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UK bomb plot suspect 'arrested in Brisbane'
Today's Headlines
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Page 1: WoT Operations
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Afghanistan
Clashes leave at least 80 militants dead in Afghanistan
KABUL, July 3 (AP) - (Kyodo)— At least 80 suspected Taliban militants were killed in two separate clashes with Afghan-NATO forces, officials said Tuesday.
Fifty militants were killed in the Tora Bora area of Nengarhar Province, eastern Afghanistan, in an airstrike by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization on their compound early Tuesday, said Noor Agha Zowak, a provincial spokesman.

The insurgents have been reportedly reoccupying and opening a new front in Tora Bora, a cave complex which borders Pakistan.

In Kandahar Province in southern Afghanistan, 33 suspected Taliban militants were killed and four others arrested in a joint Afghan-NATO operation in Zhari district late Monday, said Kandahar Gov. Assadullah Khalid.

The operation was carried out after seven Afghan police were killed by a roadside explosion in Zhari on Monday.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 10:32 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Taliban

#1  This morning they are "80 suspected Taliban"; by this afternoon they will have magically transformed into 80 innocent civilians. Watch for it.
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 11:13 Comments || Top||

#2  Nice graphic. Made me laugh. (unfortunately, the grinder we're using just isn't big enough.)
Posted by: Captain Lewis || 07/03/2007 11:26 Comments || Top||

#3  As long as we've been there, I would suspect there is'nt much of Tora Bora where they can still easily hide.
Posted by: plainslow || 07/03/2007 11:45 Comments || Top||

#4  Glenmore, you need to add "mostly wimmin and chilruns"
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 11:48 Comments || Top||

#5  Hey! Thre's the meat grinder I asked for. I like it!
Posted by: M. Murcek || 07/03/2007 13:26 Comments || Top||

#6  Tora Bora is now Afghani for "Come here and die".
Posted by: DarthVader || 07/03/2007 13:45 Comments || Top||


Gunmen kill Afghan education director
KHOST: Unidentified gunmen assassinated a deputy education chief in eastern Afghanistan on Monday, police said, as seven Afghan policemen were killed when a roadside bomb hit their vehicle outside Kandahar.
If it's got something to do with education it has to be un-Islamic. Obviously he had to be killed.
Sayed Usman Hussaini was on his way to work in Khost province when he was shot and killed, police spokesman Wazir Badshah told AFP. Meanwhile, police chief Sayed Agha Saqib said a remote-controlled bomb resulted in the deaths of the seven policemen. Separately, NATO soldiers in a convoy fired and wounded an Afghan on a motorbike in Kandahar City. Local residents said another person had been killed and four wounded in the firing.
This article starring:
police chief Sayed Agha Saqib
police spokesman Wazir Badshah
Sayed Usman Hussaini
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Taliban

#1  Didn't they do the same thing in Iraq recently? Seems like a trend is developing here. No matter where they go, the Islamists end up taking out the education system. Speaks volumes about what they fear.
Posted by: gorb || 07/03/2007 3:00 Comments || Top||

#2  Some days I look at our education system and almost understand the Islamists' actions.
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 6:56 Comments || Top||


Africa Horn
Gunmen slay Somali official, blast kills teen
By Guled Mohamed

MOGADISHU (Rooters) - Somali gunmen shot dead a senior government official in a troubled Mogadishu district and a teenager died when munitions left behind by African Union peacekeepers exploded, officials said on Tuesday.

A roadside bomb also detonated next to an AU convoy in the seaside city that is enduring an upsurge in attacks by insurgents targeting interim administration officials.

The government blames the string of suicide bombings, roadside blasts and assassinations on the remnants of an Islamist movement ousted by its forces and their Ethiopian military allies over the New Year.

Two men armed with pistols gunned down Osman Ali, deputy district commissioner in northern Mogadishu's Islamist stronghold of Horuwa, late on Monday. A district commissioner was also murdered by gunmen last month.

"The men shot him and ran away," Mohamed Omar, the area's deputy police chief, told Reuters.

Elsewhere, a Somali teenager died from wounds sustained on Monday after he and another boy played with unexploded ordnance left behind by A.U. troops in city's south, a doctor said.

Major Jeff Mukasa, acting commander of the Ugandan peacekeepers, said two other boys may have died at the scene, possibly as they scavenged for scrap metal from the destroyed munitions to sell in Mogadishu's sprawling Bakara Market.

In the past few weeks the Ugandans have been detonating tons of weaponry seized in door-to-door raids launched across the capital by Somali and Ethiopian soldiers.

ROADSIDE BOMB

Mogadishu is one of the world's most heavily armed cities, and in the latest insurgent strike targeting the peacekeepers, a roadside bomb blast hit an armored vehicle in an AU convoy returning to base on Tuesday. No one was hurt.

"The Somalis have provoked us many times," Mukasa told Rooters. "But we shall never retaliate, even though we have the guns and everything else necessary to fight, because that is not in our mandate."

The 1,600 Ugandans are the vanguard of an 8,000-strong AU peacekeeping force expected to be deployed to the war-ravaged Horn of African nation to help secure peace and protect President Abdullahi Yusuf's interim government.

Late on Monday, Deputy Defence Minister Salad Ali Jele said paramilitary fighters from northern Somalia's semi-autonomous Puntland region were set to join government forces to help boost security in Mogadishu and elsewhere.

Puntland remains part of Somalia, which plunged into anarchy in 1991 after clan militias deposed former dictator Mohamed Siad Barre. Since then, thousands have died from war and famine.

Jele was speaking in Bosasso, where angry traders and money changers closed shops on Tuesday accusing the local authorities of minting huge amounts of Somali shillings to buy U.S. dollars, devaluing the local currency and disrupting their businesses.

"The dollar has shot to 21,000 shillings from 16,000 a month ago," said money changer Jama Hassan. "We have no profits anymore." Local officials vowed to investigate the complaints.

(Additional reporting by Ibrahim Mohamed and Abdiqani Hassan in Bosasso)
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 10:35 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Islamic Courts

#1  Somalia and Zimbamwe are both having a race that is also a demonstration of the Corialis Effect.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/03/2007 20:47 Comments || Top||


Insurgents hit Mogadishu police station
Gunmen fired rockets at a Mogadishu police station and Ethiopian troops in the latest in a string of attacks on government positions in the lawless Horn of African country, residents said yesterday. There was no immediate confirmation on casualties from either of the two attacks carried out late on Sunday by suspected insurgents.

Ethiopians troops based at a stadium in northern Mogadishu were attacked from two fronts, residents said. "Men carrying rockets and machineguns last night attacked Ethiopian troops," resident Kulmiye Mohamed told Reuters. "They attacked them from two sides with rockets. The Ethiopians responded. It was very heavy fighting."

Senior police officer Ali Nur confirmed a separate attack on the Hodan police station, which has been assaulted before like many other government positions favoured as targets by insurgents. "Such attacks have become a normal thing. Gunmen fired rockets and then opened fire at policemen on duty. They were repulsed after a short but heavy exchange. Our soldiers found an AK-47 rifle they left behind," Nur said. He said no one was injured.

Explosions and deadly duels have engulfed the anarchic city since the interim government, with Ethiopian military help, ousted a militant Islamist movement over the New Year that controlled most of southern Somalia. Security experts say Islamist fighters have regrouped and are carrying out Iraq-style attacks including roadside bombings, suicide blasts and assassinations.
Since they can't meet the Aethiops openly, just like they can't meet our soldiers or the Brits or the Aussies or the Kiwis or the Ghurkas openly ...
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Islamic Courts

#1  Since the Ethiopians were being fired on from two sides, maybe they could just duck and let the Somalis shoot each other? What's the USMC quip about being surrounded?
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 6:58 Comments || Top||

#2  “All right, they’re on our left, they’re on our right, they’re in front of us, they’re behind us…they can’t get away this time.”

“We’re surrounded. That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them”

- Lewis B. 'Chesty' Puller
Posted by: Pappy || 07/03/2007 9:54 Comments || Top||

#3  I heard something interesting the other day, John Wayne had an opportunity to meet "Chesty" he threw his arms around chesty and said "You're the guy I've been playing in all the movies."

Embarrassed Chesty pretty badly.

Moved for Redneck Jim
Posted by: Steve || 07/03/2007 16:36 Comments || Top||


Africa North
Kamel Merimi no longer Algeria's most dangerous terrorist
Security services in Blida wilaya unveiled that Kamel Merimi, the most dangerous terrorist activating in the mountainous region between Blida and Boumerdés wilayas and among the oldest elements in the terrorist organization, was among the eliminated terrorists in Djebabra region.
To be the Boss of the wilaya is every Djebabran kidling's dream...
Merimi was in charge of the recruitment of new terrorists in al-Qaeda Organization in the Islamic Maghreb. Merimi has been killed during the bombings and clashes taking place earlier last week between army units and terrorists in Djebabra region.

The sources further unveiled that Merimi break into a health center in Hamadi municipality located in Boumerdés, a few kilometers off Djebabra, where a considerable quantity of medicines has been held up, especially those healing wounds. This fact has been confirmed, after security services found in al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb that medicines during the bombings, which have been followed by violent clashes that resulted in the killing of Merimi together with other 11 terrorists.
This article starring:
KAMEL MERIMIal-Qaeda Organization in the Islamic Maghreb
al-Qaeda Organization in the Islamic Maghreb
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in North Africa

#1  This is why there's no crisis in the Islamist Social Security System.
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 7:00 Comments || Top||

#2  The ISSS(Islamists Social Security System) is reported to have the best eternal benefits around. However, we haven't been able to get a consumer's satisfaction rating, because Kamel Mermi and friends have not returned our phone calls.
Posted by: Angusoth Jones3773 || 07/03/2007 11:27 Comments || Top||

#3  I heard something interesting the other day, John Wayne had an opportunity to meet "Chesty" he threw his arms around chesty and said "You're the guy I've been playing in all the movies."

Embarrassed Chesty pretty badly.
Posted by: Redneck Jim || 07/03/2007 16:06 Comments || Top||

#4  Ummm, orry, the above post shoul be on the above article

Moderators, move it please
Posted by: Redneck Jim || 07/03/2007 16:25 Comments || Top||


Africa Subsaharan
African nations seek IDF rescue course
A growing number of African nations are expressing interest in sending soldiers for search-and-rescue training by the IDF's Home Front Command, Col. Shalom Ben-Arieh, commander of the National Search and Rescue and Civil Defense School, has told The Jerusalem Post.

Two weeks ago, Ben-Arieh completed teaching 24 Kenyan military officers search-and-rescue techniques at the Home Front Command's training facility at the Tzrifin Base near Ramle. The officers who participated in the intensive three-week course, held in English, were trained as instructors and are supposed to set up search-and-rescue teams in Kenya.

On Saturday, Ben-Arieh led a rescue and medical team to Cyprus to assist in extinguishing major fires.

Israel, which is a world leader in the development and implementation of search-and-rescue techniques, sent Home Front Command soldiers to Kenya three times in the last decade, most recently in January 2006 after a five-story building collapsed in Nairobi. At the time, Kenyan President Mwai Kibaki asked OC Home Front Command Maj.-Gen. Yitzhak Gershon to assist his country in establishing its own search-and-rescue team.

After a year of planning, which included translating all of the Home Front Command's search-and-rescue training booklets from Hebrew to English, Ben-Arieh and his team opened Israel's first English-language search-and-rescue course. After the Kenyans begin setting up their rescue teams, Ben-Arieh and his men will travel to Kenya to assist in training their soldiers.

"We at the Home Front Command try to cooperate with anyone in the world when it comes to saving lives," Ben-Arieh said. "We have a reputation and the knowledge, and we are not shy about sharing this with the rest of the world."
Some contribute. Others can only seethe and try to destroy.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  Israel has had a good relationship with Kenya for a long time. Entebbe rescue, and all that.
Posted by: Liberalhawk || 07/03/2007 10:36 Comments || Top||

#2  I'd like to train w/the Israelis. They don't b.s. around. I did not know their S&R prestige was so profound. Interesting. Maybe if they work w/some african mil's it would be some good bridge building - who knows.
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 19:52 Comments || Top||

#3  Unfortunately, all the good work that the Israelis have done in Africa is for naught : all it takes is an Idi Amin to ruin everything, and Africa is replete with his kind. The Israelis did all sorts of humanitarian aid programs in Africa in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s - all it got them were Israelis with tropical diseases, and terrorist operations permitted and/or actively supported by the African countries. Entebbe is a prime example of that : the Israelis had built the freaking airport as a friendship gift and then Idi Amin let the highjackers takeover the airport, WITH Ugandan Army units as their protectors.
Most of Africa is a black hole, sucking down to perdition everything including light.
Posted by: Shieldwolf || 07/03/2007 20:55 Comments || Top||

#4  Shieldwolf, I notice something wierd like that in the U.S. as well. American Jews seem to really be supporters of black Americans yet it seems to me that the black community as a whole is always suspicious of the jewish community in our country. Just my observation.
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 22:20 Comments || Top||

#5  BH6, its been my observation that the black community is suspicious of everybody. Probably with good reason. As for the Jews, its just about a given that anybody they are nice to us going to crap on them the first chance they get.

There's something magic about that faith. If I was getting dumped on by everybody, everywhere in the world, all the time throughout all history, I would be trying to kill everything that lives. Yet somehow, they just keep living life they way it should. I don't know man, maybe there's something to being Gods chosen people.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 22:33 Comments || Top||

#6  We don't look on it as God having chosen us, Mike N, but us happening to be the first to choose God. No special privileges for that, nor should there be.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/03/2007 22:50 Comments || Top||

#7  Well, whatever. I just know their capacity for tolerance is superhuman compared to other religions.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 22:56 Comments || Top||


Britain
Brown: Don't Say Terrorists Are Muslims
Yep, I have high hopes for this guy...
Gordon Brown has banned ministers from using the word “Muslim” in ­connection with the ­terrorism crisis. The Prime Minister has also instructed his team – including new Home Secretary Jacqui Smith – that the phrase “war on ­terror” is to be dropped.
Now to be known as "The Great Pie Fight Against Somebody. Someplace."
The shake-up is part of a fresh attempt to improve community relations and avoid offending Muslims, adopting a more “consensual” tone than existed under Tony Blair.
Nope. Wouldn't wanna do that. they might try to...blow us up or something...
However, the change provoked claims last night that ministers are indulging in yet more political correctness.
Ya think?
The sudden shift in tone emerged in comments by Mr Brown and Ms Smith in the wake of the failed attacks in London and Glasgow. Mr Brown’s spokesman acknowledged yesterday that ministers had been given specific guidelines to avoid inflammatory language. "There is clearly a need to strike a consensual tone in relation to all communities across the UK,” the spokesman said. “It is important that the country remains united.” He confirmed that the phrase “war on terror” – strongly associated with Mr Blair and US President George Bush – has been dropped.
So whatta ya gonna call it? I can hardly wait. Maybe you could have a contest?
Officials insist that no direct links with Muslim extremists have been publicly confirmed by police investigating the latest attempted terror attacks. Mr Brown himself did not refer to Muslims or Islam once in a BBC TV interview on Sunday.
Ms Smith also avoided any such reference in her statement to MPs yesterday.
Pay no attention to that flaming...Asian guy screaming Allah Akbar that just fell out of that exploding jeep at the airport. He could be Amish for all you know...
She said: “Let us be clear – terrorists are criminals, whose victims come from all walks of life, communities and religions. Terrorists attack the values shared by all law-abiding citizens. As a Government, as communities, as individuals, we need to ensure that the message of the terrorists is rejected.”
You tell 'em, Honey! That'll stop 'em!! And if it doesn't, maybe you can drop some oragami on them...
Tory backbencher Philip Davies said: “I don’t know what purpose is served by this. I don’t think we need pussyfoot around when talking about ­terrorism.”
Hey, knock it off! Ya wanna hurt their feelings!
But former Tory homeland security spokesman Patrick Mercer said: “This is quite a smart idea. We know that the vast majority of Muslims are not involved in terrorism and we have to accept there are sensitivities about these matters.”
So from now on, it's "misguided asians with car trouble"...
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/03/2007 16:56 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Global Jihad

#1  I thought that someone may have pulled the brake. No, that was just wheels of the train screeching, when it was gaining on speed towards the wreck.

