Hypnosis can double the success of IVF treatment, researchers have claimed. A team from Soroka University, Israel found 28% of women in the group who were hypnotised became pregnant, compared to 14% of those who were not. The study of 185 women was presented to the European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology conference in Berlin. But other experts said the research failed to account for key differences between the two groups.
The Israeli researchers were looking to see if hypnosis could make the embryo transfer stage of IVF more successful. During this stage, the embryo is transferred into the womb. However, if the womb is contracting, it can affect the chances of the transplant being a success. It was hoped hypnotherapy could help women relax and therefore improve the chances of success. Women undergoing IVF were assessed to see if they were suitable to be hypnotised. Eighty-nine women were then given hypnosis while their embryos were implanted. Some underwent more than one cycle of IVF treatment. Ninety-six other women underwent embryo transfers without hypnosis. All received one cycle each. Dr Eliahu Levitas, who led the research, told the conference: "Embryo transfer is known to be a stressful for patients, and it may be that the procedure is the peak of their stress in IVF. Hypnosis may be related to a tranquilising effect. Performing embryo transfer under hypnosis may significantly contribute to an increased clinical pregnancy rate."
But experts said the study failed to take into account key differences between the group which would have a major influence on their chances of conceiving. On average, women in the non-hypnosis group had been trying to conceive for 7.4 years, compared to 4.7 years for those who did receive hypnosis. Dr Francois Shenfield, of University College London Hospital said: "One of the very important confounding factors in this field is the duration of infertility. The longer a couple have been trying to conceive, the less likely they are to conceive spontaneously, and with technical help."
Posted by: tipper ||
06/29/2004 10:45:50 AM ||
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#4
I just couldn't stand to read it. klinton's such a self centered son-of-a-bitch, it turns me off. He's the kind of guy I used to beat the hell out of on Friday and Saturday nights, when I was younger. A big fat "plastic" phony bastard.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
06/29/2004 11:51 Comments ||
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#5
as the muckster might say: Ima suspicious.
Think Clinton has to post on blogspot? His publisher wouldn't have a webpage for his book as promotion? Ima feel my leg getting pulled :-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/29/2004 12:04 Comments ||
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#6
Good to know the man might have a soul.
Depends on what he means by feeling "bad". If it has anything to do with his "legacy" and how he'd like people to remember him and his time in office, then he still doesn't understand the gravity of his misdeeds.
#7
Ima with Frank (BTW, FG, you are being especially hilarious today!)
I'm so sure Bill has a blog--he can't use a computer.
He can't even work an ATM machine.
He wrote out the book in long hand on legal pads.
Posted by: Jen ||
06/29/2004 12:58 Comments ||
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#5
I once heard where tyson was asked to use "European", in a sentence. He said; "We were out riding around drinking beer and stopped to take a leak. The next thing I know, I look down and European on my shoe."
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
06/29/2004 11:38 Comments ||
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#6
good! he is get what he deserve! im live in catskill for three years back in late 80's and early 90's and my ex is used to deliver papers to him house. he never tip and is have nasty tempered shar-pays in him yard. then he block main street with him jaguar to flirt with teen-age girls. about time someone is stick a boot up him ass. his big painting at town hall in catskill is used to get me sick evrytime i am see it. >:(
#11
He's got an actual fight coming up in a few weeks. I'll make the bold prediction that purse money is gone in two weeks, unless Don King bilks it all first.
#12
MAN!!.... It's almost painful to read anything written by muck4doo. Me think him need go skool sew him lern how two rite. Oar at lest lern how too speke.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
06/29/2004 14:09 Comments ||
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#13
feel the pain and find you other cheek! feel them pain petey! feel them pain! :p
dont lissen anything i am say cuz all of it is true.
#15
All of this could have been avoided if Tyson hadn't pissed off the IRS so much. Iron Mike should never have tried to write off Evander Holyfield's ears as a "business lunch."
If Tyson is hard up for dough, he should supplement his diet of children and ears with a nice vegetable garden.
Posted by: Chris W. ||
06/29/2004 17:26 Comments ||
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#17
mouth4doodoo, go two skule an git a ejukashun. Thn mabee we kan unnerstan u mo bedder. Thee ke too komunikashun is ejukashun. Sew, go git lernd...thn gitt bak two mee.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
06/29/2004 20:07 Comments ||
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From The Sun Newspaper On Line
Sick footage of Muslim children re-enacting the barbaric beheading of hostages in Iraq has been put on Abu Hamzaâs website. The film starts with a masked boy of about nine menacingly brandishing a wooden sword as he screams demands into the camera. In front of him kneels a younger lad, posing as a helpless hostage, who is roughly gripped by the neck. The young executioner then slowly drags his wooden blade across the throat of the small child. Another boy and a girl pretending to guard the hostage yell in delight as he is slaughtered. ...
The hate-filled kids laugh with glee as they act out the execution in the style of their al-Qaeda heroes. One masked child, no more than eight years old, proudly stands guard over the hostage gripping his wooden weapon. He excitedly joins in the killing by pretending to plunge his sword into the neck of the victim. A girl aged about ten smiles broadly for the camera as she holds her own sword and also uses it to strike the mock victim.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
06/29/2004 10:42:57 PM ||
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EFL
A court has sentenced Peruâs former spy chief Vladimiro Montesinos to 15 years in prison on charges that he paid television station owners millions of dollars to run favorable news about ex-President Alberto Fujimori. I thought that was an acceptable practice in South America. Chavez is different though. He uses the state-run media for his propaganda and intercepts the cash from the state-owned oil company before it reaches the bank (where the legislature might spend it.) Democracy Chavista-style might be called Maoism someplace else.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 9:14:36 PM ||
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Is there anything this man canât do?
South Koreaâs Pyeonghwa (Peace) Motors Corporation plans to stage an inter-Korean golf game next month in the Northâs capital city, Pyongyang, company officials say. "We have agreed with North Korean authorities to hold a friendly golf competition between the two Koreas from July 30 to Aug. 5 at a golf course in Pyongyang," said an official at Pyeonghwa Motors, which has started a business venture in North Korea. Fortunately for all entrants, North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il will not be playing. If the official government media is to be believed, Kim is easily the greatest golfer, the world has ever seeen. Heâd better be if they know whatâs good for them.
Pyongyang media say North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il enjoys golf, having shot multiple holes-in-one during his first try at the game. He reportedly aced five holes and finished 38 under par on the golf course. The "Great Leader" routinely shoots three or four holes-in-one per round, the government-controlled media reported. Nice round. Thatâs better then even... Clinton. This isnât miniature golf, right?
The event, to be dubbed a "golf game for peaceful unification of Korea," will be attended by South Koreaâs top 15 female golfers, including LPGA players, 30 businesspersons and 20 singers and movie stars, the official said. From the Northâs side, eight female amateur players and dozens of government officials as well as foreign diplomats in Pyongyang would also take part in the friendly game, he said. "They will compete in a 36-hole [competition] for the prize money of 100 million Won ($86,000)," the official said. Park Sang-Kwon, the companyâs president, was in Pyongyang to work out the details, he said. North Korea has only one 18-hole golf course in Pyongyang. The Northâs media have said the 7,000-meter (7,700-yard) course is "in full line with international standards." The course, built in the mid-1980s by North Korean businessmen based in Japan, "bustled with Pyongyang citizens, overseas Koreans and foreigners," the Northâs official Korean Central News Agency said. Oh, Iâm sure itâs "bustling".
Surrounded by a forest and a scenic lake, golfers can enjoy collecting plants and boating during breaks, it said. "The course is not bad. North Koreans seemed to keep it well-managed," said a Pyeonghwa Motors official who has frequently traveled to the North. The former greenskeeperâs buried in one of the bunkers. Itâs a motivator.
Kim Dong-Wook, general secretary at South Koreaâs Golf Association, said golf is almost nonexistent in the North. "We believe there are no professional golfers," he said. Outside their country, North Korean golfers have yet to make a mark. Probably because theyâre too busy eating the fairways.
Posted by: tu3031 ||
06/29/2004 8:45:27 AM ||
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#1
I'm betting that the term fairways well defended by bunkers has a whole different meaning in North Korea.
#3
But they're bringing the elite, who don't have to look at the forest and think "All-You-Can-Eat Buffet!"
And I've full confidence that Kim shot five holes-in-one. After his ball flew off the course, he pulled out his pistol and put a bullet right through the hole, on his first try!
Posted by: The Doctor ||
06/29/2004 10:41 Comments ||
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#4
Fortunately for all entrants, North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il will not be playing.
Truer words were never written.
EFL - notice the tie-in to the NZ problem menu from yesterday.
MELBOURNEâS problem packs of bayside rats have acquired a dangerous new appetite for car cables. Not content emptying seaside cafes of customers and sending families running from beaches, rats in the City of Kingston are now snacking under car bonnets and turning residentsâ vehicles into death traps.
Braeside woman Megan Michelis was horrified to discover rats had gnawed large holes in the wires, accelerator cables, and battery casing in her car. She lives in fear that rat-related damage will lead her to have an accident while driving her daughters around. "My kids are in the car every day. Iâm supposed to check under the bonnet daily to make sure itâs safe to drive. But I donât know what Iâm looking for," she said. Her husbandâs car, a new $60,000 Prado, has also been chewed into disrepair by hungry vermin. She is angry that Kingston council refuses to play pied piper to her familyâs rat problem. "I pay rates and theyâre not willing to bait. It comes across that the rats have more rights than us," she said. "I told a lady at the council that there was a plague and she said, âItâs not a plague, thereâs just a large number of ratsâ."
The City of Kingston council recognises a rise in suburban rat sightings within its borders, but does not regard Ms Michelisâs Waterways home near Braeside as a problem area. Ms Michelis said the council told her if bait was laid without an environmental report being concluded, innocent possums could die. But the Waterways resident denies there are any possums near her home. "Thereâs only tiny trees here because itâs a new estate. Weâve never seen a possum," she said. "Weâve had rabbits, foxes and rats, but no possums. And anyway, theyâre willing to kill people in cars, but not kill a possum?"
Ms Michelis said she and her husband first saw a rat scuttling up a pipe in their housing estate four months ago. Since then, they have seen rats across the road from their house and regularly hear them running across their roof. They regard the rat problem in Waterways as caused by the large numbers of rats on the foreshore finding their way into the estates. But the council is adamant its procedures are necessary and baiting on demand is not the answer. "When youâre baiting things you kill things," council spokesman Mike Petit said. "Somebodyâs got to assess what the impact is going to be on the area. You have to balance cables in someoneâs car with the needs of the environment."
That's a new one. Just how much does the environment need swarms of rats?
