Ukraineâs army was due to resume tests of surface-to-air missiles Thursday, four years after the accidental downing of a commercial airliner during a military exercise, Press Association reported.
Defense Minister Anatoly Gritsenko and other top-ranking commanders were to watch the test of the S-200 missile from the southern Crimean Peninsula.
The test was to be the first since October 2001, when a stray S-200 missile hit a passenger jet over the Black Sea, killing 78 people â mostly recent Russian immigrants to Israel.
Oops!
Ukraine and Russia denied the plane was shot down by a Ukrainian missile, saying the missiles used had a range of only 10 kilometers, and the plane was more than 300 kilometers away. Nevertheless, U.S. officials said they had âconvincingâ indications the plane was hit by a Ukrainian SA-5 missile.
Ukraine suspended live surface-to-air missiles tests following the disaster. Ukraineâs impoverished and poorly trained army has been plagued by accidents, with more than 700 servicemen killed in mishaps over the past six years.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/06/2005 08:59 ||
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About 200 people with icons and slogans have attacked the opening of Vedic culture festival in the South Russian resort of Anapa. The festival, organized by Russian Krishnaites â a Hindu sect wide spread outside India â took place in a health center. Cossacks in camouflage and elderly women burst into the center territory demanding that Krishnaites leave their town, Russian website Religio.Ru reported.
They're mean, dirty fighters. The Cossacks are pretty bad too.
The site also said that representatives of Russian Orthodox clergy headed the protest.
The attackers carried slogans saying âVedic Culture Is Hitlerâs Cultureâ and âWe Will Clean Anapa of Devil Kin.â Some of them turned over a book stall, trampled down a portrait of a Krishnaite saint, tore down festival posters. Organizers of the festival supported by local authorities held negotiations with the attackers who agreed to leave the scene so that the Krishnaites could continue their festival. However, the Hindus were forbidden to wear traditional Indian costumes when visiting Anapa. The festival included seminars, songs and dances, other actions.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/06/2005 08:52 ||
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ROFLMAO! Ima wonder if I can set up Altiris to run a Virtual Pogrom over the network. Lily white and all things nicer are what me users need.
Ima reminded of ParaScan, the spoof virus scan program from about 1989? The one that discovered the Rosemary Wood virus (left 19K gaps in your WordStar files) the Momma Cass Virus (left a ham sandwich in your harddrive) and of course the deadly DOS virus (limits your memory to 640K unless you pay).
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
10/06/2005 9:01 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Article sez it's the Kuru Space Center in French Guiana. Google confirms that's the name of the launch point. There's a town nearby named Kourou.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/06/2005 10:17 Comments ||
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#3
Well for Geo-synchronus orbits ala those used by ComSats the closed to the equator the more payload you launch vehicle can put into orbit. If the Russians do begin to launch fron Kouro look for them to try and undercut the European launch services. As an aside the only reason that the ISS money pit is in the orbit it is is so it accessable from Russian launch pads in the 'Stans
#4
That means the Russians and the ESU are cooperating at a level previously unknown. It also means Kazhakstan and Star City are has beens. Furthermore it means no more ridiculously high latitude orbits to allow for access by Star City. Too late for the ISS but a good move for putting up anything in the future.
DUSHANBE - The Tajik Supreme Court jailed a top opposition leader for 23 years on an array of charges on Wednesday, and his supporters said the aim was to stop a rival to President Imomali Rakhmonov before elections next year. The court found Democratic Party leader Makhmadrouzi Iskandarov guilty of eight crimes, including terrorism, banditry and illegal possession of arms, a court official told Reuters.
Oh, not that Democratic Party.
The Central Asian stateâs opposition said the sentence would benefit veteran leader Rakhmonov, who turned 53 on Wednesday and will seek re-election in November after being in power since 1992.
Iskandarov, a 51-year-old former head of state gas firm Tajikgaz, had repeatedly said that he was ready to challenge Rakhmonov in the election âto liberate the Tajik nationâ. âIf it werenât for his (Iskandarovâs) political ambitions, he would have not been handed this sentence and no trial would have happened in the first place,â Rakhmatillo Zoyirov, head of the liberal Social Democratic Party, told Reuters. âHis political ambitions triggered an order from above to institute a criminal case against him,â added Zoyirov, a professional lawyer, calling the charges âspuriousâ.
That usually happens in dictatorships.
Iskandarov was arrested in Russia last December on the same charges at the request of Russian prosecutors, but he was released shortly afterwards. He was arrested by Tajik police in April upon his return to Tajikistan.
In July the United States criticised Tajikistan over Iskandarovâs arrest and said that during the trial he had been denied regular and unobserved access to his legal counsel and his family had been unable to meet him. Washingtonâs comments were part of an international chorus from human rights bodies and democracy watchdogs who have criticised the government for attacks on independent journalists and attempts to stifle the press.
In 2003 Rakhmonov oversaw a referendum on constitutional changes allowing him to seek two consecutive seven-year terms. Rakhmonov enjoys support from former master Russia whose troops sided with his secular government during a 1992-97 civil war with Islamic guerrillas which claimed more than 100,000 lives.
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/06/2005 00:00 ||
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Ukraine on Thursday got the clearest signal so far that it is in the queue for enlargement, as well as the promise of an EU visa deal by December.
"Our door remains open. The future of Ukraine is in Europe", European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso said after a meeting with Kiev's new prime minister Yuri Yekhanurov in Brussels.
The president cautioned that "the best way to achieve this" is to take concrete steps in terms of administrative and economic reforms, instead of "talking about accession all the time".
But his remarks were much more positive than recent comments from commission vice president Siim Kallas and enlargement chief Olli Rehn, who gave the impression that the door might close after Turkey and the western Balkans go in.
"We have hostility in Europe not only to possible future enlargement but even to the enlargement that we have already agreed, with popular demonstrations and politicians saying we made a mistake", Mr Kallas had said in meetings earlier the same day.
Brussels' economics and finance department director, Antonio de Lecca, was even starker. "There is real economic integration, but this process is entirely separate from any proposals of enlargement", he had indicated.
Eastern European EU diplomats hovering on the fringes of Thursday's gatherings also indicated that there is plenty of interest in the Ukrainian enlargement idea away from the glare of public opinion. "Many of us want this. It is the commission's job to be cautious and it is our job to push", a senior Polish source said.
But both sides are set to focus on small, practical steps toward closer relations in line with Mr Barroso's advice for now.
The commission president said that Brussels has completed preparations for a visa deal enabling easier travel for Ukrainian students and businessmen to the Schengen zone.
The agreement could form the keynote of the EU-Ukraine summit in Kiev this December, if member states give the green light in time.
On top of this, Ukraine claims to be on the verge of obtaining market economy status and joining the World Trade Organisation by the end of this year, with Mr Yekhanurov calling the WTO target "realistic".
The move would pave the way for starting talks on a free trade area (FTA) with the EU in January giving Ukrainian energy and steel firms access to the single market down the line.
Turkish diplomats revealed on Thursday that the commission has already begun work on a feasability study for the FTA talks.
Mr Yekhanurov took over from former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko last month, after president Viktor Yushchenko sacked his government over corruption allegations.
The crisis has compounded the credibility problems of the post-Orange Revolution regime, with overall economic growth and foreign investment in Ukraine nosediving this year.
Some firms, such as power plant specialists EnerSys are still pouring hundreds of millions of euros into new facilities in the country. But many businessmen swap anecdotes about the upsurge in corruption and the rise in the cost of bribes since the Yushchenko era began.
"The problem with the colour revolutions, is that they are clan revolutions, where one clan takes over from another", a Slovenian diplomat explained. Mr Yekhanourov promised to boost the business climate by halting this month the renationalisation process begun by his predecessors, while saying property ownership is "sacred" in Kiev.
But Mr Barroso and Mr Kallas both stressed that the real "litmus test" in Ukraine's march toward deeper European integration will be the fair conduct of the parliamentary elections next March.
#1
A friend of mine who deals in filtration in Victoria BC just got back from the Ukraine last week. He said that the big cities like Kiev are modern and have money. When you get back into the hinterlands, it is like stepping back a century, people are depressed. Until the fall of the USSR, all the money went back to Moscow. Isn't there something in the EU about new or prospective members needing certain standards of living and in their respective economies met before they can be accepted?
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/06/2005 20:47 Comments ||
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#2
It is very much in our own interests to keep Turkey out of the hands of the Islamacists and looking west.
Lots of reasons including:
It is a non-Arab muslim country that has been, relatively speaking, moderate.
It historically was a very useful ally - as my USAF friends who served at the airfields on the Soviet border remember clearly.
It controls, potentially, the major portion of waters flowing into Iraq and other countries in the region. It also controls an important shipping strait.
There are many Turks still willing to aim at secularism as an important principle for government.
The list could go on and on .... the ability of Turkish industry to compete with China as China moves a bit more upscale / upwage is valuable as well.
#3
Well, lotp, #3 is current - all of the other substantive points are past tense, I'd say. It is being run by Islamists, now, contrary to their constitution, and their Military, which is constitutionally obligated to keep it secular, sat with their hands in their laps both during Erdogan's "illegal" campaign / election (remember the articles from that time pointing this out?), and the stage-managed decision of the Legislature (to Chirac's glee) to deny US passage rights at the moment of truth. And this happened after we went to bat for them when France derailed their request for Patriot batteries through NATO before the start of the war. Remember? We, the US, went around France and saw to it they had them, just in case. We were damned fine allies.
But the vote to disallow US passage rights kept the 4th ID out of the entire campaign. Which yielded the current Sunni Triangle situation. The hammer had no anvil... and the Triangle got a pass. Want to discuss Turkey's culpability in the current Iraq situation? Long before you came here that was whacked around RB pretty good - and I lay many US dead on Turkey's doorstep. There are a few here who wanted to defend Turkey - but the facts weren't there - they pointed to stupidity and perfidy and gullibility and being played like a violin by Chirac and others in the EU opposing US actions in Iraq. Yippie & Co are fools, suckers, and not our allies. Their Military must be riddled with his supporters, for they failed miserably in their role as secular guarantors.
