuclear, solar, etc. As a result the value of any energy source is the cost of producing the cheapest energy source. Nuclear is far and away the cheapest source of energy today (ask the French) and the barriers to building more facilities are almost all legislative and risk related (mostly litigation).
#39
Good points all round here, there's the visceral desire to hit back when struck, the ever-present danger of really turning this conflict into a religious armageddon and of course the fact that oil is fungible and so the Arab countries will just sell it to someone else.
So, what to do in the event of another attack? Well, if Arab society, and by implication the Muslim world, wants to live in the 7th century, then we should let them. That effectively means doing what TGA says, confiscate as much property, money and most importantly, the oil fields as the West feels necessary. Guard the oilfields and make them a no-go zone for anyone the West doesn't trust.
As I write this, I'm starting to wonder - perhaps GW *hasn't* told the Saudis that Mecca and Medina and the other 10,000 holy places of Islam will be turned into ash. Perhaps he's said he's going to take all their money, all their property, all the oil and create .coms' Republic of East Arabia?
How? The troops in Iraq take a left-turn into SA, and the Iraqi's are left to fend for themselves.
Does this sound feasible?
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/18/2005 18:37 Comments ||
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#40
Please can we save 3 Tomahawks for Mad-Bad Mugabe when the Chinese war starts.
I agree with Az-Cats observerations, but have stopped reading their scraps. Heard it on the Radio from the Lip-Stick Lesbian, that the Underground/bus bombers in London were wrong to do that stuff, but if they believed it when they did it, it's really ok.
Sick. That's all I need to know.
#41
"Such an attack would be Al Qaeda's wet dream, nothing else would be more likely to bring about an Islamist uprising against Muslim governments the world over."
Yeah but they'll continue to Hajj into the radioactive zone because that's one of the pillars of Islam. The Islamic problem will take care of itself before long.
#42
Much better to really show them what happens when we take Isreals' side. Expel Muslims from Jerusalem entirely and level the Dome of the Rock as Punishment. If lives mean nothing to them then attack what does, property and symbolism. Then tell what the next target is Medina.
It might be Bin Laden's wet dream but I hardly think his footsoldiers, indoctrinated into fighting to preserve Islam, are going to do anything to risk their Holy Cities.
#43
Tony, there are a number here, myself included, who think the left turn into SA is (or at least should be) the fallback plan if the shit ever really hits the fan. If SA can't ensure the supply continues then the USA and its allies will step in and do so. The interesting bit is the role a Shiia controlled Iraq will play.
#44
While the nuke option is compelling on several levels, I just don't see it happening because of the downwind fallout issue. We also need to get at the SA oil for the forseeable future and having it be a radioactive wasteland will put a serious crimp in that.
I like TGA's (and several other's) plan to just take their money, assets and oil in reparation. Drive them all out of eastern SA and take it over as an American protecterate. What to do with Pakistan is another story. Nuke's are, again, off the table because India is downwind. There are literally millions of nut cases there who we will have to deal with. How, I don't know. Maybe India does that work.
BTW: Hugh Hewitt said Tancredo is an idiot for saying this and should apologize profusely. Says it makes it appear we are out to destroy all of Islam and pushes the religous war button. Like others here, I think that button has already been pushed.
#45
It's almost certain that there is going to be another attack - whether in the US (the main target), the UK (little satan) or somewhere else - I doubt Spain will get hit again, as they've shown themselves to be good dhimmi.
So, what happens then - general religious war leading to genocide? (guess who loses there; the Muslims, their lives and countries; the West, perhaps what it means to be a Westerner), wholesale deportation of Muslims from all Western countries (including Israel) to Pakistan and the Middle East (having de-fanged the Mullahs and the Pakis beforehand) and let them fight it out in their 7th century 'paradise'?, confiscation of any and all resources that the West wants?, either way there will be a huge number of Muslims that die if there is another attack. Too many people now know a lot more about Islam, and they don't seem to be liking what they hear.
Any further thoughts on that?
I'd prefer a combination of deportation and confiscation, as I don't believe that the West would go the whole way with a general religious war. Why? because the level of attack that the Islamists can achieve at the moment is unlikely to be greater than the 3,000 killed in 9/11 *unless* WMDs are used. It's human nature to get used to repeated events, and so if another 9/11 takes place, I don't *think* the US will go postal (sadly, looking at the issues that are getting attention, g-strings on terrorists heads FFS, I think the first response will be to blame anyone other than the perpetrators) - but I could easily be wrong, the US might shrug and say 'to Hell with them' and deal with the afermath later.
The wild cards here of course are the Pakis and the MM's - the Islamic nuclear powers (and possibly SA if they've bought some from the Paks/Norks). WMDs on the continental US (or the UK for that matter) means that all bets are off.
Thoughts?
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/18/2005 19:32 Comments ||
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#46
Says it makes it appear we are out to destroy all of Islam and pushes the religous war button.
Wars continue until one side has inflicted sufficient punishment on the other that the opponent loses the desire to continue the fight to uphold / enforce / propagate their ideals. I don't believe there has ever really been a major strategic victory that was not the result of just such a capitulation. I don't enjoy the thought of the necessity of applying the force it will take to bring the present conflict to an end but I'm resigned to the (IMHO) fact that it will be necessary if we are to prevail.
#47
Understand the sentiment, but I agree with .com, and my reasoning is this: a simple issue (like the destruction of Mecca, etc.) would unite even the middle-of-the-road or nominal Moslem world to the extremists. In fact, I wouldn't put it past the Islamofacists to blow it up themselves and then blame it on the West, just to do that very thing. The enemy (i.e., the West) would be succinctly and undisputeably defined if that happened, and to Moslem thinking, the "enemy" would, from that point on, NEVER be the terrorists. It also would serve to turn all the terrorists (both living and dead) into "heroes" overnight (especially Binny). Besides, logically, the percentage of the world's Moslems that are actually behind the terrorists is debatable. It's a bad idea, and Tancredo was an idiot for suggesting it.
#48
Ex-lib - implicit in your statement is the thought that there is some majority of moderate Muslims who can coexist peacefully forever with other belief systems. What if the moderate view is that warring against and killing the Infidels *is* sanctioned by Islam and the debate is merely one of timing, justification, and reasoning rather than goals, strategies, and desired outcomes? Perhaps nuking Mecca is still a silly idea but strong measures then become harder to dismiss, no?
#51
Re #45: Tony, it didn't take long for the U.S. to link 9/11 to a whole lot of Saudis. And yet we haven't significantly punished the Saudis. They're still a terrorist breeding pit as evidenced by the flow of terrorists into Iraq. I'm of the impression that, except for rounding up some people hostile to the royals, the Saudi response has been media relations and some textbook editing. I can't imagine that we would nuke anything there until we twist the royals' arms a heck of a lot harder. It can't start soon enough to satisfy me.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/18/2005 20:50 Comments ||
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You know, what the hell would be wrong with that? The friggin religious is evil and the culture is one of death.
