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2007-03-19 Home Front: Politix

Straight-talking McCain vows to fix world's view of the 'ugly American'

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Posted by Dave D. 2007-03-19 06:31|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The RINO version of Ted Kennedy.

Posted by Icerigger 2007-03-19 07:06|| 2007-03-19 07:06|| Front Page Top

#2 First wrong assumption: that the last five years is the primary reason that our rep is "sullied".

Second wrong assumption: that there is anything that anyone from any party can do, short of selling out our nation, to make the Euros "like" us.

To hell with the Europeans. They'll either be a depopulated cipher in 75 years, or a Muslim caliphate. Why would any sane person care what-these soon-to-be-extinct countries think of us?

There are any of a dozen or so well written articles by both Europeans AND Americans on the fact that while the Europeans at all levels oppose the battle in Iraq, their anti-Americanism is a far deeper, far older, and far more institutionally ingrained thing than the MSM and their anointed RINO McCain would have us believe.

With rare exception, western Europeans (especially the power and cultural elite but even to some extent the average person) have come to really hate Americans and America over the past fifty years. Their ersatz sympathy for 9/11 is the best example I can think of, when despite the expressions of sorrow by the leaders of various countries polling data two weeks after the bombing showed that more than half of the population of many countries in Europe were either glad of the bombing or indifferent.

Thanks for your bravery and service in Vietnam, Senator. But there isn't thing one you or anyone else can do to make the Euros our friends. They aren't, and they won't be, unless every firearm is confiscated, capitalism is banned or regulated into something unrecognizable, medicine is socialized, unemployment lasts for four years, retirement is at 55, authentic Christianity and Judaism are denigrated or destroyed, and our birth rates go below replacement. Their goal is to make the true thread of Western civilization go away, to be replaced with their own cancerous version.

The only Americans who are "ugly" are those members of the cultural elite who have bought into cultural Marxism, multiculturalism, and evangelical secularism.

And those politicians who pander to them.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 07:40|| 2007-03-19 07:40|| Front Page Top

#3 I'm always amazed at how our politicians fixate on this non issue. I really don't care what any frenchman or migrant dweller of the sandy wastes thinks of me. Just. Don't. Care.

Posted by M. Murcek">M. Murcek 2007-03-19 07:43|| 2007-03-19 07:43|| Front Page Top

#4 How can you fix jealousy?

Posted by Bright Pebbles in Blairistan 2007-03-19 07:45|| 2007-03-19 07:45|| Front Page Top

#5 He just lost any chance for my vote. There's nothing I hate more than sucking up to EUroweenies.

Posted by Spot">Spot 2007-03-19 07:49|| 2007-03-19 07:49|| Front Page Top

#6 We saved Europe's Ass Twice, WW1-WW2, Ungrateful Bastards, To HELL with them.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2007-03-19 07:54|| 2007-03-19 07:54|| Front Page Top

#7 What no mo uro said. Every word.

If McCain's the Republican nominee, I doubt I'll even bother to vote. "Revived Straight Talk Express", my aching ass...

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-03-19 07:58|| 2007-03-19 07:58|| Front Page Top

#8 One of the best books on anti-Americanism that I've come across is Anti-Americanism by the French journalist-philosopher Jean-Francois Revel. He makes the point that the prejudice and some of memes that pollute European thinking date back to the earliest exploration of the Americas, before the colonization of North America was even begun. *shrug* We can't fix this for them; like any addict they must fix this four century old addiction for themselves.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-03-19 07:58|| 2007-03-19 07:58|| Front Page Top

#9 Barf.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2007-03-19 08:22|| 2007-03-19 08:22|| Front Page Top

#10 McCain is butt ugly, so how does he...

Posted by Captain America 2007-03-19 08:45|| 2007-03-19 08:45|| Front Page Top

#11 How nice. I don't suppose this was a joint announcement with Javier Solana to fix the world's view of "the condescending European," or with King Abdallah to fix the world's view of "the explosive Muslim"?

Posted by exJAG 2007-03-19 09:09|| 2007-03-19 09:09|| Front Page Top

#12 The leftist Europhiles cannot get over their love of their rather idealized view of Europe and Europeans.

People such as Alec Baldwin and John Kerry want to get money from the US, but they love the elitism and "snoot" of European elitists over the dreary depression of American elitists.

Were they to live there any great length of time, they would develop disdain for the Europeans, too, and start to fantasize about somewhere else.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-03-19 09:24|| 2007-03-19 09:24|| Front Page Top

#13 European governments will hate us forever because we built the strongest, richest and most moral country ever with what they felt was their human refuse.

It really is that simple.

Posted by GORT 2007-03-19 09:46|| 2007-03-19 09:46|| Front Page Top

#14 Well, the "We dont need no stinking allies" crowd is out in force. Except we do, whether its putting pressure on Iran, or Zimbabwe, or fighting in Afghanistan, or boycotting Hamas.