IIRC, what - 18-20 months ago?, when Bush went there he gave them nice compliments about being stalwart allies and vowed to assist them with their EU aspirations, yadda³, he was booed - and this was a crowd of the elites who are allowed to attend such ceremonies. I'm thinking the past was pretty nice, and they rocked as allies - then, but the present is something else, entirely. We've kept our word to them every step of the way. They have not - for the last 2+ yrs. Period. Just my take.
are we better off alienating Turkey or trying to get them back on board?
They've been pretty well screwed over by the French on this EU admission and may well regret blocking the 4ID. They still have to worry about a Kurdistan emerging from Iraq with our blessings. So they should be motivated to play ball with us.
The alternative is that the Islamofascists really take Turkey over and we've got an Islamic Republic on our hands.
Turkey screwed up. They made a mistake. We all do. If we wanted to use a stick on them we should have done it then. Have they learnt a lesson? I sure don't know, but if they did, they would make such an expression of thanks as this. If they're ready to put our relationship back on the tracks, we should be gracious and accept. If not, there'll be time to get even. But a democratic Turkey that can disagree with us from time to time is a valuable asset in trying to democratize the ME. At some point the Iraqis and Afghans will probably be rude and ungrateful just like the Germans, French, Italians, Russians and all the others we've helped with our blood. We need to get used to it. It's the way nations behave. The important thing is to do in the moment what best ensures our long term security. And right now that seems to be making nice with the Turks. No matter how much it makes one wish to puke.
The alternative, no matter how probable we think it is, is so horrendous, that we ahve to make every effort to avoid it.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/06/2005 10:48 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Yup. That's about my take too, Mrs. D.
BTW, .com, I've been around the Burg longer than may be obvious.
#8
So, lotp, you agree with Mrs D who agrees with me but I disagree with you?
Look, what you folks are saying reminds me of the Bill Cosby routine where he's in surgery and he hears the physician say, "Oops!" This isn't an "Oops!" This is just a tad more than that, I'd say ... Witness:
*********************************************
Turkey agrees to aid US war
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?D=2003-02-06&ID=9961&HC=1
The motion was passed by 308 votes to 93 with 9 abstentions.
Turkey offers Saddam safe haven
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10121&D=2003-02-11&HC=1
FOLLOWUP:
Turkish Prime Minister Abdullah Gul Tuesday denied a report that he had offered safe haven to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein if he stepped down to prevent a U.S.-led war.
Turkey denies British troops role on border
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10187&D=2003-02-13&HC=1
Turkey is withholding permission for the deployment of British troops in support of American ground forces preparing a northern front against Saddam Hussein's regime.
Activities In Incirlik Base Continue
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10237&D=2003-02-14&HC=1
Under permission of the parliament, necessary renovation, development and construction works have been continuing at military bases and ports.
NATO â Minus France â Ends Split on Turkey
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10305&D=2003-02-16&HC=1
The alliance of the United States and 15 other nations finally reached agreement late Sunday after a month of wrangling after France was shut out of talks. The other holdouts, Germany and Belgium, then dropped objections to begin planning to defend Turkey in the event of an attack by neighboring Iraq, NATO officials said.
Turkish Press stories on Iraq (long)
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10380&D=2003-02-18&HC=1
...
HERE IS LAST PROPOSAL
The paper listed the demands of Turkish government from the U.S. before submitting its motion on deployment of foreign soldiers in Turkey and sending soldiers abroad. Turkey asked for 10 billion dollars of donation and 15 billion dollars of long-term credit from the U.S. to meet its losses stemming from a possible Iraqi war. Turkey also asked the U.S. to meet all of its military expenses, to erase its military credits and to set up qualified industry zones.
In-line snarking...
$10 billion donation
$15 billion line of credit
Pick up Turkish military's bar tab for 2003 Iraq party
Forgive Turkish Military's debt at PX
Set up qualified industry (free trade?)zones
Ankara To Washington: We Are Ready Whenever You Are Ready
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10365&D=2003-02-18&HC=1
Foreign Minister Yasar Yakis said early on Tuesday that the government couldn't submit the second motion on deployment of foreign soldiers in Turkey to the parliament on Feb. 18, adding the government was ready to submit it to the parliament in the shortest possible time when the conditions were fulfilled.
Brits, Turks waffle on Iraq
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10359&D=2003-02-18&HC=1
U.S. allies Britain and Turkey appeared to waver yesterday in their resolve to back quick military action against Iraq with or without UN approval.
Money gobbling Turks - whose goose will be cooked?
Yet another Turkish delay of a request by Washington for the deployment of up to 40,000 American troops in Turkey.
Turkey's parliament has not received a government request for U.S. troop deployment, Middle East Newsline reported. Officials said the government of Prime Minister Abdullah Gul will not ask for a parliamentary vote until negotiations over a U.S. compensation package with Turkey are completed. "The United States has thousands of troops on ships waiting outside of Turkish ports," a Western diplomatic source said. "This situation is quickly coming to a head. It's a matter of hours and days."
Latest Turkish press news
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10402&D=2003-02-19&HC=1
(pix of US equipment offloading from ships)
Turkey moves to allow in U.S. troops
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10471&D=2003-02-20&HC=1
Ankara moved Thursday to end a standoff with Washington by announcing it would send to parliament a motion to allow U.S. troops to deploy in Turkey, but U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said he wanted a reply by the end of the day.
Todays Turkish Press Scan
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10447&D=2003-02-20&HC=1
...
ERDOGAN CHALLENGES
Justice and Development Party (AK Party) leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan reacted harshly to the U.S. administration. Erdogan said, ''we will not accept verbal guarantee. Many agreements have been made so far, but none of them has been taken into consideration. Prime Ministry will not prepare the motion before our demands have been fulfilled.'' Erdogan said, ''they always expect us to make concession. Nobody has the right to make Turkey to pay a cost as it had happened in 1991. First of all, the demands should be met.'' AK Party leader Erdogan stated that, ''we will not accept verbal guarantee. The agreement that would be made should be like the international agreements.''
SENER: EVERYTHING MAY CHANGE IN FIVE MINUTES
Council of Ministers discussed in details the developments experienced in Iraq. However, the motion regarding deployment of the U.S. soldiers in Turkey was not brought to signature at the meeting. Government Spokesman Abdullatif Sener said no decision has been taken regarding the motion. Responding to the questions of reporters, Sener said, ''you ask me the situations that may occur within some hours. However, very new developments may occur within five minutes.''
SHIPS WAITING FOR 'MOTION'
Although the parliament has not approved the motion that allows crossing of U.S. troops, an American vessel arrived at Iskenderun port and discharged 522 military vehicles. Meanwhile, it was mentioned that several ships that were carrying soldiers and ammunitions cast anchor off Cyprus and they were waiting for approval of ''motion''.
U.S. to Turkey: "Make up your damned mind!"
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10463&D=2003-02-20&HC=0
The United States appears to have ended its patience with Turkey and threatens to review their strategic relationship unless Ankara immediately approves the deployment of tens of thousands of American troops in Turkey. The new U.S. approach is being utilized amid another Turkish delay of a request by Washington for the deployment of up to 40,000 American troops in Turkey.
A Military Consensus with Turkey
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10450&D=2003-02-20&HC=0
Turkey and the US have reached a consensus on military matters concerning Iraq because Ankara got what it wanted from the US in this area.
Turkey-Bound U.S. Troops Land in Romania
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10491&D=2003-02-21&HC=1
Around 250 U.S. troops bound for Turkey arrived at a Romanian air base near the Black Sea port of Constanta, part of a buildup of forces for a possible war on Iraq, officials said Friday.
Turkey edges closer to deal with US
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10513&D=2003-02-22&HC=1
Washington and Ankara were edging towards a deal last night that could eventually allow American troops to be deployed in south-eastern Turkey, where they will prepare a northern front against Saddam Hussein's regime. But the success of any agreement, likely to include a compensation package of more than $26bn (£16.5bn), may yet depend on a free vote in Turkey's parliament, where large numbers of both opposition and government deputies are vocally anti-war.
Turkish Cabinet OKs U.S. Troop Deployment
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10592&D=2003-02-24&HC=1
Ending a high stakes diplomatic standoff, Turkey's Cabinet agreed Monday to the deployment of tens of thousands of U.S. combat troops ahead of a possible war in Iraq. The measure is expected to face a vote in Turkey's parliament on Tuesday.
Deal reached and second US ship started unloading in Iskenderun
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10586&D=2003-02-24&HC=1
Turkish news alert, Second US flagged freighter ''Antares'' started to unship military hardware in the port of Iskenderun.
And U.S., Turkey reach $15B agreement
*************************************************
Turkey U.S. troops vote hits hitch
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10632&D=2003-02-25&HC=1
Turkish and U.S. officials have failed to agree on the details of a deal to deploy tens of thousands of American troops during overnight talks, likely delaying a parliamentary vote authorizing the move.
Turkey Beefs Up Defenses
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10671&D=2003-02-26&HC=1
Turkey beefed up its defenses Wednesday, shipping Dutch ground-to-air missiles into a southern port as Washington increased pressure for permission to deploy troops for a possible invasion of Iraq.
TURKEY DEAL ON TROOPS
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10698&D=2003-02-27&HC=1
Turkey's Defence Ministry has reached an agreement with the US on troop deployment ahead of a crucial government vote on the issue. The US wants to base 62,000 troops, aircraft and helicopters in Turkey in the event of military action against neighbouring Iraq. They would be used to open up a second front, which analysts say would shorten any war and limit casualties. In return for its cooperation, America is offering Turkey $24bn worth of aid. Defence Minister Vecdi Gonul said: "Agreement is complete on the military issues. All that's being discussed is at what level (the deal) will be signed."