Mr Petit said the result of the councilâs investigation of Ms Michelisâs complaint may be council giving her the number for a pest controller. The rise in rats in bayside suburbs is believed to result from low rainfall. In wetter years, numbers of sewer rats would drown in seasonal downpours. Just bait the little buggers with a plate of vegamite sandwiches, and have the wrist rocket at the ready - hey, its not a firearm. Leave the hungry possums alone though as I donât think they like the taste of AUG 9 cable jacketing.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 4:26:54 AM ||
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The Olympic torch was passed on to the southern German city of Munich on Tuesday for the first time since the terrorism-marred 1972 Games. The torch, which was in Rome the previous day, was brought to Munichâs Olympic Stadium in ceremonies attended by more than 1,000 people. The torch is to be run some 48 kilometres through the city in a relay involving 124 personalities from Germanyâs sports, entertainment and business sectors, culminating in ceremonies later on at the main Marienplatz square in downtown Munich. After Munich, the next stop for the Olympic torch will be the German capital Berlin, site of the 1936 Olympics, as it makes its way towards 13 August opening ceremony of the 2004 games in Athens. Oh well, Berlin... I was a kid then and remember when the crowds annoyed Hitler by cheering for the black runner Jesse Owens, who won four gold medals.
The 1972 Munich games have gone down in history as the first major international sports event to be the target of terrorism. Palestinian gunmen entered the virtually unguarded Olympic village, killing two Israeli athletes and taking 9 more hostage to press the release of 200 Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. 32 years already, and it seems like yesterday._
Later, the other nine Israelis were killed, along with five of the terrorists and one policeman in a bloody shootout at an airport outside Munich. It was an awful blunder since nobody was prepared for a thing like that. I will never forgive the killers. I hope a similar (or worse) nightmare can be avoided in Athens. I attended the mourning ceremony in the stadium. The skies were weeping after a week of oh so sunny, peaceful and serene Olympics that had shown the world a new better Germany. I remember Avery Brundageâs famous words: "The Games Must Go On." Yes, but the fight against terror must go on as well.
The Olympic flame was lit 25 March in ancient Olympia for the August 13 opening ceremony of the Athens Games, which run until 29 August. For the first time the 78,000-kilometres relay included an international leg, featuring 33 cities (among the all previous Olympic host cities) 5 June â 4 July.
Posted by: True German Ally ||
06/29/2004 5:55:33 PM ||
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Long multiple-book-review piece by an American expat living in Norway. Go read it all; Iâm excerpting just a bit here to get your enthusiasm worked up to a frenzy. Hat tip: Brothers Judd.
I moved from the U.S. to Europe in 1998, and Iâve been drawing comparisons ever since. . . . I was tempted at one point to write a book lamenting Americansâ anti-intellectualismâtheir indifference to foreign languages, ignorance of history, indifference to academic achievement, susceptibility to vulgar religion and trash TV, and so forth. On point after point, I would argue, Europe had us beat.
Yet as my weeks in the Old World stretched into months and then years, my perceptions shifted. Yes, many Europeans were book loversâbut which countryâs literature most engaged them? Many of them revered educationâbut to which countryâs universities did they most wish to send their children? (Answer: the same country that performs the majority of the worldâs scientific research and wins most of the Nobel Prizes.) Yes, American television was responsible for drivel like The Ricki Lake Showâbut Europeans, I learned, watched this stuff just as eagerly as Americans did (only to turn around, of course, and mock it as a reflection of American boorishness). No, Europeans werenât Bible-thumpersâbut the Continentâs ever-growing Muslim population, I had come to realize, represented even more of a threat to pluralist democracy than fundamentalist Christians did in the U.S. (Given that the "threat" posed to pluralist democracy by "fundamentalist Christians" is essentially zero, thatâs not exactly hard . . . okay, Iâll shut up now.)
And yes, more Europeans were multilingualâbut then, if each of the fifty states had its own language, Americans would be multilingual, too. Iâd marveled at Norwegiansâ newspaper consumption; but what did they actually read in those newspapers?
That this was, in fact, a crucial question was brought home to me when a travel piece I wrote for the New York Times about a weekend in rural Telemark received front-page coverage in Aftenposten, Norwayâs newspaper of record. Not that my articleâs contents were remotely newsworthy; its sole news value lay in the fact that Norway had been mentioned in the New York Times. "Look, Olaf, we are famous!"
"Ach, Svend, that is nothing. Now Wall Street Journal âmiddle column,â that would be impressive."
It was astonishing. And even more astonishing was what happened next: the owner of the farm hotel at which Iâd stayed, irked that Iâd made a point of his want of hospitality, got his revenge by telling reporters that Iâd demanded McDonaldâs hamburgers for dinner instead of that most Norwegian of delicacies, reindeer steak. Though this was a transparent fabrication (his establishment was located atop a remote mountain, far from the nearest golden arches), the press lapped it up. . . .
For me, this startling episode raised a few questions. Why had the Norwegian press given such prominent attention in the first place to a mere travel article? Why had it then been so eager to repeat a cartoonish lie? Were these actions reflective of a society more serious, more thoughtful, than the one Iâd left? Or did they reveal a culture, or at least a media class, that was so awed by America as to be flattered by even its slightest attentions but that was also reflexively, irrationally belligerent toward it?
Over time, then, these things came into focus for me. Then came September 11. Briefly, Western European hostility toward the U.S. yielded to sincere, if shallow, solidarity ("We are all Americans"). But the enmity soon re-established itself (a fact confirmed for me daily on the websites of the many Western European newspapers I had begun reading online). With the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, it intensified. Yet the endlessly reiterated claim that George W. Bush "squandered" Western Europeâs post-9/11 sympathy is nonsense. The sympathy was a blip; the anti-Americanism is chronic. . . .
He goes on to review anti-American writings from both sides of the pond, as well as a few counter-examples (such as Jean-François Revel), and to spend a fair bit of time discussing the historical animosity of Euro-elites to the very idea of America. Iâve got my quibbles with a sentence or two, but overall it is an excellent article.
I am especially curious to hear reactions from our European contingent (JFM, TGA, Aris, and all). The comment box is all yours, gentlemen!
Posted by: Mike ||
06/29/2004 12:42:10 PM ||
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#1
American virtues Iâd always taken for granted, or even disdainedâamong them a lack of self-seriousness, a grasp of irony and self-deprecating humor, a friendly informality with strangers, an unashamed curiosity, an openness to new experience, an innate optimism, a willingness to think for oneself and speak oneâs mind and question the accepted way of doing things. (One reason why Europeans view Americans as ignorant is that when we donât know something, weâre more likely to admit it freely and ask questions.)
That mirrors my experience in the educational arena in Europe. Appearing to not know is something greatly feared. Topic of the day...
#2
oh, uff da, again. :) Reindeer steak...
Shrimp and salmon are more quintessentially Norsk to me, but then my ancestors were from the coastal regions. Hard to beat shrimp that was just swimming in deep, cold water just a few minutes before; add a little garlic-mayo, a few thin slices of cucumber on some fresh bread... now that's a sammich. Well, okay, an appetizer, anyway.
Posted by: Mike ||
06/29/2004 15:21 Comments ||
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#4
Don't forget the lutefisk.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
06/29/2004 16:13 Comments ||
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#5
Don't forget the lutefisk.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
06/29/2004 16:13 Comments ||
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#6
I am not a Euro but I spent a couple of years there during the Reagan Administration (talk about hate!) so my info may be dated. Well I too first bonded then had a falling out with the 'Euro-Mystique.' When I was first stationed in Greece I wanted all things Greek or European. I drank Mataxa (5-star), learned some Greek, and always ceded to Euro political values. After my initial culture bath, I began to notice some strange things about my European cousins (first in Germany then in Greece). A person who was lecturing me on how bad America was on a bus, got out at one stop and walked right into McDonalds. I noticed in Greece that they broadcast many shows IN ENGLISH with Greek subtitles. I watched MASH, Star Trek, and Dukes of Hazard in Greece long before cable or satellite came into play. Allthe while these shows were deemed âto offensiveâ to show on AFRTS. My Greek friends were always asking if I could get them American items (Booze, Cigarettes, coffee, radios, you name it). Ands while I was stationed in what is called the Birthplace of Democracy, I met many Commies and their like. Of course they would never gain a significant political foothold, but they were an oxymoron to the country. Finally, the cultured and ever so holier-than-thou British cousin showed that they were every bit as perverted and depraved when vacationing. They may have coined the phrase âWhat happens on holiday, stays on holiday.â Also a lot of those European women loved being around Americans! They may hate us but they love/hate us at the same time and you know what? I love/hate them right back.
#7
Misses the story completely. The big story is how similar the comments and views are between the looney Left and Zarqawi, OBL and their merry band of terrorists -- strikingly similiar.
Posted by: Capt America ||
06/29/2004 17:40 Comments ||
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#8
Lutefisk
Well... let's not push it. :) Seriously I guess that is THE most quintessentially Norwegian food there is. I'll eat it on Christmas Eve because my fiance'e is actually 100% Norwegian. Other than that, I wouldn't go out of my way.
(The article itself is quite good. I read the whole thing this afternoon. I wonder how LOML will react. She reads Aftenpost regularly...)
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder congratulated the Iraqi interim government Monday on assuming power in Baghdad. A government spokesman said the German charge dâaffaires in Baghdad, Bernd Erbel, had handed interim Premier Iyad Allawi a congratulatory telegram from Schroeder. At the foreign ministry in Berlin, a spokeswoman said that for Iraq, the power handover was "an important step on the road back to the circle of independent nations".
Posted by: Seafarious ||
06/29/2004 12:26:44 AM ||
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The Liberal Party lost its outright control of Parliament on Monday but easily won the largest share of seats and will now try to lead Canada's first minority government in 25 years. Though dogged by scandal, and pressed by a newly unified Conservative Party, the Liberals prevailed by largely holding their ground in Ontario, the most populous province. Projections by the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. suggested the Liberals might win roughly 140 seats overall, short of the 155 need to singlehandedly control the House of Commons, but far more than 90 to 100 seats the Conservatives were projected to win. In Quebec, the Bloc Quebecois, which advocates independence for the French-speaking province, did well at the Liberals' expense. The Bloc increased its share of Quebec's 75 seats from 33 to more than 50.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/29/2004 12:24:06 AM ||
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#1
I hope Quebec finally gets its wish. I like too many people in Canada to boycott our Northern neighbor, but if Quebec was it's own country, thwarting their aims would be so much easier to rationalize.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 3:16 Comments ||
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#2
By far the biggest losers yesterday were the polling companies. They should have called me instead. I had been predicting a Liberal sweep in Ontario and especially the greater Toronto area. Just days before the election the poll numbers showed the Liberals and Conservatives in a tight race, virtually even. And I believed them. What utter bullshit it turned out to be.
The Final seat count (pending recounts) is: Liberals 135, Conservatives 99, Bloc Quebecois 54, NDP (socialists) 19, Other 1. With 155 needed for a majority.
This is about as bad as it gets in Canada. The NDP will be a royal pain. Expect increased taxes to pay for all the bullshit coming our way. Time to get out.
And we can expect another separation referendum in Quebec soon.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/29/2004 12:45 Comments ||
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#3
Rafael, let Quebec go, but ensure they take their share of the national debt with them.
#4
If I am not mistaken, this could be a tie, if the Bloc and "other" throws their support in with the Conservatives for a vote of non-confidence.
The Liberals need to appoint a Speaker from their ranks, so it's 153[Liberals + NDP] to 153 {Conservatives + Bloc], with "other" holding the tie breaking vote. CBC said that minority governments don't have a long life in Canada. They typically last 16 months before being forced to call another election.