McCain knows it. So does the Bush admin, post-Rummy.

Note, from WaPo, McCain continues to talk about the Iraq war and the necessity of winning to every audience. Rudy and Romney dont.

I guess if you're not as convinced of the importance of victory, youre not as convinced of the need for allies. Makes sense.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 09:48|| 2007-03-19 09:48|| Front Page Top

#15 You want the "allies" that undermine your efforts, stab you in the back and basically use your country as a political whipping boy or as a political scape-goat? You can have them, liberal-boy.

I'll stick with Eastern Europe, Denmark, Oz and some other fine countries. The rest can go to hell.
(which they are going too, BTW, with the muzzie influx)

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-03-19 09:58|| 2007-03-19 09:58|| Front Page Top

#16 Barf++. As an American, I'm rather proud to be hated by certain parties.

Posted by SteveS 2007-03-19 10:07|| 2007-03-19 10:07|| Front Page Top

#17 Most of the comments on this thread are SPOT ON. Euro hatred of America is ingrained. Hell, it's a part of their DNA. Trying to understand it and changing our foreign policy to suck up to them will only result in the loss of what little remains of our self respect.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2007-03-19 10:19|| 2007-03-19 10:19|| Front Page Top

#18 Yasss... Americans need to become ever so much more sophisticated, nuanced, and with that certain sense of ironic jadedness...

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2007-03-19 10:37|| 2007-03-19 10:37|| Front Page Top

#19 Liberalhawk, I have no doubt that you are well intentioned, but you are dwelling in an alternate reality.

Allies would certainly be useful in any struggle, but the Europeans are NEVER going to be well disposed towards us even if they were to become temporarily allied for some cause.

And the chances of this are small anyways, because much like the Democrats here, so great is the hatred for true strain (ie., American) Western thought that they would rather allow harm to come to the West than do anything that might enhance the chances of conservatism (such as support a victory against radical Islam) at the ballot box.

Not to mention the fact that losing to the Islamicists assuages the needs of their elite's ingrained masochistic multi-culti impulses.

You need to open your mind to the fact that for the most part the bulk of Europe has considered us an enemy for decades. We have done precisely the things they have not, and espoused precisely the philosophies they have reviled, and we have succeeded while they are pointed downward to what is, in all likelihood, oblivion. This galls them to their very core, the fact that they thought they were the true and functional thread of Western civilization and instead are a cancerous tumor on said civilization, and this gall gives them a rage and bitterness with no cure. Short of death, nothing strikes fear into the heart of a leftist than the possibility of admitting error.

I'll repeat it: nothing we can do, short of giving up capitalism, our guns, and our culture, publicly reviling authentic Christianity and Judaism, and shouting from the rooftops that America and the American way was always evil and wrong, will get the Europeans to "like" us.

And even that might not.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 10:54|| 2007-03-19 10:54|| Front Page Top

#20 LH,

You may not think much of Rummy, but no truer words were ever spoken when he announced that - this time around - the mission would define the coalition not the coalition defining the mission.

McCain is trying to curry favor with the MSM by sucking up to the Euro weenies. McCain looked at his poll numbers and felt his campaign needed a little boost from the NYT, WaPo, LAT, and the Sunday morning talk shows (except Fox) etc...

Europe is doing all it can to assist Iran to go nuclear. Watch it happen.

Posted by Mark Z">Mark Z 2007-03-19 10:58|| 2007-03-19 10:58|| Front Page Top

#21 Most of the comments of this thread are idiotic.

1) America needs allies and still more needs some countries not actively helping the bad guys: think in confronting China against confronting China equipped with French planes.

2) America is now considered the big bad guy in world. You have managed to lose the PR war gainst the Soviet Union and you are losing it against Jihadis and two bit Latin Amaerican dictators

3) Some of this bad PR is due to your sins but 90% is due to America not paying attention to efforts at diabolizing it. KGB managed through an Indian newspaper to spread that AIDS was a military viris developped by the AZmerican armed forces. Where was teh refutation? NOWHERE (BTW, AIDS is useless as a military virus). When Al Quaida bombed the mebassies whare was the PR campaign mentionning Al Quida's racaism who for the sake of killing 12 Americans had killed over 200 Negros, and wounded over two thousand (many of them crippled for life and probably now dead of starvation)? NOWHERE. Instead America promoised to compensate the victims (Hint: I wouild have told them to complain to the Saudi embassy and offered them judicial help) and when the compensations didn't materialize the victims began blaming America insterad of Al Quiada. BRIGHT!!!!

Today the UE is trying to play the role of a counterweight to the USA and to begin with spreading hate of America between its populations. Do you try to contain UE expansion in East Europe? Nooooo, you encoyrage it. Do you have Radio Free Europe broadcast into France? Of course no.