Turkey MPs urged to delay war vote
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10703&D=2003-02-27&HC=0
Turkey's ruling party has asked parliament to postpone a vote on whether to allow US troops to use Turkish territory to launch an attack against Iraq. Salih Kapusuz, a senior official of the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), said it wanted the decision - which had been expected later on Thursday after a string of delays - to be postponed until Saturday. No immediate explanation was given for the request, which came on the heels of an agreement between Ankara and Washington regarding compensation for Turkish military co-operation with the US.
***************************************
Turkey rejects U.S. troops
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10792&D=2003-03-01&HC=1
Turkey's parliament speaker says a motion to allow U.S. troops into the country for a possible Iraq war has been rejected, an MP told reporters. The issue is crucial to U.S. military plans and Turkey's relations with Washington. The vote, carried out behind closed doors, ended with 264 votes for and 251 votes against with 19 abstentions â an apparent slim victory for the government. But the opposition party challenged the result. The opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) argued that the government had not won the 267 votes needed to represent a majority of the 534 lawmakers present in the assembly.
No plans for new Turkey vote on US troops
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10803&D=2003-03-02&HC=1
The Turkish Government has no immediate plans to submit another motion to Parliament on deploying US troops for a possible Iraq war, a ruling party official said, a day after MPs rejected a similar motion. "The motion has been postponed indefinitely, there is no motion in the foreseeable future," Eyup Fatsa, deputy chairman of the Justice and Development Party's parliamentary group, was quoted by the Anatolia news agency as saying.
#2 My guess would be it's a result of the Islamist control of parliament, coupled with assiduous lobbying by Iraq and probably the Soddies. I think they really did choose up sides here, and that they expect to get paid by the eventual winners. They just don't expect the eventual winners to be us.
Posted by Fred 2003-03-02 09:18:51|| Front Page|| Comment Top
Supplies languish in Turkish port
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10846&D=2003-03-03&HC=1
Every day for the past two weeks, frustrated servicemembers have prepared to move equipment to forward locations as they waited for Turkey to give the OK to start unloading supplies.
Sunday was no different, as events in the Turkish parliament Saturday only served to confuse things. On Sunday, a long U.S. military convoy stretched the length of the seaport in Iskenderun, which is squeezed full with camouflaged trucks, Humvees and engineering equipment. With the port filling up with U.S. military equipment, 1st Infantry Division logisticians remain eager to move it out to make room for more.
Whether additional U.S. forces will land in Turkey is up in the air. A rancorous day in the Turkish parliament Saturday ended when there were not enough votes to approve a 60,000-strong U.S. combat force coming through Turkey to bolster a northern front against Iraq.
Turkish Chief of General Staff meets with Turkish Prime Minister
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10836&D=2003-03-03&HC=1
OZKOK VISITS GUL TO DISCUSS RECENT DEVELOPMENTS ON IRAQ
Chief of General Staff Gen. Hilmi Ozkok yesterday visited Prime Minister Abdullah Gul to evaluate Parliamentâs decision rejecting the proposals on Iraq. During their meeting, Ozkok briefed Gul on the recent situation of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK). âIf Turkish troops enter the northern Iraq, this would cost to Turkey,â he said. âIt wouldnât be appropriate for the TSK to enter the northern Iraq under these conditions as it didnât get enough support from the US.â Gul stated that the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) government asked for the US administration to warn the Iraqi opposition leaders who declared that they would consider Turkish troops as enemy if they enter northern Iraq, but that it wouldnât get a positive response from the US.
And then there is this:
OZKOK: WE SHOULD GO TILL BAGHDAD IN CASE WE ENTER NORTHERN IRAQ
Chief of General Staff Gen. Hilmi Ozkok paid a surprise visit to Prime Minister Abdullah Gul on Sunday. Ozkok wanted an additional budget for a possible intervention against Northern Iraq. Gen. Ozkok said, ''we should go till Baghdad if we enter Northern Iraq. We can not have the right to speak if we fail to go till Baghdad. Budget of defense should be reinforced in this respect.''
US hits roadblock in push to war
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10858&D=2003-03-04&HC=1
America admitted yesterday that the war due to begin as early as next week might have to be put back by at least a month because of Turkey's refusal to allow US ground troops to deploy there.
U.S. ABANDONS TURKEY AS SECOND FRONT
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10940&D=2003-03-05&HC=1
The Bush administration has abandoned the hope that Turkey will serve as a major front in the planned U.S.-led war against Iraq. Officials said the Defense Department has ordered U.S. Central Command to begin preparations to execute a contingency plan for a one-front war against Iraq.
*********************************************
We need US army, says Turkeyâs military chief
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=10954&D=2003-03-06&HC=1
Turkey's armed forces yesterday came out in favour of deploying thousands of US combat troops in the country for a second front against Iraq. Hilmi Ozkok, the chief of general staff, said the motion that was narrowly defeated by the parliament on Saturday was in Turkey's best interests. His unexpected remarks have boosted hopes within the Bush administration that the government will resubmit the Bill within the coming days and that with the generals' support it will be cleared. Gen Ozkok added that a second front in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq would speed up victory and minimise casualties. "The Turkish armed forces' view is the same as the government's," he said. "The war would be shorter, there would be less pain . . . fewer will die."
He added that economic aid from the United States in exchange for Turkish support would help mitigate the effects of a war with Turkey's Arab neighbour.
The Turkish military, which has seized power three times in the past four decades, remains hugely influential and few politicians dare go against its wishes.
Dozens of US Navy ships are anchored off Turkey's Mediterranean coast waiting to unload tons of equipment and thousands of soldiers who are set to transit through Turkey's largely Kurdish south-eastern provinces into Iraqi Kurdistan. The Bush administration, angered by Saturday's vote, has been threatening to cut Turkey out of its war plans and to create what Western diplomats here call a "northern front line" by parachuting troops into northern Iraq. Those warnings, coupled with the shelving of a $6 billion (£3.9 billion) American aid package, appear to have forced Turkey to rethink its strategy. The US has also indicated that it would oppose any unilateral moves by the Turkish military to enter northern Iraq in the absence of a deployment deal.
Erdogan Wins Vote, Poised to Lead Turkey - New Vote for G.I.âs on Thursday
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11088&D=2003-03-09&HC=1
Recep Tayyip Erdogan won a seat in parliament Sunday, a crucial victory that paves the way for him to become prime minister and strengthens his hand toward uniting the government on allowing in U.S. troops for an Iraq war. The charismatic Erdogan â already the nation's de facto leader â has advocated the U.S. troop deployment in Turkey, and analysts say one of his first moves as premier could be to purge ministers who oppose it.
Prime Minister Abdullah Gul is expected to resign Wednesday to make way for Erdogan to take over the government, after Erdogan's Justice and Development Party overwhelmingly won balloting in the southern town of Siirt. Town officials said Justice captured 84.7 percent of the final vote count. It was unclear when parliament would be ready to take up a new resolution on U.S. troop deployment, after lawmakers failed to approve a resolution last week. Turkish media say a vote could come as early as Thursday, but members of the Justice Party said it could be two weeks before a new government is in place.
Erdogan's election was likely to end some of the confusion within the Turkish government. Gul is head of the administration, but the Erdogan leads the ruling party and is widely regarded as the power behind the scenes. It was Erdogan whom President Bush invited to the White House after Turkey's national elections in November. Some analysts say those muddled lines of authority contributed to the failure of the resolution last week by a mere four votes in the 550-seat parliament â despite Justice's huge majority of 362 seats. Erdogan had been barred from running in November national elections because of a conviction for inciting religious hatred over a poem he read at a rally in Siirt, 60 miles north of the Iraqi border.
Justice lawmakers changed the constitution after the national vote to allow Erdogan to run for office Sunday. "In the November elections, the person who was the prime minister in our hearts was not able to become a deputy. This week this mistake, this shame is being rectified," said Deputy Prime Minister Ertugrul Yalcinbayir. The vote comes as Washington pressures Turkey to allow in U.S. combat troops to open a northern front against neighboring Iraq in a possible war. Ships carrying equipment for the soldiers are already off the Turkish coast, and it was unclear how long Washington could wait for a Turkish decision. Erdogan has hinted he will soon resubmit a troop deployment motion. Although the Turkish public is overwhelmingly against a war, Erdogan urged legislators after the failed vote to act "not to satisfy their daily emotions but toward the country's future."
Rebuffing the United States risks straining ties with Washington and losing a say in the future of neighboring Iraq â as well as a $15 billion U.S. aid package offered in exchange for hosting U.S. troops. "Recep Tayyip Erdogan's test in Siirt will determine the fate of the motion," Enis Berberoglu wrote in the Hurriyet newspaper. "If a result that pleases the (Justice party) emerges from the elections, then Erdogan's hand will be strengthened." The newspaper reported Saturday that Erdogan plans to sack four ministers who opposed the deployment, reducing the number of ministers from 24 to 20.
During Gul's premiership, Erdogan strongly influenced policy, and Cabinet ministers â including Gul â often consulted Erdogan after key meetings. Although Erdogan urged legislators to vote for the first failed resolution, his words are likely to have a stronger impact once he is in office. "It is one thing to run a government by remote control and another to sit in the prime minister's seat," said Ilnur Cevik, editor in chief of the Turkish Daily News. "Gul knew he was a transition prime minister and exerting your will on the party is very hard if you are a lame duck prime minister." The Siirt by-elections were scheduled after Turkey's election board ruled that a ballot box there had been tampered with during the national vote.
Turkish News
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11159&D=2003-03-11&HC=1
BUSH PHONES BUT CAN'T GET PROMISE
U.S. President George W. Bush, who spoke to Justice and Development Party (AK Party) leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan by phone and congratulated him on being elected as deputy, was not satisfied with the issue of motion. Bush asked Erdogan when the second motion would be submitted to parliament. When he was expecting a positive response, Erdogan listed Turkey's reservations. Erdogan wanted participation of Turkmens in the leadership council and increase of economic package.