The Monsoon switch the way the wind blows. I'm not sure which way is when, but there is at least a 4-month part of the year when fallout from Pakiwakiland would go over Iran. Bonus.
#54
We should be thankful for Congressman Tancredo telling the truth: nuking Mecca is an option IF Islamofascists pull off another major attack on US soil. It HAS to be an OPTION. It needs to be said, so Moslems start to think about what they will loose if they don't abandon their ideology of taqiya, jihad, and sharia. So far, the US and coalition partners have fought with great restraint. No lesson has been learnt by the jihadis.
As for fear of how the mythical moderate Moslems will react --I don't care. I only care about the freedom and prosperity of OUR LANDS, the West. As an added bonus, maybe razing Mecca would teach them a lesson on the falsity of their god.
IN the next few years, if we are going to defeat Islamofascism, we will have to defeat Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Syria. The last one is the easiest. Pakistan has nukes. Iran soon will, too. The Saud have huge oil fields and may have access to Paki nukes. As long as they don't transform themselves into tolerant societies--in less than 20 years-- the endgame is without a doubt nuclear.
#55
I agree on some points, Kalle - for instance just having someone of official capacity say it aloud will alter the debate and expand the envelope. Some will get it - that didn't before. I hope we are wrong about the nukes. I arrived at a level of acceptance it might be necessary awhile back, but that's not to say I like or desire it. I certainly do not want to have explain it to my grandchildren. Us or Them is very clear in the here and now, not so much once the revisionists have finished writing the "correct" history. Hiroshima & Nagasaki are easy examples of reality under constant forcible skew.
Taking care of Iran takes care of Syria. Taking care of Saudi crimps, but doesn't solve, the PakiWaki mess. Given their internals, they will probably off themselves by tweaking India one too many times. I want OUT of our deal with Pervy - he's about as worthwhile an ally as, well, as Mubarak, lol! The value meter barely registers, while the cost is pegged.
I stand by my comments, however. We need to free up our forces and focus our efforts on the threats most pressing. Whacking Mekkah solves zip - unless it is part of annihilation forced upon us. I'd say this will easily "come to a head" within 20 years.
Our #1 threat, IMO, is sabotage by internal subversives, no external force can actually threaten our existence without our guard being lowered / destroyed from within. They can wound us, but not beat us. That Moonbat next door, however, should be sterilized and fed soma 'round the clock.
What I find interesting is how the knowledge of the enemy and perception of necessary strategy+tactics has evolved on RB in the last years.
I think a corresponding shift has taken place in US society (and some European countries).
The moonbats are losing, every day. RB'ers are and must remain vigilant, and countless bloggers drive the leftists crazy with facts (evasion being the essence of moonbat behaviour).
When we defeat the moonbats at home, we'll have achieved 60% of the crucial work.
#57
Hmmm. I guess I've misunderstood many of your posts as I thought you were advocating a tripwire response.
I don't want to give the timing to them. I like The Bush Doctrine's approach, check off the boxes, try giving them a chance to redeem themselves through democracy, but maintain the pre-emption option, henceforth and forever.
I think we'll end up in a civil war of some sort. The rhetoric has already peaked at both ends - volume at Max, civility at Min. Where to from here, if not violence? We saw the tentative steps in the 2004 election. After Bush I don't know who we will have, but if the Dhimmis lose again, I expect serious escalation. As you say, Moonbats are very good at reality, lol!
Arsonists have attacked the base of a small inter-faith sect in Malaysia called the Sky Kingdom. The sect is noted for building a giant teapot to symbolise its belief in the healing purity of water, and is accused of luring Muslims away from Islam. A lawyer for the sect, Haris Mohamad Ibrahim, said that about 30 armed men dressed in Arab robes had attacked the commune with Molotov cocktails. No-one was injured in the attack, which caused a small fire.
The sect - based in the strongly Muslim state of Terengganu - claims to promote harmony between religious groups. Its leader, Ayah Pin, says he is the saviour of the world. He has attracted believers from many different religious groups with his message of love and tolerance. He claims to allow his followers to be members of any faith, including Islam. Earlier this month, the group was raided by police, and 21 followers were arrested for possessing documents contrary to Islam. They were all freed on bail pending a court appearance in September. Members have been jailed in the past for attempting to renounce Islam, and the group's bizarre constructions have been deemed to be against local regulations.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/18/2005 04:49 ||
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30 armed men dressed in Arab robes
Musta been a bunch of Unitarians.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 7:24 Comments ||
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21 followers were arrested for possessing documents contrary to Islam...Members have been jailed in the past for attempting to renounce Islam
Sounds like a nice, free country, this Malaysia. Keep this case in mind the next time someone claims it's a "moderate" country.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 7:25 Comments ||
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Oh it's moderate. Any other Muslim country, it'd be an unreported scorch-mark on the ground.
#9
When I first read this, I thought it was a Monty Python sketch - I mean really, picture the scene:
Group of people sitting around a giant teapot discussing the benefits of 'milk before tea', talking about the weather and generally being nice to each other when all of a sudden a bunch of turbans come hurtling around the corner lobbing Molotovs! - and then they turn out to be totally incompetent, 30 armed men hurling petrol bombs and just starting a small fire? - pathetic!
I half expected to see John Cleese mentioned in it somewhere.
The depressing thing is that we'll probably hear some time later on that they've all been killed by representatives of the RoP.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/18/2005 20:08 Comments ||
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BEIRUT - The Lebanese parliament voted on Monday for an amnesty bill paving the way for the release of Lebanese Forces (LF) leader Samir Geagea after 11 years imprisonment. The strong alliance between the LF, the Future Current Movement of late prime minister Rafik Hariri and the Democratic Gathering of Druze leader Walid Jumblatt, which hold the majority of seats in the 128-member parliament, led to the agreement by most of the countryâs political factions on the release of Geagea.
According to initial reports, some 100 deputies voted for his release.
Geagea, the only Lebanese warlord to be jailed, was sentenced to life imprisonment in part for his role in the assassination of former prime minister Rashid Karameh and Christian rival Dany Chamoun. He was jailed after being accused of carrying out a 1994 church bombing that killed 11 people in north Beirut. He was found not guilty of the attack but remained in jail after being sentenced to death for other cases, including the assassination of premier Karami in 1987 and other Christian leaders such as Chamoun. His sentence was later commuted to life in prison, but Amnesty International for one has accused the Lebanese authorities of mistreating him in his isolated defence ministry prison cell. Lawyer and civil rights activists Ziad Baroud said releasing Geagea was necessary to ensure national reconciliation and in accordance with the impartiality of the 1990 amnesty law linked to the crimes of the civil war.
Geagea, 53, a Christian Maronite who hails from the town of Becharre in northern Lebanon, headed the Christian Lebanese Christian Force in 1985 after he overthrew former LF leader Elie Hobeika, who was assassinated in 2003 in a car bomb blast. The LF was founded in 1978 by then president Bashir Gemayel, who was assassinated by a pro-Syrian militant in a bomb blast at his office in 1982. Gerges Khoury, a Lebanese Forces militant and Geageaâs right-hand man who surrendered himself to Interior Security Forces in March 1994, is also expected to benefit from the amnesty law. Geagea will be released after the amnesty bill is signed by pro-Syrian Lebanese President Emile Lahoud and is published in the Lebanese press. Sources close to Geagea told DPA that after his release he will leave the country immediately. âHe will head from his jail to an undisclosed destination,â the sources said.