All what you do is complain about not being loved while, like cows looking the train pass, you do nothing as children in France are being told that D-DAY was just for increasing the sales of Coca-Cola and Gillette.

PS: Forcing an airplane to take a longer route because there is country she can't overfly means being able to carry less bombs, to make less sorties per day and, in case it is damaged, it can lead to the loss of the aircraft. That is why even Ivory Coast can be valaable ally if there are bad guys in teh general area.

PS2: Ma Cain means that America must becaome dovish, I mean she must care about those who posinon the minds of tehir contries against her.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-03-19 11:04|| 2007-03-19 11:04|| Front Page Top

#22 Via Bros. Judd:

The man seems to be doing everything he possibly can to alienate the conservative base. One of the favorite phrases over at RedState is "I'll open a vein before I'll vote for McCain." How he expects to get the nomination is a mystery.

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-03-19 11:08|| 2007-03-19 11:08|| Front Page Top

#23 OK, JFM, since I'm such an idiot, perhaps you can explain how the U.S. can wage a successful information campaign to get the bulk of Europeans to agree that free market capitalism is better than welfare state capitalism or socialism, that the Jews and Israel are friends of the West, that authentic forms of Christianity are good for the West, that private ownership of firearms is the last, best guarantee of a free society, that societies must be crafted to encourage women to procreate instead of (or at least as well as) simply having a career, and that the family is a more important institution than government, without basically every country in Europe howling in protest and jamming our signals.

Please be precise as to the mechanism.

Oh, and about the Soviet Union winning the propaganda war - how is the Soviet Union these days?

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 11:14|| 2007-03-19 11:14|| Front Page Top

#24 Beginning, JFM?

I think not.

Cold War is over, just going back to the way it was, now w/24/7 access.

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-03-19 11:20|| 2007-03-19 11:20|| Front Page Top

#25 We need allies. But true allies have shared vision and beliefs. Such as the growth of governments that support individual rights and freedom.

For the most part, this is not the case with Europe any more. They favor control and stability, collectivism over individualism.

So there is only the shrinking ground of a common enemy that hold us together - and they do not even recognize it nor the seriousness of the threat of Islamofascism.

That is why this sort of "ass kissing" tour that McCain proposes is simply wrong, and will ultimately be ineffective. Until we have chained ourselves to their collectivist policies and their desire for a "One WOrld" led by them, especially prevalent in western europe, Europe and its collectivists will never be happy nor comfortable with the US.

McCains effort is wasted - and shows the vapidity of his vanity.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-03-19 11:29|| 2007-03-19 11:29|| Front Page Top

#26
OK, JFM, since I'm such an idiot, perhaps you can explain how the U.S. can wage a successful information campaign

I can't tell you how to win but I can tell you how lose. Continue like now doing no effort to counter negative spin by Al Jazeera, Chavez or the corrupt european leaders who dream of ruling the world once they have managed to create conditions for America's downfall.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-03-19 11:38|| 2007-03-19 11:38|| Front Page Top

#27 "I can't tell you how to win but I can tell you how lose. Continue like now doing no effort to counter negative spin by Al Jazeera, Chavez or the corrupt european leaders who dream of ruling the world once they have managed to create conditions for America's downfall."

Lose? Like against the Soviet Union? If we "lose" that badly against the Islamicists and Euroelite, I'll take it.

Also, whence cometh this "no effort" charge? Our leaders have categorically denounced these villains at every turn. Admittedly our academics and entertainers have not, but such is the price of a free society. I suspect the CIA is not exactly idle in this area , either.

You're going to have to do better than "you're not doing anything" , and come up with a specific action plan, before you can start calling me or anyone else an idiot, sir.

I would also add that we are doing what is probably the best ad campaign of all, every minute of every day, and that is leading by example. You don't need to proseltyze to do that.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 11:49|| 2007-03-19 11:49|| Front Page Top

#28 I have minimal problem with McCain spouting platitudes about allies, even those who are not sincerely US allies anymore.

He is fundamentally more of a Hawk than Bush is. If doing things like executing Jihadis at Ft. Leavenworth while closing Gitmo helps us, so be it. There is room to work here after a necessarily polarizing Bush administration. For instance, the French supposedly supported Israel going into Damascus last summer. McCain might have gotten that to happen.

My biggest problem with what he says is that we need to go along with European demands on Kyoto (or it's successor) as that issue is important to the Euros. In this regard, he's just being a Dhimmi to their neo-pagan eco beliefs. That's a bridge too far for me.