ACTIVITY CONTINUES IN BASES AND PORTS
Activity continues in bases and Iskenderun port which will play an important role for northern front in a possible U.S. military operation against Iraq. Major Ruhi Caliskan who confiscated weapons of U.S. soldiers who tried to leave the port without permission was assigned to another department in the port.
Slap on the wrist because it made the news.
A total of 46 vehicles went to Mardin, Gaziantep and Silopi. There is also activity in Incirlik Base. A total of 15 buses carrying U.S. soldiers went from Incirlik Base to Gaziantep. Dispatch of military equipment and vehicles from Iskenderun port continued on Tuesday within the framework of renovation in bases and ports. Sources told A.A correspondent that trucks loaded with military vehicles and equipment left the port in the morning. Meanwhile, routine activities continued in Incirlik base in Yuregir town of southern Adana province. Hangar doors are open while a tanker plane and C-17 cargo plane landed at the base. Renovation also continues in the base.
Turks Add A Hurdle To U.S. War Plans
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11225&D=2003-03-12&HC=1
Hardening their position, Turkey's leaders insist they need further assurances about post-war Iraq before they allow U.S. troops to deploy along the border for an attack. In a new complication, they also are refusing to let the Pentagon use Turkish airspace without approval from parliament.
"The United States and Turkey have reached an agreement, but the missing piece is a counterpart agreement between the United States and the Iraqi Kurds," he said. "Turkey says it wants assurances from Washington, but what would really help are assurances from the Iraqi Kurds."
Turkey calls weekend debate
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11241&D=2003-03-13&HC=1
The Turkish parliament is being called to sit this weekend, as international attention focuses on a possible second vote on US troop deployment. The motion was narrowly rejected on 1 March, halting US preparations for a northern front in any war against Iraq. Newly-appointed Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has hinted that he may reintroduce the motion, although on Wednesday Foreign Minister Yasar Yakis made clear there was no guarantee of this.
Chirac basks in warm glow of adulation
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11240&D=2003-03-13&HC=1
Jacques Chirac basked yesterday in an unprecedented show of adulation as newspapers, commentators and politicians of all hues showered the French president with praise for his promise to veto a UN resolution giving the green light for an attack on Iraq. The possible longer-term economic and political consequences for France of the president's move, as well as the impact on world order as expressed in the United Nations, were largely ignored as the nation rallied proudly round a leader whom the Catholic newspaper La Croix compared to Nelson Mandela.
Todayâs Turkish Press on Irag
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11271&D=2003-03-14&HC=1
WASHINGTON OFFICIALLY ASKS ANKARA FOR OVER FLIGHT PERMISSION, USE OF SEVERAL TURKISH MILITARY AIRBASES
ERDOGAN HOLDS A TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WITH CHENEY
U.S. PRESIDENT BUSH CALLS FOR URGENT RESPONSE FOR MOTION AND AIR SPACE
A LITTLE SPACE BETWEEN GENERAL STAFF AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP
Turkey Signals Delay on U.S. Troop Deal
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11314&D=2003-03-15&HC=1
Turkey's new government signaled Saturday it would wait at least another week to decide about the deployment of U.S. forces on its soil, but the United States appeared to be losing hope of using Turkey to open a northern front against Iraq. A senior U.S. official said Washington has now retracted its offer to give Turkey $15 billion in economic aid if it allowed the U.S. deployment. "The package was time-bound and we have moved on time-wise," the official said on condition of anonymity.
U.S. Takes Back Turkey Aid Package
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11344&D=2003-03-16&HC=1
As U.S. hopes dwindled of going through Turkey for an attack on Iraq, the Bush administration took back its offer to give $15 billion in aid to Turkey in exchange for military cooperation.
Turkey to allow US troops.
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11413&D=2003-03-17&HC=1
Top Turkish leaders say government will urgently take action toward allowing in U.S. troops, according to a statement.
Turkish Press Scan /Review for Monday
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11392&D=2003-03-17&HC=1
TEN SHIPS UNLOAD 2087 MILITARY VEHICLES AT ISKENDERUN PORT
''U.S. TO FIGHT AGAINST IRAQ WITHOUT TURKEY''
''WE HAVE NOT BREAK OFF TIES WITH U.S.''
''15 BILLION DOLLARS HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED''
OZILHAN: ''MOTION MAY NOT BE ADOPTED''
LAST WEEK FOR BARGAINING BETWEEN TURKEY AND U.S.
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Keep out of Kurdish areas, US warns Turkey
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11384&D=2003-03-17&HC=1
Thirteen missile-firing US warships yesterday sailed into the Red sea to obtain a clear line of fire against Iraqi targets following Turkey's refusal to open its airspace to American forces preparing the assault on Saddam Hussein. In a sign that exchanges between the Nato allies have degenerated into political threats, the US warned Ankara to abandon plans to send troops into Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq.
Reports: Turkey might rethink troop decision
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11431&D=2003-03-18&HC=1
Turkey's parliament might reconsider letting U.S. troops use its territory if war with Iraq breaks out, according to Turkish media reports. Turkish officials, including the president, prime minister, foreign minister and armed forces chief, met Monday to discuss the possible war with Iraq.
After the meeting, a government spokesman said, "Turkey must fulfill its obligations to its allies," setting off a flood of speculation that parliament would vote on allowing U.S. troops to use Turkish bases. Parliament has a regular session scheduled for Tuesday, but it was not known whether the troops issue would be on the agenda. Ankara had been under intense pressure to allow U.S. forces to use its territory to open a northern front against Iraq. Parliament rejected a measure this month that would have let the United States base 62,000 troops in the country.
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President Bush Makes it Official
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11489&D=2003-03-19&HC=1
March 18, 2003
Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:)
Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
Sincerely,
GEORGE W. BUSH
**********************************************
Turkey opens airspace but blocks airbases
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11522&D=2003-03-20&HC=1
The Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, confirmed last night that he will ask parliament to allow the US overflight rights for a war on Iraq but to deny the Americans use of their bases in Turkey. In a move scuppering plans for a heavily armoured "northern front" against Saddam Hussein, it is expected that the vote, due today, would not even allow US planes to refuel on Turkish soil.
The new motion will also include a request for parliament to authorise sending Turkish troops to northern Iraq where it is feared Iraqi Kurds may try to win independence, fuelling separatist sentiment among the 15 million-strong Kurdish population in Turkey. Iraqi Kurdish groups, meeting in Ankara, reiterated yesterday that such a move would be incendiary and warned of Turkish intervention sparking clashes with local forces.
Under the proposed vote, the US would not be able to use Incirlik airbase, a facility that houses 50 US fighters used to patrol the no-fly zone over Iraq and a key hub in the Afghan conflict. Asked whether parliament's authorisation would include the right to use Turkish airbases, Mr Erdogan replied: "No, none of these are included." Last night Ankara said the possible basing of US combat troops on Turkish soil would be discussed at a later date.
The use of Turkish airspace is a far cry from the crucial role Washington hoped its ally would play in any military action. Attacking from Turkey could have made a war swifter and, for US soldiers, potentially less bloody. A US official said the Muslim state now no longer qualified for the $15bn aid package agreed after weeks of intensive bargaining. Instead, it is believed, Washington has pledged to prop up Turkey's troubled economy through international institutions such as the IMF. Local financial markets tumbled in early trading yesterday, and stocks fell by almost 8%.
Even opposition parliamentarians, who yesterday vowed to reject the new resolution, expressed relief that the US deployment drama was finally over. "Turkey's relationship with the United States goes back 50 years to the Korean war," Abdulkadir Ates, a prominent opposition politician, said. "One incident shouldn't jeopardise that."
But political analysts beg to differ. Many said the ruling Islamic-orientated Justice and Development party had made Turkey pay a heavy price for its clumsy handling of the affair. Although it has not been ruled out that Turkey could still be used at a future stage of a war, most complained it was unlikely Ankara would be able to strike a deal of the kind previously reached. "What has happened is disastrous for Turkey... Its bargaining power has been nullified because the US has gone with other plans," Ilnur Cevink, a leading commentator, said. A US official said: "They're insisting on preserving their right in principle to go in but we've told the Turks this should not be their first option. As a possibility it is cause for great concern."
Turkey Delays Opening Airspace Again
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11635&D=2003-03-21&HC=1
Turkish airspace remains closed Friday to U.S. and British warplanes, as Turkish and U.S. officials work to resolve Ankara's demand that its troops be allowed to enter northern Iraq. Negotiations have entered a second day in Ankara, after the two sides held talks through the night in the Turkish capital without reaching an agreement. Turkey says it needs a military presence in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq to prevent a possible influx of refugees into southeastern Turkey. But the United States is firmly opposed, fearing conflict between Turkish troops and Iraqi Kurd forces and a disruption to the U.S. campaign against Saddam Hussein.
Ankara is also asking the United States to provide information on the type of planes, their missions and destination ahead of overflights. U.S. officials are reported to consider the degree of detail excessive.
The Turkish parliament voted Thursday to allow U.S. overflights, but turned down a U.S. military request to use Turkish bases for refueling and as a launching point for air strikes against Iraq.
Ziyal: U.S. Ambassador Does Not Bring Message Which Will End The Problem
U.S. Ambassador in Ankara Robert Pearson did not bring any message which will end the problem between Turkey and the United States pertaining to opening of air corridor and entrance of Turkish soldiers in Northern Iraq. Diplomatic sources said Pearson did not bring a message which would end the problem during his 10-minute meeting with Foreign Ministry Undersecretary Ugur Ziyal. Ankara was waiting for a response from Washington regarded with opening of air corridor and entrance of Turkish soldiers in Northern Iraq.
Turkey fails to open airspace
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11613&D=2003-03-21&HC=1
Turkey has delayed opening its airspace to US aircraft because of disagreements over its military role in northern Iraq.