The amnesty bill also includes detainees from Majdel al Anjar and Dinniyeh. The Dinniyeh detainees were arrested in 2000 after clashes with the Lebanese army during which 12 Lebanese army personnel were killed, including an officer. The clashes were between the army and a Sunni fundamentalist group with suspected links to Osama bin Ladenâs Al Qaeda group. The Majdel al Anjar detainees were arrested by the Lebanese army in 2004 for having suspected links with Arab militants travelling to Iraq.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/18/2005 14:40 ||
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Bush administration officials, barred from having direct contact with Hizbollah members who may join a new Lebanese government, have opened talks with one of the group's closest allies, administration officials said. A diplomatic source involved in the discussions described the role of Trad Hamadeh, a Lebanese government minister who is closely aligned with Hizbollah and has been meeting with senior US officials, as a new "channel of communications" between the US administration and Hizbollah. Hamadeh met as recently as this month with senior State Department officials who handle Middle East diplomacy, according to a Bush administration official. The official said the talks with Hamadeh dealt with reforms in Lebanon, not with Hizbollah, which is designated a terrorist organization by the United States.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/18/2005 00:00 ||
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Bush administration officials, barred from having direct contact with Hizbollah members who may join a new Lebanese government, have opened talks
I guess it's too much to hope that the administration official in question is Chomps.
The good folks at the Halliburton Weapons of Mass Destruction Division know nothing about this. Officially. I'm told.
TEHERAN - Iran on Sunday accused U.S. and Israeli agents of tricking Iranian nuclear scientists abroad into giving away crucial information, newspapers reported.
The comments by Intelligence Minister Ali Yunesi came days after an Iranian defector identified as Alireza Assar told the Iran Focus Web site Teheran was close to getting an atom bomb. Teheran insists such assertions are lies and that it is making atomic fuel only for nuclear power stations. Washington argues the fuel is for warheads.
âAmerica and Israel are trying to get close to (our scientists) by establishing emotional ties, then they put them into a situation where they are forced to give information,â Yunesi was quoted as saying in the Sharq daily and on agencies.
Bringing back the honey traps, are they?
Yunesi advised Iranian scientists abroad to be suspicious and vigilant, and not to be distracted from the purpose of their visit.
Iran has been rebuked for failing to disclose key parts of its nuclear programme, and many revelations on its technology have come from intelligence sources.
There's an understatement.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/18/2005 00:00 ||
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Not just honey traps Dr. Steve, but lies, blackmail, direct threats, and anything else they can come up with. Worked in the Cold War.
The only ones we let go back are the ones who are now working for us as double agents. I just hope Iranian Intelligence doesn't find out and arrest them, that would ruin our whole secret plan.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/18/2005 11:32 Comments ||
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sssshhhhhh
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/18/2005 12:07 Comments ||
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I love reading the details of secret plans in the press. Makes me feel special and all funny inside.
Abu Musaab Al-Zarqawi, the leading character in the ever rising insurgency against US-led coalition forces in Iraq, has announced he would continue fighting till the complete withdrawal of 'occupation forces' from Iraq.
Zarqawi, topping the US wanted men list, claimed he was an al-Qaeda member and Osama bin Ladin was his leader.
In an audio compact disk (CD), delivered to the US' enemy No. 1 Osama bin Ladin, and received to Pajhwok Afghan News, Zarqavi pledged to continue jihad (holy war) against the US forces and their allies in Iraq.
In the 11-minute and 38 second CD, Zarqawi claimed he had hundreds of volunteers, waiting for a signal from Osama. They are ready to lay their lives for the sacred cause.
"I am your disciple, and am sorry for not contacting you for long," the 24-year-old Jordanian national said, adding: "I am your soldier; pray for my success to kick out the occupational forces from Iraq."
The audio CD, which authenticity is yet to be confirmed, states the US would face a stunning defeat in Iraq and Afghanistan. "US in Iraq will meet the fate of Soviet Union," he hoped.
Terming Iraqi leaders Jalal Talabani and Ali Sistani as evil doers, Zarqavi asked Osama he would continue killing the 'infidels' and their 'puppets' in Iraq and you should do the same in Afghanistan.
He said attacking Iraq and Afghanistan, the US president George W. Bush had announced a war against Islam, which would soon meet its fatal end.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/18/2005 17:20 ||
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Get a room, you guys.
Posted by: Matt ||
07/18/2005 17:48 Comments ||
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"US in Iraq will meet the fate of Soviet Union,"
Not to disparage the courage of the brave Lions of Islam, murderers of children and women that they are, but I have to wonder just how well they would have done in Afghanistan against the Soviets if the US was not supplying them with Stingers and other war goodies. They always seem to forget that part.
#3
Binny and his muja brothers were such great allies!
Rumor has it Binny started his whole anti US rhetoric only after being cast aside after approaching the US for a "jihad against Iraq" in early 1990.
Reportedly he wanted to lead the fight into Iraq against the communist secular baathists, but the Saudis said no dice, he's really after the Saudi throne.
#6
Uh, Al? It's me, Mo-the-courrier calling. Binny's cave is empty. ... Yeah. Just a few torched Korans and some worm food on the wall. ... No. No message. Doesn't look like anyone's been living here for several years. Apart from the worms. ... Uh, what should I do with your CD? give it to a local news agency? OK, boss.
Posted by: Mohammed ||
07/18/2005 19:02 Comments ||
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Amusing Google ad to the right; "Find Muslim soul mates
Finally a place where you can meet fellow Muslim singles."
Does Google think that Al and Binny read RB?
Posted by: Mohammed ||
07/18/2005 19:08 Comments ||
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Zarqawi is 24 years old ? I think that is an error.
#9
Methinks they meant to state that Zman has the emotional maturity of a 4 year old. Mayhaps his mammy threw him under a running camel when he was a wee little sociopath. That would be a root cause but not The Root Cause mind you. With all the talk Zman seems to be a little too ambitious for his britches. Wonder how the AQ mother ship takes to his free ranging and the public rants about the shia as well as the sloppy car bombing MO.
JERUSALEM - One of the suspected bombers in the London attacks visited Israel for one day in 2003, an Israeli official said on Monday, bolstering a news report the British-born Muslim helped plan a Tel Aviv suicide bombing. The government official said Mohammad Sidique Khan, who London police believe blew himself up on an underground train this month, arrived in Israel on Feb. 19, 2003, and left the next day.
The official declined to speculate on reasons for the visit.