I would not worry too much about Quebec. They are a "have-not" province and have been for many years. They are firmly imprinted to the federal government's teat. That's just posturing to get more $ from the feds. Canada should call Quebec's bluff-they are going nowhere, puhleaze. It's Alberta that Canada needs to worry about. I think this was a real slap to Alberta's face. It's one of the 2 have provinces in Canada, and it's per capita transfer of payments to the other 8 have not provinces is almost twice that of Ontario, which is the other have province. The Albertan separatist party got official party status in May. Read the comments on "active topics" of www.freedominion.ca, which is the Cdn. counterpart to Free Republic. Or go to the Alberta Separatist Party page explaining the reasons for Alberta pulling out of Canada: http://www.separationalberta.com/whyseparation.asp
Quebec needs Canada, but Alberta does not need Canada. Financially, Alberta would be much better off WITHOUT Canda. Also, for a first time in a while, Conservatives dominated all Western provinces, even socialist inclined Saskatchewan and Manitoba and BC.
As for your comment that the NDP will be a big pain-how will the NDP-Liberal compadre mindset change now from the Chretien reigns. Even though the LPOC were not forced to co-operate with the NDP, they almost always did-gay marriage, hate speech law, Kyoto, gun registry, favoring the Palestinians, visible minority quotas for government hiring, pro UN genuflecting 24/7...the only change now are the names of the leaders of the NDP and LPOC.. It's the socialist good old buddies who have won again and the NDP are just a more red hue than the LPOC who are definitely pink.
Posted by: rex ||
06/29/2004 13:32 Comments ||
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#5
If Quebec goes, it takes 99% of the high tech industry with it. Actually, if Quebec leaves, that would effectively be the end for Canada.
Atlantic Canada would probably form their own nation, or perhaps join Quebec. The west starting with Manitoba would definitely seek separation from Liberal Ontario (Ontario would always have more seats than the west). That leaves miserable Ontario on its own.
And I wouldn't be keen on counting Ontario as the 51st state. You'd quickly get an upset stomach.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/29/2004 13:38 Comments ||
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#6
we'd rather have the west and the northern areas. Oil, gas, coal, cattle, lumber, and better people
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/29/2004 13:42 Comments ||
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#7
The NDP will be a pain because they will side with the Liberals, but in return they will inject their own socialism into everything that gets passed. The Bloc already have said they will vote on a case by case basis (which means whatever benefits Quebec). This was another decisive Liberal victory, thanks to Ontario. In the west the resentment will only get bigger.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/29/2004 13:46 Comments ||
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#9
This election result is better than a Liberal majority government, but still bad news for Canada. It appears that Canada is becoming more disfunctional. People who are net consumers of Government largesse are voting to increase taxes on the net contributors to the Government coffers. This a metastable situation that could lead to the dissolution of Canada.
The Western provinces have much more in common with the American Northwest than they do with Ontario and points east. We should welcome them into the US. However, I'm afraid that the Democrats in the Senate would have the vapors at the prospect of admitting more conservative states (and senators) into the Republic. (a situation not unlike the pre-Civil War posturing over balancing the admission of slave and non-slave states). In any event the next 10 - 15 years will be interesting.
#10
This election result is better than a Liberal majority government.
I disagree. The NDP will now play an important role, which is not good. Even if the Bloc votes entirely with the Conservatives, it will not be enough.
This is a bigger blow to the west than it appears on the surface. Not only did the east reject the Conservatives, but they rejected a western leader of the Conservatives (Harper is from Alberta, though interestingly he was born in Toronto).
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/29/2004 14:31 Comments ||
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#11
If Quebec goes, it takes 99% of the high tech industry with it.
Show me the stats on that, Rafael. Most of the high-ech is in Ontario and a bit in Alberta. If Quebec had such a big grip on high-tech, they'd be a have province, wouldn't they? Quebec will NEVER, NEVER leave. I was on business in Vancouver the night of the political party leaders' debates. Everything that the Bloc leader spouted off was how come Ottawa doesn't give us more $ for daycare, for healthcare, for back rubs...interspersed with how Quebec is a separate sovereign entity BUT we need more $. Give me a break. That's always been Quebec's same old same oldsong. We want to be a sovereign nation but we want to stay on the bean line. The only time Quebec would separate is if they saw Alberta bogging off. Then Quebec would get on bended knee to join the USA, inspite of the fact that French Canadians despise Americans. Quebec looks to where the $ is.
Alberta would not necessarily join America. It might try to do a Puerto Rico thingie maybe first. Maybe Alberta might convince BC to join its independence movement?
Oh, Rafael, knock yourself out trying to pretend that the NDP will have more sway than it had before. Puhleaze, the LPOC have been collaborators with the NDP since the late 1970's when that scuzball Trudeau held hands with Ed Broadbent from the NDP to formulate and ram the Charter of Rights through. Then Chretien continued to hold hands under the table with the NDP. Just look at the list of legislation I gave you that the LPOC and NDP voted like one party. And Paul Martin's best friend and mentor who has bought a condo in Ottawa, btw, is Maurice Strong-billionaire socialist who was the under secraetary to Kofi Annan, was the architect of the Kyoto Accord, and has long standing ties to China. Rafael, the NDP and LPOC are different faces of the SAME coin. Wake up.
Posted by: rex ||
06/29/2004 15:26 Comments ||
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#12
Are there significant "leave-Canada-enter-USA" movements in Alberta and other Canadian provinces?
#14
If you speak French, and don't admit you are an American, I have no doubt you would be fine in Quebec. Btw, the most vigorous anti-American incidents after the Iraq War started occurred in Quebec and the most vocal resistence to Canada sending troops as a coalition partner with the USA to Iraq came from Quebec.
Anti-American sentiment has existed in Quebec for a long time, but started to show more of its ugliness under Trudeau and Chretien's reigns. I think it's because of the loyalty Quebec feels to France and Quebec typically mirrors France's au courant political attitude to America.
Also, I think anti-American sentiment has become more visible in recent years due to the fact that Quebec takes in alot of Muslim immigrants/refugees. Montreal has a significant Muslim population in fact. Because of America's support of Israel, many Quebecers are not happy with the USA for obvious reasons.
Posted by: rex ||
06/29/2004 17:24 Comments ||
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#15
If Quebec had such a big grip on high-tech, they'd be a have province, wouldn't they? Quebec will NEVER, NEVER leave.
They almost left the last time they had a referendum (1995). The results were 50.58 against, 49.42 for. That's about as close as it gets. They now have the same mandate as they did in 1995 (54 seats in 1995, 54 seats today) for another try at separation. This time they may succeed.
Everything that the Bloc leader spouted off was how come Ottawa doesn't give us more $
Of course. That's his job as head of a separatist party. His assertion is that Ottawa is short changing Quebec, and in turn his solution is separation.
The NDP had no sway seeing as they only had a couple of seats. This time around, the Liberals do not have a majority. They need the NDP.
Looking at the NDP platform, it looks of a magnitude worse than the Liberals. At least the Liberals gave us a balanced budget. The NDP is screaming for deficits. God help us.
Are there significant "leave-Canada-enter-USA" movements in Alberta and other Canadian provinces?
Not yet.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/29/2004 17:31 Comments ||
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#16
Rafael, I'm aware of the referendum-it's all bluff-Quebec just wanted more goodies and they won the bluff. If Canada said "go" and shut about it, Quebec would not do it. What assets do they have except the St. Lawrence seaway and that's not saying much. Their main asset is blackmail and the unsaid "worry" that Canadians fear[outside of BC and Alberta]that parts of Canada [BC and Alberta]would become Yankee if Quebec "went." You think America would want Quebec? No Eastern Canadians, most of whom live like parasites off the treasury of Alberta worry that THEY would be left behind while BC and Alberta fell into the hands of evil America and their golden goose would be whistling Dixie.
At least the Liberals gave us a balanced budget. The NDP is screaming for deficits. God help us Puhleaze, you are truly naive, Rafael. Go read some research on fiscal, economic policy done by the Fraser Institue, son.
For example, here's a recent one:
"Canadian Government Debt 2004: A Guide to the Indebtedness of Canada and the Provinces" Link ...Largely due to increases in program obligations, in 2001/02 federal, provincial, and local liabilities added up to $180,421 for each Canadian taxpayer or $87,291 for each Canadian citizen.
Are there significant "leave-Canada-enter-USA" movements in Alberta and other Canadian provinces? Not yet.
Read this morning's article in the Globe and Mail. Things are not happy in Alberta. Link
"Western Tories greet Grit win with disappointment, disgust" CALGARY -- A fourth straight Liberal mandate, but by a larger minority than expected, left key Alberta Conservatives shaking their heads in disbelief -- some in disgust -- last night.
Ted Morton, a University of Calgary political scientist who helped shape Conservative Party policy, looked on coolly when asked what caused the collapse in what was expected to be a major breakthrough in Ontario.
"I haven't understood Ontario in the past and I don't understand it now," he said.
The senator in waiting, who has advocated putting firewalls up around Alberta to protect it from intrusions from Ottawa, was too angry to put more of a spin on it. Meanwhile, re-elected Conservative MPs were trying to keep a lid on western anger...
Ted Morton is a guy to watch. He is very eloquent and has a large following in Alberta. Don't kid yourself, Rafael - Morton is thinking separatism for Alberta as we speak.
Posted by: rex ||
06/29/2004 18:01 Comments ||
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#17
I seriously doubt that the western provinces, if they left Canada, would become part of the U.S. right away. A Puerto-Rico like commonwealth status might be one solution, but I suspect the western provinces would form a confederation of some sort and attempt to go their own way. BC and Alberta are very prosperous, Sas and Manitoba reasonably so, and Yukon would go along because it has no choice.
I could be wrong: California and Texas became states without a long intervening period as territories. So it's possible, but not likely.
And the merest hint that the US was considering admitting one or more province into the Union would precipitate a huge crisis. The rest of Canada would go nuts, there would be a lot of rancor, and it might well spill into the rest of our international affairs.
I love Canada and the Canadians -- great friends of mine in Vancouver and Winnipeg. But I don't see them becoming Americans if Canada falls apart.
Posted by: Steve White ||
06/29/2004 18:19 Comments ||
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#18
We could incorporate the Yukon into Alaska. It already fits like a glove into the W141 deg merdidan line that separates the two entities. Besides, Yukon folks are neat people.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/29/2004 18:38 Comments ||
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#19
As I said in my #11 post, I too believe that Alberta might first establish itself as a Puerto Rico thingie if it were to separate. BUT keep in mind that there are a significant number of Americans in Calgary[oil industry] so joining the USA may be entertained as well.
What I meant about Quebec playing on the unstated fear of eastern Canadians that if Quebec left, the West might fall into the hands of evil America-it's a real fear of the Eastern provinces, particularly the Maritimes who like Quebec have nothing to offer anyone and couldn't function without transfer payments.