I'm all for reducing pollution. However, defining CO2, which we exhale and volcanoes belch, as a pollutant is insane. The science has not proven the magnitude of mankind's role in the recent warming trend, whether it can be reversed by human action, whether this is desireable (vs. a generally warmer planet where we can grow crops in new places -- like we could during the medieval'warming period') and, if so, whether cutting carbon emmissions is the best way to do it (vs. increasing atmospheric particulates, carbon sinks, Iranian nuclear winter, etc.). Yet, the Europeans, who abandoned faith in the Christian God after a century of slaughter, now demand that the US (which is already pretty efficient in terms of carbon emmissions per unit GDP and net carbon emmissions) make a ritual sacrifice to their Marxist project to appease the weather gods while they achieve their Kyoto targets simply by shrinking the population (OK, I give the French credit for using nuclear power though I guess that means they are no better pagans than they are catholics).

I am an Arizona Republican and planned to support McCain out of general loyalty. However, if he adopts Al Gore's apocalyptic worldview I'll have to look elsewhere for straight talk.

Posted by JAB 2007-03-19 11:52|| 2007-03-19 11:52|| Front Page Top

#29 Liberalhawk: of course we need allies. I'm just not convinced that we have any in western Europe other than Blair and the Danes.

I'd like to have western Europe as our allies, but I won't compromise our basic principles to gain their friendship. Sadly, as others here have commented, European anger at/with us goes back decades and is based precisely on differences in our and their basic principles.

We can cooperate with them on certain matters: we do today in the quiet war on terrorism. We'll have reasonable trade rules, cultural exchanges and tourism.

But we're destined not to be close friends -- we haven't been before and we won't be tomorrow.

Too bad, but we must not compromise.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-03-19 11:57|| 2007-03-19 11:57|| Front Page Top

#30 #21. JFM people believe that they wish to believe. IMO, it's easier to convert Paleos to peaceful coexistence with Israel than to convert EUros into US allies.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-03-19 12:05|| 2007-03-19 12:05|| Front Page Top

#31
I'd like to have western Europe as our allies, but I won't compromise our basic principles to gain their friendship.

Right on! And you will not get Europe as allies by compromising principles you will get just the temporary, very temporary alliance of European elites. Go over their heads and reach to the people.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-03-19 12:36|| 2007-03-19 12:36|| Front Page Top

#32 Oh, and about the Soviet Union winning the propaganda war - how is the Soviet Union these days?

The West Lost The War: Vladimir Bukovsky

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-03-19 12:38|| 2007-03-19 12:38|| Front Page Top

#33 IMO, it's easier to convert Paleos to peaceful coexistence with Israel than to convert EUros into US allies.

Euros don't exist. The new european man doesn't exist, it's a contructivist dream, like the new soviet man. There only are europeans, they're flesh and blood people, just like you, yes, even you, Gromgoru. And, like it or not, the USA and Israel are european counties; that's what the "West" is about, white european civilization, period (with "Europe" not being "EU", again).

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-03-19 12:42|| 2007-03-19 12:42|| Front Page Top

#34 Gromgoru said:

JFM people believe that they wish to believe. IMO, it's easier to convert Paleos to peaceful coexistence with Israel than to convert EUros into US allies.

You are right, except that I will change this to: it's easier to convert Paleos to peaceful coexistence with Israel than to convert Enarques into US allies (Enarques are the French high ranking public employees whose recruitment and carreer is prone to make them feel as lords of the universe. Most of our politicians are Enarques. Chirac, Jospin (former prime minister), Villepin, Roral (Socialist candidate) are Enarques. Sarkozyt is not one of the rare French politicians who are not Enarques. Those friendly French you find outside Paris are not Enarque (obvious) but aren't poisoned directly or through Parisian chic MSM by the Enarque spirit.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-03-19 12:45|| 2007-03-19 12:45|| Front Page Top

#35 A5089 - I remember reading that article when it first came out six or seven years ago.

I take your point, but remember that the Sovs were primarily about economic Marxism and used cultural Marxism as a tool, whereas today's left is the opposite.

I don't deny the existence and dangers of cultural Marxism, but I do think it's inaccurate to equate it with the Soviet Union. If you wish to say that's a distinction without a difference, feel free, but I disagree.

Your second post, however is MUCH better.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 12:51|| 2007-03-19 12:51|| Front Page Top

#36 "Liberalhawk: of course we need allies. I'm just not convinced that we have any in western Europe other than Blair and the Danes.

I'd like to have western Europe as our allies, but I won't compromise our basic principles to gain their friendship. Sadly, as others here have commented, European anger at/with us goes back decades and is based precisely on differences in our and their basic principles.

We can cooperate with them on certain matters: we do today in the quiet war on terrorism. We'll have reasonable trade rules, cultural exchanges and tourism.

But we're destined not to be close friends -- we haven't been before and we won't be tomorrow.

Too bad, but we must not compromise."