Israeli daily Maariv said on Sunday that Khan was suspected of helping plan a pro-Palestinian suicide bombing by two fellow Britons of Pakistani descent on April 30, 2003. Three Israelis were killed in the attack on Mikeâs Place bar in Tel Aviv. But Israeli security sources played down the report, which cited no evidence. âThis is not a concrete finding,â a source said on Sunday. British police named Khan as a member of an Al Qaeda-style cell that killed 55 people in the July 7 bombings in London. Pakistani immigration officials told Reuters on Monday that Khan, 31, and two other cell members visited Karachi last year. One of the suspects, Shehzad Tanweer, visited madrasas, or Muslim religious schools, in Pakistan, the sources said.
Israeli officials are under orders from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon not to link the London attacks and Palestinian militants. After Al Qaedaâs Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, Sharon was quick to draw parallels to Israelâs own struggle against Islamic militants who have spearheaded a Palestinian uprising since 2000. Hamas, an Islamic movement sworn to Israelâs destruction, issued a joint claim of responsibility for Mikeâs Place bar along with al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an armed wing of the dominant Palestinian political faction Fatah. Asaf Hanif, a Briton of Pakistani descent, blew himself up at the bar, but his comrade Omar Sharif fled after apparently failing to detonate his bomb. Sharifâs body was found in the sea a week later. Investigators concluded he had drowned.
Well, having your head held underwater will do that.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/18/2005 15:05 ||
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Now we can blame the Jooooooooooooooooos. And they warned the embassy employees to not take the Underground. And all the Joooooooooos stayed home on 9/11. And...
Algeria's President Abdelaziz Bouteflika has ordered the dissolution of local councils in the restive Kabylie region as part of a peace plan agreed with the Berber ethnic minority earlier this year.
The Berbers, who make up a fifth of the country's 33 million people, largely boycotted local elections in 2002 because of a long-running standoff with the government in Algiers.
The Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before the Arab invasion in the 7th century. In Algeria they complain of discrimination by the Arab majority.
Bouteflika signed a decree late on Sunday to dissolve municipal and local assemblies in the provinces of Tizi Ouzou, Boumerdes, Bejaia and Bouira east of the capital Algiers. Partial local elections will be held later this year.
The government and tribal leaders agreed in January to a wide ranging peace deal, which includes new elections, officially recognising the Berber language and investing in the long neglected northeastern region where most of them live.
The Kabylie-based party Socialists Forces Front (FFS), which will now lose several local seats, threatened protests.
"(It's a project) by the regime to weaken democracy in this region," FFS spokesman Karim Tabou said. "The actions we'll take will be political and peaceful."
The unrest in Kabylie has made it difficult for the authorities to clamp down on hundreds of Islamic rebels based there. Most belong to the al Qaeda-aligned Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC) who stage frequent deadly attacks.
Unrest has been fanned by decades of mistrust between the ethnic minority and the government.
Berbers have often protested through civil disturbances, including election boycotts, strikes and clashes with police.
Bouteflika, re-elected last year, has made the Berber question part of his "national reconciliation" drive to bring stability to the oil producing country weakened by more than a decade of a separate Islamic militant uprising.
The Berbers have campaigned for greater rights since Algeria gained independence from France in 1962.
The last major crisis was sparked when a Kabylie schoolboy died in police custody in 2001. The death led to clashes with police in which 126 protesters died and thousands were injured.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/18/2005 10:31 ||
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PAKISTANI security officials have interrogated six people with contacts with the family of one of the London suicide bombers, clearing them of links to the attacks. Phone calls had been made to some Pakistanis from the house of one of the bombers. Three of the four attackers were British nationals of Pakistani origin. The British Government gave Pakistan the names and telephone numbers of some individuals following the July 7 attacks that killed at least 55 people, a security official said on condition of anonymity.
Security officials said they had interrogated six people about their links to the family of Shahzad Tanweer.
"We have established that these people had business contacts with the family of Tanweer back in London," a senior security official said.
"The six interrogated are all cleared now. The telephone calls were made only for business purposes and they were not linked in any way to the attacks."
The three ethnic Pakistani bombers recently visited Pakistan and investigators are probing whether they met al-Qaeda-linked militant groups.
A senior immigration official in Karachi said Tanweer, 22, and Mohammad Siddique Khan, 30, flew to Karachi last November 19, and left on February 8 this year for Britain.
Hasib Hussain, 18, arrived in Karachi on July 15, 2004 from Riyadh.
The immigration official said there was no record of him leaving Karachi, but he could have flown out via Lahore or Islamabad.
"So far we have not found the links of Tanweer and Khan to Hussain, but it could be possible that they were on different assignments," a Karachi-based intelligence official said.
Foreign ministry spokesman Jalil Abbas Jilani, however, said he had no information the three bombers had travelled to Pakistan.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/18/2005 10:19 ||
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What business? Why three dorks at once having business in Pakiwakiland?
How does a third party have the right to declare somebodies innocence?
July 18, 2005: Normally, guerilla warfare strategy is to start out small, escalating attacks and operations until the insurgents have gained enough popular support and recruited enough fighters that regular military units can be formed that are able to defeat enemy troops on equal terms. In Iraq, this is playing out in reverse. The current âinsurgentsâ started out over two years ago as the Iraqi army and security forces. This crew, led by the Baath Party, had the support of most of the population via an ongoing terror campaign that convinced people that disloyalty was not worth the risk. Right after Saddamâs crowd was driven from power in early 2003, many of Saddamâs core supporters, members of his security forces, and Sunni Arabs in general, continued to fight. But over the last two years, the number of Sunni Arabs supporting the fight declined. Increasingly, the attacks were carried out by foreign Sunni Arabs. Since the guerilla warfare process is rarely tried in reverse, thereâs not a lot of research available on how it will all turn out. It would appear that the Baath Party and al Qaeda terrorists, if they continue to make themselves unpopular by killing Iraqi civilians, will eventually disappear.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/18/2005 09:46 ||
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Not a difficult answer: guerilla warfare has been studied and countermeasures found.
#2
When your army is being systematically removed from the battle and your support base is being eroded its not "guerilla warfare in reverse" its called "losing".
Less than 24 hours after the July 7 terrorist bombings in London, a Palestinian Authority Television sermon called for the extermination of every single Infidel:
"Annihilate the Infidels and the Polytheists! Your [i.e. Allah's] enemies are the enemies of the religion! Allah, disperse their gathering and break up their unity, and turn on them, the evil adversities. Allah, count them and kill them to the last one, and don't leave even one." [Suleiman Al-Satari, PA TV, July 8, 2005. View an excerpt of this sermon online here]
This call for the genocide of all Infidels is particularly striking coming as Britain was still reeling from the London terror attacks - especially since PA religious usage routinely includes Britain in the "Infidel" category.
Such a call does not represent a new policy - or even a shift in policy. While the PA is careful to exclude this hate ideology from the image it presents to the foreign media, to its own people in Arabic the PA has always presented itself as part of a greater Arab-Islamic conflict against the West. This enmity is focused primarily on the US and Britain, who are seen as the dominant forces of Western civilization. This enmity is neither time nor event dependent, but is presented as part of Allah's plan. The ultimate victory is predetermined, Palestinians are taught, and Islam will eventually rule over Britain and America.