Incidently, SW, you are aware that BC is a have-not province aren't you? In addition to federal taxes, there's a thingie called transfer payments from prosperous provinces to poor provinces, and only Alberta and Ontario are dinged for their profits that the feds take and share with the other 8 provinces. BC is a taker, but I agree BC has "potential." B.C.'s economy was ruined because of a reckless NDP government who was in power before the current Liberals. Also, BC's timber industry has suffered tremendous unemployment and setbacks due to NAFTA decisions that found it was too heavily subsidized by the government.
I love Candians too, I have family there. I do not particularly care for the chauvinist and greedy politics of Quebec and Ontario.
Canada unfortunately has fallen to the major danger of democracies as expressed by Professor Tytler-the USA is moving in the same direction, btw. The good professor said democracies decline when people figure out they can vote in their own benefits. "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependency;
from dependency back again to bondage." Source.
Written by Scottish jurist and historian Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813), nearly two centuries ago while the thirteen original United States of America were still colonies of Great Britain. At the time Tytler was writing of the decline and fall of the Athenian Republic over two thousand years before.
Posted by: rex ||
06/29/2004 18:53 Comments ||
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#20
hey Rexxxxxxx! use the link button! Or tinyurl.com
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/29/2004 18:56 Comments ||
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#21
Frank, I have tried the link button amd most times it does not work. Usely my link is "disappeared." So that's why I cut and paste the url, so folks can pursue the article if they want. Btw, I put the url in bold so it does not get "lost" in my comments. Is the url in bold bad for some reason?
I think it was unfortunate for Canada that the conservative party did not win. It is also most unfortunate for America, too, because Stephen Harper was a smart guy with no ties to the Canadian power elite per Paul Martin. Stephen Harper would have been very helpful with regards to our national security. It's funny, Americans have more interest in elections in countries all around the world, but there's little interest in the elections of Canada or Mexico, our next door neighbors, who have major roles in helping us /refugee Liberal/NDP government will not be assets to us. And as long as Mexico elects someone from the 50 families who control power and money there, the Mexican government will continue to encourage Pedro to immigrate to the USA to get a job and send $ home. And with Pedro could come other folks who are not looking for welfare perks or a job...
Posted by: rex ||
06/29/2004 19:27 Comments ||
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#22
I still think we should make Alberta an offer it can't refuse.
Let Quebec go back to the frogs, the rest can join us as a state.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
06/29/2004 19:34 Comments ||
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#24
"First, governments have begun to balance their books and some have started paying down their debt." From the Fraser Institute link.
How does this negate my statement about the Liberals balancing the budget???????????
Now read the NDP platform and tell me with a straight face they can keep their promises with a balanced budget, "each and every year". Bullshit.
And regarding Quebec, it's always been the dream of separatists to get Quebec out of Canada, regardless of any transfer payments, regardless of whether this might actually be bad for them or not. I don't see why anything should change now.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/29/2004 19:39 Comments ||
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#25
Rafael, why does the rest of Canada hang on to Quebec? From the day that Wolfe defeated Montcalm on the Plains of Abraham, Quebec has been a thorn in the side of Anglo Canada. The only thing they have worth keeping is HydroQuebec, surely not enough to justify the billions pumped into Quebec. Is it a masochistic streak that makes you waste millions of dollars on biligualism? Let them go and get on with your lives, God knows you don't need them.
#26
Alberta leaves, they take BC, Yukon, Saskatchewan, and NW Territory (And maybe Manitoba and Nunavit) with them?
That sounds like a viable nation. Good Natural resources, good pacific ports, stable population, decent hi-tech (In Vancouver), good center for the government in Alberta, well defined borders and socially and culturally cohesion.
They ought to do it. Let Ottowa and Quebec deal with each other.
Probably because Canada would fall to pieces, like I mentioned in #5 above. I can't see Atlantic Canada staying, with the way they're dissatisfied with Ottawa's mismanagement of the fisheries industry (or the perceived mismanagement). New Brunswick is officially bilingual anyway, they might as well join Quebec. And since yesterday the west really hates Ontario.
Quebec hasn't really been a thorn recently. Not since the Bloc haven't had a strong mandate to push through their agenda. They do now. Jacques Parizeau, premier of Quebec in 1995, meant what he said. "We want our country and we will have it", "Until next time".
For some nationalistic reason I don't want Quebec to leave either. Though I would respect their decision if they chose to go.
I don't know why the idea of a "distinct society" for Quebec was so reviled. If it meant that Canada remained whole, who cares if Quebec had their own little language laws, etc? I don't live there and it wouldn't bother me.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/29/2004 22:56 Comments ||
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#29
I know little to nothing about Canadian specifics... but my instictive take on separatism on an ideological level is this: If a state were to break away from Canada to join the USA, I'd not care singificantly one way or another but most probably think such a thing more positive than negative -- who knows it might even be the first step to the whole of Canada and USA becoming a single country, which would definitely be positive IMO....
But if a state were to break away from Canada to become independent -- I'd consider that a negative scenario: it'd be the opposite of the direction I've consistently supported, that of the voluntary union of democracies. A breakup of Canada (with the states becoming independent, not being absorbed in the US) would be increasing disunity in the free world.
#30
to Rex: the long URL's screw up the page width big-time, bold isn't bad
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/29/2004 23:40 Comments ||
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#31
Oddly enough Aris, in the event of a positive referendum result, the Quebec separatists would point to the Czech and Slovak model as an example of a civilised separation. If memory serves, that argument has already been used by them.
I can't imagine any province joining the US, even if Canada were to fall apart. Even while I lived in the west (Vancouver), we were told in school that Canadians don't like Americans. I'm sure this will now change to "westerners don't like Ontarians".
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/30/2004 0:26 Comments ||
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#32
BTW, I laughed my head off after this election was over: for the first time in a long while, British Columbia was supposed to play the deciding factor in this election (being one of the last to cast votes). Bullshit! For something like the 4th time in a row the election was already decided by the time the last vote was cast in B.C. And this even with staggered closing times so that all polls close at once, more or less.
Posted by: Rafael ||
06/30/2004 0:40 Comments ||
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#33
Civilised separations can exist. Certainly much better than the uncivilised separations. :-)
#2
The U.N. is still in session, debating that very issue :)
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
06/29/2004 15:50 Comments ||
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#3
Bulls-eye.
However, this deserves commentary:
Never apologize, mister. It's a sign of weakness." â John Wayne as Captain Nathan Brittles
Very interesting cultures-in-contact sidenote-this may be the ONLY time I will agree with critics of America about our cowboy image. I admire what the cowboy as an American icon stands for-hard work, honesty, self-sufficiency, honor, but this notion that we apparently share with the Arabs-that apologizing is sign of weakness-should go the way of the "earth-is-flat" theory. Apologizing is a sign of integrity and self-assurance-you have faith, even when admitting your error-in the value of your person and ideas as well as the value of others.
The leftiest big city on the Left Coast was Clinton country on Monday, with former President Clinton continuing his blockbuster book tour and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton headlining a Democratic fund-raiser where she vowed to defeat the Republicans' "extraordinarily ruthless machine."
Would that they were as ruthless as she thinks.
Headlining an appearance with other Democratic women senators on behalf of Sen. Barbara Boxer, who is up for re-election this year, Hillary Clinton told several hundred supporters -- some of whom had ponied up as much as $10,000 to attend -- to expect to lose some of the tax cuts passed by President Bush if Democrats win the White House and control of Congress.
Money quote:
"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said. "We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
Spoken like a true socialist.
Posted by: Steve ||
06/29/2004 1:42:45 PM ||
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#1
Spoken like a true socialist.
Dammit! You beat me to it! If this doesn't scare the common person, and prove what Hillary and her minions are truly about, I don't know what will.
Why can't they (Bubba and Hill and the other wingnuts) just go away?
#2
Remember this from Bill?: "I'd like to give you that tax cut, but you'd just go out and spend that money" The Dems have sold there souls to the hardcore left. There are no more Dems anymore..just Kool-Aid drinkers.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
06/29/2004 15:34 Comments ||
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#6
that one goes in the archives for safekeeping, and if there's a video, I'd advise putting it up on ebay: Hillary and Rove would alone raise the bids into the millions. Altogether a stupid thing for the world's smartest woman to say - heh heh
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/29/2004 18:55 Comments ||
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#7
Since the odds of the media running with that quote are next to nil, will the Republicans actually use it?
I am questioning whether or not they will because if I can imagine the cries of outrage from the media on the Republicans "reopening the vicious attacks of the 90s on the Clintons", I'm sure that Rove can. :-/
Regardless, I do have to wonder why Hillary let the mask slip so much. Did she think she was safely in "friendly territory" with the coverage of the event, or did she just goof up and let it out?
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
06/29/2004 19:17 Comments ||
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#8
billary's, freudian slip, is showing.
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
06/29/2004 19:44 Comments ||
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#10
Regardless, I do have to wonder why Hillary let the mask slip so much. Did she think she was safely in "friendly territory" with the coverage of the event, or did she just goof up and let it out?
LOTR - I think she actually let it slip. I think she really believed she was in friendly territory, and that Bush is done for, so she just let it out. What I'd like to see is her or any other Dinguscrat explain what she said in the video, if there is one. I'd love to see the, "Oh, what she/I really meant was...."
Barbara -- this is Anon5460. Wasn't sure if I could use the same ID at work or not. The whole Clinton Camp just puts me through the roof. Had to serve under that guy. Horrible.
For what they are about to receive, let us be truly thankful. Amen.
Former President Bill Clinton will be the opening-night attraction of the Democratic convention in Boston next month, kicking off the four-day event with a speech in prime time, just as he did in 2000, party officials said on Monday.
What's the over/under on his speech, two hours?
But the decision to use Mr. Clinton this time came easily, party officials said, unlike the decision four years ago, when some advisers to Vice President Al Gore were ambivalent about giving Mr. Clinton such prominence at the convention. By contrast, some officials said, it is Mr. Gore's role at the convention this year that is still being worked out.
Oh, please, please, please....
Details of the Democratic convention's speaker list began to seep out Monday, after the Republicans announced the lineup for their convention in late August and early September, which will include popular centrists like Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger of California, former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York City and Senator John McCain of Arizona.
Sweet!
Democratic officials said their choreography of the convention reflected a belief that it was one of the most important events of the campaign for Mr. Kerry, who will use it to introduce himself to voters who may be paying close attention for the first time.
"They nominated him?????"
Several officials said that the speaking schedule was still being discussed and that nothing was final; all of them spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they could not be identified because the schedule had not officially been announced. But what is close to certain now, they said, is that Mr. Clinton will speak in prime time on the convention's opening night, July 26; Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts will speak in prime time on July 27; Senator John Kerry's running mate, who has yet to be named, will speak on July 28; and Mr. Kerry will give his acceptance speech on July 29.
Teddy will be at his eye-rolling, spittle spewing best, wonder if he'll stroke out during the speech?
Party and campaign officials said it was also likely that Mr. Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, would have a prominent speaking role at the convention, as could one or more of Mr. Kerry's primary and caucus opponents.
They'll have to let Howling Howard Dean speak, the mob demands it!