The Turkish parliament gave consent for the overflights on Thursday, but overnight talks between US and Turkish officials failed to resolve key issues. "We have taken a break in talks with the US because there are major brick walls snags both concerning airspace use and movement of Turkish troops into Iraq," a Foreign Ministry official told the Associated Press news agency. Talks are due to resume on Friday evening.
The US does not want Turkish forces to enter Iraq, fearing possible clashes with the local Kurdish forces. Large numbers of Turkish troops are reported to have massed on the border. Press reports say some units have already crossed over.
Pentagon Abandons Turkey Deployment Plan
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11691&D=2003-03-22&HC=1
After weeks of waiting off Turkey's coast, dozens of U.S. ships carrying weaponry for the Army's 4th Infantry Division have been redirected to the Persian Gulf.
...
The redirected cargo ships are to begin arriving off the coast of Kuwait about March 30, one official said. All the ships would arrive by about April 10.
Kurdish leaders step up war of words with Turkey
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11715&D=2003-03-23&HC=1
Kurdish leaders yesterday accused Turkey of delaying the long-awaited northern offensive by US forces to topple Saddam Hussein. "The Americans are so frustrated with the Turks it is unbelievable," said Hoshyar Zebari, a Kurdish leader, yesterday after talks with American and Turkish officials in Ankara.
In one incident the US was particularly angered when its strike aircraft were unable to give prompt support to a combined unit of US special forces and peshmerga (Kurdish soldiers) involved in a firefight with the Iraqi army, according to sources in Washington.
**********************************************
Belgium warns Turkey not to enter Iraq
http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=11786&D=2003-03-24&HC=1
Belgium has issued a warning to Turkey no to misuse the war as an opportunity to invade Iraq. Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt joined Germany's Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer in threatening Turkey with trouble within NATO if the Turkish army enters the Kurdish region of Iraq, local media reported Monday. Rumours have been circulating that Turkish troops entered Iraq to subdue the Kurds. Belgian Foreign Minister Louis Michel said that Turkish interference would jeopardize the country's ambition to join the European Union. Verhofstadt said that Belgian support for the possible defence of Turkey could be withdrawn if Turkey enters Iraq.
...Sorry, I couldn't resist adding that last one...
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And we haven't even BUGUN to adreess the fallout: the unpacified Sunni Triangle...
One thing you both seem to be assuming is that Turkey wants to "be back on board". Where does that come from? They moved away from us - and they're not coming back, folks. They're now an Islamic-run democracy - whatever the fuck that is. Given their track record thus far, I'd say it's not only a mess, but utterly and completely an untrustworthy mess.
Oh well, these tiny little disagreements are the stuff of life, I guess. I wonder, what's the stuff of death? Specifically the dead US soldiers due to Turkey's "Oops!"... Just brush it off cuz they wanna play nice while it suits them?
My hat's off to you - you're a LOT nicer about it than I am.
#10
Sorry I didn't have as much time to read it all as you had to put it together. But I hold France as responsible for the deaths of those troops as Turkey. And I'd count in a lot that have died since the conclusion of major hostilities since they result form the 4ID not being able to deal with the Sunnis wholesale during combat. So what do you want to do about France? And Germany?
It's good to rant to get it out of the system so it doesn't corrupt your rational mind when it'sÃÂ time to plan.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/06/2005 11:38 Comments ||
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#11
I was in traffic court once and listened to the judge I was about to face uphold a ticket on a guy who had been rear-ended in the left turn lane. His ticket was for Failure to Yield - when he was knocked into oncoming traffic after being hit. You see, the logic was that he had already turned his wheels to make the left turn. The "judge" reasoned that this made HIM culpable, not the idiot that crashed into him and sent him careering into the other cars.
Blaming France is the same twisted logic applied to my assertion regards Turkey, bro.
Turkey had the choice to allow us the courtesy of passage, customary among allies. They did not. I would like to clarify one thing - it's the leadership that I despise, just as with France and Germany. Their leaders are the assholes who created the rifts we have with them. If they dump the Islamic shits, then we'll see who they replace them with and whether or not we can deal with them with any confidence. The Turkish people? Just like me and you. Same for the Germans. The French, lol, well I'll take JFM and Anon5089 - not too crazy 'bout the rest.
We can disagree. I laid out the entire unbelievable duplicitous sequence to demonstrate that, as allies, Erdogan's Govt isn't worth warm spit, that's all. That's what I should do, make my case, if it's what I believe, no? I'm cool. Are you?
#12
Yup. I doubt anybody agrees about everything. I think this one is a close call.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/06/2005 12:02 Comments ||
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#13
Quick followup question: if we are to act in US (and allies') interests, where is it actually an important US interest to pretend we're all palsy-walsy again with Turkey? Personally, I don't see much they can do for us, specifically.
I'm not saying I mind doing them a favor or two, such as helping where we can with the EU thingy, but we certainly can't expect any quid pro quo, given their perfromance thus far, and what would it be, anyway?
Hell, I want to slice off about 1/3 of their country and give it to the Kurds. Think they'll go for that, heh?
#14
Well, I have friends who command units in the 4th ID, so I'm pretty familiar with that runup, .com.
The strategic importance of Turkey to the region is hard to overstate. I had a conversation with a senior government minister from before Erdogan's party took office and he was very clear about water as a basis of their potential power re: Iran, Iraq and other countries to the south and west of them.
And while from time to time we have people swagger through the 'Burg suggesting that any Turkish dams could be blown up, that ignores the larger issue - namely that it is in our own strategic interests for Iraq to succeed as a democratic and economically prospering country. IMO encouraging a breakaway Kurdish state is NOT in our interests at this point.
It's an iffy thing to work with Erdogan. Never said or thought otherwise. But way too often IMO people who frequent the comments section here get wrapped up in the littler picture and ignore - or are oblivious to - the bigger one.
The role of Turkish agriculture and industry as a member or associate of the EU is one of those longer range things that will have a bigger impact on the region than the inability to take the Sunni Triangle from above and below. And yes - that latter opinion is backed in conversations with me by some commanders who've fought in the triangle.
#16
I think the palsy-walsy stuff doesn't have much, if anything to do with Iraq. I think Turkey's a sharp stick that Bush occasionally pushes into Chirac's rump, or maybe into the EU rump as a whole. I'm sure he'd dump Erdogan/Gul in a flash if there was a semi-legit opportunity to replace them with people who were at least less clumsily duplicitous.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/06/2005 12:44 Comments ||
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#17
Your point re: Chiraq and the EU is a good one, Fred, but I still think there's a bigger move than that going on.
No doubt we could do without Erdogan and Gul. I'm less sure we want to ditch Turkey as a whole. Their effect on Iraq is a concern, but mostly in the context of the overall picture for the region.
We were pretty aggressive in the 'Stans and Russia and China are pushing back. We'll keep some influence & presence there, lose some - inevitable, given the geography and their location.
But Turkey's another and more pressing matter - especially if Putin loses power to the harder KGBites who are pressing him closely. But even if not. To paraphrase the SECDEF, you play geopolitical chess with the countries you have not the ones you wish you could create.
At least until/as you try to influence the shape they take going forward.
That's the strategic move in the region IMO. How much can be done with Turkey remains to be seen, especially WRT Erdogan's gang. But the effort needs to be made -- and it is not, contrary to suggestions occasionally made here and elsewhere, a sign of wussiness. Rather it's a sign of taking the broader/longer view with the full knowledge that the next 20-30 years are going to be as tumultuous and full of danger / opportunity as any we've seen in centuries.
#18
What Turkey did to us was out-and-out betrayal of the most obvious sort imaginable. They sold us out for what they probably perceived to be a helthy application of grease to the EU-joining skids. Whether or not this turns out for them is immaterial. They betrayed us in our hour of need, and we continue to pay the price both with the blood of our soldiers and also in less obvious ways:
What would Bush's position be in terms of accomplishing US goals both foriegn and domestic if there wasn't the millstone of the Sunni Triangle resistance sapping his strength?
I place Turkey's betrayal higher than even that of the French who were, in the end, acting predictably and true to form even in scope it exceeded anything they had done previously. But the Turks caused critical time to slip away, and more importantly, drastically reduced our strategic options at the last minute, DIRECTLY resulting in the Sunni triangle resistance.
And one can't see these actions in the interpersonal terms that international relationships are sometimes reduced to in a kind of anthropomorphic shorthand -- our "friends" made a "mistake" cuz they're only "human", and we should be big enough to "forgive" them. These events transpired between NATIONS, not individuals. Per Bismark, nations don't have friends, only interests. Hopefully there is a kind of governmental deep memory that has grasped the nature of Turkey and will always retain it, regardless of which party is in power.
#19
Good discussion, folks. I have some questions and comments:
1. I know Condi made favorable statements for Turkey to be allowed to join the EU. What is the point? Is it a throw-away line or is it a statement to curry favor with Turkey? It seems to me that the issue of Turkey joining the EU is between the EU and Turkey, and is really none of the business of the US. I would think that EU nations don't want us mucking about in their own issues, just a we do not want the EU messing in the internal affairs of the states and the US federal government.
2. Turkey really shafted the US during OIF. We wound up with a hammer without an anvil, and it cost us AND Iraqis dearly, which included lives lost. Basically we were jacked around and shook down for money. That is were we were but here we are now. We must deal with Turkey and not be vindictive. Their actions will cost them dearly in trust. We will have to deal with them, because they are important neighbors to Iraq. The main thing is that we do not buy the farm again from them. No more payoffs. We will work with them, but we will not trust them. But, hey, that is the nature of the Middle East, eh? Comes with the territory.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/06/2005 18:07 Comments ||
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A former French secret agent has accused President Jacques Chirac of ordering him to run a private secret service to channel ransom money to hostage-takers in Lebanon and Bosnia.
Jean-Charles Marchiani, 62, also a former MEP, made the claims at the start of his trial this week for allegedly receiving 1.3 million euros (£880,000) in kickbacks from military contractors.