First of all Im not sure what basic principles McCain has suggested compromising on. We may not agree here on Global Warming, but I dont see how McCains position violates basic principles. Or how closing Gitmo would violate basic principles.

I DO NOT think the euros require US to adopt their positions on social welfare - nor do I think we need to require them to adopt OURS. Somehow when the USSR threatened the west, socialists who like big welfare states managed to get on just fine with free marketers who didnt.

Ditto, I dont think euro or US needs to tell each other what to believe about God. Thats really neither here nor there about international realpolitics. Note, neither wingnut anxiety about Euro atheism, or Guardian fears about fundies are realpolitik.

We have far more friends than Blair and the Danes. Right now there are Dutch and Canadian troops fighting hard in Afghanistan. France will be voting for sanctions on Iran this week (and thats with Chirac still in charge - IF Sarko wins, we should see a firmer France)

Its true France wants to strengthen its own power, and doesnt love us. Mature alliances can handle that. We need to work together wherever we can to the extent we can. Thats what international politics is about, not love and gratitude. And not whether we admire each others internal political choices. McCain, AFAICT, wants to take steps that will improve practical cooperation.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 12:55|| 2007-03-19 12:55|| Front Page Top

#37 "You may not think much of Rummy, but no truer words were ever spoken when he announced that - this time around - the mission would define the coalition not the coalition defining the mission."

And McCain accepted the mission, with the coalition that we had.

What he wants us to do is things, in line with our values, that can also make it easier for us to get coalitions in the future. and again, I dont think thats far different from what Rice, Gates,et al, are already doing.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 12:58|| 2007-03-19 12:58|| Front Page Top

#38 "I'll repeat it: nothing we can do, short of giving up capitalism, our guns, and our culture, publicly reviling authentic Christianity and Judaism, and shouting from the rooftops that America and the American way was always evil and wrong, will get the Europeans to "like" us."

Could you please let me know which is authentic Judaism, as I fear I may be going to the wrong shul. ;)

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 13:00|| 2007-03-19 13:00|| Front Page Top

#39 JFM, I don't subscribe to doctrine that People are inherently good, but can be led astray by bad rulers. Me, I go with Ecclesiastes: "Man's nature is evil from his youth." or Begon, Harper, and Townsend: "an organism is not adapted to its environment---it's adapted to the environment of its ancestors" (i.e., humans simply not adapted for any level of social organization superseding a hunter-gather band).

Posted by gromgoru 2007-03-19 13:07|| 2007-03-19 13:07|| Front Page Top

#40 McCain is a self-agrandizing idiot that is best ignored. His belief that he can "repair" something that was never there in the first place just shows how really out of touch he is. The common man anywhere in Europe considers himself "superior" to Americans, for a host of reasons. The truth is, all the best from those countries left for America during the last 250 years, and currently make up the majority of the "Americans" the modern "Europeans" despise. The majority of politicians in Europe are still elitist, royalist wannabees that feel they have a "right" to lead the rest of the world, and hate the US for "usurping their rightful position".

We need allies to help fight this war, but they must be WILLING allies that recognize a common goal. Once this war is won, whether we remain allies depends upon the wants and needs of the various nations and their people. Europe is reverting to the form it held before World War II (actually what it held during the latter half of the 19th Century, or as close as it can get), while the United States continues to move forward. Trying to please European pseudo-monarchies is a waste of time and energy. We are not the ones that need to change, and McCain is an idiot for not recognizing it. I don't give a tinker's da$$ if "Europe", "Africa", "Asia", or the Martians like us. I do care if they are actively trying to undermine our government, our institutions, and our way of life, and will raise holy he$$ with them over that. Both the governments of France and Saudi Arabia have proven time and again they are working against us, and need to be considered the enemies they are. Sorry, JFM, but THAT'S straight talk, not the crap John McCain is spewing.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-03-19 13:53|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-03-19 13:53|| Front Page Top

#41 "Could you please let me know which is authentic"

Simple, the churches/synagogues which don't subscribe to "liberation theology" or any other form of cultural Marxism pretending to be spirituality. Those that do know who they are and don't need me to delineate them, either way.

As far as the Euros requiring that we tow their line on things economic and social, I would refer you to the following: Kyoto, GMO foods, rules about what constitutes "organic" foods, attempts to ban firearms in the U.S. through the mechanism of the U.N., etc., none of which are even remotely countered by anything the U.S. does.

BTW, I didn't see anyone here saying that they want to force Europe to become theist again, unhelpful ant anti-intellectual ad hominem offensive attacks on alleged "wingnuts" notwithstanding. I would never want to force anyone anywhere to do so. And nobody on this forum has done so. (Projection on your part, perhaps?) However, there is a large and growing body of evidence that America's spiritual life is a major bone of contention for the Euro elite, and that they would do whatever they could to get rid of it. Certainly their ideological brethren in our education and entertainment industries seem to be hell bent on it.