The following is a review of some of this religious hate expression towards Britain as reported in the PA media. Rest at link.
Posted by: ed ||
07/18/2005 09:02 ||
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They are ready for their own state!
Wall 'em off and let 'em live or die by themselves.
Gay porn and senseless violence, "straight" from the heroic deeds of the kurdish Lions of Islam. Consistent with earlier reports by iraqi teevee of gay mosque orgies by arab sunnis. I know of a loony (but interesting nonetheless) blogger specialized in linking jihad and homosexuality : this would make him feel so validated!
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By JAMES GLANZ
ERBIL, Iraq, July 15 - Each night at 10 p.m. this week, Kurds in this northern city have gathered in front of their televisions to watch the videotaped confessions of a man known simply as Sheik Zana.
Images from Kurdistan TV
Sheik Zana and his followers are said to have videotaped killings and rapes and also sex scenes among themselves.
A local shopkeeper and mechanical engineer, the sheik says he and his followers beheaded, dismembered, gunned down, blackmailed and raped fellow citizens here in Iraqi Kurdistan for as long as a decade, until he was found out and arrested.
For months, Arabic-language channels have been broadcasting confessions of terrorist suspects that have at once increased ratings and raised suspicions that the statements may have been coerced or staged.
But Sheik Zana's confessions, delivered in Kurdish, stand out because he and his followers had a habit of videotaping not only what appear to be horrific murders and rapes, but also sex among themselves and with the young men whom they were trying to recruit for their cause.
Exactly what that cause may have been is a matter of debate among regular viewers of the programs. Sheik Zana has said that he was closely affiliated with extremist Islamic terrorist groups in Iraq, and that much of what he did was a kind of training program intended to produce ruthless killers.
The programs, distributed to television stations by Kurdish intelligence and security services, are intended to expose terrorist recruiting tactics and punch holes in their religious sales pitch.
Even in a heavily edited format that has cut out the most explicit acts, the images of gay sex are vying with those of beheadings in attracting the attention, and revulsion, of viewers. Nadia Mohamad, 49, a government employee who was watching the program with her husband and children while having dinner at the Sky Cafe in downtown Erbil on Thursday night, said the beheading of a terrified youth on the first program - shown before the sex scenes began appearing - had literally sickened her.
"The first time I saw it, I vomited, because I couldn't control myself," Mrs. Mohamad said.
But then, she said, she was almost equally shocked when the men started stripping and fondling each other before the scene cut away to Sheik Zana and about half a dozen of his underlings giving confessions against blank backdrops. "Sex is something sacred for us," Mrs. Mohamad said. "But when we saw them doing that, it becomes humiliating."
It was hard to find anyone who did not express outrage at the sex scenes when asked about the programs this week. "The homosexual part - that's the worst thing," said Arkan Hamza, 27, who was having lunch with a friend at the Abu Shahab Restaurant on Wednesday. During those parts of the show, he said, members of his family "were very unhappy and surprised and were speaking at the TV screen."
Among the elements of the Arabic-language confessions that some viewers regard as suspicious are stock admissions by the supposed terrorists that they are gay. Because gay sex is haram, or forbidden, in the Koran, some critics have suggested that the speakers have been induced to make those statements to embarrass themselves.
None of the earlier statements came with videotaped sex scenes, but even with the documentary evidence, the Kurdish confessions have also left some viewers skeptical. "I don't believe all this," said Miran, 34, an accountant who asked that only his first name be used. The confession tapes are not continuous, sometimes jumping from one statement to another, he noted, with no time stamps on the images.
Still, Fekri Baroshi, a Kurd from Turkey who is a documentary filmmaker and has watched each installment closely, said there was no technical reason to think that the videotapes were manipulated. He said the only confusing part about Sheik Zana's group was that their generalized mayhem did not seem to achieve anything.
"They have done all these bad things for nothing," Mr. Baroshi said.
Long a relatively peaceful town in the Kurdish north, Erbil has endured two deadly suicide bombings in the past three months, and officials here say that a security sweep has recently netted members of six separate terrorist groups. Masrour Barzani, chief of intelligence for the Kurdistan Democratic Party, which effectively rules this part of Iraqi Kurdistan, said many of those arrested would be giving confessions on the program as part of an effort to discredit the groups.
As violent as the televised segments are, Mr. Barzani said, others that have been captured are "so savage and so disgusting that we cannot even show to the public all that we have collected."
The respected independent Kurdish newspaper Hawlati reported Wednesday that investigators had found compact discs with four hours of video taken by Sheik Zana and his group of more than a dozen followers, including scenes of sex with both men and women. At least one of the women, who may have been kidnapping victims, is sexually mutilated and killed in the videos, the newspaper reported.
The broadcast segments began Monday with a frightened-looking Sheik Zana cowering in a dim, echoing room and beginning his confession. The sheik, whose full name is Zana Nasrat Sheik Abdul Karim, then appeared in a different room looking much more self-assured and with a full beard that he did not have in the first segment. He looked into the camera and said brazenly, "It was very easy to slaughter people."
A mechanical engineer with air-conditioning expertise, the sheik was well known in Erbil for running a sundries market. "We went there sometimes to buy something with our families," said Binar Jelal, 18, who was eating ice cream in the Sky Cafe on Wednesday with two of his friends.
But Sheik Zana had another life, and he now faces scores of charges including at least two dozen counts of murder. In separate confessions on the program, half a dozen of his henchmen fill out the bloody tale, although there is no narrator or audible interrogator and the monologues produce a patchwork storyline at best.
The series has produced little sympathy for the accused. "We hope there is more of these programs," said Mazin, a physician, 35, who asked that only his first name be used as he conversed through the open driver's-side window of his BMW in the parking lot of the Abu Shahab Restaurant.
"Because," Mazin said in English, "people are thirsty to see the black end of these criminals."
#1
I know of a loony (but interesting nonetheless) blogger specialized in linking jihad and homosexuality : this would make him feel so validated!
I'll refuse to speculate that this explains the sudden reversal of a certain high-profile columnist in regards to his support for the war.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 8:39 Comments ||
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#2
Obviously the NYT wouldn't have covered this at all if it was just beheadings and execution by gunfire. The national arts community is one of their biggest outside-NY source of readership.
#4
I certainly hope that the Iraqi government starts doing frequent hangings on TV. That would do much to both raise public confidence and put the fear into these insane mofos.
#5
I had a hard time separating what is a reference to the Kurdish sexual sadists and what is a reference to the confessions of Arab terrorists shown on TV. I can only conclude the NYT is trying to deliberately confuse the two with the purpose of discrediting these televised confessions.
Car bombings in June (133) numbered fewer than in May (151) and April (nearly 170), the two worst months since operations began in Iraq. The rate for July has so far averaged about three per day, which, if continued, would give a monthly rate considerably lower than even June. This despite the recent spike in attacks.