Investigators want to know why and how Marchiani amassed several million euros in his Swiss bank accounts. Prosecutors say some of the money came from an illicit commission paid by the German company, Renk, to secure a contract supplying tank gearboxes.
But Marchiani claims that the money was transferred to his accounts to set up an "intelligence outfit" on the orders of the former interior minister, Charles Pasqua in the mid-1980s, when Mr Chirac was prime minister. "It was a system put in place at the request of Charles Pasqua in place of the official secret services," said Marchiani.
Marchiani said he used the funds to secure the release of hostages in Lebanon, held by Hizbollah in 1986. "We did not collaborate with the French secret services, we worked in their place," he said.
The official French line is that Paris has never paid for the release of hostages.
But we all know better.
Two years later, on the eve of presidential elections, which Mr Chirac lost to François Mitterrand, Marchiani went to the prime minister's office. "I asked Chirac: 'Shall we continue the outfit regardless?' He had a moment's hesitation, then said: 'Keep it going'," Marchiani told the court.
Marchiani claims that the parallel intelligence service was also behind the release of French jet pilots held hostage in Bosnia in 1995, shortly after Mr Chirac was elected president. "Jacques Chirac sent me. He knew me for ages," he said.
As president, Mr Chirac would not be expected to testify in court. But his former cabinet secretary, Maurice Ulricht, categorically denied the claims. "Jean-Charles Marchiani, is seeking through a real fact - the liberation of hostages in Lebanon - to justify a financial and intelligence network that never existed," he said in a written statement.
Another former prime minister, Edouard Balladur, also denied any knowledge of the alleged parallel intelligence service.
"Lies! All lies!"
When asked to respond, Marchiani said to do so would break the official secrets act. "I am bound by it; I cannot go into detail," he said. "Ask the government to waive the defence secrets rules and I will tell you everything."
Yves Bonnet, the former head of France's secret service, the DST, painted a highly unflattering portrait of Marchiani, describing him as an "intelligence crook."
And we thought he was just a crook.
The trial continues.
Posted by: Captain America ||
10/06/2005 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Well, it's obvious that ransom(s) were paid - and somebody had to be the bagman. That Chirac let his case go to trial is the eyebrow raiser, here. It may mean he's just a regular crook, not Chirac's secret secret spy-master. On the other hand, every time Chirac's name comes up, he turns out to be guilty of some self-serving or duplicitous act.
#4
I'm not so sure, Ship, how do you get lower than whale shit, which is where Bubba is.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
10/06/2005 18:35 Comments ||
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#5
Freeh seems to be trying. If the job was so bad he should have quit. If it wasn't so bad, he should shut up. If he's worried about history he should publish when Clinton's dead. If it's money, then he's no different than Clinton, just poorer.
#7
Well, "stay in so that he couldn't appoint someone even worse" is an interesting reason to stay on...
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
10/06/2005 19:32 Comments ||
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#8
That's a point to some extent, but if I really felt the democratically elected leader of the US was so bad I had to stay in office for that reason I would also be working with the vast multitutde of similarly minded people to overthrow him through force.
#11
when the Virginia CSI find Louis Freeh's crushed skull - the two hands they'll get fingerprints from will be female....and the high heel marks will be wide - to accomodate thankles
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/06/2005 20:35 Comments ||
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Thereâs no doubt that House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas) would rather not be the target of zealous prosecutor. But if he must be such a target, DeLay is probably lucky that the prosecutor in question is Travis County, Texas, District Attorney Ronnie Earle.
In the case so far â the latest news came Monday, when Earle got a grand jury, on its first day, before it had a chance to get a cup of coffee, to indict DeLay on money-laundering charges â Earle has shown a strange enthusiasm in pursuing his case. More than anything else, Earle seems motivated by a desire to educate the country about his belief that corporate campaign contributions constitute an evil influence in American politics. Just look at what DeLay defenders call the âdollars for dismissalsâ scheme.
As part of the DeLay investigation, in September 2004 Earle indicted eight corporations on charges of making illegal political contributions.
But then he approached several of them with a deal. According to a source close to one of those companies, Sears, Earle offered to drop the charges if Sears agreed to give hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Center for Deliberative Democracy at Stanford University for the purpose of producing a program designed to educate the public on the evils of corporate contributions. âThey asked for an outrageous amount of money,â one Sears source said last summer â especially since the maximum penalty Sears would have faced had it lost the case would have been $20,000.
But Earle wanted to get his message to the American public. âMy concern has been that there needed to be a conversation about the role of corporations in American democracy,â he said a few months ago. âHow do you do that? I think it is vitally important to the future of the country that there be a discussion of this concept.â
Sears refused to give money to Stanford, suggesting an alternative program â the same sort of thing â at the University of Texas in Austin. Earle agreed, and Sears turned over $100,000. The agreement between Sears and Earle says, âThe defendant, after discussions with the district attorney, has decided to financially support a nonpartisan, balanced and publicly informative program or series of programs relating to the role of corporations in American democracy.â Sears also acknowledged that corporate contributions âconstitute a genuine threat to democracy.â Three other companies â Cracker Barrel, Questerra and Diversified Collection Services â made similar deals with Earle.
That was then. Now, thereâs even more evidence that Earle is using the DeLay investigation as part of an educational crusade.
For the past two years, Earle has allowed two Texas filmmakers to follow him around as he conducted the investigation that led to the recent indictments. The resulting film, âThe Big Buy,â features long interviews with Earle â DeLay did not cooperate â and, once more, Earle focuses on his pet cause.
âThe root of the evil of the corporate and large-monied-interest domination of politics is money,â Earle says in the film. âThis is in the Bible. This isnât rocket science. The root of all evil truly is money, especially in politics. People talk about how money is the motherâs milk of politics. Well, itâs the devilâs brew. And what weâve got to do, weâve got to turn off the tap.â
And just to make it completely clear that Earle considers corporate money in politics a very, very, bad thing, at another point in the movie he calls it âevery bit as insidious as terrorism.â
Now, perhaps you, too, believe that Searsâs (probably legal) $25,000 contribution to a DeLay-related political action committee was as bad as Sept. 11. Or perhaps you donât. But in Earleâs mind, apparently, itâs all connected.
âWhatâs funny is, the regular run-of-the-mill work of a prosecutorâs office,â he says in the film, âwhich sounds like a horror story â murder, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, child abuse, these horrible things people do to each other â itâs hard to see the connection between the abuse of the democratic process and dealing crack, for example, or robbing a 7-Eleven, but there is a connection.â
It would be nice if Earle would explain what that is, but he doesnât. And his words become even more inexplicable when one considers that Texas is one of just 18 states that bar corporate contributions to campaigns (although corporations can contribute to the administration expenses of political action committees). That means 32 states do not have such a ban. So is that a crime as serious as murder? Rape? Robbery?
Donât say that to Earle. His performance in âThe Big Buyâ sends an ominous warning to anyone who might disagree with his particular vision.
âItâs important that we forgive those who come to us in a spirit of contrition and the desire for forgiveness,â Earle says. âBut if they donât, then God help them.â
Posted by: Steve ||
10/06/2005 11:49 ||
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#1
That flaming a-hole doesn't even get the Bible quotation right.
It's the LOVE of money that's the root of all evil.
#2
The sentence is typcially translated as follows: "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils." For those who care, the Greek all kinds of evils (bad things)reads, "ðáÃôùà ôùà êáêùÃ". The older translation "all evil" ignores the Greek plural. The sentence has nothing to do with campaign contributions. The context has to do with people who so strongly desire to become rich that they sacrifice everything to be rich. The warning is that desiring to be can destroy a person, i.e., greed can lead to bad ends. Money itself is amoral.
The principle has some apparent application to Earle, in that he is apparently so greedy for DeLay's scalp, that he is compromising the justice system to achieve his end.
#4
Anybody remember Ronnie Earle's indictment of Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson for campaign violations about 10 years ago? The presiding judge threw out the charges. I think it is a vendetta against DeLay's crucial role in Texas redistricting so that congressional representatives more accurately reflect the vote. For years, via gerrymandering, Texas had a majority of Democratic congressmen even as the voters, as a state whole, vote Republican. Anybody remember the Texas legislature Democrats fleeing the state (twice) to avoid having to vote on the new congressional districts?
Just by indicting Delay, Earle gets DeLay to step down as Majority Leader (House rules). But vendettas go both ways. Start by zeroing out Austin's road construction funds. Let them stew in the summer with half finished highways and overpasses and construction firms aching to tear out Earle's throat. Add to the pain each year. The Repubs control the purse strings/pain dial. Use it.
Posted by: ed ||
10/06/2005 14:41 Comments ||
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#5
A sane federal prosecutor could go after Earle for violating DeLay's Constitutional right to due process. The grand jury shopping sounds like prosecutorial abuse.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
10/06/2005 15:26 Comments ||
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#7
Earle has a history of this political thing. He needs a slap or a criminal inditement with teeth for the way that he abuses his prosecutorial powers. People in that position can ruin people's lives on a whim. Anyone out there in legal land want to take on Earle? ACLU?
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/06/2005 19:16 Comments ||
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#8
It's all greek to me.
Posted by: Aris the K ||
10/06/2005 19:19 Comments ||
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#1
Watta maroon. The decision to invade Iraq was one of the most debated decisions this country ever made. We argued about it for over a year. We had demonstrations. We had giant puppets. We had horses' asses of every political persuasion on the TV. Everyone in this country, serious and sober, idiot and delusional, had an opinion and had their say.
What in the world is this man talking about?
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/06/2005 11:36 Comments ||
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#2
And we also had this little thing called a congressional vote - and most of your friends voted FOR it, lol.
It's not what he's talking about, it's who he's talking to.
Democrats do not lose elections; elections are stolen from them. If Democrats come out on the short end of a political debate, then the debate never happened.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
10/06/2005 11:55 Comments ||
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#4
How many of you, I wonder, have heard a friend or a family member in the last few years remark that it's almost as if America has entered "an alternate universe"?
