Article

2005-02-04 Britain

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Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-04 8:31:26 AM|| || Front Page|| [11139 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I said it yesterday, I'll say it again today. The provisional IRA is a marxist splinter group that broke off from the traditional IRA back in the 1970's when the old guard wouldn't go along with their philosophy of attempting to use anarchy to promote social change. They are one bunch of ugly SOB's, funded and trained back in the good old days by people such as the Libyans. So, when the IRA says they aren't responsible for this, they mean it. They disowned these crazies decades ago.

Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-04 9:49:48 AM|| 2005-02-04 9:49:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The Provisional IRA are the IRA, Weird Al. Whoever else it is you think you're referring to doesn't exist. Simply repeating your ignorant comments on this issue doesn't make them any less irrelevant.

Posted by Bulldog 2005-02-04 12:07:09 PM|| 2005-02-04 12:07:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Sorry 2. Simply repeating YOUR ignorant comments doesn't make them true either. The provos and the mainline IRA are not the same. It's called magical thinking. If I say Weird Al is ignorant, it becomes true. You see, most people outgrow that kind of thinking about the time they find out there isn't a santa claus.
I've spent a number of years studying the subject, and can refer you to any of half a dozen books on the subject, some written by people with no sympathy for the IRA whatsoever. The provos are marxist terrorists. They broke from the traditional IRA over their promotion of marxist ideology. Marxism is about as dead an issue in ireland as you could come up with. For many years irish catholics were forbidden by law to own land. It has now become a mania with them. Irish gov't figures released last october showed that in the mid 1970's, the average house in ireland sold for the equivalent of 7,800 euro. Today the average house sells for 246,000 euro. These people are going to embrace a philosophy calling for communal ownership of property? Right.

The fact that the mainline IRA is now the largest catholic party in the north, while everyone but ev eryone loathes the provos just about says it all.

Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-04 12:26:21 PM|| 2005-02-04 12:26:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Are you drunk?

Posted by Bulldog 2005-02-04 12:31:34 PM|| 2005-02-04 12:31:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 A civil well reasoned response to be sure. Back to the sandbox until you can learn to play well with others.

Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-04 12:36:43 PM|| 2005-02-04 12:36:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Look Al, I'll be honest with you. I don't enjoy discussing the IRA for a number of reasons, which I don't really feel like going into. I don't want to embarrass you, either. You are confused about the most basic facts regarding the Northern Ireland Troubles. Do some Googling and/or buy yourself some balanced books on the subject. Ditch the propaganda material.

Posted by Bulldog 2005-02-04 12:43:58 PM|| 2005-02-04 12:43:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 While I can't agree that I'm confused about the basic facts of the troubles, nor do I think that I'll get anything less than propaganda from most google searches, I can respect anyone who doesn't want to discuss it for any reason. It's a nasty subject about nasty people on both sides. I retract an apologise for anything mean-spirited I had to say and will let it go at that.
Enough said.

Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-04 12:54:26 PM|| 2005-02-04 12:54:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 One last post. I'm not an apologist or grand supporter of the IRA. I look at the irish conflicts for the same reason I study the american civil war. I find them fascinating. With apologies to the supporters of the lost cause, I don't think either produced any true heros, or if they did, the heros died early, as they usually do. After that it just got downright butt-ugly. End of story.

Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-04 1:47:17 PM|| 2005-02-04 1:47:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Al, fwiw I think your a stand up dude. Trust me, I know where your coming from wrt history of the IRA vs the provo splinter group. One can support a unified Ireland without supporting terrorism which is where I think we both are at.

I made a quote yesterday that if I was a N.I. catholic I would never give up my guns, & I standy by that. I'm not advocating violence toward the govt, brits, ect, but I am advocating a person's rights to own a firearm & be free of govt tyranny. One of the other posters took issue and tried to twist my quote into the jew/arab paleo conflict as congruent to the brit/mick conflict. Heck, I'd like to see Palestine have their own state free of terrorism and peaceful toward Israel. I'd also like to see honest citizens anywhere in the world be able to own a firearm if they so desire.

Posted by Jarhead 2005-02-04 2:03:14 PM|| 2005-02-04 2:03:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Hey, I find it quite gratifying to get quite drunk while on this site.