What this suggests is unclear. Security measures may account for some of the reduction in the number of incidents, as well as more effective offensive operations, which are killing bomb makers and uncovering bomb factories. Another possibility is that the insurgents may be holding back car bombs and bombers, in anticipation of a major offensive designed to disrupt the ratification of the new Iraq permanent Constitution. This is supposed to be submitted for ratification some time before mid-October.
The spike in bombings over the last two days (fifteen car bombs), were relative failures, with ten car bombs killing only 25 people. The car bombers have been unable to get near large concentrations of people. The car bombers have also become the main cause of U.S. Army casualties, replacing roadside bombs. But the casualties are down, because the car bomb attacks are less effective than the roadside bombs. The battle of technology and tactics between the bomb makers and American forces is currently being lost by the terrorists. That could change, but the U.S. Department of Defense has been putting a lot of effort into defeating terrorist bombs, especially those detonated on the roadside, and suicide bomb in cars and carried by pedestrians. In Iraq, commanders are increasingly aware that the major weakness of the terrorists is the vulnerability of the âbomber support groupsâ that build the bombs and arrange for the âdelivery.â More effort has gone into nailing these groups, and that is paying off. The constant raids by American marines and Iraqi commandoes north and west of Baghdad are hitting a lot of the bomb workshops and rounding up the bomb builders and people who train the bombers and guide them to their targets. One theory of the use of ten bombs on one day recently, was the desperation of several bomb workshops, fearful of being raided, and deciding to use all their car bombs first.
Iraqi police are getting better at catching car and pedestrian suicide bombers alive. Three of these have been caught in the last week, which provides more intelligence than just analyzing the pieces after the bomb goes off (which is actually very useful, but itâs easier to examine the live bomber and unexploded bomb). This is because two years of training police, both inside Iraq and out (mainly in Jordan, which has some of the most efficient police in the Arab world). Over a hundred thousand Iraqi soldiers and police are now considered âreliable.â This means they can reliably perform at least basic tasks, and wonât desert on mass if under pressure. Another hundred thousand troops and police are still undergoing training. Actually, itâs the shortage of well trained leaders (officers and NCOs) that make the difference, and these take longer to select and train. But meanwhile, several thousand Iraqi police and army commandoes have been executing raids that, previously, only coalition (mainly American and British) troops could be trusted to do. Iraqi military and police intelligence troops, and thousands of local cops are making many Sunni Arab areas unsafe for terrorists. This has long been the case for northern (Kurdish) and southern (Shia Arab) Iraq. But bringing law and order to central Iraq, where the Sunni Arab Iraqis live, has been a battle, the battle, that the media concentrates on. This battle is killing (over the last five months) about 800 Iraqis a month, which is more than ten times the number of Americans getting killed each month. Moreover, most of these deaths are concentrated in an area with only about a third of Iraqis population, giving that population an annual death rate of about 100 per 100,000 population. Itâs still more dangerous to be an American soldier or marine, who are suffering an annual death rate of close to 500 per 100,000 people. That is a lot lower than any other war in American history, while the rate among the Iraqis is about the same as the rate in areas where terrorists, bandits or undisciplined militias in places like Africa or South America are operating. This rate of violence gets the attention of the population affected, and the Iraqi Sunni Arabs are increasingly motivated to try and do something about it. This is the reason for the increase in Sunni Arab police informers, volunteers for police and army jobs, and leaders trying to negotiate peace deals with the government. These activities, seem dimly through the strident media coverage of the explosions, represents the battles that matter the most.
Posted by: ed ||
07/18/2005 07:06 ||
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#1
These activities, seem dimly through the strident media coverage of the explosions, represents the battles that matter the most.
Are you tryin' to tell me the media is not reporting what's important?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/18/2005 7:18 Comments ||
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#2
The propiganda machine media doesn't want to report anything that might be good for president Bush.
#4
I've been of the opinion, since seeing their coverage of that russian school 'hostage taking' that they MSM was active and knowing participants in the war-on-terror for the other side.
Between their extreamly biased covered of the election and the WOT (not to mention their strident attempts to distract the american public (ala that rich, white, blonde, brat Halloway in Aruba)) I am even more convinced.
#5
I've been of the opinion, since seeing their coverage of that russian school 'hostage taking' that they MSM was active and knowing participants in the war-on-terror for the other side.
I got that impression when, within a week of 9/11, they declared it was "unethical" for them to do something as simple as displaying the US flag. Wouldn't want to give the impression they wanted one side to win, now would they?
The clincher came in Iraq, when "reporters" were getting front-row seats to terrorist attacks. It's not just al-Jazeera -- a CBS "stringer" accidentally caught a bullet when he was filming a jihadi victory dance (you know -- AK pumped over head, in rhythm to the all-too-familiar "allahu akbar") and one of our snipers killed the guy with the AK.
Let's not forget Memogate -- manufactured evidence touted by the press, which now shows a complete lack of interest in its source.
As far as I can tell, the press has been an enemy of the US for all my life.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 9:53 Comments ||
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THREE of the London suicide bombers visited Pakistan together in the months before the attacks for terrorist training and ideological instruction.
Senior Pakistani security officials told The Times that Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain â all from Leeds â met known al-Qaeda suspects during their trip. They spent most of their time not in religious schools but in the company of figures from outlawed militant groups. The officials said: âKhan and Tanweer travelled together to Pakistan in November 2004 and stayed through until early 2005. They were joined by Hussain.â
Pakistani police are also searching for 12 Britons whose whereabouts are unknown and whose names have emerged in an urgent review of intelligence after the attacks. Unpicking the Pakistani arm of the British al-Qaeda network is seen as the key to the London investigation and preventing further bomb attacks. The toll from the July 7 bombings now stands at 55 but is expected to rise; 47 of the dead have been formally identified. The Pakistani authorities have arrested more than a dozen suspects over the weekend in connection with the bombings and with possible links to Khan, 30, Tanweer, 22, and Hussain, 18.
Telephone contacts between the bombers and Pakistan are being closely analysed. Investigators in London and Islamabad are in constant communication but the suspected mastermind of the London bombings continues to elude them. The 33-year-old Briton entered Britain at Felixstowe on a ferry from the Netherlands or Belgium a fortnight before the bombings. He flew out from Heathrow hours before his recruits embarked on their deadly missions.
Inquiries into the background of the other bomber, the Jamaican-born Jermaine Lindsay, 19, have taken British police in a different direction. Former schoolfriends of Lindsay, who grew up in Huddersfield, said that he visited Afghanistan four years ago and returned to Britain as a hardline Muslim. Scotland Yard sources said last night that officers were looking closely at Lindsayâs connections in the Luton area. One officer said that Lindsay appeared to have links with criminal activity in the town.
Luton has also been a hotbed of radical Islamist activity for several years, with extremist groups such as al-Muhajiroun having an influence over young Muslims there. Last year several arrests were made in the town in connection with another anti-terrorist operation. Details of that cannot be reported because it is the subject of a forthcoming criminal trial. According to British and American intelligence sources, investigators conducting that operation are believed to have encountered the names of Lindsay and Khan âon the peripheryâ of the inquiry.