The Kerry campaign's comfort level with Mr. Clinton is far greater than was that of Mr. Gore's campaign in 2000, which feared not only that Mr. Clinton would remind voters about the sex scandal that marred his administration, but also that he would overshadow the staid Mr. Gore. Another senior official with Mr. Kerry's campaign said Mr. Clinton had posed more concern for Mr. Gore because Mr. Gore believed it was crucial that he break from his boss and establish his own separate identity, which Mr. Kerry does not need to do.
Bwahahahaha!!!!
Officials at the party and at the campaign said they were certain Mr. Gore would speak at the convention, but not certain which day and whether it would be during the hours of prime time television. Mr. Gore, Democratic officials said, is a powerful figure whose very presence at the convention is expected to remind Democrats of the bitterness they felt in 2000, when Mr. Gore won the popular vote but lost to George W. Bush in the Electoral College.
Insert "Florida" and "Supreme Court" here.
But party officials said they also wanted to be careful to ensure that the convention focused on Mr. Kerry's vision for the future, not the wrongs Democrats felt in the past.
Who are you kidding? The entire theme of this campaign has been "Anyone But Bush".
Donna Brazile, Mr. Gore's campaign manager in 2000, said Mr. Gore should be given a prominent role at the convention precisely because of the fiery oratorical style he had honed in the last couple of years. "He has not only found his voice,'' Ms. Brazile said, "but he has really gone after the Bush administration in ways I don't think the Kerry campaign can go after Bush administration. They should give Al Gore a key position, a prime time speech, and let him roll."
Oh, please do. Popcorn for everyone!
Posted by: Steve ||
06/29/2004 9:11:57 AM ||
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#6
..Oh my Gawd...can you imagine the hissy fits between Teresa, Bill, and Hil? This will be TOO good to pass up, and I haven't watched a convention in decades.
BTW Sefarious - you can NEVER have too much cowbell.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
06/29/2004 12:36 Comments ||
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#11
I remember reading that Sharpie was going to speak - no way will they pull him after making that announcement. The PC mentality is so ingrained it's unthinkable. Besides, Sharpie speaks for all people of color, doesn't he?
excerpted from Mondayâs State Department Daily Press Briefing.
QUESTION: The Vice President of Syria, Mr. Abd Halim Khaddam, he, while he was receiving yesterday the plans of the Iraqi tribes, he told them that Syriaâs doors are widely open from the time that the new government takes place, that Syria would give all the cooperation and would open its doors for anything that would enhance Iraqi well-being and future. Thatâs on one hand. On the other hand, also, if I can move, I need your comment on that and -- MR. ERELI: I donât have any comment on it. QUESTION: Okay. Concerning Mr. Mohammed ElBaradei, he said that Syria has informed him that it is welcoming him and his experts to go into Syria any time, anywhere they want. And also, he said that he is planning to go to Israel in order to try and obtain the Israeli cooperation to also inspect to try to see if he can get to convince the Israelis to inspect their nuclear programs in there.
Is that step from Mr. ElBaradei, has it been talked about here, when he visited with Secretary Powell? And is the U.S. Administration trying to encourage Israel to cooperate with Mr. ElBaradei in this respect? MR. ERELI: That subject was not discussed. I have not seen the Director Generalâs remarks, so I really couldnât comment on them. It is -- our position on Syriaâs weapons programs, I think, is familiar to you, and I really donât have anything new to add to that. QUESTION: Well, actually, a follow up on that. There were some reports over the weekend that Syria was a client of Mr. Khan and the whole Pakistan nuclear ring. Do you have anything on that? MR. ERELI: I donât.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 3:45:51 AM ||
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06/29/2004 04:30 ||
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#1
Excerpt: "We really destroyed our relationship with the Arab world, and we are now in a much weaker position with Iran" -- Joseph Cirincione, director of the non-proliferation project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
Qaddafi apparently hadn't been on the distro on that particular memo. Then again are Libyans Arabs or other?
#2
Condoleezza Rice told "FOX News Sunday" that the United States has been working with the IAEA and European nations to make certain the Iranians know "they only have two choices â to cooperate or face isolation."
#3
I'm sure that last one will come in a flash of *inspiration* . . .
Posted by: The Doctor ||
06/29/2004 10:43 Comments ||
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#4
link header is a bit different than report header..
but fact is iran is a serious threat not only the iraq but to our interests in the region and ultimately our homeland. We have very few choices here. Either confront or backoff. If we backoff we have lost the confidence of the countries in the region (they would side with iran since she would then be calling the shots). If we confront then it will be difficult and bloody but needed. Remember Bush did signal them out as part of the axis of evil, we need to follow through on this.
Posted by: Dan ||
06/29/2004 12:37 Comments ||
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#5
If we confront then it will be difficult and bloody but needed.
It doesn't have to be. Remember, Iran's own citizenry is pretty disillusioned with their mullahs, and they would probably be more than willing to throw off mullah rule themselves without the assistance of external forces. Material and moral support would probably suffice, with anything more at the ready if needed.
#6
eLarson, Libya is Arabic. Arabs Lebanese colonized Tunisia around the time of Homer and later Arab riders conquered all of North Africa on their way up into Europe. They have Berber and Moorish bloodlines but most consider them basically Arabic.
Qaddafi isn't happy with the association though since Arabs have the smell of losers lately.
#8
Angie: He's talking about Phoenicians, who were about as "Lebanese" as Canaanites were "Palestinians", which is to say - maybe there's some blood lineage, but the languages are totally different, religious traditions are totally broken, etc.
As far as I can tell, the Carthaginians overlords of North Africa were a minority, and the vast majority of the locals were non-Semitic folk - Numidians, Berbers, etc. Eastern Libya was settled by Greeks, in pretty much the same relation to the rest of the locals as the Carthaginians across the bay - a city-dwelling overclass dominating the best farmland and the ports, against a barbaroi backcountry.
All that being wildly beside the point, which is that Iran is far less of an Arabic country than modern Libya, as they actually speak Arabic in the latter country, and they mostly don't in Iran.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
06/29/2004 14:39 Comments ||
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#9
#6, #7, #8 - Thanks for clearing up the Moor/Berber/Arab connection. Much appreciated.
Oh. That never even occurred to me, because Arabs are from that peninsula, whereas Phoenicians are from what is now, as you say, Lebanon. Arabs live there now, but not then (at least, not in any numbers). (Or, that is to say, Arab language and culture live there now, whatever the ethnic makeup of the people.)
I was on duty-call in the hospital all yesterday and I was in the ward when I heard the news that Mr. Bremer had already transferred the power to the new government two days ahead of the expected date. I was so happy about this news and I couldnât wait until I finish my tour to celebrate the occasion.
My friends all seemed thrilled and optimistic, yet they seemed to have no interset in celebrating the event. I decided to do something so I asked one of my colleagues to cover for me for an hour; I told him that I have to get something from outside.I directly headed to the nearest bakery and ordered a nice cake and returned to the hospital as fast as I could. On the way, I didnât see any large calibrations but I noticed that the streets were busier than usual and people looked lively and relaxed.
I invited some of my friends, one of us volunteered to get some beverages and we gathered around the cake to celebrate the happy event. I took some pictures but sadly not all the doctors (female mainly) agreed on me posting their pictures and Iâll respect their will.
Some of us were celebrating regaining sovereignty, some were celebrating the end of occupation, others were happy because they think the new government will bring safety and order. I was celebrating a new and a great step towards democracy, but we were all joined by true hope for a better future and by the love we have for Iraq.
After wards we sat for a while discussing different matters. The hall was busy and everyone was chatting and laughing loud. They had Al-Jazeera on (something I never managed to convince them to stop doing). Then suddenly Mr. Bremer appeared on TV reading his last speech before he left Iraq. I approached the TV to listen carefully to the speech, as I expected it to be difficult in the midst of all that noise. To my surprise everyone stopped what they were doing and started watching as attentively as I was.
The speech was impressive and you could hear the sound of a needle if one had dropped it at that time. The most sensational moment was the end of the speech when Mr. Bremer used a famous Arab emotional poem. The poem was for a famous Arab poet who said it while leaving Baghdad. Al-Jazeera had put an interpreter who tried to translate even the Arabic poem which Mr. Bremer was telling in a fair Arabic! âLet this damned interpreter shut up. We want to hear what the man is sayingâ One of my colloquies shouted. The scene was very touching that the guy sitting next to me (who used to sympathize with Muqtada) said âHeâs going to make me cry!â
Then he finished his speech by saying in Arabic,âAâash Al-Iraq, Aâash Al-Iraq, Aâash Al-Iraqâ! (Long live Iraq, Long live Iraq, long live Iraq).
I was deeply moved by this great manâs words but I couldnât prevent myself from watching the effect of his words on my friends who some of them were anti-Americans and some were skeptic, although some of them have always shared my optimism. I found that they were touched even more deeply than I was. I turned to one friend who was a committed Sheâat and who distrusted America all the way. He looked as if he was bewitched, and I asked him, âSo, what do you think of this man? Do you still consider him an invader?â My friend smiled, still touched and said, âAbsolutely not! He brought tears to my eyes. God bless him.â
Another friend approached me. This one was not religious but he was one of the conspiracy theory believers. He put his hands on my shoulders and said smiling, âI must admit that Iâm beginning to believe in what youâve been telling us for months and Iâm beginning to have faith in America. I never thought that they will hand us sovereignty in time. These people have shown that they keep their promises.â
#1
And the two imperialist leaders shook hands to celebrate the freedom of the country that others thought we wished to take. Freedom is a heady but expensive and often bitter drink. Yet it is sweet today. Aâash Al-Iraq.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 20:53 Comments ||
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#1And the two imperialist leaders shook hands to celebrate the freedom of the country that others thought we wished to take.
Gotta spank you for this one.
NO major power on earth can accuse America of attempting to hold won territory after times of military conquest. The United States has the finest record in all history of not retaining ground held after combat. More to its [OLD] Glory.
#3
Yes, Zen. Isn't it funny how little us imperialists want out of Iraq. This time we don't even ask for the ground to bury our dead. This time we'll bring them home. I don't think that Patton and Ike would have ever thought the French would be decorating the headstones of soldiers with spray-painted swastikas.If there is no greater love than laying down one's life for a friend, then how do you catagorize men that will lay down their lives in the hope that the children of a one-time enemy will life in freedom?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 22:58 Comments ||
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Chuck, here is an odd article fromteh Wasthington Times: Iraqi police under siege. I think that it must have been posted here already, but this part is strikingly odd - "Nadia Jassim joined the police department for only one reason: She so distrusts its ability to protect her family that she signed up for the free weapons training.
"My neighbor was kidnapped, and there are gangs in my neighborhood," the 26-year-old cadet said. "The police don't help, and I want to learn to use the weapons to protect my family."
The police are so unpopular that Miss Jassim and many of the other trainees at the Baghdad Police Academy say they change into their uniforms only once they are inside the compound...
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 20:59 Comments ||
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A U.N. helicopter crashed in Sierra Leone on Tuesday, killing 24 peacekeepers, aid workers and other civilians on board, a U.N. spokeswoman said. Victims aboard the Russian-made Mi-8 also included the Russian crew, U.N. mission spokeswoman Sharon McPherson said. There was no immediate word on the cause of the crash.