Boundless sea of idiocy.
Posted by: twobyfour || 07/03/2007 17:34 Comments || Top||

#2  The Brits overdrew the karma account in the 20th Century with Churchill and Mrs. Thatcher. Boneheads like Brown, Heath, Callaghan and Wilson are the payback.
Posted by: Mac || 07/03/2007 17:35 Comments || Top||

#3  Dear Brown(nose),

Muslim muhz-lim, moo,s-,moo,z-
Pronunciation Key - [muhz-lim, mooz-, moos-] Pronunciation Key - adjective, noun, plural -lims, -lim.
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to the religion, law, or civilization of Islam.
–noun
2. an adherent of Islam.


Islam [is-lahm, iz-, is-luhm, iz-] Pronunciation Key
- noun
1. the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
2. the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

Jihad
ji·had
–noun
1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2. Islam A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.

The above can be found in www.dictionary.com. Which does not meet your definition Mr Brown(nose).

toady (tô'dç)
- noun
1. a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage [syn: sycophant]

- verb
1. try to gain favor by cringing or flattering; "He is always kowtowing to his boss"
Posted by: Helmuth, Speaking for Chusoling1715 || 07/03/2007 17:39 Comments || Top||

#4  Interesting that as France and Germany turn right, Britain drifts left. As this article makes clear, the Anglo-American relationship is not likely to warm for some time. And the Tories have left themselves little room to attack the anti-American, anti-war policies of Labour as they have opposed (Bush and) Blair's War for quite some time, apparently seeing it as their responsibility as the opposition. Yet I doubt these policies represent the will of the British people any more than the Amnesty deal reflected the will of the American. So in the next general election will it be left to the BNP or the UKIP to pick up the load in the war on Islamism terror?
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/03/2007 17:42 Comments || Top||

#5  Did he sat anything about Muslims avoiding offending Brits by, oh, I don't know, NOT BLOWING THEM UP!
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 17:50 Comments || Top||

#6  Lets just say The only Good Muslim is a Dead Muslim It worked ok for Indians
Posted by: Michael || 07/03/2007 17:55 Comments || Top||

#7  All employees of the United Kingdom's National Health Service...

The eight people held Tuesday in the failed car bombing plot include one doctor from Iraq and two from India. There is a physician from Lebanon and a Jordanian doctor and his medical assistant wife. Another doctor and a medical student are thought to be from the Middle East.

All employees of the United Kingdom's National Health Service, some worked together as colleagues at hospitals in England and Scotland, and experts and officials say the evidence points to the plot being hatched after they met in Britain, rather than overseas.
Posted by: Helmuth, Speaking for Chusoling1715 || 07/03/2007 18:10 Comments || Top||

#8  That only works if you wrap'em in pig skin. Otherwise they come back to life.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 18:10 Comments || Top||

#9  OK, it's slightly less specific, but "Devil Worshippers" will work.
Posted by: Gary and the Samoyeds || 07/03/2007 18:41 Comments || Top||

#10  All employees of the United Kingdom's National Health Service...

Is the NHS a single payer system? Just askin'.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/03/2007 19:02 Comments || Top||

#11  Ohfergawdsake. Brown failed the first test
Posted by: Frank G || 07/03/2007 19:05 Comments || Top||

#12  He more than failed the test - he's bombed the entire course and is flunking out of his major.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Or more likely -- scared sh*tless now that he's seen the intel info and realizes how incredibly vulnerable the UK is, thanks to its own policies and attitudes for the last 20 years. It's of a piece with saying that individuals who are mugged should restrict themselves to curling in a ball on the ground and hoping they don't get kicked in the head.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 19:34 Comments || Top||

#13  This is very worrying because there are rumours that Brown is a little bit flaky and hides/endlessly procrastinates from difficult decisions.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles || 07/03/2007 19:44 Comments || Top||

#14  YJMTSU I think is appropriate term for this.

"the phrase “war on ­terror” is to be dropped"

Cool, so it's gonna be "war on fundamental islam" like it's supposed to be?

JK, does this guy like brew his own Kool Aid?

Just think, Churchill was only 62 yrs ago. If old Winston ran a cell block this guy wouldn't even make a good b*tch. I'm sorry my Brit brethren, no offense meant to you fellas. Heck, with our luck the idiots in my country will elect Billary or that nancy John Edwards, then we can have no balls in either of our offices.
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 20:00 Comments || Top||

#15  damn, I left the C out.
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 20:01 Comments || Top||

#16  In #12, I should have written thanks at least in good part to its own policies and attitudes. British policies didn't create the jihadis, although it often seems as if they are designed to facilitate it.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 20:08 Comments || Top||

#17  If Brown is not careful, the phrase "Great Britain" will be dropped from useage except in an historical sense and it will be used only in the past tense. The phrase "Great Britain" will be replaced by something else--probably something muslim. There I said muslim.
Brown you dipwad.
Posted by: JohnQC || 07/03/2007 20:13 Comments || Top||

#18  He is correct of course. The terrorists are all Buddhist.
Posted by: The Twelfth Imam || 07/03/2007 20:40 Comments || Top||

#19  What this article needs is a picture of an ostrich with its head buried in the sand.
Posted by: Ol Dirty American || 07/03/2007 20:42 Comments || Top||

#20  In order to accomplish Mr Brown's intent we will all need special BOSE headphones to play soothing music that drowns out the queer Asian folk whenever they yell "Infidel," "Inshallah" and "Jihad," at us. Until we get these earphones I intend to put a finger in each ear and repeatedly say in a tolerant monotone "I'm not listening. I'm not listening," whenever a mass transit vehical I am riding on is hijacked.

There that should do it. The war is over. We now have peace.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/03/2007 20:42 Comments || Top||

#21  How about "War on Global Sharia"?

I don't see how any non-muslim (in their right mind) could defend sharia.
Posted by: Gladys || 07/03/2007 21:51 Comments || Top||

#22  If old Winston ran a cell block this guy wouldn't even make a good b*tch.

I haven't laughed that hard in months. Good one, BH6.
Posted by: Matt || 07/03/2007 22:00 Comments || Top||

#23  GOOD LUCK UK - YA GONNA NEED IT
Posted by: Whomotch Platypus2875 || 07/03/2007 22:06 Comments || Top||

#24  Tonight's show comes live from the tiny village of Rabid in Buckinghamshire, and our first question tonight is from a Mrs Elizabeth Scrint who says she is going on a Mediterranean cruise next week and can't find anything wrong with the Syrians. Well, Mrs Scrint, apart from being totally unprincipled left-wing troublemakers, the Syrians are also born skivers, they're dirty, smelly and untrustworthy, and, of course, they're friends of the awful gippos. (applause) There you are, Mrs Scrint, I hope that answers some of your problems - have a nice trip. (more applause) Well now, the result of last week's competition when we asked you to find a derogatory term for the Muslims. Well, the response was enormous and we took quite a long time sorting out the winners. There were some very clever entries. Mrs Hatred of Leicester Said 'let's not call them anything, let's just ignore them' ... (applause starts vigorously, but he holds his hands up for silence) ... and a Mr St John of Huntingdon said he couldn't think of anything more derogatory than Muslims. (cheers and applause; a girl in showgirl costume comes on and holds up placards through next bit) But in the end we settled on three choices: number three ... the Moose Limbs (placard 'The Moose Limbs'), sent in by Mrs Vicious of Hastings... very nice; number two..... the Slammers (placard) ... from Mrs Childmolester of Worthing; but the winner was undoubtedly from Mrs No-Supper-For-You from Norwood in Lancashire... Miserable Fat Islamic Bastards. (placard; roar of applause) Very good - thank you, Carol. (Carol exits) But as you know on this programme we're not just prejudiced against race or colour, we're also prejudiced against - yes, you've guessed, stinking Islamic clerics! (applause) So before the streets start emptying in Chelsea tonight, Let's go straight over to our popular prejudiced panel game and invite you once again to - Shoot The Imam!
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 23:08 Comments || Top||

#25  *giggle*
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/03/2007 23:40 Comments || Top||

#26  I recall that during the Carter admin his economic adviser said to not call inflation, inflation, but to call it a banana instead.

So do me all start calling muslims bananas now?

Kind of fits actually.
Posted by: Ulavise Scourge of the Antelope7037 || 07/03/2007 23:45 Comments || Top||

#27  Remember if your bus driver yells Allah Akbar and steers into oncoming traffic, turn up your IPOD. Gordo says there is no Jihad.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/03/2007 23:52 Comments || Top||


UK Terror Plot Investigation - News Roundup - July 3
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 09:21 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Britain

#1  Big, big plans and not one single success? (I count the Glasgow airport attack as a failure -- although some five or six civilians were hurt, only one of the jihadis will die and the big explosion was a dud). Good find, cher anonymous5089.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/03/2007 9:42 Comments || Top||

#2  Never send a doctor to do an engineer's job.
Posted by: Excalibur || 07/03/2007 10:15 Comments || Top||

#3  :) Excal, you meant mechanical engineer?
Mechanical engineers build weapons.
Civil engineers build targets.
Posted by: GK || 07/03/2007 11:31 Comments || Top||

#4  From CBS via Pat Dollard:

CBS News confirms that in 2004 the current head of al Qaeda in Iraq was instructed by then-head Abu Musab al-Zaraqawi to recruit these people to move to the West and easily integrate until time came to strike.
Posted by: Sherry || 07/03/2007 14:27 Comments || Top||

#5  Never send a doctor to do an engineer's job.

Next time they may send an engineer. He just can't be referred to as a muslim engineer according to Brown. It wouldn't be PC.
Posted by: JohnQC || 07/03/2007 20:40 Comments || Top||


Terror plot hatched in British hospitals
A suspected secret cell of foreign militants, believed to be linked to al-Qa'ida and using British hospitals as cover, are being questioned over the terrorist attacks in London and Glasgow.
Doctors, why do they hate us?
Five of the eight people under arrest last night are said to be doctors. Another of those detained is the wife of one of the doctors, who is a medical assistant working for the NHS. The home of a sixth doctor is said to have been searched by police. Late last night an Australian television network reported that a suspect wanted in connection with the attacks had been arrested in Brisbane.
"Qantas, don't fail me now!"
Attention has been focused on a group of nationals from the Middle East, who had not previously attracted the interest of security agencies. Until now, cases of Islamist terrorism have involved mainly Muslims who were born and brought up in Britain.
Mostly Paks, in fact...
The alleged arrival of teams from abroad to carry out attacks, their identities unknown to the domestic law agencies, adds another dimension to the terrorist threat being faced in the United Kingdom.

Following the link between the attacks in London and Glasgow, control of the investigation was transferred to Scotland Yard. With the security alert staying at the highest possible level and warnings that another attack may be "imminent", police carried out 19 raids across the country, arresting nationals from Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Among those arrested was Mohammed Jamil Abdelqader Asha, a 26-year-old neurologist who was born in Saudi Arabia but is of Palestinian origin and was travelling on a Jordanian passport. He and his 27-year-old wife, a medical assistant, were arrested on the M6 in Cheshire, in connection with the attempted bombings in London.

Also under arrest was Bilal Talal Abdul Samad Abdulla, an Iraqi from Baghdad who arrived in the UK in April 2006. He is said to have been one of the two men in the Cherokee Jeep in the Glasgow airport attack, and is suffering from third-degree burns. His companion, under arrest, is also from Iraq, while two other men, aged 25 and 28, arrested in Paisley yesterday, were said to be doctors from Saudi Arabia.
You just knew they'd turn up, now didn't you?
Actually, I expected them to be from Peshawar or maybe even Chitral. Multan at least.
Police carried out a controlled explosion on a blue Vauxhall car yesterday at Royal Alexandra Hospital, in Paisley, near Glasgow, where Dr Abdulla worked and where he is being treated for his injuries.
Pray for sepsis. And a shortage of pain medication.
"So sorry, old chap, the plane with your Oxycontin will be cleared for landing in a day or three."
Third-degree burns over 90% of the body is about as bad as being gut-shot.
It was the second such detonation at the hospital, following a white BMW on Sunday. Strathclyde Police said the two vehicles were "connected" with the airport attack.

Dr Asha, 26, has been in Britain since 2005 and had worked at the North Staffordshire Hospital, where his office was being searched yesterday following a raid at his home at Sunningdale Grove in Newcastle-under-Lyme. There were police searches in the same town two miles from Dr Asha's home at Priam Close, Bradwell, which, according to neighbours, was rented by another doctor and his wife.

Further searches were carried out in Liverpool at the home of a man who had been arrested after being disabled with a taser gun after police surrounded his car.
Further searches were carried out in Liverpool at the home of a man who had been arrested after being disabled with a taser gun after police surrounded his car. According to neighbours, the man was a doctor from India who worked at Halton Hospital in Cheshire. A colleague told the newspaper, Muslim News, that the man may have been detained because he was using the mobile telephone and internet account of another man who has recently left Britain.
Perhaps the suspect arrested in Australia?
Last night Dr Asha's father, Jamil Asha, asked King Abdullah of Jordan to intercede on behalf of his son. He vehemently stressed to journalists in Amman that his son was not involved in any terrorist activity. "All he wanted to do was get on with his life. He prays like any good Muslim but was certainly not a fanatic," said Mr Asha. "He was planning to visit us on 12 July. He called me three days ago to check the body sizes of his six brothers and two sisters. My son wanted to buy them gifts from Britain before his departure."
Gosh, those bananas are really tough.
Body bags for his brothers and burkas for his sisters ...
Dr Asha's brother, Ahmed, said he was surprised by news of his arrest. "The first news we heard of this was broadcast by an Arabic satellite channel. It's nonsense because he has no terror connections."