GORE< YOUR AN IDIOT!!! None of us have heard that!! Only you have entered an alternate universe!! It's called the TWILIGHT ZONE!!!!
#7
he usually manages to find a record cold day in a city to do a speech on global warming....AlGore - man with the tin ear
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/06/2005 14:11 Comments ||
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#8
Wonder who is dumb enough to still pay to listen to this windbag? Not really welcome in Tennessee or anyplace else south of the Mason Dixon line, considered a poseur who, through incompetence, fumbled away the Democrats' divine right to rule, Big Al is the Democrats' equivalent of Louis XVI with Tipper playing Marie Antoinette.
#10
Reconsidering the Democrat = Imperial France analogy:
Bill Clinton = Louis XIV the Sun King, "I am the State"
Al Gore = Louis XV, "After me, the Deluge"
John Kerry = Louis XVI, "Why me?"
#13
How many of you, I wonder, have heard a friend or a family member in the last few years remark that it's almost as if America has entered "an alternate universe"?
Not only have I heard it, I've said it. I've often thought that, since 9/11, the world has resembled that in Murray Leinster's "Sideways in Time" (1934), in which a natural catastrophe causes the surface of the Earth to become checkered with alternate timelines.
So we have the spectacle of free-wheeling libertines cheering on repressive 7th-century religious barbarians. We have a world in which people cry "Free the Women of Afghanistan!", until somebody actually does, and then it's "Imperialism!"
We hear that opposing tyranny only breeds more tyranny, but so does cajoling tyranny, bribing tyranny, and starving tyranny. Apparently the only thing that actually works against tyranny is marching in the streets with giant puppets.
On the other hand, it's a universe where the US has bases in the heart of Soviet Asia, and Warsaw Pact members belong to NATO.
Posted by: Red Dog ||
10/06/2005 18:50 Comments ||
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#17
I shuuuuuuudddddddder to think what would have happened if a few hundred of the dims who moved from NYC or Boston to California in the 90's had moved to Florida instead. If Al had been a Kennedy, old Joe would probably have had a labotomy done on him. Actually, maybe he did anyway?
AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN: A Travis County grand jury last week refused to indict former U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay as prosecutors raced to salvage their felony case against the Sugar Land Republican.
In a written statement Tuesday, Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle acknowledged that prosecutors presented their case to three grand juries â not just the two they had discussed â and one grand jury refused to indict DeLay. When questions arose about whether the state's conspiracy statute applied to the first indictment returned last Wednesday, prosecutors presented a new money-laundering charge to second grand jury on Friday because the term of the initial grand jury had expired.
Working on its last day Friday, the second grand jury refused to indict DeLay. Normally, a "no-bill" document is available at the courthouse after such a decision. No such document was released Tuesday. Earle's statement on Tuesday said he took money-laundering and conspiracy charges to a third grand jury on Monday after prosecutors learned of new evidence over the weekend.
Grand Jury shopping, kept looking till he got the verdict he wanted
Um, indictment, not verdict; he's never going to get the verdict he wants.
Lawyers for DeLay immediately called foul after Earle released his statement after 5 p.m. Tuesday. "What could have happened over the weekend?" said Austin lawyer Bill White, who represents DeLay. "They investigate for three years and suddenly they have new evidence? That's beyond the pale!" White suggested that Earle released his statement Tuesday because he feared reporters would learn about the no-bill.
In his statement, Earle said he would have no further comment because grand jury proceedings are secret.
Not so secret for your film crew, eh Ronnie?
Simple equation: no indictment means no movie.
DeLay's legal team, led by Houston lawyer Dick DeGuerin, has been taking to the airwaves to portray Earle as an incompetent prosecutor who is pursuing DeLay only as a political vendetta. "It just gets worse and worse," DeGuerin said. "He's gone to three grand juries over four days. Where does it stop?"
The first grand jury, impaneled by state District Judge Mike Lynch, a Democrat, had spent six months hearing evidence that Republican groups had violated a state ban against spending corporate money in the 2002 campaigns, including the exchange of $190,000 of corporate money for the same amount of campaign donations from the Republican National Committee. The grand jury indicted DeLay on charges of conspiring to violate the state election laws, a state-jail felony. As DeLay's lawyers waited to raise an issue whether the conspiracy law applied to the election code, prosecutors apparently learned of the issue.
According to Earle's Tuesday statement, prosecutors presented "some evidence" to a second grand jury impaneled by District Judge Julie Kocurek, a Republican, "out of an abundance of caution." It's unclear whether those grand jurors refused to indict DeLay on money-laundering charges, a first-degree felony, because of the evidence or because it was given to them on the last day of their 90-day term. Earle did not say in his statement what new evidence surfaced over the weekend. White, who said he doubts the evidence exists, challenged Earle to reveal it. Prosecutors also called Lynch's grand jurors over the weekend to poll them on how they would have voted on money-laundering charges if they had been given the chance.
Then prosecutors tried again Monday with a new grand jury. When Monday's grand jury, impaneled by District Judge Brenda Kennedy, a Democrat, reported for its first day, Earle was there to ask them to indict the second most powerful Texan in Washington. About four hours later, the new felony indictments were returned.
They barely had time to take their seats. And they're supposed to hear about a complex case and vote an indictment? Nope, no agenda there.
DeGuerin said he assumes Earle persuaded the third grand jury to act by telling them about the telephone poll of the grand jurors who had spent six months on the case. "That's outrageous," DeGuerin said. "That's criminal."
Posted by: Steve ||
10/06/2005 09:41 ||
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#2
Many prosecutors get that way, especially when they retain the office for a long time. That's why we have a Bill of Rights. I trust Mr. DeLay also knows how to use the long arm of the law on Mr. Earle now that he has so egregiously overstepped the bounds of propriety. Think of the many who suffer equally at the hands of similar prosecutors without his resources.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/06/2005 11:11 Comments ||
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#3
DeLay's legal team, led by Houston lawyer Dick DeGuerin, has been taking to the airwaves to portray Earle as an incompetent prosecutor who is pursuing DeLay only as a political vendetta.
Well, they're certainly doing a good job of it -- even Earle's going along with it.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
10/06/2005 11:38 Comments ||
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#5
The thing t hat stood out through the whole article to me was the Judges party affiliation. The grand jury that didn't indict was impaneled by a Republican, the other two that did indict were impaneled by Democrats. Coincidence?
Posted by: Charles ||
10/06/2005 15:13 Comments ||
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#6
Had a discusion with an investigator for the local prosecuters office one day.I ask him isn't it part of your job to discover the truth and seek justice,His response was"No my job is to put people in jail".This lead me to the conclusion that truth a justice is irrelavent,convictions are what is wanted.Seems to be the case here.
#7
That's why we have defence attorneys. In the civil law system, every body is looking for "truth and justice". And the defendant gets screwed. At least in our system there's one guy on your side and everybody else is out to get you.
Over 400,000 drug addicts were arrested in Iran during the past two and a half years, said Tuesday an Iranian official. In a press statement, the Chairman of Iran Narcotics Control Headquarters (INCH) Brigadier Mahdi Aboyi said during the same period 177,000 drug-dealers were arrested, adding that 23,496 of them were apprehended during confrontations along the Iranian-Afghan common-borders. While saying that authorities had managed to eradicate an international drug-trafficking network in Bushehr and arresting five of its members, he pointed out that 369 drug dealers were killed and 419 tons of drugs were confiscated during that period.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/06/2005 00:00 ||
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Iran has the greatest number and greatest proportion of heroin addicts in the world. Mainly due to its proximity to and long border with afghanistan. Saying that, mind you, living under the mad mullahs you can understand the temptation to obliterate reality in a cloud of opiates
THE two police handlers of Cairo's old Ramadan cannon were seriously hurt as they struggled to sound the traditional boom for the end of the daily dawn-to-dusk fast of the Muslim holy month, police said overnight.
Explosions and flying body parts are a Ramadan tradition
Ali al-Sayed, 50, lost an arm and colleague Al-Sayed Mohammed Hussein, 31, lost an eye as well as suffering serious burns when the cannon ball exploded at sunset, they said.
At least it went off on time
The ball blew up as the two men tried to dislodge it after the cannon failed to fire.
"Ali, take another wack at it, I think it moved that .......KABOOM! ......time..."
The 100-year-old cannon is kept at the Citadel of Cairo where it comes into use for only 30 days a year during the holy month of Ramadan to signal the end of the day-long fast.
Posted by: Steve ||
10/06/2005 15:17 ||
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#1
What's an Islamic celebration w/o some sort of bloodshed...
#4
True, Ship. I know two people who use Artillery pieces that were made during the Civil War. They DO NOT fire anything but powder. It's too dangerous. Maybe we could give them a Darwin Award Honorable Mention.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
10/06/2005 18:26 Comments ||
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Long piece on how the EU and Brazil will pry the top-level control of the internet from the U.S. But of course it won't lead to any censorship, taxation, or meddling. No, no, certainly not!
Unfortunate part is that they'll likely succeed.
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/06/2005 11:30 ||
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#1
Good for them, create your own internet and control whatever part you want. I will bet that the U.S. will retain control over it's resources and let the others flounder. The first elected official that votes in favor of this might as well kiss his political career goodbye.
#2
It certainly will be interesting for multi-nationals that use the inet.
otoh, it may cut down on my e-mail from nigeria.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/06/2005 12:04 Comments ||
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#3
Much to the distress of the US, the idea proved popular. Its representative hit back, stating that it "can't in any way allow any changes" that went against the "historic role" of the US in controlling the top level of the internet.
But the refusal to budge only strengthened opposition, and now the world's governments are expected to agree a deal to award themselves ultimate control. It will be officially raised at a UN summit of world leaders next month and, faced with international consensus, there is little the US government can do but acquiesce.