Posted by John Q Citizen 2005-02-04 3:46:40 PM|| 2005-02-04 3:46:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Jarhead, while I don't have any weapons that I'm aware of, I have no quarrel with reasonably responsible people owning guns. However, I do draw the line at plastique, grenades, anti-tank weapons and mines. Would you be agreeable to the IRA (regular and Provo, or whatever they choose to call themselves these days) divesting themselves of such things? The Orangemen as well? By all accounts the IRA at least have large stores of such things.

The issue, as I see it, about Northern Ireland, is that unlike in the homogeneously Catholic south, the population of N.I. is divided between the Catholics and the Scots-Irish Protestants who migrated/were brought in centuries ago to work for the English. They were available, as I understand it, as a result of the Clearances in Scotland, when the peasants and small landholders were replaced with herds of sheep, which provided wool for the looms of industrializing England. At any rate, the population in N.I. is now settled and mixed, which would not amalgamate well with the homogeneous south.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-02-04 4:11:08 PM|| 2005-02-04 4:11:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Quite a few of the Scotch protestants were given land for their services to king Billy way back when. They didn't do terribly well under british rule either, since the good church of england types didn't think much more of presbyterians than they did of catholics. The main difference was they did in fact own land, and over the years came to totally dominate the north. And no, as it stands the north would not integrate well with the south, since the constitution of the republic includes a state religion. Not protestant. Duh. I wouldn't go for it either, if I was a prod living in the north being told I had to atone for the sins of the fathers times seven. As to the other, yes everybody should cough up all their heavy weapons. That doesn't mean eveything, and realisticly neither side is going to do it anyway. As I said before, the right to buy/own/have weapons is the right to be free.

Posted by Weird Al 2005-02-04 4:28:05 PM|| 2005-02-04 4:28:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 A very brief history of the IRA: When the Troubles started in 1969 the IRA was a Marxist political party. The story goes that when Catholics asked the IRA for weapons to defend themselves against attacks, the IRA could only find a total of 5 revolvers. The IRA wanted to keep The Troubles a political struggle and a group wanting a military struggle split to become the Provisional IRA (the Provos). The existing IRA was referred to as the Official IRA - derogatorially called 'stickies' because sticks was all they had to defend themselves.

The Provos were less marxist and more traditional Irish nationalist than the Official IRA which remained marxist and pursued the military option. The Officials were an active force for a number of years after the split and certain areas of Belfast were Officlal controlled and other Provo controlled. After the early-70s the Officials faded from view as the Provos became the predominant force.

In summary the Provos were less marxist and more nationalist than the IRAs previous incarnation. I do not consider the Provos marxist.

Posted by phil_b 2005-02-04 5:21:55 PM|| 2005-02-04 5:21:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 That should have read - the Official IRA which remained marxist and mostly non-militarized while the Provos pursued the military option

Posted by phil_b 2005-02-04 5:25:19 PM|| 2005-02-04 5:25:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Perception is often more important than reality. If the powers that be think the IRA is behind the stunt, the IRA's denial is of limited value. The denial may be true; the denial may be legitimate -- who knows. What does matter, is that the bank robbery put everyone on edge and re-stirred a rather unhappy pot.

Posted by Kalchas 2005-02-04 5:38:40 PM|| 2005-02-04 5:38:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 TW - of course, that is reasonable. I see no need for grenades, C-4, mines, shoulder fired missiles of any sort - which is why I mentioned firearms and not explosives, missiles, or indirect fire weapons (i.e. mortars). I beleive every law abiding citizen should have the right *to own or not own* a firearm based on their own individual beliefs, not because the govt told them to. I think catholics in Ireland, Jewish settlers, protestants, & law abiding paleos deserve that right. Prolly the reason some Iraqis who voted yesterday were able to fight thugs who wanted to teach them a lesson today.

Kalchas - your point is well taken.

Posted by Jarhead 2005-02-04 6:20:53 PM|| 2005-02-04 6:20:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Thanks, Jarhead. I value your opinion -- your experience and outlook are so very different than mine. I'll do my bit keeping the home fires burning, while you make the bad guys sorry, ok? And I do appreciate the occasional invective, too -- absolutely revelatory to one whose life is as sheltered as mine!

Posted by trailing wife 2005-02-04 11:44:50 PM|| 2005-02-04 11:44:50 PM|| Front Page Top

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