Dr Abdulla, who had qualified in Baghdad in 2004, a year after the US-led invasion, has been in Britain since August 2006. He is said to have lived in Jordan before arriving in the UK.

The failed car bomb attacks in London early on Friday morning involved two Mercedes saloons. They had been packed with gas cylinders, petrol and nails with two mobile telephones acting as detonators. The bombers had, according to a security source, tried to detonate the car outside Tiger Tiger bar with four phone calls. Two calls had been made to the car in Cockspur Street, which was later towed away to a car pound. The bombs failed because of a technical mistake.

Detectives believe that a Mercedes involved in the failed attacks in London came from Scotland. They have tracked part of the car's route south last week using number-plate recognition technology mounted in cameras along the M6. The raids and arrests across the country which followed are said to have resulted mainly from clues gathered from the two cars, including calls made to the mobile telephones.
This article starring:
BILAL TALAL ABDUL SAMAD ABDULLAal-Qaeda in Britain
Dr Asha's father, Jamil Asha
MOHAMED JAMIL ABDELQADER ASHAal-Qaeda in Britain
Posted by: Steve || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Britain

#1  "He called me three days ago to check the body sizes of his six brothers and two sisters"

Need to make sure the explosive vest is a good fit!!
"The bombs failed because of a technical mistake."

Medical malpractice? Let's get the "doc"from Aus fix the phone detonators and we'll call in a prescription refill to him as he rides the car down into the deepest, darkest black hole in the middel of the Outback! May the maggots pick over what's left of his bones!!


Posted by: GI_Wxman || 07/03/2007 2:41 Comments || Top||

#2  Saudis and Jordanians are no friends of the West.I used to think it was mainly Pakistan with Saudi funding but Islamism is widespread throughout the MME.They are brought up to hate the West from birth so their shite governments dont take any blame for scores of problems and unemployment.Victimhood is rife in the MME.How were these people DOCTORS oppressed????

Arent Doctors taught to save lives not take lives???
Posted by: Paul || 07/03/2007 4:59 Comments || Top||

#3  Doctors running this plot? Explains why they chose Mercedes for their bomb cars.

And, not entirely sarcastically, this is a natural development of NHS.
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 7:03 Comments || Top||

#4  Most of the arrests are investigative detentions. Probable cause would be based on phone records.
Posted by: McZoid || 07/03/2007 9:14 Comments || Top||

#5  So will this be a part of "Sicko"...
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/03/2007 9:24 Comments || Top||

#6  The alleged arrival of teams from abroad to carry out attacks, their identities unknown to the domestic law agencies, adds another dimension to the terrorist threat being faced in the United Kingdom.

So stop them arriving from Muslim countries and focus resources on those who were born here. Oh no, that's too logical, scrub that...
Posted by: Spolumble Munster2498 || 07/03/2007 9:29 Comments || Top||

#7  If this was indeed an AQ plot and not spontaneous jihad syndrome, this is a very expense crew to have got such a pathetic result. Very little bang for the buck.

Also, kill their families.
Posted by: Excalibur || 07/03/2007 10:19 Comments || Top||

#8  Third-degree burns over 90% of the body is about as bad as being gut-shot.

UUmmm, I was told that "Third Degree Burns" kill the nerves, no pain.
Posted by: Redneck Jim || 07/03/2007 10:50 Comments || Top||

#9  I don't know about third degree, but blistering, skin-grafting degree, whatever it is, sure doesn't kill the pain! He can consider it a foretaste of his eternity.
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 11:09 Comments || Top||

#10  yep - 72 virgins with saline and lemon-freshy Sea-wash™ and steel wool debraders forever and ever. Congratulations, tool!
Posted by: Frank G || 07/03/2007 19:12 Comments || Top||

#11  sometime in the last 20 years or so, the degree rating of burns was changed... when i was in school there were 3 degrees to burns... mild with redness, moderate with blistering, and serious with charring (1st,2nd,3rd). later in order to impress the idea that sun and UV was bad for you the powers that decide stuff made sunburn a 1st degree burn and anything more serious got notched up one level... so today when you hear '3rd degree burn' you need to translate to the old fashioned '2nd degree burn' and then think blisters, sluffing, and lots of agony.
Posted by: Abu do you love || 07/03/2007 21:15 Comments || Top||


UK bomb plot suspect 'arrested in Brisbane'
British police have confirmed an eighth man has been detained but would not say where the man was arrested. But the Seven Network this morning reported the man was arrested in Brisbane.
When they say "the long arm of the law", they ain't kidding
Queensland Police Minister Judy Spence and Police Commissioner Bob Atkinson were being briefed on the arrest, Seven reported. British police said in a statement the man was arrested at an undisclosed location in connection with the investigation into the incidents in London and Glasgow. "He remains in custody," British police said.

The BBC reported the man was arrested overseas, but did not say in which country.
Bet he's got one of those real Aussie names, like Ahmed or Mohammad
Among the eight detained are two doctors, with police sources naming one as Bilal Abdulla, trained and qualified in Iraq in 2004, and the other, Mohammed Asha, qualified in Jordan the same year. Asha's wife is among the suspects being held, police said. Those arrested are linked to a plot to detonate two car bombs loaded with fuel, gas canisters and nails in London and an attack on Glasgow airport in Scotland over the weekend using a fuel-laden Jeep Cherokee.
Three of those detained had links to a hospital at Paisley, a town just outside Glasgow, the BBC reported.

Britain has seen a marked increase in terrorism-related attacks since the September 11 strikes on the United States and since it joined US forces in invading Iraq in 2003. However, previous assaults, including an attack on London's transport system in July 2005 which killed 52 people, have tended to involve radicalised, British-born Muslims, not educated attackers from overseas, security experts say.
Posted by: Steve || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [2 views] Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Britain

#1  "Britain has seen a marked increase in terrorism-related attacks since the September 11 strikes on the United States and since it joined US forces in invading Iraq in 2003 . . . "

Boy, where's Tony and his "hardline" approach when ya' need it? Wake up UK (Australia excepted).


Posted by: ex-lib || 07/03/2007 14:53 Comments || Top||


Five Doctors Held Over Attacks (so far)
Five doctors are now being held in connection with the recent attempted terror attacks - one is an Iraqi doctor who trained in Baghdad. Sky sources named him as Iraqi Bilal Abdulla. He was left relatively unscathed in an attack on Glasgow airport, in which two men drove a flaming jeep into the airport terminal. Two doctors were arrested in Paisley, Glasgow, another in Liverpool and one on the M6 on Saturday night.

Abdulla was pictured being led away from the explosion by police and worked at the Royal Alexandra Hospital near Glasgow. The other man detained at Glasgow airport had severe burns and remains in a critical condition at the Royal Alexandra.
Reports are burns over 90% of his body, not expected to live.
I'll drop off some nice salt scrub the docs can use for his debridement...it's got lemon in it so he'll smell April fresh.
Police used two controlled explosions to detonate two suspect cars outside the hospital.
The second detonation is a new piece of info, IIRC
Eight people are now being held by police in connection with the attempted bombing in Scotland and two car bombs found in London's West End. They were arrested at locations throughout the UK.

Police have been given another five days to question the two men arrested at Glasgow airport and until Saturday to quiz three people held at Paddington Green police station in west London.

One of those, Dr Mohammed Asha, 26, was arrested on the M6 on Saturday night. The Jordanian was detained with a woman of 27 dressed in traditional Muslim dress, believed to be his wife, on the M6 near Sandbach in Cheshire. He gained his medical qualifications in Jordan in 2004 and came to Britain the following year. He was seen wearing a stethoscope at his rented home in the village of Houston, near Glasgow Airport, a letting agent said.
Reports are his family is Palestinian.
That's the first thing I thought of when it was reported he was 'Jordanian'.
His father appeared on Jordanian TV on Monday claiming his son was innocent.
"He's a good boy."
Prayed regularly, rolled his eyes, made faces, beat his sisters, had gun sex, yep, a good boy through and through ...
Sources told Sky News that a third man, aged 26, arrested in Liverpool, was also a doctor. He was reported to have worked at Halton Hospital in Cheshire.

The UK remains on a "critical" state of terror alert - the highest possible - after police linked the three failed bombings. Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has refused to comment on reports the suspects were members of a foreign terror cell.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Britain

#1  I'll drop off some nice salt scrub the docs can use for his debridement...it's got lemon in it so he'll smell April fresh.

LOL!
(Note to self - never, ever get on Sea's bad side.)
Posted by: PBMcL || 07/03/2007 0:34 Comments || Top||

#2  Islamic Doctors. Never thought I would hear of one of those. 72 Virgins waiting, who needs a doctor.
Posted by: Helmuth, Speaking for Chusoling1715 || 07/03/2007 1:08 Comments || Top||

#3  Doctors hell bent on killing people, taqiyya just doesn't get any better.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 2:43 Comments || Top||

#4  People tend to forget that both Mengele and Che Guevara were trained as doctors as well. Two psychotic butchers, with proper educations.
Posted by: Shieldwolf || 07/03/2007 3:01 Comments || Top||

#5  Reports are burns over 90% of his body, not expected to live.

#1) I'll drop off some nice salt scrub the docs can use for his debridement...it's got lemon in it so he'll smell April fresh.
/ROFLMAO

hummm,
so solly pyro boy, we just can't administer any Morphine Sulfate for your boo-boo pain thingy today..
'cause it'll depress ur-wittle-central-nervosystem thing
Posted by: RD || 07/03/2007 3:04 Comments || Top||

#6  Lucky thing they wanted boom, instead of just using their medical positions to kill some infidels.
Posted by: gromgoru || 07/03/2007 5:27 Comments || Top||

#7  This has given new meaning to the stalin orchestrated, "the Doctor's Plot." Russia's Georgian man of steel, limp-wristed josip, had a run in with his Tbilisi tovarish that prevented this plot from unfolding into a full-fledged Vyshinsky-type showtrial, followed by a genocidal elimination of Soviet jewry.

Perhaps the brits could improve on the original and use this plot as a way to deport the worthless trash congregating around the Finsbury mosque. This death cult needs to be preferrably shot, but at least deported.

Posted by: Omoluling McCoy4091 || 07/03/2007 9:01 Comments || Top||

#8  One of the articles: "up to 12 members of Al Qaeda were sent to work" in the UK's National Health Service. Probably a lot more.
Posted by: Pearl Greaper5013 || 07/03/2007 9:48 Comments || Top||

#9  Think Michael Moore will update his new movie regarding the British healthcare system? For all of the issues in the US healthcare system you never hear of American doctors trying to blow up people.
Posted by: rjschwarz || 07/03/2007 11:04 Comments || Top||

#10  And, Zawahiri is a doc from Egypt also.
Posted by: Woozle Elmeter2970 || 07/03/2007 11:15 Comments || Top||

#11  If Muslim doctor says "If I have to fill out one more insurance form, I think I'll explode", you better take him seriously.

Al
Posted by: Frozen Al || 07/03/2007 11:25 Comments || Top||

#12  rjs has a good point

The British system has driven native Brits out. The national health system has to get them from somewhere so they import them.

A lot of British doctors have emigrated to the US as well as english speaking doctors from India, Egypt, South Africa and elsewhere. It takes them a while to get established and because of that we have a fair amount of foreign MDs doing such jobs as EMT, X ray tech, medical coding and the like.
Posted by: mhw || 07/03/2007 13:09 Comments || Top||

#13  Lucky thing they wanted boom, instead of just using their medical positions to kill some infidels.

Already happened here: Harrowing testimony heard at Dr Javed’s trial

[Friday, October 07, 2005] The jury at the trial of Punjab Health Minister Dr Tahir Ali Javed and his head nurse for medical negligence and malpractice took a break on Thursday after a dozen witnesses for the respondents had submitted their, at times, harrowing testimony about the havoc brought to the lives of those who got infected by hepatitis C at the Pakistani-American doctor’s Fremont Cancer Centre three years ago. Of the nearly 100 patients affected by hepatitis C at Dr Javed’s clinic, out of court settlements have been made by his lawyers with 82 of them.

Nebraska state Attorney General Jon Bruning said on Monday that Dr Javed would likely never be brought to justice. He said the likelihood of his head nurse getting her licence back is slim. “This was a nurse, after all, who was reusing syringes,” Bruning said. Nurse Prochaska has said that’s what she was told to do by Dr Javed. Bruning said there’s not much that can be done to discipline Dr Javed as long as he stays in Pakistan. “I don’t want to give these families false hope that the Pakistani government is going to allow the state of Nebraska to extradite Dr Javed,” Bruning said, adding that it’s terrible so many people contracted the virus, but he’s glad the people at the centre have been stopped. “I’m glad she’s no longer a licensed practitioner and that the doctor is no longer a health care provider in this state,” Bruning said. One of the patients who contracted hepatitis C at the cancer clinic has since died from liver complications.
Posted by: Cromert || 07/03/2007 19:22 Comments || Top||


Europe
Three Arrests In Northeast Spain
(AKI) - Spanish anti-terror police on Monday in the northeastern city of Barcelona arrested three Moroccan Islamist suspects allegedly belonging to a cell aiming to recruit, proselytise, and radicalise Muslims. "The cell's objective was to attend training camps in Africa's Sahel region," police said in a statement. The three men arrested are Mohammed Laksir, 23, Moulay Lahoucine Miftah Idrissi, 27, and Mohammed Akazim, 32.

Laksir and Idrissi have links with al-Qaeda, according to investigators. Their arrests were carried out in cooperation with Moroccan police after the Moroccan authorities issued arrest warrants in 2005 as part of a police probe of an alleged Salafite linked terror cell with operatives in Spain. Idrissi is the brother of Mohammed Idrissi, who has been in custody in Spain since 2005 in connection with a police investigation of alleged jihadi recruitment.
This article starring:
MOHAMED AKAZIMMoroccan Islamic Combatant Group
MOHAMED IDRISIMoroccan Islamic Combatant Group
MOHAMED LAKSIRMoroccan Islamic Combatant Group
MULAI LAHUCINE MIFTAH IDRISIMoroccan Islamic Combatant Group
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in North Africa


India-Pakistan
Lal Masjid chief cleric announces launching of Jihad™
ISLAMABAD, July 3 (Xinhua) -- The chief cleric of Lal Masjid, or the Red Mosque, in Pakistani capital, announced on Tuesday afternoon the launch of Jihad™ after the exchange of fire between Lal Masjid students and Pakistani security forces, DAWN NEWS TV channel reported Tuesday.

The chief cleric also ordered Lal Masjid militants to launch attacks on forces.

Witnesses verified that Lal Masjid militants destroyed some posts set up by government security forces. Some government buildings were also under attack from the religious students.