They just said why, it's a russian helicopter.
The United Nations has about 11,800 peacekeepers in Sierra Leone, overseeing the West African nation's peace accord after a 1991-2002 civil war.
Posted by: Steve ||
06/29/2004 12:23:33 PM ||
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The United States is resuming direct diplomatic ties with Libya even while exploring reports that Moammar Gadhafi took part in a plot to assassinate Saudi Arabia's crown prince.
They say it like it's a bad thing.
Only a brief reference to the reports was contained in an announcement Monday in Tripoli by Assistant Secretary of State William J. Burns, after he held talks with Gadhafi. Burns said only that he and J. Cofer Black, who heads the department's office of counterterrorism, had discussed with the Libyan leader "recent public allegations regarding Libya and Saudi Arabia." At the State Department, spokesman Adam Ereli said, "I think we made clear our concerns about the story" concerning an alleged plot against Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.
"Give us a heads up so we can get in the Dead Pool."
Burns's inauguration of a new U.S. liaison office in the Libyan capital came 24 years after the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli was closed. He said Libya would take steps to establish a diplomatic office in Washington. "Both sides confirmed that these actions would assist the step-by-step process of strengthening relations as Libya fulfills each of its commitments and the U.S. continues to respond in kind," Burns said in a statement released also in Washington. The Libyan official news agency JANA said Burns and Foreign Minister Abdel Rahman Shalqam had agreed on the parallel diplomatic moves. They marked a continuing improvement in U.S. relations with the North African country following Gadhafi's promise last December to dismantle his chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs.
Gadhafi understands that whole Cause/Effect thing.
Burns said the two sides "held detailed discussions on Libya's commitment to support the global war on terrorism, to repudiate the use of violence for political purposes and to implement its pledge to cease all support for terrorism." Libya is one of seven nations annually branded as sponsors of terror by the department. Burns, who heads the department's Near East bureau, gave no indication in his statement what Gadhafi may have said about the plot reports. President Bush, speaking with reporters this month after the G-8 summit in Georgia, said U.S. investigators were looking into reports of a plot against the Saudi crown prince. "When we find out the facts, we will deal with them accordingly," Bush said. "I have sent a message to him (Gadhafi) that if he honors his commitments to resist terror and to fully disclose and disarm his weapons programs, we will begin a process of normalization, which we have done. We will make sure he honors his commitment."
Translation = We don't fully trust him, yet.
Secretary of State Colin Powell told a group of Arab reporters last week that the administration takes the reports seriously. "The Saudis are in touch with us and giving us information," he said.
"Not that we believe them, but we're listening."
Allegations of a plot against Abdullah were mentioned separately by Abduraham Alamoudi, an American Muslim leader jailed in Alexandria, Va., on federal charges of having illegal financial dealings with Libya, and by Col. Mohamed Ismael, a Libyan intelligence officer currently in Saudi custody. Abdullah is Saudi Arabia's de facto ruler since King Fahd is gravely ill.
King Fahd has been dying for years. Abdullah may have replaced him with a robot as far as I know.
Ereli said Monday that if the reports of a plot proved true, "it would call into question continued development of relations with Libya."
"It might help them, it might hurt them, I just can't say."
Relations with Libya took a sudden lurch forward after Gadhafi started shipping parts of his weapons program to the United States. The Bush administration promoted that action as evidence of a success for U.S. foreign policy. Bush moved in April to restore normal trade and investment ties with Libya, including the import of Libyan oil. However, Libya was not removed from the State Department's terrorism list.
Posted by: Steve ||
06/29/2004 9:33:31 AM ||
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The Norwegian foreign ministry has lodged an official protest after one of its research ships was shot at off the coast of Equatorial Guinea. A Norwegian spokesman told BBC News Online that several bullets had hit the Fridtjof Nansen and its captain was detained overnight by coastguards. Karsten Klepsvik said the ship had been doing a survey on fish stocks, which benefited Equatorial Guinea.
So were are the cries of "No Blood For Fish"?
"Lookee here, an' get this straight: we're Africans, dammit! We ain't eatin' no damn lutefisk!"
The incident comes two weeks after Equatorial Guinea accused Spain of sending a warship to stage a coup.
Spain? They haven't been reading the papers, have they?
Those Spaniards! Every time you turn around they're staging a coup someplace. And the Norwegians are just as bad...
"We see this as a very serious incident and demand an apology and an explanation," Mr Klepsvik said. He said that the Equatorial Guinea authorities had not yet responded.
"Awright! Which one of youse guys shot up the Norwegians? Speak up, now!"
"The ship will not conduct any further surveys until the government had guarantee its security," he said. The research was being carried out through the United Nations World Food Programme.
"We're Africans, dammit! We don't need no damned... Ummm... Food, y'say?"
After Saturday night's incident, the ship was taken to the Cameroon port of Douala. The captain and chief engineer were released on Sunday afternoon after being detained overnight in the port town of Luba on the island of Bioko. Some 17 alleged mercenaries are awaiting trial in the capital, Malabo accused of plotting a coup against President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo. Another 70 were arrested in Zimbabwe, where they are due to go on trial on 19 July.
Ah, that explains it. Remember, the mercs were supposed to meet up with a ship and stage a landing with the rubber boats that were seized and grab the president. Guess the coast guard is still looking for them.
Sounds like Teodoro's got a guilty conscience. "The guilty flee where no man pursueth"...
Anthony Goldman, Africa analyst for Clearwater Research Services, says that the sudden arrival of oil wealth in what until a few years ago was one of the poorest countries in the world has "created an explosive mix" in Equatorial Guinea.
Gotta keep a eye on those Norwegians, used to be Vikings you know.
Posted by: Steve ||
06/29/2004 8:51:17 AM ||
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I expect to see the Royal Norwegian Navy send a task force to blockade the Guinea coast.
Posted by: Mike ||
06/29/2004 9:54 Comments ||
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Cue dramatic music.
EG Military Spokesman: I fear that we have awoken a sleeping giant...
#7
The Norwegian foreign ministry has lodged an official protest after one of its research ships was shot at off the coast of Equatorial Guinea.
That will take care of the problem, all right. The only thing that will be a more effective tactic is premptive letters of protest, but that would be unilateral⢠and provacative. How far the vikings have fallen, and my son is named Leif.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
06/29/2004 14:57 Comments ||
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#8
Won't be so damn funny when the first 60 kt caffeine bomb hits.
#10
This is wild, who would ever think Equatorial Guinea taking on Norway!
Next, will the state of Maine broadside New Brunswick fishing vessels?
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
06/29/2004 15:56 Comments ||
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Norwiegain Anger? Dont discount it.
You oughta meet the Norwegian ski scouts (Bascially their version of infiltration and recon for the Arctic) I met on a Nordkapp exercise a long time ago (during the days of the Evil Empire). They are rather, umm, "cavalier" about borders, and first rate operators.
They rate up there with ROK Marines as "Hard Core".
EFL
Former prime minister Ehud Barak, rejecting assertions by Bill Clinton that Barak bore major responsibility for the breakdown of Israeli-Syrian peace talks in January, 2000, said Sunday that the former presidentâs account of the negotiations was based on "factual inaccuracies on the simplest of levels." "Clinton is not lying" in the account in the recently published "My Life," Barak said. But he added that the president was absent from many of the discussions that preceded the breakdown in talks held in Shepherdstown, Virginia, and may have adopted reports given him by aides. Yes, we all know that whether Clinton is a liar depends on the word is. Is he still a liar if he is actually not lying at this particular moment ....
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 4:13:38 AM ||
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The United Nations fears sending its staff to Iraq amid the executions of foreigners by Al Qaida insurgents. UN officials said virtually all of the staffers from the world body were transferred in 2003 from Baghdad to neighboring Jordan. The officials said that since then the UN has been sending envoys from Amman to Baghdad to oversee more than $200 million in programs by the United Nations Development Program. "We are trying to find creative ways to assist without necessarily overexposing our staff," UN secretary-general Kofi Annan said Friday.
Annan said the UN programs in Baghdad were being handled by Iraqis, including local staff and contractors. A team of Iraqis were also helping prepare for national elections in January 2005, which have been jeopardized by the increase in Sunni insurgency attacks and abductions. "Those in Amman are operating within Iraq through the local staff and contractors," Annan said. "UNDP, for example, is handling a program of more than $200 million on the ground. UNICEF is involved in education and water. So we are doing whatever we can from Amman, and where necessary we do cross-border trips."
Scores of UN staffers and others were killed in a bombing of UN headquarters in Baghdad in August 2003. A study ordered by Annan blamed poor security and recommended the dismissal of the UN security chief. Annan was expected to appoint this week a special envoy to Iraq who would be based in Baghdad. UN sources said five candidates were being considered for the post.
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
06/29/2004 2:40:45 AM ||
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...For instance, in one often-showed clip, Moore claims that President Bush was on vacation 42 percent of the time during his first several months in office â but that estimation included weekends at Camp David, a common practice for presidents. Without those days figured in, Bush actually spent 13 percent of his time on vacation.
The movie also criticizes Bush for staying inside a Florida classroom full of kids for a full seven minutes after he learned that the country was under attack on Sept. 11, 2001. However, the vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission has said that Bush did the right thing. "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana. In "Fahrenheit 9/11"
Moore also claims that the White House approved plans for planes to pick up relatives of Usama Bin Laden right after the attacks. But according to terrorism czar Richard Clarke, he alone approved the Saudi flights. In addition, Moore says that the departing Saudis were not properly processed by the FBI when leaving the country. That too is contradicted by the Sept. 11 commission, which said the Saudis were properly interviewed.
Finally, Moore shows prominent members of the Taliban visiting Texas, implying that they were invited by then-Governor Bush. The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL (search), a California energy company. Moore also doesnât mention that the visit was made with the permission of the Clinton administration, which twice met with Taliban members â in 1997 and 1998.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 4:18:09 AM ||
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Moore is a big ugly propaganda blot on the american landscape.
nothing worse than a hypocrite. Moore uses the same tactics of lying by omission, distorting with one-sided stats and outright misrepresentation that he accuses the "mainstream" media of doing.
The only thing uglier than the man himself is the applauding idiots who keep giving him awards for his "documentary" proving they don't know the dictionary definition of the term.
#3
The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL (search), a California energy company.
Which President Bush happened to have close friends on the board of.
#4
There are plenty of people whose indifference to the Taliban looks fairly indicting in retrospect. How many of you responded to the HUGE email campaign against the Taliban in 2000/2001? It was BEFORE 9/11, when rumors of their savagery toward women should have made EVERYONE, Bush AS WELL AS Clinton, push to change our dealings with them. There was plenty of substantiation by that point that the Taliban were murdering religious savages. So if Bush is guilty, so are plenty of others.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 04:14 ||
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#1
This says it all: The impending migration of Hughes and his colleagues is the latest and most remarkable chapter in the exodus of white Zimbabwean farmers â shown the door by Mugabe and vilified as greedy racists â to other African countries where they are breathing new life into moribund farming economies. Zambia, an importer of maize, its staple food, for the first 36 years of independence, has become a maize exporter since the first white Zimbabweans began arriving in 2001.