Socialist big-government types have always been cozy with free-marketers? Examples, please? If anything, socialist welfare statists played communists against free marketers for their own gain.

Practical cooperation may be a good thing incertain instances, but that isn't what McCain is talking about. He's talking about going hat in hand to people who will continue to hate (and thwart) us NO MATTER WHAT WE DO and expecting them to love us. This is folly.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 14:03|| 2007-03-19 14:03|| Front Page Top

#42 1. However, there is a large and growing body of evidence that America's spiritual life is a major bone of contention for the Euro elite

Lots of atheist euros dont like the religiosity of many Americans. And that applies to some Euros who aint elites - plenty of folk anticlericalism in europe. BUT AFAICT thats not driving US-Euro relations, not among most ordinary folks, and not among foreign policy makers.

"and that they would do whatever they could to get rid of it."

No, I dont see that. I dont see them doing ANYTHING to get rid of it, just sneering about it.

"Certainly their ideological brethren in our education and entertainment industries seem to be hell bent on it."

Well seeing as atheists in America LIVE in America, you could see why that would be an issue to them, and not to Europeans. Kinda the way say, French unemployment benefits are a big issue to French corporations, but not real important to us.

"Socialist big-government types have always been cozy with free-marketers? Examples, please? If anything, socialist welfare statists played communists against free marketers for their own gain."

The entire history of anti-communist Social democrats during, and even before, the cold war.

"Practical cooperation may be a good thing incertain instances, but that isn't what McCain is talking about. He's talking about going hat in hand"

How so? What is he suggesting that he doesnt already believe in anyway?

"to people who will continue to hate"

Again, I dont think most Euros do.

"and thwart)"

They will thwart us on occasion, as we will thwart them on occasion.

"us NO MATTER WHAT WE DO and expecting them to love us. This is folly. "

Expecting other countries to love us is certainly folly. International politics is based on interests, not love. What we need to do is make sufficient changes so they will not feel threatened by us, and they will see our power as more in their interests than they currently do.

If youre looking for love, well govts, foreign or domestic, are "all the wrong places"

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 14:13|| 2007-03-19 14:13|| Front Page Top

#43 "What we need to do is make sufficient changes so they will not feel threatened by us"

Aha! We finally get to it.

We are "threatening" and all of the responsibility for changing is up to US!

What should we do, then? Convert to socialized medicine, guaranteeing that our capitalism will die as surely as theirs has? Give up our guns so that we seem less like scary cowboys? Give up some free market power and entrepreneurial freedom so that their failing business model looks a little better? Stomp on and mock our devoutly spiritual so that we seem more secular and sophisticated? Sign on to the terrible confluence of gaia-worship, luddism, and Marxism known as anthropogenic global warming?

Which goat do we kill to make our Euro overlords happy?

Tell everyone, Liberalhawk, what things specifically do YOU personally think we should change or give up that would induce the Euros to love us enough- pardon, "see our power as in their interests" enough - to be our allies in the WoT?

More importantly, what things about our social, economic, and political landscape are too important, in your opinion, to be compromised in this attempt?

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 14:30|| 2007-03-19 14:30|| Front Page Top

#44 "What we need to do is make sufficient changes so they will not feel threatened by us, and they will see our power as more in their interests than they currently do."

It think it would be more appropriate for THEM to make sufficient changes so they will not feel threatened by us, and see our power as more in their interests than they currently do.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-03-19 14:56|| 2007-03-19 14:56|| Front Page Top

#45 Dave D, proving that brevity is sometimes best.

Thanks for saying it better than I did.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 14:58|| 2007-03-19 14:58|| Front Page Top

#46 LH,

Why do you (or McCain for that matter) think that changing the Guantanamo detainees into Levenworth detainees would make any difference at all?

Are you saying that the Euros are so simplistic that the geography of the prison is relevant?

Isn't there real problem that there ARE detainees at all? And, in that case, I think you found your principle.

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2007-03-19 15:01|| 2007-03-19 15:01|| Front Page Top

#47 If one lacks shared values and a shared understanding of how things are, one cannot be effective "allies". Europe will need to wake up and have a good look around before they'll ever be any use to us again.

Posted by Crusader 2007-03-19 15:02|| 2007-03-19 15:02|| Front Page Top

#48 Their NOT there above. PIMF except when you do and don't notice the boo-boo. 8^P

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2007-03-19 15:12|| 2007-03-19 15:12|| Front Page Top

#49 "Thanks for saying it better than I did."

Nah. I just provided the Executive Summary...

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-03-19 15:13|| 2007-03-19 15:13|| Front Page Top

#50 LH, I'm surprised by your statement that we need to make changes sufficient to defuse this ill-defined concept of a "sullied" image. As you sensibly say elsewhere, there will always be areas of agreement, conflict, disagreement, compromise, etc.