This article starring:
Lal Masjid
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 10:07 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Taliban

#1  "Go git yer varmint guns, boyz! Elk season is OPEN! Allanu Snackbar!"
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/03/2007 10:29 Comments || Top||

#2  Apparently, this is because of this :
Clashes at Pakistan Mosque Leave 5 Dead
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 10:32 Comments || Top||

#3  Is it time to rubbleize that eyesore yet, Perv?
Posted by: mojo || 07/03/2007 10:43 Comments || Top||

#4  I think the clashes started because the call came from Damascus or Riyadh that "everything is in place and it's time to unleash the hounds".
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/03/2007 10:48 Comments || Top||

#5  What a perfect venue for an 80 JDAM B-2 firepower demo for the Paki military and assembled natives.
Posted by: ed || 07/03/2007 11:07 Comments || Top||

#6  Update: Looks like the Brave Jihadis want a time out, especially after the Special Forces guys moved in...

After several hours of shooting outside the controversial Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) a ceasefire was negotiated.

The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan who is outside the mosque says the ceasefire was negotiated by a politician from the MMA, a coalition of Islamic parties.

Police and doctors say two policemen, one soldier, two students and a passer-by were killed. A cameraman filming the violence also died. Other reports put the death toll at more than 10.

At the height of the violence, regular police and paramilitary units ringing the mosque compound were replaced by what appeared to be special forces, our correspondent says.

Ambulances and journalists were told to move further away from the scene.

Critics have attacked the government for failing to enforce its authority in the capital. President Musharraf has previously said security forces cannot raid the mosque for fear of reprisal suicide attacks.

BBC correspondents say it is thought the mosque has powerful friends in the security services, which has prevented the authorities from taking action.

But the fact that people have now been killed in the stand-off suggests the situation may be turning against the mosque leaders, our correspondents say.
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/03/2007 11:23 Comments || Top||

#7  This is gonna be good. More Jihadists going tits-up™.
Posted by: DarthVader || 07/03/2007 11:34 Comments || Top||

#8  "Hudna, man, hudna! Can you dig it?"
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/03/2007 12:00 Comments || Top||

#9  Is collapsing the mosque upon its occupants out of the question?
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 12:47 Comments || Top||

#10  The Red MosKKK? I thought the color of the devil-worshipers was green? Together would be a Christmasy effect, and I know that's un-Islamic.
Posted by: Gary and the Samoyeds || 07/03/2007 18:43 Comments || Top||


Pak trooper killed in Lal Masjid shootout
A Pakistani paramilitary trooper was shot dead and seven students were wounded during clashes at a mosque run by a Taliban-style movement in Islamabad on Tuesday. The clashes began when around 150 students attacked a security picket at a government office near the capital's Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, snatched weapons and took four government officials hostage, according to police.

"I can confirm that one of our troopers has been killed in the firing from inside the mosque," Masha Allah, a senior paramilitary official, told reporters. A Reuters correspondent saw seven students with gunshot wounds being taken to hospital.

Paramilitary forces fired tear gas to disperse hundreds of students outside the mosque, and came under fire from automatic weapons. Several female students were taken to hospitals suffering from the effects of the gas. "We retaliated with tear gas after which gunshots were fired from inside the mosque," Zafar Iqbal, a senior police official said. "They have also taken away with them four officials of the government office."

Gun shots rang out intermittently for two hours though it was unclear if either side was firing directly on the other, as dozens of students carrying staves remained on the street outside the mosque, undeterred by the shooting.

Burqa-clad women stood on the rooftops of an adjacent madrasa, shouting anti-government slogans, while male students guarded the entrances to the compound, and some were seen brandishing Kalashnikov rifles. "Kill us. We will die but we will not back off from our demands to enforce Islamic Sharia," said Mahira, one of the female students, told Reuters by telephone.

Troops occupied buildings overlooking the sprawling mosque complex, which also houses a religious seminary, or madrasa. Police armed with batons lined up in neighboring streets, while ambulances parked nearby.
Posted by: ryuge || 07/03/2007 08:06 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Taliban

#1  two words: "air strike"
Posted by: Frank G || 07/03/2007 9:16 Comments || Top||

#2  Beeb now says 7 dead, 2 troopers. Could be the start of a long hot summer for Perv.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/03/2007 11:57 Comments || Top||

#3  elections in Nov.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 11:58 Comments || Top||

#4  If there's still a Pakistan.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/03/2007 12:01 Comments || Top||


Soldier killed in Mir Ali
MIRANSHAH: A soldier from Mir Ali was murdered, and his companion kidnapped, by armed assailants on Monday, officials said. “The killing was linked to the deceased’s association with the army,” officials told Daily Times. Soldier Farmanullah was on leave and was travelling to Sukhail village aboard a private vehicle when unidentified armed men tried to kidnap him and his friend, Ashraf Wali. “Upon resistance, the soldier was shot in the head twice, and the armed men abducted Wali,” said the officials, adding the incident happened near Mir Ali bazaar at 11.30am. Locals from Mir Ali told Daily Times that the assailants appeared to be foreigners and the soldier was killed in a “target killing”. “Farmanullah arrived in Mir Ali a few days ago on leave from the army, and had no enemies or feuds with anyone,” they added.
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Taliban


Iraq
Homemade Explosive Factory Taken Out
Another bit of evidence that the AIF are having more trouble obtaining bomb-making materials than they used to. I guess all those caches that have been found are starting to add up.

CF DESTROY HOMEMADE EXPLOSIVE FACTORY

TIKRIT, Iraq - Coalition Forces destroyed a homemade explosives factory in the Diyala River Valley, July 1st.

The factory, which was located in a single story unfinished brick structure outside the village of Mikbisa, northeast of Baqouba, was discovered on Sunday night by CF who were conducting routine patrols and noticed the suspicious looking structure.

Upon entering the building, CF discovered large amounts of fertilizer, ammonium nitrate and nitric acid, all key ingredients used in making explosives. The house also contained a drying room in which the entire floor was covered with over 500 lbs of recently manufactured HME. Additionally, a number of chemical suits and other clothing items used to work with chemicals, to include boots, goggles, vapor masks and a large number of chemical gloves were found inside the house.

"This is a significant find and confirms that al-Qaida is working against the good people of Iraq," said Maj. Gen. Benjamin R. mMixon, commanding general of Multinational Division-North and Task Force Lightning. "We have seen these homemade explosives in IEDs and car bombs that have been used against the ISF, CF and innocent people of Diyala."

When they had finished searching the building, CF destroyed the house and all of its contents.

"The fact that this factory was discovered and destroyed will undoubtedly save many lives in Iraq," said Mixon.
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 13:23 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under: Iraqi Insurgency

#1  The NYTimes will have the headline:

American Forces destroy Village Factory
Posted by: mhw || 07/03/2007 14:34 Comments || Top||

#2  Nah. Village "workshop". Makes them sound like santa's elves or something...
Posted by: tu3031 || 07/03/2007 14:38 Comments || Top||

#3  That sounds like a semi professional set up, which points the finger at you know who.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/03/2007 16:33 Comments || Top||

#4  Those fools! Instead of using a drying room they could use a blowtorch and they would be finished much quicker.
Posted by: gorb || 07/03/2007 16:49 Comments || Top||

#5  It does take a village.
Posted by: Hillary! || 07/03/2007 17:09 Comments || Top||

#6  Not sure who's meaner, Hillary or Gorb. But I like the way they think? (assuming it's not really you HC)
Posted by: plainslow || 07/03/2007 18:45 Comments || Top||


Dustup on Donkey Island
At least 23 insurgents were killed in fighting 4 kilometers south of Ramadi on Jazzera al Humar (Donkey Island) along the Nassar Canal June 30 and July 1.

Coalition and Iraqi Security Forces received reports that a significant number of anti-Iraqi forces had gathered on the outskirts of Ramadi to stage a series of large scale attacks. The group, affiliated with al Qaeda in Iraq, intended to regain a base of operations in Al Anbar with suicide car and vest bomb attacks.

The battle began at approximately 9:20 p.m. Saturday when Coalition Forces were attacked with small arms fire from two trucks near their position. U.S. Soldiers returned fire and pursued the fleeing attackers with the help of Army AH-64A Apache helicopter gun ships, Marine F-18 Hornet and AV-8B Harrier fighter jets. Helicopters killed at least one insurgent and wounded another, and destroyed the two trucks, later determined to be loaded with weapons, ammunition and explosives.

A detailed search of the area at 5 a.m. Sunday discovered 22 dead insurgents, including seven who were wearing suicide vests, as well as 24 homemade grenades, 20 pressure plate improvised explosive devices, assault rifles and machine guns, military uniforms, suicide vests and backpacks with first aid kits. Most of the enemy were dressed in similar white dishdashas and white running shoes, an outfit often associated with extremist fighters prepared to kill themselves.

Coalition Forces continued their search for any remaining enemy or weapons caches in the area. Around 2 p.m., extremist forces again attacked with machine gun fire, grenades and a suicide vest. Coalition Forces responded with small arms fire and grenades, killing at least one insurgent. Helicopter gun ships and fighter jets provided aerial surveillance and engaged multiple enemy positions, including the destruction of an enemy bunker complex with precision guided munitions.

Coalition Forces detained two enemy fighters and transported them to a military detention facility for questioning.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins || 07/03/2007 09:48 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Iraqi Insurgency

#1  killing at least one insurgent i.e. finding at least 22 bodies when a thorough search is made.
Posted by: ed || 07/03/2007 10:14 Comments || Top||

#2  An attempt at a diversionary attack gone awry when somebody got trigger-happy over a passing patrol while everybody were still in the process of staging whatever it was they had planned?
Posted by: Mitch H. || 07/03/2007 14:05 Comments || Top||

#3  "...white dishdashas and white running shoes, an outfit often associated with extremist fighters prepared to kill themselves."

I wonder if they have a shoe deal.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/03/2007 20:51 Comments || Top||

#4  Nike, all the way...
Posted by: Pappy || 07/03/2007 23:30 Comments || Top||

#5  I would have thought K-Swiss for the EU angle.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/03/2007 23:36 Comments || Top||


Iraqi troops arrest "emir" of Al-Qaeda in heart of capital
BAGHDAD, July 3 (KUNA) -- Iraqi troops have detained a senior official and operator in Al-Qaeda network in Karrada, central Baghdad, during a military operation, the Multi-National Force (MNF) said in a statement on Tuesday.
Iraqi Special Operations Forces detained the alleged Al Qaeda Emir in Karrada during the operation, carried out June 28, it said.
The statement revealed neither his name nor his nationality, but it was proven that he was involved in plotting armed attacks against Iraqi and Coalition Forces, The Iraqi Special Operations Forces (ISOF) also confiscated rifles, ammunition, cell phones, handcuffs, identification cards and documents from the residence where the targeted individual was located
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 09:36 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: al-Qaeda in Iraq

#1  Well done, O Iraqi Special Operations Forces!
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/03/2007 12:01 Comments || Top||

#2  Here emir, there emir, everywhere an emir rear.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/03/2007 16:36 Comments || Top||

#3  wonder if this will make cnn/cnbc/msnbc? *crickets*
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 18:43 Comments || Top||

#4  Too many emir's spoil the the insurgency.
Posted by: Super Hose || 07/03/2007 20:53 Comments || Top||


Lebanon's Hezbollah agent played deaf before confessing
A top special operations officer with Lebanon's Hezbollah militia pretended to be deaf and mute when he was captured in Iraq earlier this year, hampering efforts to obtain his identity for weeks, U.S. intelligence officials said. Ali Mussa Daqduq, who U.S. officials say played an integral role in a January attack in Karbala that killed five Americans, allegedly was helping to train Shiite militias fighting U.S.-led coalition forces, the officials said.

Daqduq was arrested in March in the southern city of Basra, and after officials learned Daqduq's identity,
"Yo Ali, Mohammed says to tell your Mom he said hello."
the alleged explosives expert began talking, officials said Daqduq was captured in a raid aimed at seizing another Shiite militant leader suspected of involvement in the January 20 Karbala attack, said Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner. Intelligence officials said that Daqduq and the Iraqi militia commanders with whom he worked have admitted working with Iran's Quds Force.

The Iranian special operations force "is using Lebanese Hezbollah essentially as a proxy, as a surrogate, in Iraq," Bergner said. He added that the military is learning about the "specific motivations behind those operations."

U.S. commanders have maintained for months that members of the Quds Force, a branch of Iran's Revolutionary Guard, have been training and providing weaponry to Iraqi militants. Washington repeatedly has accused Tehran of ignoring the flow of weapons and militants across its border with Iraq. U.S. demands that the Islamic republic stop such traffic, coupled with long-standing tensions over Iran's nuclear program, has fueled fears of a wider war in the region.

Iran, which has close ties to the Shiite parties controlling Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's government, has repeatedly denied the allegations. U.S. intelligence officials, however, say the Quds Force is trying to model special Shiite groups after Hezbollah, which holds considerable sway in southern Lebanon. The Quds Force has provided weapons and between $750,000 and $3 million to these groups, Bergner said. "Without this support, these special groups would be hard-pressed to conduct their operations in Iraq," the general said.

The Karbala operation was aimed at taking captives who could be traded for five Iranians held by U.S. troops after a January 10 raid in Irbil in northern Iraq, U.S. and Iraqi militia sources said. But the attack went awry and five Americans were killed, the sources said.

Qais Khazali, a former spokesman for radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi Army militia, was sought in connection with the attack. When he was arrested in March, he had left the Mehdi Army and was heading one of the special Shiite groups, U.S. intelligence officials said. In searching for Khazali, troops found Daqduq and computer documents detailing the planning and training for the failed kidnapping, intelligence officials said.

A Hezbollah spokesman in Lebanon said he would not dignify the U.S. allegations with a response. It's unclear why Hezbollah would send advisers to Iraq, but U.S. intelligence officers say they suspect Hezbollah is indebted to Iran for decades of military and financial support. Mehdi Army officials deny receiving any military aid, though they say they share some of Hezbollah's ideals. "I say clearly that we do not accept any logistic, financial or any other kind of support from anyone outside the borders of Iraq," said Rassim al-Marwani, al-Sadr's cultural adviser.
This article starring:
ALI MUSA DAQDUQHezbollah
Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner
MUQTADA AL SADRMehdi Army
Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki
QAIS KHAZALIMehdi Army
RASIM AL MARWANIMehdi Army
Mehdi Army
Quds Force
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Mahdi Army

#1  "Can you hear me now?"
[whap]
"Can you hear me now?"
[whap]
"Can you hear me now?"
[whap]
"Can you hear me now?"
[whap]
"Can you hear me now?"
[whap]
"Can you hear me now?"
[whap] ...
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 3:56 Comments || Top||

#2  LOL!
Posted by: Brett || 07/03/2007 8:13 Comments || Top||

#3  Tryptophanes are a wonderful thing. So invisible to nutritional needs when added or subtracted from a tasteless, textureless diet.
Posted by: trailing wife || 07/03/2007 9:44 Comments || Top||

#4  Set his turban on fire and see how he acts.
Posted by: gorb || 07/03/2007 11:58 Comments || Top||

#5  "pretended to be deaf and mute" . . huh . . . my kids used to try that one when they were in trouble-- lol : )
Posted by: ex-lib || 07/03/2007 14:51 Comments || Top||


Israel-Palestine-Jordan
Fatah arrests more Hamas operatives in the West bank
From Haaretz early pm local time July 3

In an effort to quash Hamas in the West Bank, Fatah security forces recently arrested dozens of members of the Islamic group in the area and confiscated a considerable amount of weapons, a senior Palestinian official [probably Ereket or Dahlan] told Haaretz Tuesday.