Luton was also the setting off point for the four bombers. They were captured on CCTV at about 7.20am. They boarded a train to London, and disembarked at Kingâs Cross. Khan detonated his bomb at Edgware Road, Tanweer at Aldgate and Lindsay on a Piccadilly Line train at Kingâs Cross. The three Tube bombs exploded at 8.50am. Hussain set off his rucksack bomb on a No 30 bus at Tavistock Square almost an hour later.
The bombers left behind a cache of high-explosives and bomb components that could have been used to make at least three or four more devices. Detonators and enough of the acetone peroxide-based explosive to make two bombs were found in Lindsayâs car at Luton, along with a gun and ammunition, a senior anti- terrorist source said. At one of the properties being searched in Leeds, policehave recovered enough explosives to make two devices similar to those used on July 7.
The discovery of the weapons and explosives poses a series of difficult questions for those leading the investigation, who say they are pursuing a wide range of inquiries. Detectives have to consider whether there may be a second bomb team equipped with further explosives and ready to strike again.
They are also examining the possibility that some or all of the London bombers did not know they were taking part in a suicide attack and thought they would be returning to the car. The investigation team is still trying to determine where the bombers spent the night before the attacks.
The inquiry is the countryâs biggest criminal investigation will stretch anti-terrorist and intelligence resources. According to The Sunday Times, MI5 made âa quick assessmentâ of Khan last year but judged that he was not a threat to national security. Police were not involved in that process.
The paper reported a senior government official saying: âMI5 is fair game at the moment. Weâve only got finite resources. You can only concentrate resources on those people who are a direct threat to national security.â
Posted by: ed ||
07/18/2005 06:22 ||
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As the guest of a Christian organization which calls itself âa Think Tank with Legsâ, the Chief Minister of Pakistanâs North-western Province, NWFP, Akram Khan Durrani, has used the legs of the think tank to reach the Pentagon and Washingtonâs thinking elite. And the Opposition religious coalition, Muttahida Majlis Amal (MMA), leader has been preaching the US decision-makers a word or two about the controversial Hasba Act, the recently passed law which, critics say, means Talibanization of Pakistan. âYes I visited the Pentagon and gave them a copy of the Hasba Act,â Durrani told the South Asia Tribune on Saturday night, explaining that it was not at all odd that he was trying to convince Washington that the Act was not meant to Talibanize the Pakistani society.
Chief Minister Durrani has been in Washington with his three sons, one Principal Officer and an Interpreter, all hosted by IGE (Institute for Global Engagement) for 11 days in the US capital and New York. âI had a wonderful trip, my children also saw America and we had good meetings with National Security Council and Pentagon officials. I gave every one a copy of the Hasba Act,â Durrani told the South Asia Tribune. The religious leader from the radically Islamized province has been trying in all his meetings to convince the Americans that his party was not as radical as perceived and they could do business with the Americans on the same terms as any one else.
But as a slip of his tongue in one of the TV interviews, Durrani claimed that after he explained the provisions of the Hasba Act to Pentagon officials, they almost approved it and gave a green light to go ahead. But he quickly stopped making the remark to other media channels and when he was specifically asked by South Asia Tribune whether he was able to convince the Pentagon, he was non-committal and said it was for Pentagon to give their opinion..Durrani was, however, almost sure after his round of meetings with think tanks and NSC/Pentagon officials in Washington that his Government in NWFP would not be dismissed by General Musharraf because of the Hasba Act.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
07/18/2005 01:24 ||
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#1
It is time to admit that Pakistan is nothing but a terrorist state and that Paki residents in America are every bit as dangerous as the Paki animals who carried out the 7-7 terror in the UK. Kill the jihadi elements, and kick the rest out.
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/18/2005 4:36 Comments ||
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#2
Now the piece of Apple junk that I borrowed is triple printing on one click. Annoying!
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/18/2005 4:37 Comments ||
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#3
It's not the browser, Vlad. Check for an EBCAK.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/18/2005 7:27 Comments ||
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#4
Pentagon Officials. *scoff* I'm sure we have a few of those on rantburg. What say YOU Pentagon Officials? Is this true. Speak in the name of "Pentagon Officials". In fact, let's hear from each and every hundred thousand (or however many there are) "Pentagon Officials".
#5
This mook met with the NSC and "Pentagon officials"?
Did they drug him and implant a microchip up his ass? You don't get too many easy shots like that.
Unless he's full of shit, which is my bet.
You know things are getting better when a human rights group issues a communique from the capital of the country in question.
KABUL - Afghanistan must call officials and commanders accused of war crimes to account for their violations of human rights, a rights group said on Sunday weeks ahead of the countryâs landmark parliamentary elections.
In a report which documents war crimes and crimes against humanity in the 1978-2001 period, the Afghanistan Justice Project called on the Afghan government and the international community to take greater steps to bring war criminals to justice. The crimes documented included massacres, disappearances, and summary executions of tens of thousands of civilians, indiscriminate bombing, torture, mass rape and other atrocities.
âIn September 2005, Afghanistan will hold parliamentary elections. The candidates for parliamentary seats include persons against whom there is credible evidence of responsibility for war crimes,â the group said in a 167-page report based on hundreds of interviews.
Funny, they never brought this up when the Taliban were in power.
Afghanistan will hold its first post-Taleban parliamentary elections on September 18, but only 11 candidates, out of a total of 208 who were investigated for their links with illegal armed militias, were struck off the ballot paper.
Abdul Rabb al-Rasul Sayyaf, a radical commander who currently advises Karzai and exercises major political power over the Afghan judiciary, has been implicated over a slew of rights violations but remained on the list.
Under the Afghan constitution, candidates cannot be disqualified unless they have been convicted of a crime in a court of a law but no functioning courts existed to deliver such convictions during the countryâs 23 years of war.
While the Afghanistan Justice Project acknowledged the country still lacked the mechanisms to bring the perpetrators of crimes against humanity to justice, the group called for greater steps to be taken in that direction. âIf Afghanistanâs political transition is to be guided by principles of good governance, including transparency, there is no need to bury the truth,â the report said.
"Be it totally impractical and not within the law, our demands should still be met."
Speaking to reporters in Kabul, Patricia Gossman, director of the project called the failure to question commanders for their rights violations âa missed opportunity.
Patricia, Patricia ... what tribe in Afghanistan names their women Patricia?
Electoral authorities had pushed aside âserious questions over who should be disqualifiedâ from standing for the elections and had appointed many people with records of rights abuses to senior government positions, she said. Gossman said the recent appointment of an ally of Sayyaf, Shir Alam, as governor of the southeastern province of Ghazni was âappauling given the amount of information that is already available about him and well-known to the international community.â
The report comes 10 days after US-based Human Rights Watch said many of those linked to the carnage that erupted from April 1992 to March 1993 in Kabul after the collapse of the Soviet-backed Najibullah government are now defense or interior ministry officials, or advisors to Karzai himself. âFrom the very start the argument was put forward that inclusion of these people was the best way to prevent further bloodshed... but we are three-and-half-years into that what we have seen is that inclusion has not led to greater stability,â Gossman said.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/18/2005 00:00 ||
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Afghanistan must call officials and commanders accused of war crimes to account for their violations of human rights, because the Taliban are getting the shit pounded out of them and this has got to stop. Where is the balance?