Africa needs them, and bless 'em they're doing the Lord's work, but I would have bid good bye long ago.
Excerpted from a Fox Summary that also includes short blurbs on two separate sportscasters being diciplined for implying that Deroit would be burned if Pistons won the NBA title.
Outrageous! 1
The president of a New York branch of the NAACP is in trouble for referring to a city councilman there as a "leprechaun" at the close of a public meeting, reports the Journal-News. In an argument over school funding, Karen Edmonson of the NAACP used the term in an angry exchange with Yonkers City Council Majority Leader Liam McLaughlin. McLaughlin and a colleague are demanding that Edmonson apologize and resign for the comment. "If anybody else made some type of similar remark, everybody would be calling for their head," he said. Edmonson, however, doesnât even think the comment was derogatory. "Itâs a Halloween term. Itâs nothing," she said.
Outrageous! 2
A Multicultural Center Juneteenth meal at a university in Texas that featured fried chicken and watermelon on the menu prompted complaints from some on campus that the choice of food was racist, reports the Daily Texan. A chapter of the Young Conservatives of Texas at Stephen F. Austin University in Nacogdoches said the meal, in celebration of the day slaves were freed in Texas, stereotyped African Americans. "We are against double standards," said Lori Fryman, of the SFA chapter of YCT. "If a predominantly white group had advertised the menu of fried chicken, watermelon and red soda water for the same occasion, people would have called them racist."
Outrageous! 3
The mother of a 6-year-old in California is mobilizing a grass-roots effort to end a rule that prevents schools in that state from giving standardized tests to African American children, reports the Oakland Tribune. Pamela Lewis said she was incensed when she first heard of the rule, which dates to a 1979 case in which a judge decided IQ tests could not be used to determine childrenâs placement in special education classes in California. "Itâs discrimination, itâs a violation of my sonâs civil rights and itâs racism," Lewis said. "This is closet racism within the school district and the courts," she said. "Basically, theyâre saying if youâre black, youâre dumb." Lewis said she is searching for legal representation to help her efforts, but she hasnât found any takers.Some people she has spoken with have urged her not to fight for access to a racially biased test, she said.
Historical Revisions
The historical society in a Massachusetts town is so worried about language on historical markers being offensive to modern sensibilities that it has taken to placing covers on them, reports the Boston Globe. The markers in Deerfield, Mass., mark spots where, in 1704, French and Indian forces attacked settlers. Some contain references to ââsavages" and ââNegro servants" that are now considered offensive. Where one marble tablet originally read: ââMary, adopted by an Indian, was named Walahowey. She married a savage, and became one," it now reads, ââShe married a Kanienâkehaka and adopted the culture, customs and language of her new community in Kahnawake."
One couple said they were incensed by the changes. Rose and James Matthews wrote in a letter to the historical society: ââWe condemn your attempt to create a warm and fuzzy feeling for our Colonial history because of political correctness or personal attitudes. What will you do next? ... [claim] the hatchet marks were actually tooth marks made by tall mice seeking shelter from the cold?"
Posted by: Super Hose ||
06/29/2004 4:41:53 AM ||
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Edmonson, however, doesnât even think the comment was derogatory. "Itâs a Halloween term. Itâs nothing," she said.
So is Spook.
Posted by: ed ||
06/29/2004 11:53 Comments ||
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lol! Nice shot, Ed
Posted by: Frank G ||
06/29/2004 12:04 Comments ||
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#3
How about Buckwheat? Or shine, blue gum,chocolate drop or my personal favorite, picaninny.
EFL
Iraqi voices filled the airwaves of the nationâs first independent talk radio station Monday, applauding a surprise move by the U.S.-led coalition to return sovereignty to Iraq... The callers clogged Radio Dijlaâs telephone lines to congratulate interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, urging him to be strong, while warning insurgents against continued violence. "I send my congratulations to all Iraqis and every Iraqi home," a woman who identified herself as Um Yassin gushed... Her message was echoed by dozens... "I send all the Iraqi people my blessings," said Ali, a caller from Baghdad. "But I warn these terrorists, all the Iraqis will rise up and strike them with steel."
Meanwhile big media is reporting the story as fear of terror, loathing of America, etc.
Posted by: mhw ||
06/29/2004 8:12:28 AM ||
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In other words, the polar opposite of Air Amerikkka.
#2
Meanwhile big media is reporting the story as fear of terror, loathing of America, etc.
If true, big media is actually supporting the goals of the jihadis-they are providing morale to the jihadis and (false) justification for hating America to the Iraqis.
#3
...grinding down support for the war, and as a result for George W. Bush.
And that is of paramount importance to the Left in this country. For the most part--and I'll exclude folks like Ed Koch, who "gets it"--the Left doesn't believe this is a war at all. Perhaps 9/11 was just a fluke... not that'll stop 'em from lining up to see M. Moore's film.
#4
"I send all the Iraqi people my blessings," said Ali, a caller from Baghdad. "But I warn these terrorists, all the Iraqis will rise up and strike them with steel."
Remains to be seen... but if they walk the walk, the Muja are in for a hell of a rough ride.
This all goes back to Bremer and the State Dept taking over - they were the heavy handed bastards who put a lid on the Iraqis. The military's guy was looking to tap into this kind of sentiment (and use the SF guys to leverage it), but Bremer took over and consolidate power to the US and misused the good will our troops had built up.
NEVER let a diplomat have command of TROOPS.
Iraw and Bremer were another case of the Foggy Bottom idiots f**king things up but never getting the full brunt of the blame.
I want Powell moved to Defense, and put Rummy over in State and let him wield the biggest stick he can and clean that damned place out!
US Hands over Power in Iraq
Lateline Australian Broadcasting Corporation television
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1142399.htm
June 28, 2004
TONY JONES, ANCHOR, LATELINE: Well, to discuss todayâs events in Iraq and the broader implications for the Middle East weâre joined now by American foreign policy expert Daniel Pipes, who is in Philadelphia, and long-term critic of US foreign policy Tariq Ali, whoâs in Melbourne. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Daniel Pipes, Iâll start with you if I can and with the handover of sovereignty. As weâve said, the new Iraqi Governmentâs effectively been born [today] in a backroom. How optimistic are you that this nation-building exercise is going to work?
DANIEL PIPES, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST FORUM: Well, Tony, Iâm not very optimistic. I supported the war and I support the attempt to make Iraq into a modern and decent country but I think my Government, the US Government, went too far in looking to create a democratic new Iraq. I donât think thatâs possible.
What is possible is an Iraq that is ruled by someone with a strong arm for some years who will over time move towards democracy. With luck, this will be the first step towards that but Iâm not confident of it.
TONY JONES: Daniel Pipes, it sounds like youâre calling effectively for a new dictator?
DANIEL PIPES: Iâm calling for someone who will be a transition between the hideous regime of Saddam Hussein and a brighter future. But you canât go from one to the other overnight.
I think the basic mistake that the US Government made was to assume that the Iraqis would be like the Germans or Japanese in 1945 and feel defeated and be ready to be guided, whereas in fact they felt liberated and as we can see, are not ready to be guided.
TONY JONES: Tariq Ali, what do you think about this experiment? Is there any hope at all in your opinion, youâve just heard what Daniel Pipes said, Iraq needs a strong man, is there any hope in your opinion for developing a democracy in Iraq?
TARIQ ALI, AUTHOR & COMMENTATOR: Well, I donât think you can have democracy in Iraq with the present crew, which the United States have put in power. To pretend that this is a transfer of sovereignty is of course a grotesque joke and I think this will soon become very clear, but what Daniel Pipes said is of interest, because what it shows is that essentially what has been put into place is a regime which will be very dictatorial and authoritarian and will essentially see its main task as repressing, crushing, the resistance in Iraq.
Whether it will succeed is an open question. One thing is sure - it cannot succeed without the presence of American troops or NATO troops or whatever. And that will mean that in everything but name the occupation of Iraq will continue and the resistance will gather more strength.
TONY JONES: Daniel Pipes, let me get you first of all to respond so what you just heard. I suppose youâre not suggesting that the strongman is probably going to come from within the interim Iraqi administration thatâs just been put in place?
DANIEL PIPES: Iâm not quite sure Tony. It could be an ex-military man, it could be a tribal man, it could be someone from the new administration.
I think history shows that democracy does not emerge full blown, it canât simply be created. It takes time, it takes the development of civic society, you know, rule of law, minority rights, respect for the opposition. These will take time to develop and while I am hopeful that this will develop and I am hopeful that the radical ideologies, Islamist and Baathist and otherwise, can be fended off. I think weâre just at the beginning of this [process], not at the end of it. June 28 does not mark a major event in my mind, itâs just one more a small transition.
TONY JONES: There was one quite significant event, that is that NATO appears to have committed itself in some way to training and arming a new Iraqi army. Whatâs your view of that?
DANIEL PIPES: My view is that the major divisions that existed a year ago and 15 months ago over going to war in Iraq have now somewhat been put in the past and weâre looking at what to do about Iraq and its future. Where really the divisions between the NATO powers, or the Western powers, of the world, in fact, are less severe than they were over the decision to go to war, because weâre now got a situation, a problem, and thereâs a fairly wide consensus that there needs to be some presence there of outside powers to ease the transition.
TONY JONES: Tariq Ali, what do you think about NATOâs emergence in a new role in Iraq and does it indicate that some of the divisions before the war are beginning to evaporate?
TARIQ ALI: Well, I think this was pretty obvious once but now theyâve been occupied. The French and the Germans were desperate to clamber on the band wagon provided they were given a share of the loot. I donât know whether they are being given that, but there isnât much loot because the resistance has made the oil inaccessible. So I donât think it will make much difference if NATO force comes into Iraq to replace the United States.
That isnât going to stop the resistance. I think the resistance is gaining strength every single day until all foreign occupation troops are withdrawn an election will be pretty meaningless in any event, because it will be an election that takes place under occupation.
TONY JONES: How can you have an election at all in the current chaotic climate? If you withdrew the troops now, wouldnât you have a slide into chaos or possibly even a civil war?
TARIQ ALI: Well I think there is a danger of that obviously because once you have a foreign occupation it creates a totally new situation in a country that is occupied, but we canât have a position of saying we invaded, thatâs made a mess, we canât believe because there will be a mess. Itâs a circular argument which doesnât work.
One of the leading Iraqi Ayatollahs, Sistani, called six months ago for elections to a constituent assembly to frame the future of Iraq and ultimately I think that will happen and I think often the divisions between Sunni and Shia are overstated. The big question is - is Iraq capable of governing itself and I think it will be capable of governing itself once the occupation troops withdraw. That is what has created the big divide now.
TONY JONES: Daniel Pipes, can I put that to you. What do you believe would happen in the occupation troops were withdrawn?
DANIEL PIPES: I think it needs to be done intelligently and carefully. The troops should withdraw to the desert first and then from the country as a whole. But were they simply to march out overnight I think the chaos would be terrible.