The Hamas detainees revealed during questioning [ probably through heavy physical coersion] that their organization had been establishing sleeper cells of the group's "executive force" in the West Bank, the official allied to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas reported.

"They had an organized chain of command, weapons, they even trained in various places," he said. "We are currently working toward dismantling the Hamas infrastructure in the West Bank." He added that the West Bank security forces intend to continue battling the establishment of a Hamas network in the area.

The official said that the arrests were not coordinated with Israel [but the location of the cells was], and that Israel had no knowledge of the extent of the militant Hamas presence in the West Bank [only a good estimate].


Posted by: mhw || 07/03/2007 09:07 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Hamas


Spokesman for Johnston's captors held by Hamas
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/03/2007 01:33 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Hamas

#1  Let the fun insanity killing lunacy hilarity festivities games begin!
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 2:38 Comments || Top||

#2  caught this lil bit at the end:
Mordechai Vanunu, the Israeli whistleblower jailed for 18 years for revealing details of the country's nuclear programme in 1986, was sentenced to another six months for violating the terms of his parole by talking to foreign journalists and visiting Bethlehem.
Posted by: Frank G || 07/03/2007 9:28 Comments || Top||


Southeast Asia
Thai Military Raids Madrassa, Capturing Bombmakers
Seven suspected Muslim insurgents arrested in a raid at an Islamic school were identified Tuesday by the Thai army as some of the rebels' top bomb-making specialists in the violence-wracked south.

Police and soldiers raided a private Islamic school in Narathiwat province's Muang district on Sunday night, where they arrested the seven suspects, who were accused of assembling and planting bombs, said army spokesman Col. Akara Thiprote said.

They were suspected of involvement in some of the worst recent violence in the region, including a roadside bombing that killed 11 paramilitary troops on May 31, said Akara.
An Islamist school involved in terrorism? If this happened in the UK under Brown's new policy, they would have to scrub the entire story.

They'd have to say that a religious institution of undetermined origin was raided and a number of persons were taken into custody. No mention of religion. No mention of a madrassa. Nothing.
Posted by: lawhawk || 07/03/2007 13:12 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Thai Insurgency

#1  Glenmore, were you on the same flight(s) as Dean Barnett?
Posted by: mrp || 07/03/2007 19:28 Comments || Top||

#2  Sorry, wrong thread (sigh).
Posted by: mrp || 07/03/2007 19:29 Comments || Top||


Two terrorists killed, school bombed in southern Thailand
Two unidentified gunmen were shot dead by police in Pattani's Yarang district on Tuesday. Four plainclothes policemen on patrol in their pick-up truck saw two young men on a motorcycle who seemed suspect to them, and told them to pull over. The young men opened fire at the police, who exchanged gunfire and the two men were shot dead. The police officers were unscathed.

Afterwards police found an assault rifle and a shotgun near their bodies. According to the investigation, the shotgun belonged to a policeman killed in a drive-by shooting in Yarang district on December 6 last year.

Also:

The bombing of a teacher's room wounded five police officers guarding a school in Narathiwat's Chanae district early Tuesday. A remote-controlled bomb hidden in the ceiling exploded on Tuesday morning. School authorities closed Bannamwon school immediately after the incident. Five policemen who were wounded on duty were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile, police detained seven men suspected of being insurgents and of involvement in bomb attacks in the southern provinces. Five of the detainees were already named in existing arrest warrants. Pol.Lt-Gen. Jetthanakorn Napeetapat announced the news in a press conference after the arrest of the seven suspects during a raid Narathiwat's provincial seat following a tip from a local resident.

The police seized more than 100 items including three firearms, gunpowder, explosive devices, gasoline, ammunition, and electronic devices. Police are questioning the detained suspects to try to identify those persons responsible for planning the attacks and bring them to trial. They all denied being involved in the attacks.

The governor of Narathiwat said he was not concerned about a possible protest of local residents after police arrested the suspects. He said local authorities had worked with the Narathiwat Provincial Islamic Committee before the police conducted the raid. Members of the committee had prepared local residents regarding the operation, so there was no local obstruction of the police raid or protest against the detention of the suspects.
Posted by: ryuge || 07/03/2007 07:57 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Thai Insurgency


Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Leb: Zark's Brother May Be Hiding In Nahr al-Bared
(AKI) - The brother of the former leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, Jordanian-born militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, may be hiding in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon which has been at the centre of bloody clashes between the Lebanese army and Islamist fighters, a Lebanese newspaper said on Thursday. The daily al-Safir said "judicial sources from several Arab countries" believe that the man, Muhammad Khalayla is in the Nahr al-Bared campaign hiding with the Islamists of the Fatah al-Islam group.

According to the sources which the newspaper did not identify by name, Khayala sought refuge in the camp along with a militant from Yemen Hamza al-Qubti, who is wanted on terrorism charges by the Saudi authorities. The leader of Fatah al-Islam, Shaker al-Absi, who is also believed to be hiding in Nahr al-Bared, was sentenced to death in absentia together with al-Zarqawi after the two were convicted in the 2002 assassination of an American diplomat in Amman. US forces killed al-Zarqawi in Iraq last June.
This article starring:
ABU MUSAB AL ZARQAWIal-Qaeda in Iraq
HAMZA AL QUBTIal-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula
MUHAMAD KHALAILAFatah al-Islam
SHAKER AL ABSIFatah al-Islam
al-Qaeda in Iraq
Fatah al-Islam
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Fatah al-Islam


Lebanon deploys 300- strong police force along borders with Syria
A 300-strong police force deployed along Lebanon's northern borders with Syria Monday in what appears to be an attempt to prevent the alleged smuggling of weapons and fighters. The state-run National News Agency (NNA) said the force set up "observation posts" along the northern border stretch from the seaside Arida crossing in the west to the village of Hnaider towards the east. The posts were erected along the southern bank of the Grand River, the natural barrier separating Lebanon from Syria in the Northern Province.

The Lebanese Army also had set up observation posts in the region following reports of stepped up smuggling of weapons from Syria to Lebanon and the trafficking of terrorists engaged in clashes with government troops.

The United Nations also has referred to reports about alleged smuggling of weapons from Syria to Lebanon. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon urged Syria and Iran last Friday to do more to prevent arms smuggling to Lebanon, citing "disturbing reports" from the Lebanese and Israeli governments of alleged violations of the U.N. arms embargo.

U.N. Security Council Resolution 1701, which ended the Hezbollah-Israel war last summer, was supposed to end the smuggling of weapons into Lebanon from neighboring Syria.

Fatah al Islam
The pro-government parliament majority has accused Syria of creating, arming and funding Fatah al Islam militants that are currently engaged in a fight with the Lebanese army in north Lebanon. They say the militants who are of different nationalities, from Bangladesh to Morocco , have entered Lebanon with their weapons illegally from Syria . They accuse Syria of using the Palestinian militants to destabilize Lebanon.

Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under: Govt of Syria

#1  Woohoo! That ought to fix it! Let's see, does that make it about one policeman every few miles or so? Against smuggling efforts supported by the Iranian government. In a society prone to bribes. And fearful for their families' lives. And with god knows what loyalties.
Posted by: gorb || 07/03/2007 3:20 Comments || Top||

#2  1. The river will help.

2. If the Lebanese army is the backup, it's an improvement over the status quo.

3. The corruption, question of competence, and climate of fear is valid. But that it's even being done is an accomplishment that wouldn't have even been considered a year or two ago.
Posted by: Pappy || 07/03/2007 10:08 Comments || Top||

#3  Well, just reading about the Leb army, and how it stuck to its guns against those terrorists, and seemingly, did a pretty good job. Now this kind of security. Yea, it's not like US, but I got to be wondering, we sent ammo into them. Who else and what else has also been sent to them? Give them credit for the fighting they are doing.
Posted by: Sherry || 07/03/2007 10:56 Comments || Top||


Good morning
Bush spares Libby from prisonSolana: Iran could be linked to Gaza and Lebanon attacksKamel Merimi no longer Algeria's most dangerous terroristSaudi clerics warn Paleos against giving up Struggle™UK bomb plot suspect 'arrested in Brisbane''Mujahideen' warn clerics to withdraw suicide bombing fatwaIran, Venezuela in 'axis of unity' against US
Posted by: Fred || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [0 views] Top|| File under:

#1  I thought she'd play tennis like she made movies! Going backwards and in high heels.
Posted by: AlmostAnonymous5839 || 07/03/2007 2:22 Comments || Top||

#2  I like the way she handles balls.
Posted by: Beavis || 07/03/2007 7:52 Comments || Top||

#3  Kamel now the proud proprieter of small daisy far, spends his days herding worms
LOLOLOL!
Posted by: Deacon Blues || 07/03/2007 8:00 Comments || Top||

#4  ♪Home. Home on the remains.♫
Posted by: Kamel || 07/03/2007 8:07 Comments || Top||

#5  Saw her in an old movie on TV not long ago. She was hot.
Posted by: Ebbang Uluque6305 || 07/03/2007 11:40 Comments || Top||


Tense times
Yesterday I had a elegant little moditorial written and waiting in the hopper for Fred's approval when the server ate it and let out a tiny burp. I was and still am worried that the good netizens of Rantburgia are reacting to the rising tensions by fighting ... with each other. I worry that we need to be thinking more strategically; I think the time for reacting to the latest attack is past. Our Enemies are more than willing to supply us with atrocities, horrors, and unthinkables.

So what's next? What can we do as a civilization and a website? I worry that I spend too much time behind a keyboard and not enough time convincing my friends, their friends, and their friends' friends. But in the meantime I will just like to encourage my RB friends to remember the big picture. We are few enough as it is and we'll need each other more in the coming years.
"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately."

Ben Franklin


Something I've been thinking about lately:

Somehow the Founding Fathers managed to work in a common cause despite their deep disagreements on some points. (Not to mention some collossal, um, "personality conflicts". A couple of those guys DETESTED one another.)

They got over that because they had to. They had to form a government and figure out how to make it work. There was a lot at stake and they were facing new kinds of challenges. There weren't a lot of blueprints lying around. So they had to debate and think things through before they reached decisions.

We too are facing new kinds of challenges and a lot is at stake. And IMO we need the same kinds of debates. Acknowledging the risks and likely side effects of potential courses of action -- on Iran, on immigration, on dealing with terrorism and the jihadis. Laying out our assumptions and predictions for others to comment on and evaluate. Trying to get the best 3-dimensional view of the issue we can, which pretty much always entails multiple points of view.

This should be happening in Congress, in the media, in our universities. But it's not. So it's up to us to do it ourselves.

I think that if we put our heads together this way, we might come to some clarity on next steps to take.

What do you think?
When one gets away from the MSM, the Congress and the 'elites' that think they run this country (wonder if the immigration bill has made a dent in their skulls), one finds that there are a lot of people who are pretty darned sensible and reasonable about what's happening in the world. I experience this daily with the people I encounter at work and in my neighborhood, and I live and work in two of the bluest neighborhoods in one of the bluest states in the country.

People don't like what President Bush has done in the War on Terror because he hasn't explained it very well, and that void has been filled with a lot of untruths and nastiness. But there are plenty of people who understand that the Islamicists don't mean us well, that Sharia is an awful and disgusting way to run peoples' lives, and that words mean a whole lot less than action. It's no surprise at all that our military is the most respected institution in our country today: it's honest, it works for everyone who is in it, and it actually does something every day.

People understand that Saddam was evil, even if they're unhappy about the way Iraq is today. People understand that al-Qaeda is a threat to them, even if they don't know how to respond to that threat.

Margaret Thatcher once said, "people don't need to be educated so much as reminded." As Seafarious and lotp point out, more of us need to connect with each other in the real world. Let's face it, our politicans and our elites aren't going to get it done, so it's up to us. We need to remind each other, our friends, our neighbors -- gently, sensibly, and with the understanding that we're all in the same boat. We will indeed all hang together. The soft voice, the easy reach of reason, and a sensibility that dictates that we lay it out again, and again, and a little at a time, and then a little more.

Americans, Winston Churchill once noted, may arrive late, but they always arrive.
Posted by: Seafarious || 07/03/2007 00:00 || Comments || Link || [1 views] Top|| File under:

#1  "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

Winston Churchill

Islamic terrorism has a long way to go, and in my opinion will get a lot worse, before it gets better (assuming it does). Someone yesterday referred to the 19th century anarchists bringing the house down around them in the form of WW1. We may yet get to such an outcome, but it's still a long way off and there are several stages we need to go through first.

The IRA created a terrorist organization capable of high-tempo terrorist operations for years if not decades. What most people don't appreciate is how small the population they worked in was.

There were about 100,000 male Catholics between 18 and 45 in Northern Ireland. Police, army, counter terrorism and various agencies employed very roughly the same number (100,000 people). Now, bear in mind the number of active IRA members was only a few hundred.

It's clear that counter terrorism, as practiced in the West, simply doesn't scale. Relatively small numbers of terrorists will rapidly overwhelm much larger counter-terrorist organizations.

Were I running AQ, I would be focusing on scaling up. BTW, I don't see any indication they are. Because past a certain frequency of attacks, the current counter-terrorism strategy will have to be abandoned and something more draconian implemented, such as detention without trial, and this is what they need to solidify the Muslim community behind them.
Posted by: phil_b || 07/03/2007 0:59 Comments || Top||

#2  You are right, of course, we must hang together, remind each other of the dangers, and arrive at where we need to be. Let's remember, however, these bad guys are not as tough as Commanches and they are not nearly as smart as they think they are. They appear to be mean little men who never had a whop on their bottoms from their mommies, which in their culture is forbidden, and whose wives know their place. Let's stay alert, stay cool, and get these guys one at a time.
Posted by: whatadeal || 07/03/2007 1:04 Comments || Top||

#3  Bi-partisanship is great, but both sides seem to be falling over themselves in white-washing the jihad out of Islam. I don't expect wild rhetoric about horned Muslims, but we should accept nothing less than total honesty concerning the implications of co-existence with an exclusivist and predatory blob of demographic hate.
Posted by: McZoid || 07/03/2007 3:12 Comments || Top||

#4  Our Enemies are more than willing to supply us with atrocities, horrors, and unthinkables.

I still wonder if our success relies upon being able to return the favor in spades.

So what's next? What can we do as a civilization and a website?

We can continue to exchange "civil, well-reasoned discourse" that proposes, analyses and refines the arguments needed to persuade those of us who remain unsure as to exactly why fighting Islam to the death is such a smart idea.