KARACHI: A case was lodged at Mithadar Police Station on Sunday against the editor and a reporter of a weekly religious publication, Zarab-e-Islam, Nasir Ali Jahangir and Saleem Qadri, for spreading religious hatred through their publication. The police picked up the editor and the reporter at their office off II Chundrigar Road on Saturday. On Saturday the police raided newspaper stalls in Saddar and picked up several hawkers for selling hate literature and copies of another religious Urdu weekly, Zarb-e-Momin.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/18/2005 00:00 ||
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A World Bank study that found the number of âjihadiâ madrassas in Pakistan much smaller than popularly believed has been questioned by the International Crisis Group, a Brussels-based humanitarian outfit. In an article in the Sunday edition of Washington Post, Samina Ahmed, the Groupâs South Asia project director and Andrew Stroehlein, its media director, claim that âJihadi extremism is still propagated at radical madrassas in Pakistanâ and that âthese religious schools still preach an insidious doctrine that foments the sectarian violence that is increasingly a threat to the stability of Pakistan.â In a reference to the London bombings, they observe, âAnd now, it seems, the hatred these madrassas breed is spilling blood in Western cities as well.â
They maintain that President Pervez Musharrafâs promises âcame to nothingâ as his government never implemented any programme to register the madrassas, follow their financing or control their curricula. Although there are a few âmodel madrassasâ for âWestern media consumption,â the extremist ones account for perhaps as many as 15 percent of the religious schools in Pakistan and are âfree to churn out their radicalised graduates.â They add, âFor those in the West who believed President Pervez Musharrafâs promises to clean up the militant religious schools, it is time to think again.â
Noting that the madrassa bomber Shehzad Tanweer attended a madrassa run by Lashkar-i-Taiba in Lahore for four months, the madrassa and the organisation operate freely despite an official ban on their activity since 2002. After 9/11, the authors argue, Gen Musharraf âclearly felt the pressure to be seen as doing something, and in January 2002 he gave a televised speech promising a series of measures to combat extremism by, among other things, bringing all madrassas into the mainstream.â
According to the authors, âMusharraf pledged increased oversight of the religious schools through formal registration, control of their funding and standardisation of their curricula. The world welcomed those promises, but few then checked back to see if they were ever fulfilled. A conventional wisdom developed, especially in the United States, that Musharraf was doing all he could to help fight terrorism - Musharraf even became something of a media hero, our brave ally in the war on terrorism. The view that all is well with Pakistan has been bolstered most recently by a World Bank-funded report claiming, against other available evidence, that the countryâs madrassa sector is smaller than previously estimated and suggesting that the religious schools pose no serious threat. London on 7/7 shows that analysis was deadly wrong.â
Ahmed and Stroehlein write that Lashkar-i-Taiba is an excellent example of how the Musharraf government has failed to curb extremist religious militants. Though formally banned in 2002, Lashkar-i-Taiba has renamed itself Jamaatud Dawa and continued its activities, including the promotion of jihad in Kashmir, where it has openly claimed responsibility for terrorist attacks, they state. They also point out that Lashkar leader Hafiz Sayeed was temporarily detained, but only under Pakistanâs Maintenance of Public Order legislation, not its much more stringent Anti-Terrorism Act. His detention was short. Prominent figures from this and other formally banned groups such as Sipah-i-Sahaba and Jaish-e-Mohammed appear to enjoy âvirtual immunity from the law,â they add.
The article claims that the fact that Gen Musharraf has not acted against religious extremists and their madrassas is âhardly surprisingâ as he needs the religious parties to âbolster his military dictatorship against the democratic forces seeking to reverse his 1999 coup.â They go on to argue that the âradicals maintain their avenues for propagating their militant ideas, because the chief patrons of jihad, the Jamiat-e-Ulema-i-Islami and the Jamiat-i-Islami political parties, have acquired prominent and powerful roles in Musharrafâs political structure.â While the authors concede that the Musharraf government has captured or killed some 600 Al Qaeda members since 2001, they are of the view that the madrassas are churning out as many radicals as are being apprehended.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/18/2005 00:00 ||
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Coordinates please
Posted by: Captain America ||
07/18/2005 14:37 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
A day after the Senate Armed Services Committee heard testimony that detainees at Guantanamo Bay were being tortured with women's underwear, Committee member 
A Republican congressman said in a radio interview aired by a Florida station that if a multiple-city attack happened in the United States in the next 90 days, as predicted by an Israeli expert, and was found to be the work of extremist Muslims, then "we should take out their holy sites." Congressman Thomas G Tancredo, Republican from Colorado, was being interviewed by AM 540 WFLA radio host Pat Campbell, who asked him what the response of the United States should be were terrorist attacks on US cities to take place and were attributable to extremist Muslims. The Congressman replied, " ... then we could take out their holy sites." Asked if that meant Mecca, Tancredo answered, "Yes."
Bush administration officials, barred from having direct contact with Hizbollah members who may join a new Lebanese government, have opened talks with one of the group's closest allies, administration officials said. A diplomatic source involved in the discussions described the role of Trad Hamadeh, a Lebanese government minister who is closely aligned with Hizbollah and has been meeting with senior US officials, as a new "channel of communications" between the US administration and Hizbollah. Hamadeh met as recently as this month with senior State Department officials who handle Middle East diplomacy, according to a Bush administration official. The official said the talks with Hamadeh dealt with reforms in Lebanon, not with Hizbollah, which is designated a terrorist organization by the United States.
PAKISTANI security officials have interrogated six people with contacts with the family of one of the London suicide bombers, clearing them of links to the attacks. Phone calls had been made to some Pakistanis from the house of one of the bombers. Three of the four attackers were British nationals of Pakistani origin. The British Government gave Pakistan the names and telephone numbers of some individuals following the July 7 attacks that killed at least 55 people, a security official said on condition of anonymity.
KARACHI: A case was lodged at Mithadar Police Station on Sunday against the editor and a reporter of a weekly religious publication, Zarab-e-Islam, Nasir Ali Jahangir and Saleem Qadri, for spreading religious hatred through their publication. The police picked up the editor and the reporter at their office off II Chundrigar Road on Saturday. On Saturday the police raided newspaper stalls in Saddar and picked up several hawkers for selling hate literature and copies of another religious Urdu weekly, Zarb-e-Momin.
They maintain that President Pervez Musharrafâs promises âcame to nothingâ as his government never implemented any programme to register the madrassas, follow their financing or control their curricula. Although there are a few âmodel madrassasâ for âWestern media consumption,â the extremist ones account for perhaps as many as 15 percent of the religious schools in Pakistan and are âfree to churn out their radicalised graduates.â They add, âFor those in the West who believed President Pervez Musharrafâs promises to clean up the militant religious schools, it is time to think again.â