As far as democracy goes, we have an _expression in the United States about electing someone to the position of dog catcher. I think itâs a rather useful concept. One does not begin by electing the president and prime minister. One begins at the municipal level. One learns the methods and ideas behind democracy and that grows over time. This cannot be done overnight.
The most constructive thing that the occupation forces can do is to help move the Iraqis in that direction, but they canât do it alone. Iraqis ultimately are responsible for themselves.
TONY JONES: So, what is in your opinion, whatâs the most important thing to be happening right now? It sounds like weâre caught between a rock and a hard place. If you listen to both of you itâs hard to see a way out of this?
DANIEL PIPES: We do disagree philosophically, but I think practically we are in rough agreement, which is that the forces, the occupation forces, need to begin to withdraw in an intelligent way.
TONY JONES: Tariq Ali, if the forces were to withdraw, wouldnât that simply be encouragement to the al-Zarqawiâs of Iraq?
TARIQ ALI: Or as your commentators have already said, al-Zarqawi is overplayed. If it were just him there wouldnât be any problems facing the occupation. The fact is in large swathes of the country you now have a population which does not want to be occupied. Thatâs a basic reality which constantly amazes me that people in the West donât understand. People do not like being occupied and therefore the occupation has to end before Iraq moves forward.
TONY JONES: Daniel Pipes, let me bring you in to in to talk about this person Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Do you regard him as President Bush does as proof, in fact the most direct proof, of a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein?
DANIEL PIPES: Yes, I do think thereâs strong links between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, but from my point of view theyâre not terribly important. I acknowledge them, but from my point of view the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein was distinct from the war on terror. The war on terror I understand is a euphemism for war on militant Islam. There was no militant Islam in the Iraqi Government pre-March of 2003. It was a distinct problem. It has somewhat melded together at this point.
But for me the real problem was that Saddam Hussein was a totalitarian maniac who was repressing his own population incredibly, aggressing against many of his neighbours and potentially being threat to ourselves. I would have dubbed the operation that American forces took place in a year and three months ago not Operation Iraqi Freedom, but Operation American Security.
I think itâs our goal as it must be Australiaâs or any other countryâs goal, to go out and first secure its own security and then secondly worry about others. I do worry about others but I think to promote it as war undertaken to help Iraqis is or was a mistake.
TONY JONES: Tariq Ali, Iâm somewhat surprised myself to hear you two gentleman so much in agreement on some of the critical points here. Let me if I can be a bit of a devilâs advocate with you Tariq Ali. A sovereign Iraq backed by troops from a growing coalition of nations moving towards becoming a democracy. Why isnât that a better prospect for Iraqis than remains under the thumb of a tyrant like Saddam Hussein?
TARIQ ALI: We are told now we need a new tyrant? Excuse me. I think the best way to remove...
TONY JONES: To be fair, you were told that by Daniel Pipes.
TARIQ ALI: I think lots of people in the United States are thinking about this question seriously. Itâs not just an isolated position by Daniel Pipes that you need a strongman.
I mean, the point about Saddam Hussein is he was at his worst when he was a close ally of the West during the Iran-Iraq war and soon afterwards. The bulk of his actions against the Kurds were - hang on can I just finish - the bulk of his actions were carried out at that time. At that time Donald Rumsfeld was visiting him. Letâs not forget all that. In any case, in my opinion the best way for authoritarian dictator, whatever sort, to be removed is by their own people. If you want to help you build up the strength of their people. This is the worst of every possible alternative.
TONY JONES: Daniel Pipes?
DANIEL PIPES: Well, youâve got your disagreement [here], Tony. First of all, there was no close alliance between the United States and Iraq at any point.
TARIQ ALI: What?
DANIEL PIPES: Saddam Hussein was always seen as a threat and a problem. There was never, never...
TARIQ ALI: This is not true. Who armed him?
DANIEL PIPES: You made your point. We did not arm him. Look at your statistics. But more important for the present is that Iâm not calling for a Saddam clone - Iâm saying Saddam Hussein was horrific and thank god he is out of power from everybodyâs point of view. What Iâm calling for is what I deem a democratically minded strongman, someone who helps make the transition. If it were possible to go immediately to democracy I would say hooray. I am sceptical of it and looking for someone to make that transition.
We find that all over the world that has happened. Thatâs how democracy - everywhere you look where thereâs full scale democracy it only got there through a long process of increasing democratisation and that is what I think is reasonable and hopeful for Iraq.
TONY JONES: Can I just ask quickly a quick question of Daniel Pipes before I come back to you Tariq Ali. The question is - do you believe, your own government is absolutely genuine about attempting to create democracy in the Iraq?
DANIEL PIPES: Oh, I think very much so. To the point that Iâm disagreeing with it. I think it was as I said, premised on the wrong model of Japan and Germany in 1945, that they had been defeated and they were willing to follow our guidance.
Iraq, I would argue, having gone through a three week war against the Government, they were liberated and theyâre in no mood as weâve seen for 15 months to follow the lead of the West. They have their own ideas about what they are going to do. I say OK, let them follow it. Weâre not their guardians, theyâre not our wards.
TONY JONES: Tariq Ali, what if your pessimism is finally disproved by the Iraqi people themselves. They do get their country functioning again, they do move towards a democratic elections early next year, build a constitution later in the year and have subsequent elections and it all works?
TARIQ ALI: Well, I donât think itâs going to happen while you have occupying armies in the country, Tony. I really donât believe that. I think itâs perfectly possible to have democracy in Iraq. I think Iraq was a very advanced country in terms of level of education, level of women educated etc, itâs got a country with a culture.
I think democracy would come there much sooner than you think, but it might not produce a government which is pro-Western, thatâs what Sam Huntington now calls the democratic paradox. This is something which is happen in a number of those countries if you have democracy. At present the United States has the Saudis, the Egyptians - countries which are not democratic. In any of these countries, if democracy comes, and I think people in the Arab world want democracy, you could have governments hostile to US interests in the region.
TONY JONES: Daniel Pipes, you are a bitter enemy of Islamism yet it seems the US in Iraq must now rely on the good will of Ayatollahs like Sistani to have any chance of success at all? Does that worry you?
DANIEL PIPES: Fortunately Sistani is not an Islamist.
Yes, it does worry me and the democratic paradox is something Iâm very well aware of and my answer to it is donât go immediately to full-scale elections. We saw that in Algeria in 1982. Snap elections after decades of authoritarian rule and the Islamists were on their way to rule.
What needs to happen is something far slower and more gradual with the evolution and the development of such notions as minority rights, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, democracy at the municipal level and then going up, more and more power to the parliament and that will take years if not decades. It cannot be done overnight.
TONY JONES: Tariq Ali I think you probably agree on the timing question, you just hear there. Let me ask you this - will you continue to speak out in favour of what you refer to as the resistance in Iraq, even though thereâs been a transfer of sovereignty?
TARIQ ALI: I donât believe there has been a transfer of sovereignty. Itâs an illusion. Thatâs what you want to us to believe, but no one in Iraq is going to believe it - that a former CIA agent has been appointed prime minister of Iraq and weâre all meant to sit back and applaud. Itâs just a joke and certainly most Iraqis wonât believe it, which is why the resistance will continue and NATO training Iraqi soldiers is fine, but what if the soldiers desert and join the resistance which has been happening and which could happen tomorrow.
TONY JONES: Daniel Pipes, let me get you to respond to that. Do you expect the resistance, the terrorism, the al-Zarqawiâs, the kidnappings etc, the suicide bombings to continue in spite of the fact we now have an Interim Government?
DANIEL PIPES: Let me start by saying I condemn the so-called resistance, this terrorism. I think itâs an abomination. I do worry that it will continue, yes. I do believe that thereâs a widespread perception, as Mr Ali alludes to, that the Government is a creature of the occupying forces and is not autonomous and is not independent and is not truly representative of Iraqis.
TONY JONES: We are going to have to leave it there. I thank you both, Daniel Pipes and Tariq Ali.
Posted by: Anon1 ||
06/29/2004 6:01:34 AM ||
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#1
Tariq Ali is a socialist swine.
Can't stand him.
Daniel Pipes gets it right the most out of the commentators I've read. At least I like his analysis of the situation the best.
I just read yesterdaý's RANTBURG comparison chart Iraq vs Germany (WW2). That actually convinced me more than anything Pipes has said that in effect Iraq is moving WAY too fast for a lasting democracy to take root.
If Germany took so much longer to entrench a western democracy, Iraq should take AT LEAST the same amount of time/manpower.
That it's not should ring everybody's warning bells.
I give the new Iraqi Prez about 2 months before he's a deader. Brave man. Soon to be dead.
#2
Solutions, 'tard, solutions. Your observations are not rooted in anything but the compost betwixt your ears. And you fail to offer any solution to any problem. You just love the clackity-clack of your keyboard. Must make you think you're not alone.
#4
DC - Anon1 is all over RB today, playing the fool for Pipes, as if he is the Voice of Authority. I know for a personal fact that DP is NOT such a voice - his writings do not reflect Islam in practice - and what solutions does Anon1 offer? I didn't see any.
Sorry my post confuses - you're a solid contributor 'round here. Anon1 has recently popped up and now seems to believe that dragging everyone backward to the Official Pipes Myth of the Moderate Muslim will "save" us. It is getting personal as Anon1 has zero track record from which to criticize and is continuously offering Pipes, a slow-learning apologist Arabist, as his answer to all things re: Muslims. Anon1 is a vacuum.
compared to how much YOU post on Rantburg, my posts are but a grain of sand in the hourglass.
Yep, I will say it loud and proud, I think Daniel Pipes is EXCELLENT.
Also, Stephen Den Beste.
Also, I am a fan of LGF.
Nuttin wrong with either of those three, they are superb.
And for YOU .com, to say that I am a vacuum is rich, considering your logical arguing skills at present amount to
attacking the person
appeal to authority
generalisations
appeal to reputation
It is getting personal because YOU are getting personal. You've done a lot for Rantburg but Rantburg is all about ranting and free speech so I don't feel the need to kid-glove you.
You should instead think hard and get smart.
Oh and the reason I respect Daniel Pipes would be that.... he is an expert on Middle Eastern affairs!
National Assembly Speaker Chaudhry Amir Hussain on Monday rejected the Pakistan Peopleâs Party Parliamentariansâ (PPPP) objection, seeking to obstruct the disqualification of Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain in the contest for the prime ministerâs slot because he had defaulted on bank loans. The PPPP announced that it would file references against Mr Hussain with the National Accountability Bureau and the superior courts. Addressing a press conference on Monday evening at the partyâs central secretariat, PPPP leaders told journalists that they had visited the speaker but he rejected their objection without listening to them.
Posted by: Fred ||
06/29/2004 12:00:00 AM ||
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Iraq is now sovereign. By now, you know all the details, but hereâs how President Bush found out -- while seated next to British PM Tony Blair at the NATO meetings this morning.
FANTASTIC pictures at the link. Especially the one of Bush and Blair shaking hands.
A momentous moment in a momentous day. And check out the picture of the note - it gives me goosebumps!
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
06/29/2004 12:20:10 AM ||
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Barbara - I watched this on FoxNews TV - and Blair's eyes positively *sparkled* heh. Thx!
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