I worry that I spend too much time behind a keyboard and not enough time convincing my friends, their friends, and their friends' friends.

Which is why I try to get out and use the precious tools I've gathered here to convince other people about why America's experiment in democracy is the finest political incubator this world has ever seen. It is also why I do my damnedest to avoid participating in the pissing contests that others around here so cheerfully start. Name-calling, bullying and personalities have no place in the honest exchange of considered ideas.

Today, while walking my wolf-hybrid I chanced to encounter one of our servicemen in uniform. I stopped, saluted him, shook his hand and took a few minutes to let him know that his efforts were both appreciated and of the greatest importance. More than once he emphasized how his work was for "the security of our country". More than once I gave him my deepest heartfelt thanks.

This is the very least any of us can do. Wherever you are, wherever you go, wherever you may be, whenever you encouter one of America's soldiers, make damn sure to stop and take the time to give them your personal thanks, support and a brief explanation why what they're doing is so critical to our future.

Then, take those same principles and walk them down the sidewalk to your doubting friend, neighbor or stranger on the street and reapply them in the same fashion.

I cannot thank Rantburg enough for lifting the miasma of media induced gloom and doom from my shoulders. At every opportunity I carry forward the useful knowledge gathered here and scatter it to the winds of change in my daily life. There is no way that I can adequately thank Fred and Rantburg's moderators for this.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 3:14 Comments || Top||

#5  Ash I wash shaying yeshterday...

I had become intimately aquainted with a bottle of 12 yr old single malt - it was a special occasion - a stag weekend.

I apologize unreservedly for starting off the name calling yesterday. The fact that I think Snowmans views to be idiotic does not entitle me to call him an idiot. (I dont think you are an idiot A.S.)

You have to see it in context as well. Recall a few days post 9/11 when the episode of Panorama (al-Beeb pol chat show) featured an endless queue of hand wringers fighting over who could denounce US policies the loudest, for being the prime motivation. I was furious at my countrymen at the time and I am not proud to say that in the light of the most recent attacks, when people all around view it as yet another tit-for-tat, ignoring the fact that they were sanctioned at a high level by religious and political leaders of Islamic countries, merely weeks prior, that I reacted with the same emotion. Fury.

I went home half way through that thread and when I came back, I saw that the prescribed solution seemed to be going along the lines of abolish the Church of England and dont criticize Islam too much, you big prejudiced waaycist, in case you upset the unwashed masses. My fury has now given way to a paranoid fear that you are all minions of Baal, agents of Molech, servants of Satan.

But then again, that could still just be the the Scotch...
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 5:34 Comments || Top||

#6  ...ahhhhhh thats better, fury's kicking back in now.

Yes I am absolutely furious about the Marxist ramblings of yesterday. Who the heck do you think you are to tell us what to do with our cherished institutions? As I mentioned in my previous post, Re the Panorama episode, there is no shortage of Dialectical materialists over here, ready to blame US foreign policy for the truly abominable acts of random carnage of 9/11. I expect better from the 'Burg.

I recall after the Virginia Tech shootings wishing desperately to post comments about your gun laws. I recall watching with horror how people were effectively vehemently protesting any attempt to infringe Mr Cho's right to bear arms. I remember wishing to post articles detailing the number of gun deaths in the UK (about 50 last year) compared to the US. I wanted to point out how disrespectful it was to the kids that died to prance around on their memories as a political hobby horse and how before you even think about controlling guns you should learn to control your mouths.

And the reason I didnt? Because it's your country & you can run it any way you seem fit. Charlton Heston for Prez, whatever you like. So you can take your snarks about "Separation of Church & State" & F** Off

Hows that for "Civil Well Reasoned Discourse"?
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 6:05 Comments || Top||

#7  Hows that for "Civil Well Reasoned Discourse"?

It's a start, but it could be refined - and I hope you will, over the coming weeks.

Cherished institutions in Britain are indeed under attack and it may well be the case that the US way of doing things is not a solution for y'all. What is?

For instance, what do you think are both the pros and the cons of the current UK stance on self defense (whether with guns or knives)?

What do you suggest the UK take as policy with regard it's large and increasingly unassimilated immigrant population? What risks would that policy likely entail? What would be the upside - and the likely downside - in your opinion?

How do you feel about the surveillance apparatus that was put in place in Britain over the last few years? Is your government getting the balance between civil liberties and vigilance more or less right in your opinion? What would you propose be done differently, and what would the risks/upside/downside likely be?

Given the current state of the Anglican communion and the religious diversity in Britain, what do you think will happen (or should happen) with regard to the establishment of the church there?

Please don't assume you know from these questions what policies I support. In many cases I'm still working that out for myself. And in other cases I've said very little that would indicate my stance on most policy issues. I'd like to understand your point of view.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 6:19 Comments || Top||

#8  And, of course, similar questions about the US as you see it to be, from the outside.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 6:20 Comments || Top||

#9  Yeah, yeah, "Civil Well Reasoned Discourse" is all well and good... but like I asked yesterday, will the admiral and Abdominal Snowman duke it out in a no-hold-barred, rough-and-tumble cage fight?
I mean, I'd really like to see Johnny Knoxville rassle Bigfoot, and if that's the only way to get this on pay-per-view and make my dream come true, then, by all means let them fight, I say!
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 7:21 Comments || Top||

#10  I'm clearly too busy, because I've missed what has some so worried. But I have read some thoughtful threads in the last few days that present multiple sides of an argument well. I can tell because I find all sides persuasive and have difficulty deciding where we ought to be falling on some questions. The difficulty is that we're discussing what to do about the future and no one really knows what the future will bring. At least we can all agree to keep up a rambunctious debate while maintaining respect for eachother. Thanks to Fred and the Mods for providing such a homey place in which to do it.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble || 07/03/2007 7:22 Comments || Top||

#11  I've been coming to Rantburg for a while now because of the intelligent discussion, the rapid appearance of interesting and useful articles gleaned by the denizens from more places on the web than I could possible visit myself. I have tried to contribute appropriate articles and commentary - with the more-than-just-occassional snark thrown in.
Lately I have found the 'burg tending in the direction of LGF, with too much long-winded or repetitive commentary and pointless demands for violent reprisals (the 'nuke 'em all' school of thought). Those are the exact reasons I left LGF.
The way we will defeat the Islamofascists is with thoughtful communication (with a little snark for sanity); think of this site as the interface between a whole lot of parallel processors. We each pick up a little packet of thought from the data stream, process it through our own experience, and put it back for the next processor; from time to time actual answers will emerge, and just maybe they'll find their way to someone who can act on them. Who knows who scans the 'burg - DARPA?, CIA? - perhaps some ideas are already being implemented (it does appear so sometimes.)
Posted by: Glenmore || 07/03/2007 7:22 Comments || Top||

#12  A preview of that upcoming fight between the admiral and AS, from an amateur video taken by a 70's hiker.
Posted by: anonymous5089 || 07/03/2007 7:24 Comments || Top||

#13  Screw separating church and state, let's wrap a few in pig day instead. Then our soldiers can come home in new time.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 7:29 Comments || Top||

#14  Maybe the "Tense Times" post or by some other name should be a daily runnning post like "Good Morning" as a vehicle to work out some of the issues and positions outlined above. Well, maybe not exactly like "Good Morning."
Posted by: JohnQC || 07/03/2007 8:13 Comments || Top||

#15  I approve of both the Internment- and Hiroshima-Solutions that we used against militarist Japan and the local Niseii during WWII. What worked before, will work now.

Partnerships with Muslims, a policy that the President re-iterated last week at the Islamic Center of DC, won't work because ALL Muslims are jihadis at heart.

Once we come to our collective senses, we will move against the external and internal Muslim threat. There is no scenario in which 7-7-7 passes without a major terror attack. After 9-11 we chose to liberate Afghanis and Iraqis with no benefit to ourselves. Nation-building is a type of creation; maybe wholesale destruction is our forced choice.

Exactly how did nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki harm American values?
Posted by: McZoid || 07/03/2007 8:19 Comments || Top||

#16  But then again, that could still just be the the Scotch...

And it could be you're just not drinkin enough.
Posted by: badanov || 07/03/2007 8:25 Comments || Top||

#17  Admiral, don't fall off that high horse you"re riding around on the deck of your ship. Remember, it's SHARK WEEK!.

On a serious note, don't mistake our lack of constant calls to rain death down on these people to mean we don't want them dead.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 8:28 Comments || Top||

#18  McZoid, avoiding nuking someone is not about harming American values. Hell, the first country the US nuked was the US.

The issue is that it most likely will not work. The war against Japan was an entirely different war. We could go ahead and nuke Qom and Mecca before breakfast, but the war will not end.

I don't know if you're an American or not, but if you are, ask yourself if we would have accomplished much by nuking the indians.

The turf is too vast for a few nukes to get it done.

Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 8:35 Comments || Top||

#19  I approve of both the Internment- and Hiroshima-Solutions that we used against militarist Japan and the local Niseii during WWII. What worked before, will work now.

There is a part of me also that wants to destroy the problem. Terrorism tends to be stateless and more ideologically centered in islam. This makes nuclear weapons difficult to use. Syria, Iran, and Pakistan are at the nucleus of the islamic wet dream of world domination. Home grown islamic terrorism can be rooted out and controlled if the rules we live by in a democracy are changed as in a war time setting. I don't think the majority of the population believes we are at war. This results because of a blind adherence to political correctness--the desire not to hurt anyone's feelings. Our governments have not prepared our countries to get people to thinking we are at war.

Partnerships with Muslims, a policy that the President re-iterated last week at the Islamic Center of DC, won't work because ALL Muslims are jihadis at heart.

More PC!

Once we come to our collective senses, we will move against the external and internal Muslim threat. There is no scenario in which 7-7-7 passes without a major terror attack. After 9-11 we chose to liberate Afghanis and Iraqis with no benefit to ourselves. Nation-building is a type of creation; maybe wholesale destruction is our forced choice.

Nation building after we win. Let's worry about winning first.
Posted by: JohnQC || 07/03/2007 8:44 Comments || Top||

#20  ALL Muslims are Jihadis at heart? Including this guy?
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 8:53 Comments || Top||

#21  Are all mooselimbs jihadis at heart? I don't know. We have muslims fighting in the U.S. military.
Posted by: JohnQC || 07/03/2007 8:57 Comments || Top||

#22  For the more refined among us (in the UK) I can most highly recommend a wee dram of the Celtic Uisghe Beatha by the name of Glen Marnoch. That was the one responsible for my weekend of frivolity. It is currently selling in Aldi (a Guerrman supermarkt) for about twelve quid, which for a 12 yr old single malt is outstanding value. It has a quite a honeyed, very smooth taste. I normally prefer a peatier number, but this offer is too good to miss. I nearly passed it by, as Aldi usually specialise in cheapo blended brands.

Anyway, my opinion on the gun debate is that arguments that lives would be saved by everybody having guns, on the basis that mass killers would be shot earlier, mid-spree are fatuous and ignore the massive number of individual gun deaths.

I recognize that an un-armed populace is more susceptible to terror, whether it be from unorganised individuals, organised crime, unorganised terrorists or ordered cells. I also believe, however, that a largely armed populace is liable to paranoia.

With regards the "increasingly unassimilated" bit, I must insist on a bit of semantic nitpicking. If you mean that unassimilation is increasing, then yes, in part. I disagree that the populations are largely unassimilated, however. I regularly have heated discussions with friends of all faiths, esp Muslims, with no problems. I feel I must point out that many of the most prominent critics of the Jihadist-Islamist ideology were either born in or studied in the UK. There is a long tradition of deconstructing the Koran, starting with Muir - presently being reclaimed from the likes of Watt by great zandaqa like Ibn Warraq (now regrettably in the US, I hear). I do worry that this, most important battle, of "root causes", will be lost and our universities will become Saudi sponsored hotbeds of fundamentalism like yours did. I have faith in our ability to root out truth from all the moral relativistic froth and divide & rule militaristic bluff, because I have faith in my own.
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 8:57 Comments || Top||

#23  Good stuff - thanks. And keep contributing your take on things please.

I've been having similar discussions with a couple UK MOD guys recently. Two countries separated by a common language and all that ...
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 8:59 Comments || Top||

#24  That guy in #20 is clearly practicing taqqiya.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 9:04 Comments || Top||

#25  With regards the "increasingly unassimilated" bit, I must insist on a bit of semantic nitpicking. If you mean that unassimilation is increasing, then yes, in part. I disagree that the populations are largely unassimilated, however. I regularly have heated discussions with friends of all faiths, esp Muslims, with no problems. I feel I must point out that many of the most prominent critics of the Jihadist-Islamist ideology were either born in or studied in the UK. There is a long tradition of deconstructing the Koran, starting with Muir - presently being reclaimed from the likes of Watt by great zandaqa like Ibn Warraq (now regrettably in the US, I hear). I do worry that this, most important battle, of "root causes", will be lost and our universities will become Saudi sponsored hotbeds of fundamentalism like yours did. I have faith in our ability to root out truth from all the moral relativistic froth and divide & rule militaristic bluff, because I have faith in my own.

Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 9:08 Comments || Top||

#26  How much do I worry about the security apparatus? ONly to the point that I can do anything about it. Moreover I will never be silenced by fear and know that deep down many of my countrymen feel the same. I see the problem as not one of preventing the technology and infrastructure of surveillance, but preventing the spread of the "aqd ul-amman" appeasement policies. I worry when I see predominantly bearded security guards.
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 9:10 Comments || Top||

#27  Mike I think you left off the [sarcasm] tag in #24. yes?
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 9:17 Comments || Top||

#28  lotp:

The Koran dictates: "jihad is prescribed to you." You posted a Muslim who attacks Muslims for not condemning terror. In another author he attacks Israel's strategic occupation and treats Rachel Corrie as a saint. Taqiyah? This dude is applying for go-to status, whenever the Beeb needs a benign-Muslim toy.
Posted by: McZoid || 07/03/2007 9:28 Comments || Top||

#29  Maybe. You may be right.

On the other hand, he may be trying to think and feel his way through a tough set of tradeoffs. If so, he's not alone. I know others doing the same thing.

The situation WRT Israel is not totally onesided IMO. Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong supporter of that state. But you don't have to be a Muslim practicing taqqia to have moral concerns about the situation there or about some of the actions the Israelis have taken over the years.

Back in 86-87, when I was involved in mil tech development for the Israeli forces, I heard the same qualms from some of my Israeli counterparts. I still remember clearly a long conversation with one, a Conservative jew, Sephardic, who had commanded armor in Lebanon.

He was convinced that that invasion would corrode Israel from within, morally and politically.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 9:55 Comments || Top||

#30  I left out the sarc quotes because it wasn't Jihadis that I was ridiculing.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 10:05 Comments || Top||

#31  re comment 20: How many Asim Siddiquis are there vs the 40% of muslims who want the UK to be ruled by sharia?
Posted by: ed || 07/03/2007 10:21 Comments || Top||

#32  Admiral Allan Ackbar

Before you rant about the small number of Gun Deaths in the UK, you must tally the number of Knifing, clubbing's and murders by automobile, then realize it's not the choice of weapon, it's the mindset of the assailant.