What I think is wrong here is that the premise that there is practical, real-world cooperation ("allies") that is missing, which could reasonably predicted to materialize if somehow the vibe about the US were different.

(anecdotal, unscientific, yet pertinent data alert) I am specifically aware of great consternation on the Euro side, specifically intel - because of the destructive leaks (SWIFT, renditions, others) that left true allies out to dry (some of these allies are the same ones whose politicians and press trash us in public, BTW). So, yes, there DOES need to be a big change here - the outrageous, criminal activity by career govt. employees in betraying ongoing intel operations in war-time needs to be shut down, punished.

I am not aware of any practical, real-world cooperation that is not occurring due to the image thinggy. Nothing.

But to dwell on McCain's specifics - that is, to barf, as Sea noted above - boy is that boy not ready for prime time (well, actually, any breathing organism is ready for the MSM's prime time these days, so long as they mouth the right nonsense). Ahemm, moving Gitmo guests stateside would run afoul of both perception and legal pitfalls - incredibly stupid idea (exJAG, please correct me here if I'm off-track).

Global warming? Please.

If McCain had the sense and the political courage (we know he's got the other kind in spades), he'd be "distancing" himself from Dubya in denouncing the failure to explain, educate, and advocate on behalf of the US position (usually, the legally and morally principled position) in recent years. THIS has been Dubya's most serious failing - because it affects his successors, not because it affects his approval ratings.

This gets us back to the so-called image problem. Exsqueeze me? The US image is "sullied" because we took out one of the most odious, dangerous, blood-soaked regimes in modern history, and are sacrificing our people to help create a stable and potentially far more democratic and prosperous country? Ditto for the Afghanistan example? Because we recognize the naked emperor in the case of the Geneva Conventions, and even while too timid to formally call everyone's bluff by convening another session to address the clear inadequacy of the current language, apply most of the POW provisions to those who are arguably among the worst war criminals seen since rules of war evolved?

LH, even accepting the odious, factually incorrect, and outrageous premise of a "sullied US image", as McCain does, is the problem. This is the "alternate reality" referred to above.

Close observation of McCain some years back (long before his maverick status or presidential doings) convinced me the guy's not right, and I'm confident most people will have the same reaction. That's quite apart from his substantive problems - little things like not understanding and even expressing public disdain for the US Constitution.

Geez.

Posted by Verlaine 2007-03-19 15:52|| 2007-03-19 15:52|| Front Page Top

#51 What we need to do is make sufficient changes so they will not feel threatened by us"

Aha! We finally get to it.

We are "threatening" and all of the responsibility for changing is up to US!

What should we do, then? Convert to socialized medicine, guaranteeing that our capitalism will die as surely as theirs has? Give up our guns so that we seem less like scary cowboys? Give up some free market power and entrepreneurial freedom so that their failing business model looks a little better? Stomp on and mock our devoutly spiritual so that we seem more secular and sophisticated?

None of the above, as those are all domestic matters, of no international importance.

"Sign on to the terrible confluence of gaia-worship, luddism, and Marxism known as anthropogenic global warming?"

Its widely held science, acknowledged by the Bush admin. We should cooperate in getting a new treaty that balances our interests with theirs, yes.

"Tell everyone, Liberalhawk, what things specifically do YOU personally think we should change or give up that would induce the Euros to love us enough- pardon, "see our power as in their interests" enough - to be our allies in the WoT?"

I think McCain is on the right track.

"More importantly, what things about our social, economic, and political landscape are too important, in your opinion, to be compromised in this attempt?"

None, as I dont think this about domestic politics.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 16:00|| 2007-03-19 16:00|| Front Page Top

#52 "LH,

Why do you (or McCain for that matter) think that changing the Guantanamo detainees into Levenworth detainees would make any difference at all?

Are you saying that the Euros are so simplistic that the geography of the prison is relevant?

Isn't there real problem that there ARE detainees at all? And, in that case, I think you found your principle."

1. We have already changed our treatment of detainees, in particular as regards the legal standards for holding them. However Gitmo has become an image problem. Yes, many Euros ARE hung up on the name of the place now. Its become a code word. I presume McCain wants to clear that. And yes, that holding them in CONUS would make clear that we are not trying to go through subterfuge to keep the courts from having authority over them. Whatever limits we ARE going to place on the courts, we will do so by statute.

Certainly in prior wars we held EPWs in CONUS. IIUC the prior examples of illegal combatants that the admin has cited were held in CONUS as well.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 16:04|| 2007-03-19 16:04|| Front Page Top

#53 LH says "None, as I dont think this about domestic politics."

Sorry I think you are way wide of the mark here.
This "image" thing is very much about domestic politics at least as it involves trade and economics generally. One of the major hairs across EU ass is that we out perform them in spades. Kyoto has NOTHING to do with environment and everything to do with economics.