But will this move mean, as the US ambassador David Gross argued, that "even on technical details, the industry will have to follow government-set policies, UN-set policies"?
No, according to Nitin Desai, the UN's special adviser on internet governance. "There is clearly an acceptance here that governments are not concerned with the technical and operational management of the internet. Standards are set by the users."
And how would they do that? LOL! Asshats will scream and kick their little feet. We could just create a US-only internet and shut out their servers....how much good would that do for anyone?
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/06/2005 12:08 Comments ||
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#4
I think they'll try to have an internet that does not accept connections from the US, isolating us. It'll work, too, if they can get everyone else to agree. But that won't happen on the first pass, certainly. Maybe, however, if our Int'l "standing" continues to fall, there will, indeed, be a TranziNet and a USNet. Since the great preponderance of online data resides here, in the US, they'd better start stealing now to stock their servers up for the cold season ahead. As the studies show, the research data, medical, tech, et al, originates in large degree from the US. We're the world's seed corn, at the moment. What will they eat next spring, I wonder?
#5
Should be titles "How To Fragment the Internet", as that's what will happen. You'll have 2, 3, 4 networks, all with their own name spaqces, and controlled by different groups.
#6
It's all in the name of $ and power: a global tax on the net and information-screening by the dictators and insecure. The UN is in on this of course, for both reasons.
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/06/2005 13:26 Comments ||
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#7
The internet - managed by those who brought us the Oil-for-Palaces and food-for-nookie programs.
#10
The internet is not controlled by anybody. Though the root servers are in the US, name servers are located throughout the world. Those are the servers users connect to get around the net, and ther US does not control whether the name servers accept updates from the root servers.
More power to any dictatorships/wannabes want to slice off their own little bit of nirvana. All I ask is that the US impose a tariff to access any US data goodies on those that do so.
Posted by: ed ||
10/06/2005 14:17 Comments ||
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#11
Question: How much will the deal actually DO, as opposed to put on paper? (i.e. what's the status of ICANN, and what can Congress do.)
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
10/06/2005 14:28 Comments ||
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#12
Good idea Ed. I think that the Europeans should be careful what they ask for. They have never grasped the law of unintended consequences.
#13
I think the Europeans know what will happen so, given their irrelevance to the disposition of the issue, they decided to join with the turd world to get brownie points.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
10/06/2005 14:31 Comments ||
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#14
But will this move mean, as the US ambassador David Gross argued, that "even on technical details, the industry will have to follow government-set policies, UN-set policies"?
No, according to Nitin Desai, the UN's special adviser on internet governance. "There is clearly an acceptance here that governments are not concerned with the technical and operational management of the internet. Standards are set by the users."
Hendon is also adamant: "The really important point is that the EU doesn't want to see this change as bringing new government control over the internet. Governments will only be involved where they need to be and only on issues setting the top-level framework."
#15
We should also note that the World Summit on the Information Society is being held in that beacon of international freedom and respect for human rights, Tunisia.
#19
Heh. From http://www.zigguratofdoom.com/?p=923, via Daily Pundit:
In other news, these world governments voted themselves three unicorns, two fairies, a troll, a hundred bajillion lollipops, and everyone liking each other.
Look, Iâm not saying the DoC having control over the root servers is the best solution, but if these twits think they are going to wrestle it out of the DoCâs hands, theyâre delusional
#20
I'd like to see where the ACLU stands on this one. I can imagine the free speech violations that might occur. The UN or whoever could monitor each computer. They would be able to dictate what's appropriate speech on the net. Could a country be sanctioned because another country was critical of Islam?? What if you were critical of the UN??
#21
It all comes down to cnesorship and control of content. The elites in the rest of the world can't abide the freedom of communication that is the internet. It bypasses all their carefully constructed controls of information. Information is power.
I will still have access to much of what I use the internet for even if cut off from the rest of the world so I could care less. Enjoy your "internet" UN. No one here will use it.
#22
I meant that as an honest question. How will the deal actually, in a meaningful way (towards the censorship intent) actually render "real" control of any portion of the Internet?
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
10/06/2005 16:12 Comments ||
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#23
Currently regimes (China, Saudi,..) use firewalls to filter adresses and content. It is a time consuming and compute intensive process. But dissidents can register new domains as old ones are firewalled. By having control of the registration process, they can make it harder for "unhealthy" information to jump around the net. Also by threathening to cut off access to domains with content that they disagree with (by either disappearing or rerouting their IP adresses), they can get sites (e.g. groups.yahoo.com, geocities) to self censor content.
Posted by: ed ||
10/06/2005 17:05 Comments ||
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#24
The article is from the Guardian. I think I'll wait a little longer before I get all exercised about it.
#25
Let them build their own, they can even have their own extensions:
.comeu pronounced dot commie-you
.neteu pronounced dot net-ewwww.
or maybe they can just use .duh
Why don't they replace the WWW with 666 while they're at it.
#29
So ed, how would the deal actually allow them to seize control of the registration process?
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
10/06/2005 19:28 Comments ||
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#30
lol - thanks for the laugh/visual "Dianne"
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/06/2005 20:32 Comments ||
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#31
This whole control thing might be in the talking process, but if the UNiks and EUniks have their way, they will get control of it, at least their part. And there you go: unelected bureaucrats controlling the medium, or taxing it, etc etc. It will be attempted, as it is viewed as an attack on the US. What hurts the US is good for everyone else. And those with control will set the rules, and more freedom is NOT part of their agenda. After all, THEY know what is best for us.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
10/06/2005 23:23 Comments ||
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#32
Indeed, AP - this is about
1) Creating a means of controlling public discourse / curbing free speech - firewalling info (the bad actors don't want disseminated) for everyone, not just their own poor captive people
#33
Personally I think that control of the Internet should pass to a neutral third party. Perhaps a large software corporation that can monopolize guide the Internet in a strictly non-partisan independent manner.
Posted by: William Gates ||
10/07/2005 0:00 Comments ||
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PESHAWAR: A jirga (tribal court) in Tirah Valley has asked a "couple" to leave the area within 24 hours or be killed after an Afghan refugee married a 16-year-old boy, a former federal minister from the Khyber Agency told Daily Times on Wednesday. The refugee, Liaqat Ali, 42, paid Rs 40,000 to the parents of 16-year-old Markeen Afridi to wed him in inaccessible Tirah Valley of the Khyber Agency bordering Peshawar.
"Yes, it is true and people of the area are shocked by this gay marriage," former lawmaker Malik Waris Khan, a resident of the Khyber Agency, said. The marriage held amid usual pomp and show that was usually held to mark the wedding of a female in the tribal society, Millat Khan Afridi, an eyewitness to the marriage, was quoted as saying. "When we came to know that it was a gay marriage, many of us left the party without taking food," Afridi said.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/06/2005 00:00 ||
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They'd be welcome in Mass or SF - the Castro district, I'm sure. Of course, if they pretend publicly to be father / son, they can live anywhere in Islam with a wink and a nudge. It's being public about it that's forbidden. Islam invented "don't ask, don't tell" about a millenia ago.
HARARE - Zimbabwean police on Wednesday arrested an opposition lawmaker and at least 16 of his constituents who walked to work to protest chronic fuel shortages in the southern African nation, their lawyer told AFP.
Gilbert Shoko, the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) member of parliament for Budiriro suburb in Harare, and opposition supporters were arrested as they walked to the city centre, said Alec Muchadehama. âThey were arrested around 7:00 am and are still being held at Southerton police station,â southwest of the city centre, Muchadehama said. âAs we speak I am still trying to secure their release,â he added.
MDC spokesman Maxwell Zimuto said âthe MP was walking to work together with other people from his constituency when the police confronted them and asked them why they were walking as a group. âThey told the police they had no other means of transport because of the fuel crisis but the police said there was plenty of fuel and rounded them up saying they were demonstrating against the government.â
Any old excuse will do ...
MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai started walking to work two weeks ago in protest against the fuel shortages that have reached critical levels in recent months. Tsvangirai, who walked eight kilometres from his home in Strathaven suburb, said he had run out of fuel for his cars and vowed to continue his walk-to-work âfor as long as he does not have fuel,â his spokesman said.
Several lawmakers and party activists joined in the protest walk.
Zimbabwe has faced serious fuel shortages since 1999, but the current crunch, which has seen meandering queues at gas stations, is the worst ever. Some gas stations have been without fuel for weeks, forcing buses and private cars off the road and leaving many with no option but to walk or cycle to their workplaces. Attendants at stations in Harare said they have gone for more than a month without receiving supplies while the once-burgeoning black market and fuel stations selling the scarce commodity in foreign currency have almost dried up.
Is it time for a Rantburg Futures for the month that Zimbabwe craters?
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/06/2005 00:00 ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Over 400,000 drug addicts were arrested in Iran during the past two and a half years, said Tuesday an Iranian official. In a press statement, the Chairman of Iran Narcotics Control Headquarters (INCH) Brigadier Mahdi Aboyi said during the same period 177,000 drug-dealers were arrested, adding that 23,496 of them were apprehended during confrontations along the Iranian-Afghan common-borders. While saying that authorities had managed to eradicate an international drug-trafficking network in Bushehr and arresting five of its members, he pointed out that 369 drug dealers were killed and 419 tons of drugs were confiscated during that period.
PESHAWAR: A jirga (tribal court) in Tirah Valley has asked a "couple" to leave the area within 24 hours or be killed after an Afghan refugee married a 16-year-old boy, a former federal minister from the Khyber Agency told Daily Times on Wednesday. The refugee, Liaqat Ali, 42, paid Rs 40,000 to the parents of 16-year-old Markeen Afridi to wed him in inaccessible Tirah Valley of the Khyber Agency bordering Peshawar. 
HARARE - Zimbabwean police on Wednesday arrested an opposition lawmaker and at least 16 of his constituents who walked to work to protest chronic fuel shortages in the southern African nation, their lawyer told AFP.