Guns are tools, when you get that concept, you realize that the gun is not to fault (As you so eloquently accuse) It's a long distant hole punch, much like an electric drill with a very long drill bit attached, not some intelligent entity.

I'm a machinist, I can make a gun if so desired
(It would be much easier to make a sword, or machete, Or anything else I wish, such as a bomb, I do NOT because I have no need of either) the difference is that I DO NOT PLAN TO MURDER.
Muslims DO PLAN TO MURDER and there's the whole difference.


Enjoy your Malt,
Posted by: Redneck Jim || 07/03/2007 10:36 Comments || Top||

#33  ed, that's not clear. Nor is is clear how many can emerge if some take the lead, as he and a few others are doing.

There's a struggle going on within Islam over this. It's been underground, mostly, but it's been there. Let's see if it emerges into the open after these last attacks and the mess in Gaza.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 10:44 Comments || Top||

#34  That's a very good question. The answer is very telling. The author is clearly in the minority. Muslims speaking out against barbarism is all too rare.

My stance is that this question misses completely the more salient point. We all want Islam to mend its ways, in order for that to happen, Muslims with views on Jihad that are similar to said author, author need to have their views empowered, not ridiculed.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 10:45 Comments || Top||

#35  To put numbers in some perspective, that same poll with 40% wanting sharia also showed only 3% of UK muslims held classical liberal views.
Posted by: ed || 07/03/2007 10:49 Comments || Top||

#36  So looking at those numbers, wouldn't it make sense to put a microphone in front of members of that 3% wishing to speak out?
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 10:55 Comments || Top||

#37  The problem is those 3%, while they may convince us, have no valid points to argue from an islamic perspective. They are really speaking heresies to a muslim audience.
Posted by: ed || 07/03/2007 11:20 Comments || Top||

#38  I don't believe the problem of a muslim fifth column embedded within western societies can be solved by reform within islam. It will be solved by reform away from islam.
Posted by: ed || 07/03/2007 11:22 Comments || Top||

#39  I agree with that to some extent. At this point, the fare more effective startegy for dealing with western fifth column muslims is to ban immigration from the ME, stop renewing visas and start giving them the boot for lighter and lighter reasons until the filth is gone.

That said, the only way Islam will be reformed in the west is from within. The best way to do that is to have western Muslims (the real ones, not the ones that just live in the west) call out these clowns for what they are. That combined with taking out the trash will be a very good start at keeping westerners secure from their terror.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 11:33 Comments || Top||

#40  I think our war fighting has been too conventional and too main stream!

Not enough out of the box thinking. Its not army A fighting army B. It's armies A - N fighting nutcases infinite with a bunch of failed states and narcotics thrown in with the oil.

Our best weapon would be a Satanicly devious Hollyweed if they would quit fighting civilization for a bit and join the fight.

If you stand back and look at it from Islam's perspective there are two reasons the are fighting... the first is right from Pinky and The Brain. They want to conquer the world! ,,, the second is they HAVE TO conquer the other cultures in the world, esp. the US one because ISLAMS CULTURE IS LOSING BIG TIME! Really! Note how they scream about McDonnalds and Levis and Movies and ....

One attack I have not seen the cowards in Washington consider is to drown them in all the world's cultures. (not just the US one but it is glitzy enough for fixating the maniacs.)... What about simple ideas like direct to TV set Sat broadcasts of every streamed channel on the planet. Hindu stuff, US stuff, Chinese, EU boring stuff, movies, X-Rated, Sports, adventure --- everything ...
Drown their culture in all the others...
Nat Geo and History 24x7.....

-=== many other ideas but I just don't think we have considered alternate ways to wage war enough!
(they can be concurrent with real war too.)
Posted by: 3dc || 07/03/2007 11:34 Comments || Top||

#41  Another thing, ed. You are right to expect those 3% to leave Islam instead of reforming it. It's certainly far easier.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 11:35 Comments || Top||

#42  3dc nails it. Culture war em, 24/7. Non-stop Paris Hilton, Bay Watch, Rolling Stones and Gwen Stefanie. The Magic Kingsome exists because we allow it too...we could easily change that
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 07/03/2007 12:18 Comments || Top||

#43  ima think SHARK WEEK haz a nice ring to it.
Posted by: RD || 07/03/2007 12:22 Comments || Top||

#44  grrrrrrrr 'Kingdom' PIMF
Posted by: Rex Mundi || 07/03/2007 12:30 Comments || Top||

#45  Syria, Iran, and Pakistan are at the nucleus of the islamic wet dream of world domination.

You left out Saudi Arabia, JohnQC. Other than that, great post. Nation building can wait. Regime change cannot, as in Iran. In the short term, theocratic Islam is our biggest enemy and needs to be clearly identified as such. Sadly, too many world leaders either lack the spine of simply do not comprehend its danger. Each and every Islamic theocracy needs to be taken apart at the seams. It is through state sponsorship that most terrorism gains impetus. Once we have eliminated these sponsoring regimes, we can more easily go about choking off private support.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 12:31 Comments || Top||

#46  RJ, just did a check on those stats:

Total homicides:
US = 5.6 per 100,000
UK = 1.3 per 100,000

Thats a 430% increase. Like I say, your country, do what you like. I can see the benefits of gun ownership, as mentioned in my post, its just that lower deaths isnt one of them.
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 13:04 Comments || Top||

#47  Mike N. W regards your comments on ME immigration, it is regrettable, but the Pakistani ministers warlike comments inciting terrorist acts in this country effectively force us to stop immigration from his country. No weasel wording or backpedalling should be accepted.

Were this to be suggested prior to him opening his stupid fat mouth, accusations of "racism" & "discrimination" would quite rightly have gone out. As it stands, I cant see he leaves us any choice.
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 13:14 Comments || Top||

#48  lotp: with regards #7:

Reports of the death of the Anglican communion have been vastly exaggerated... There is a huge resurgent post-modern congregation targeted at young moneyed professionals aged 20-40. Google some of the antipodean churches (Hillsong, etc) & the Alpha course. All that remains to be seen is whether these can be brought into the fold vis-a-vis Israel & non-sandal wearing solutions to global problems.

Yes, it does make me laugh up my sleeve that our future figurehead is a secretly practicing muslim, our Archbishop a druid and our last leader a closet Catholic, but even Habermas had to admit that basically we draw on these faiths & institutions for moral guidance.
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 13:19 Comments || Top||

#49  I don't think it matters whether it's 3% or 10% or 50%. The 10% with nuclear weapons will render the other 90% irrelevant, if the West intends to survive. I'm not sure the West wants to survive because it no longer believes its culture is superior to that of the head-choppers in the Muslim world.

Why do we insist on ignoring the historical perspective? Islam has been conquering since its beginning - the Koran or the sword. The Koran commands Muslims to fight for Allah, and this is the 'orthodox' view. The jihadis are not outside of the Muslim mainstream. I have seen many calls for a Muslim reformation, but I believe that this is the Muslim reformation.

After Lepanto and Vienna, Islam was too weak to take on Europe, and the British had the brass to use Gatling guns on the Mahdis in Sudan. Now Islam has oil and the money and power it provides. They think they are strong enough to take on the West again, and the West lacks cultural confidence. They are empowered by the Russians and the Chinese. The USA faces a perfect storm. Forget about nation building, and win the war. This will require violence because the Muslims must feel defeated. Waiting will only raise the butcher's bill higher.
Posted by: SR-71 || 07/03/2007 13:20 Comments || Top||

#50  Thanks for the tip on the malt Admiral. No Surrender.
Posted by: Howard UK || 07/03/2007 13:22 Comments || Top||

#51  Jusht Boughtt Three more bottlessh )8-P""

(£12.99, not twelve quid. Fooled again...)
Posted by: Admiral Allan Ackbar || 07/03/2007 13:29 Comments || Top||

#52  SR71, I just want to be clear that I am in no way saying that we ahould sit back and wait. And not allowing them to have nuclear weapons is a no brainer. My point is that there are more Muslims trying to fix Islams problems than it often seems with the follow up point of those Muslims are more useable for us empowered than dead.
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 14:23 Comments || Top||

#53  Trying to get the best 3-dimensional view of the issue we can, which pretty much always entails multiple points of view.

Going back several years, most of these "multiple points of view" ended up in the sinktrap, or were vociferously flamed by rantburg regulars. So my question is, why start now, after you've alienated a substantial portion of your allies?
Posted by: 8872 || 07/03/2007 14:54 Comments || Top||

#54  The only people being sinktrapped where here to do nothing but get themselves sinktrapped.

TROLL!
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 14:58 Comments || Top||

#55  " I don't expect wild rhetoric about horned Muslims, but we should accept nothing less than total honesty concerning the implications of co-existence with an exclusivist and predatory blob of demographic hate . . "

Well, that is some MIGHTY fine wordsmithing, McZoid! Well put.

Don't know what's going on about the recent "fighting" on the Burg, but I say you're ALL fucking idiots. Every last one of you.

On a serious note: For crying out loud--when there's no trolls to munch on a daily basis (anyone 'member those critters?), what do we expect? People are going to go off now and then. Take it in stride and don't post on the Burg if you're (too) drunk.

A reality check: I think it's really frustrating to keep reading about all these Mohammedan fanatics essentially trying to work out their inner rage and (true) victimhood over their early sexual abuse by attacking our society--and we all know there is no cure for the kind of rampant societal dysfunction that fuels the "jihad" except to eliminate them, which bothers us in a certain sense because of the useless and pointless waste of life it is.

A solution: maybe we should all have a good workout at the gym before we share opinions here--might take the steam down a bit and make us all more reasoned and civil--and if any of us do run across a real, live, bomb-planting jihadi, we can pummel their lights out.

Posted by: ex-lib || 07/03/2007 15:15 Comments || Top||

#56  Since we're all idiots, maybe the only enlightened one amongst us can teach all of us little people.

Whaddasayta that, o' self annointed one?
Posted by: Mike N. || 07/03/2007 15:24 Comments || Top||

#57  One comment in regards to gun ownership in the U.S. We have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. The founding fathers considered gun ownership in light of personal defense as well as keeping the government from running amuck.

Jamaica passed draconian laws some years ago. Despite guns being illegal, they have experienced increasing violent crime.
Posted by: JohnQC || 07/03/2007 15:37 Comments || Top||

#58  re: #48, yes I've heard good things about some of the quiet resurgence in the UK.

I was thinking about the Anglican communion at the international level, where the orthodox African churches are now providing provincial oversight to some Episcopalian dioceses in response to the increasingly unorthodox stances of The Episcopal Church (as it as recently restyled itself).

My lord the Archbishop of Canterbury will be presiding over a meeting shortly to which a number of provinces are refusing to attend, not only several from Africa but the Australians are going with a very pointed message to the enablers there.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 15:52 Comments || Top||

#59  BTW, here is the letter sent by the bishops of Rwanda to the Most Reverend etc. Rowan Williams. Excerpt:

Therefore, in view of the above, in good conscience, the bishops of the Province of the Episcopal Church of Rwanda have resolved not to attend the Lambeth Conference 2008 unless the previously stipulated requirement of repentance on the part of the The Episcopal Church (TEC) and other like-minded Provinces is met, and invitations are extended to our entire House of Bishops.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 16:04 Comments || Top||

#60  I don't think it matters whether it's 3% or 10% or 50%. The 10% with nuclear weapons will render the other 90% irrelevant, if the West intends to survive.

SR-71, your excellent point goes well beyond survival of the West. Muslim survival depends utterly upon their collective will to eliminate the 10% you mention. As Wretchard summarizes in his superb analysis, "The Three Conjectures":

The greatest threat to Muslims is radical Islam; and the greatest threat of all is a radical Islam armed with weapons of mass destruction.

Furthermore, even America's downfall would not avert Islam's self-destruction. Wretchrd covers this as well:

Even if the President decided to let all Americans die to expiate their historical guilt, why would Islamic terrorists stop after that? They would move on to Europe and Asia until finally China, Russia, Japan, India or Israel, none of them squeamish, wrote -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column.

Islam does not have the military resources to prosecute its quest for global domination. Even without any intervention they will not have them for decades to come. The hastiness with which Muslims are pursuing global jihad absolutely guarantees that they will earn the wrath of a nuclear power who will not flinch at incinerating every single Muslim majority country on earth.

This is the elephant in the room that nearly all Muslims steadfastly ignore. In their secret or even overt admiration for Islamic jihadists, they march towards the precipice of nuclear doom.

The Koran commands Muslims to fight for Allah, and this is the 'orthodox' view. The jihadis are not outside of the Muslim mainstream. I have seen many calls for a Muslim reformation, but I believe that this is the Muslim reformation.

Outstanding observation! Islam is reforming. It is evolving to a more "pure" form of fundamentalism whose literal translation of the Koran impells them to global jihad. Witness the constant bloodshed between Muslims over Islamic purity. There is no other form of modification happening. The West is beyond stupid not to recognize this and act accordingly.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 16:13 Comments || Top||

#61  The only people being sinktrapped where here to do nothing but get themselves sinktrapped.

A brief perusal of the sinktrap will prove you wrong. Not everything in there deserves to be there, it's just that some egos couldn't handle it.
Posted by: 8872 || 07/03/2007 16:53 Comments || Top||

#62  We (the U.S.) has been dealing with islamic terrorism for about 30-40 years. It has been contained for the most part. There are times we should have acted firmly, harshly, and aggressively. It was a mistake to not do so. I'm thinking of the takeover our embassy in Iran and the taking of hostages. This should have brought a harsh, swift and overwhelming response. The bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon should have brought the same kind of harsh response. By not acting we have encouraged an enemy. This enemy is driven by fanaticism and religion. The enemy has no rules. The recent bombing attempts in London and Glasgow show that the privileged also take up jihad for some perceived wrongs. We also see that thugs such as Zarqawi take up jihad. The commonality of the privileged and not privileged is their religion. Bin Laden was privileged and he ran 20,000 or more through his jihadi training camps. He unleased a cancer upon the world. A law and order model may not be sufficient to deal with this scourge upon mankind. We will not be able to build enough prisons to hold all of these would be jihadis. Moreover, a society cannot long endure the costs of housing and feeding incarcerated prisoners. Democratic countries are going to have to come up with other strategies for dealing with jihadists. We cannot continue to arrest and incarcerate prisoners. The upshot is that someday the jihadists are going to get lucky and we will see something that overshadows 911. We need to work with each other and not against each other to overcome the islamic problem. We can't be fighting a hostile press and a carping opposition party that is trying to make points and get elected. We don't have that luxury. The jihadists are at war with us and it is a world wide war. The war takes place in far away places and it takes place within our countries. This is WWIII.
Posted by: JohnQC || 07/03/2007 16:59 Comments || Top||

#63  "Tense times"

I read the title and thought it was a command to watch my grammar.
Posted by: Mark E. || 07/03/2007 17:08 Comments || Top||

#64  I suspect that much of the wind has been taken out of the sails of radical Islam, and that things are actually winding down.

My reasons are that first, radical Islam and Mahdi uprisings have happened before, and that for all sorts of reasons, they peter out.

First and foremost, they offer nothing equal to or better than the existing nation-states of the world. They have no better organization that can be offered to people, so what they promise is like what anarchists promise: chaos. At best, they have a single charismatic leader who promises dictatorship.

This leads to their second problem, that in truth, this is not a religious conflict, it is a fight between civilization and barbarity. What they want is to force people, especially their own people, to abandon modernity and embrace primitivism. To forget that airplanes and cars and school and even electricity exist.

The reason they want to fight at all is that they and their people can no longer ignore or pretend away civilization and technology all around them. And they know that even their own people are more than glad to give up the old ways for something better. They will vote with their feet.

From this, the question becomes, what threat, really, do such barbarians pose to civilization?

We are at greatest risk by those that dwell among us, this is obvious. But the vast majority that do are not in conflict with us--they like it here, because it is not miserable and primitive like the land they left. And the longer they live here, the harder it will be for them even imagine going back to the way things were.

So the dangerous ones, the real vipers in our midst, are recent arrivals, nourished on hatred and the desire to destroy elsewhere, who have come to our shores prepared to attack us and reject all that they see as evil.

Our modern nations are well equipped to police up such people once they arrive, if their numbers are small enough. So our concern has been to prevent so many equipped terrorists arriving that our police are overwhelmed.

But it is terribly hard to track such people down in their home nations prior to their arrival here. Which is where Iraq and Afghanistan come into play. If we can convince their most violent, capable and effective killers to go *there* instead, to fight and be killed by our soldiers, instead of them coming here to kill our civilians, then the advantage is ours.

And there is a finite supply of their capable fighters. Most of them just don't have the chutzpah to do what it takes to travel to a distant nation to commit acts of terror.

And we have been terribly attriting such people. Perhaps two generations of the top barbarians have already met their fate, never to return and spread chaos to their home countries, or to us.

As was the case in the earlier uprisings. When a sufficient number of radicals and true believers was eliminated, the movement fell apart and died out. The stragglers and remnants will still be policed up for years, along with many who will give up their radicalism and embrace the system, but it will be a police matter, much less a military one.

Were al-Qaeda not supported by a few governments, it is probable that they would have already faded from view. But while they can extend its life, they cannot easily resurrect it.

Militarily, we too will have other things to think about. Other challenges and conflicts. Such is the way of things.
Posted by: Anonymoose || 07/03/2007 17:12 Comments || Top||

#65  I think my neck hurt from the whiplash comment-to-comment in this thread. At the end, can anyone complete this statement: "to summarize..." in less than a thousand words? Zen - you're already DQ'd :-)
Posted by: Frank G || 07/03/2007 19:31 Comments || Top||

#66  FWIW:

SR-71 hits it close to my view on them as well. Imho, Islam will only have a reform when they start changing or modifying the edicts actually written in their holy book - & if any of them are brave or wise enough to do that then it's obviously apostacy by their own laws - you see the paradox. No other way for them to reform other then to say much of the koran is b.s. *or* that it's no longer relevant to this day and age of nuclear weapons and mass transit. Kind of like how many christians feel today about the O.T. and stoning homos. Until the majority of them realize that the sep of church and state is a great thing *And* they actually stand firm on that principle, they will be hurting. In the mean time I would be planting more seeds of hate, discontent, subterfuge and anything else my twisted little crocodilian mind can think up to mess w/their religious leaders and terro networks. Saudi, Iran, & Syria would be getting wetworked like it was all u-can-eat sunday brunch at the golden corral.

AAA - I like your ideas on the muslims in the UK however I vehemently disagree w/your assertionns wrt guns. As you well know, the RKBA is our constitutional 2nd Amendment. The UK and the rest of the euros need to realize there is no dicussion on this pont from an American standpoint (at least those of us who actually understand our constitution and our founder's intents). It's my right as an American to own a firearm - case closed. (as the second amendment always ensures the first amendment - see how many libz miss that lil' correlation) Now, as a parent I have a God given onus to protect my family to the best of my ability - beyond the gov't - who derives their power from the consent of the American citizen. If the gov't prohibits me or any other American the *realistic means* to ensure our family's personal safety they prolly will have another revolution on their hands. Too bad idiots like Pelosi, Clinton, and those brady bill lovin' dorks in NYC don't get it.

Now, if my fellow countrymen are too f*ck'n stupid to respect their guns or teach their family the same, why should I lose my right to own one? Thus compromising the security of my wife, son & daughter. In an open society criminals will always find a way to obtain guns illegally - hence them being criminals. If your gov't doesn't trust law abiding Brits to own firearms then that's your business. I think it's insane but that's just me. No one has a right to break into my property or threaten my family. I don't need to wait for them to make their intentions known, you break into my home w/a knife, club, whatever, - the U.S. taxpayer paid a lot of money in training me how to shoot fairly well - so break into my home, die in my home. BTW - Mike Moore lied through his teeth in bowling for columbine. The NRA is one of the best orgs in my country *and* the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding folks who respect what a firearm can do - not the gun nutz portrayed. News flash for our across the pond brethren - 95% of U.S. gun owners actually have all their own teeth and are not paranoid rambo wannabees.

If we use your comparison on guns & saving lives, heck, we might as well go back to prohibition & ban all beer or your beloved "water of life" (a wee bit Mick here as well) - how many more people have been killed on the roads of America because of anheuser/busch & miller? Or better yet, maybe all Americans should have to take public transit to work because we can't trust them to drive a car. Smoking would be next on the list. Then trans fats and simple carbohydrates because there are prolly more fat asses dying and clogging health care then careless gun owners.

8872 - I concur - you do have a point. I remember Aris. Personally I thought he was a clown but he did have his points. That's when he wasn't doing his old *grab, twist & pull*. Grab something out of one of your posts, Twist it to mean something entirely different, and the Pull some bullsh*t personal attack out of it. Also, he answered a lot of legit questions w/questions or he was too arrogant & young to cede the point that he really had no clue what he was talking about it other than google. I'll never forget his Greekness trying to lecture many of us who lived in the south about the real causes of the U.S. civil war - too ironic for words. Personally, I try to stay away from calling legit folks or any regs *stupid* or what not. I also actually got along with Not Mike Moore who a lot of people here despised. Sure, he had some whacky notions but I usually attacked his arguments vice his intellect. Now, if someone called me out, sure, I'm gonna give it back but I'm not gonna ask for the ban. The no kidding kos trolls are free game however.
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 19:43 Comments || Top||

#67  Heck Frank, after my last rant I'm tapping out on the mat as well :)
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 19:44 Comments || Top||

#68  broadhead6, from a favorite song of mine, by the Celtic folk rock group Lenahan:

If the day ever comes when I should have to fire a gun,
Well it won't be done for money and it won't be done for fun.
Though I pray every day that it should never come to pass,
If you tamper with my liberty, well buddy that's your ass.
See, a gun's just an instrument like any other tool,
And to be afraid to use it is to be a bloody fool.
So before you come to visit me, remember where I'm from,
For I'll help you get to Heaven if that day should come.


Except I like shooting. ;-)

Tom Lenahan grew up in an Irish immigrant family on the South Side of Chicago, btw. (For those who don't know, a tough neighborhood.) He played drums for some of the best old bluesmen in Chicago before striking out on his own.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 19:55 Comments || Top||

#69  By not acting we have encouraged an enemy. This enemy is driven by fanaticism and religion. The enemy has no rules.

This remains the central problem, JohnQC. What rules are appropriate in fighting an enemy that has none? One of the few axioms that come to mind is “fighting fire with fire”. This is why my own suggestions often seem so extreme. I still believe that repaying Islam in its own coin will yield far more progress than we’ve seen to date. If Islam is so enamored of terrorism, then they must become terrified of its consequences.

A law and order model may not be sufficient to deal with this scourge upon mankind. We will not be able to build enough prisons to hold all of these would be jihadis. Moreover, a society cannot long endure the costs of housing and feeding incarcerated prisoners.

Police action against this sort of borderless, asymmetrical warfare is ludicrous.

Democratic countries are going to have to come up with other strategies for dealing with jihadists. We cannot continue to arrest and incarcerate prisoners.

Britain is already out of prison space, yet the attacks continue. It is folly to think that America will not encounter the same limitations. This is why I continue to advocate such unpopular measures as mass deportation.

The upshot is that someday the jihadists are going to get lucky and we will see something that overshadows 911.

This is what I would prefer to avoid, both for our sake and that of this world’s Muslim population. The repercussions from another atrocity of even greater magnitude could tip the scales in a devastating fashion. To date, Muslims simply have not done nearly enough to avert the threat that radical Islam presents to their own ranks, let alone the West. Muslims eliminating their jihadist scum represents a critical litmus test, their bona fides in demonstrating true sincerity with respect to genuinely fighting terrorism.

I suspect that much of the wind has been taken out of the sails of radical Islam, and that things are actually winding down.

I disagree, ‘moose. Such optimism or wishful thinking is perilous when there have been no concessions from even the slightest fraction of our enemy.

First and foremost, they offer nothing equal to or better than the existing nation-states of the world. They have no better organization that can be offered to people, so what they promise is like what anarchists promise: chaos. At best, they have a single charismatic leader who promises dictatorship.

Agreed, but please consider how much of their high context culture centers upon the charismatic leadership of dictatorial authoritarians. This is almost genetically inbred and cannot be dismissed as a mitigating factor against any hope for peaceful coexistence.

This leads to their second problem, that in truth, this is not a religious conflict, it is a fight between civilization and barbarity. What they want is to force people, especially their own people, to abandon modernity and embrace primitivism. To forget that airplanes and cars and school and even electricity exist.

No truer words have been spoken. It is why I refuse to stop considering even the most brutal forms of retaliation and attack for the sake of deteating Islam.

The reason they want to fight at all is that they and their people can no longer ignore or pretend away civilization and technology all around them. And they know that even their own people are more than glad to give up the old ways for something better. They will vote with their feet.

The pedestrian electoral method you suggest is far too sluggish to prevent “something that overshadows 911”, as JohnQC correctly predicts.

From this, the question becomes, what threat, really, do such barbarians pose to civilization?

Enough whereby we cannot afford to ignore or merely police it.

We are at greatest risk by those that dwell among us, this is obvious. But the vast majority that do are not in conflict with us--they like it here, because it is not miserable and primitive like the land they left. And the longer they live here, the harder it will be for them even imagine going back to the way things were.

None of this prevents them from feelings of obligation that ease any pangs of conscience as they pour further millions upon millions of zakat into the treasuries of terrorism. This is simply unacceptable. The presence of those who overtly or tacitly sponsor terrorism is not an option.

As I mentioned before, it is up to the world’s Muslims to police their fanatical co-religionists. This is their demonstration of resolve, their proof of sincerity. Expecting the West to clean house for them at our immense expense is simply too high a price for us to bear. Verily, the potential toll upon humanity is disturbing at least. Some billion or more people may perish for the misdeeds of fanatics who have dauntingly been granted free passage amongst them.

We must not let this be our primary concern. Islam and its following continues to makes its own bed. If Muslims deny the coverlet of nettles that they draw to their breast then so be it. Let them feel the pain they have earned with such generous contributions to our suffering.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 19:56 Comments || Top||

#70  That said, it saddens and infuriates me when idiots don't keep guns away from kids or teach them gun safety and respect.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 19:57 Comments || Top||

#71  Thanks lotp - that's a bad ass verse. I'll have to check that Lenahan guy out. Was he Willie Dixon era Chicago Blues?

I like marksmanship training to - also like to do skeet, shoot trap, and hunt when possible. My question to the usual anti-gun wimp - if guns are so dangerous, why are there less injuries on gun ranges then just about any other out door recreation?

I agree w/your respect the gun issue. As you no doubt were in the mil or dealt w/them, they do a great job of teaching correct and safe firearms handling. For me it began at a young age; my father (the proverbial blowhard mick who ate and drank too much) - owned several beautiful antique firearms that he shot occasionally. I earned a healthy respect from a good spanking he gave me *once* for not heeding his rules wrt his weapons. (of course the gov't would prolly call that child abuse nowadays) I also earned a good respect when I saw him decap a watermelon w/a .51 cal muzzleloader.
Posted by: Broadhead6 || 07/03/2007 20:19 Comments || Top||

#72  broadhead, women in the military (except as WACs) was a little after my time.

I am honored to have generations of military relatives, however. Accepting that the situation was a bit different in Russia then than in the US now, my family on my father's side had one or more professional military members in every generation except one since the early 1600s. Several in my generation and more in our kids' generation.

Husband is retired military and yes, I've worked with military orgs on and off throughout my career, including as a civilian employee since 9/11. Have some close friends deployed now and some who've been there and back several times.

Some of it's not work tho ... last Saturday my husband and I treated a good friend to dinner as she faced the first weekend since her relatively new husband deployed to the Gulf. We laughed, talked, and cried a little together ... and we'll do that a lot over the coming year.

I learned the basics of shooting and a lot of gun safety and respect from my dad and uncles. Dad was a hunting/fishing guide for a while and they all hunted every year. I ate a lot of venison, rabbit, pheasant, shad, trout, bass ... as a kid.
Posted by: lotp || 07/03/2007 20:34 Comments || Top||

#73  Good thread. The consensus that I could discern is that most posters: identity themselves with Western Civilization; are becoming progressively harsher with Muslims.

Perhaps Zenster is ahead of the rest of us, in taking the leap to a total Clash orientation. Maybe in 6 months, he can tell the rest of us: you are now where I was, ideologically, half a year ago. Whatever happens on 7-7-7, I want West Muslims placed on a short leash, with a choke hold, at least.
Posted by: McZoid || 07/03/2007 21:16 Comments || Top||

#74  Perhaps Zenster is ahead of the rest of us, in taking the leap to a total Clash orientation. Maybe in 6 months, he can tell the rest of us: you are now where I was, ideologically, half a year ago.

While I often have managed to anticipate a lot of historical events, this is one I'd rather not. More than one person here has accused me of just hanging around to taunt everyone when things fall through. Nothing could be farther from the truth and I could never bring myself to be such an ingrate.

That said, my predictions stand. I feel we need to be in a "total Clash orientation" because that will best suit the West's collective ability to survive long term. That is what I want more than anything and Islam had best begin seeing to its own survival damn soon. That we have done so much to lift Islam out of the cesspit of its own making has become something of a farce of late. Soon enough it will probably be necessary to jettison such humane efforts in the pursuit of our own survival.
Posted by: Zenster || 07/03/2007 23:22 Comments || Top||

#75  A toast to the 4th. Tomorrow - parades, fireworks and fun.
Posted by: 3dc || 07/03/2007 23:53 Comments || Top||



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