The problem is that the US saw through the illusion and realized that the whole treaty was a way to stomp on American economic might.

They have the same problem with Holywood and American culture in general. They can't compete so they loathe us and try and come up with ways to thwart us.

GM crops, same thing. Most all foreign policy from time immemorial has been about trade as have most wars in one way or another. The Euros can no longer compete on the playing field of global commerce so they look for other ways to drag us down to their level.

That is the elites and anyone that they can brainwash.

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2007-03-19 16:13|| 2007-03-19 16:13|| Front Page Top

#54 "The US image is "sullied" because we took out one of the most odious, dangerous, blood-soaked regimes in modern history, and are sacrificing our people to help create a stable and potentially far more democratic and prosperous country? Ditto for the Afghanistan example? Because we recognize the naked emperor in the case of the Geneva Conventions, and even while too timid to formally call everyone's bluff by convening another session to address the clear inadequacy of the current language, apply most of the POW provisions to those who are arguably among the worst war criminals seen since rules of war evolved?"

See thats the thing. We DONT call another conference, we just decide to change the thing on our say so.

Look, I supported overthrowing Saddam, despite the lack of UNSC support. So did McCain BTW. Now if we had done Iraq, but taken a more conciliatory stand on Geneva that would be one thing. Or Iraq and Geneva, but been more conciliatory on Kyoto. Its the combination of things, that makes folks wonder if we dont just think of ourselves as too strong to need to listen to anyone else on anything, even as we use our strength to pressure others.

And the practical losses include everything from difficulties getting them to cooperate on isolating Hamas, to getting them to lean more our way on missile defense in eastern europe, to more flexible uses of force in Afghanistan.

Now I realize you can say that even if we did all we could REASONALY do it wouldnt matter on any of those. If you beleive that, that their decisions are NEVER impacted by the things we have done (thus far), well than from you POV your position makes sense. I dont think theres anything I could post that could prove you wrong - even examples of cooperation during previous admins wouldnt be proof, as each international situation is unique.

I guess Im not saying one cant disagree with McCain (and myself) on this. Its just that I dont think you can PROVE McCain wrong either, and much of the reaction I saw upthread is NOT based on a rational assertion that marginal changes in US policy wont lead to significant changes in Euro behavior, but were more gut Euro hatred ("theyre socialist atheists who want to pry my gun from my cold dead hands" sort of thing)

Id call it Euro Derangement Syndrome, or McCain Derangement Syndrome. Its the flip of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Where someone on the left cant simply say that Bush is wrong on a particular issues, but that hes crazy, or a moron, or a fascist. Similarly many on the right cant simply say someone they disagree with, like McCain, is wrong, but that hes a traitor, or crazy.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 16:16|| 2007-03-19 16:16|| Front Page Top

#55 "Kyoto has NOTHING to do with environment "

I respectfully disagree.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-03-19 16:16|| 2007-03-19 16:16|| Front Page Top

#56
If one lacks shared values and a shared understanding of how things are, one cannot be effective "allies". Europe will need to wake up and have a good look around before they'll ever be any use to us again.

Are you helping in any way? And I say it not for Eurpean's good but for your own good.

Let's have an example: a few weeks ago there was a roundtable about "Americ's society" in Paris. There was selection of politicians and experts and a number of people, not fomaing-at-the-mouth leftits but people genuinely interested assisted and... got the customary BS about how evil was America, how you had theree homeless per square mter and how yopu could get no medical treatment unlless you were as rich as Bill Gates.

If your whiole State Department were not a bunch of losers you would have had someone of your emabsssy assisting incognito to the meeting and at one point would have raised and told "Excuse me but why is you haven't a single American in your panel? Did you fear contradiction?" And then proceeded to thrash the show.

You are losing the battle for public oppinion because you don't fight

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-03-19 16:30|| 2007-03-19 16:30|| Front Page Top

#57 Go over their heads and reach to the people.

What JFM said.

Posted by Shipman">Shipman 2007-03-19 16:30|| 2007-03-19 16:30|| Front Page Top

#58 LH, points taken on EDS, and perhaps MDS (though both are actually based on real problems, not imagined ones). But I don't think there's any "there, there" on the specifics in question. That is, I don't think it would have been either (1) substantively defensible (2) diplomatically productive to have been more conciliatory on Gitmo or anything else - and while of course I can't prove/disprove hypotheticals in this or any other case, I find it unserious to assert that Euro positions (and here we're lumping together a considerable variety of things, I admit) on missile defense, Hamas, or esp. involvement in Afghanistan would have been any different.

I think each of those specific areas you mention has their own sad history of Euro mistakes, dysfunction, craven irresponsibility, or simply disability.

In short, we need not and should not be conciliatory when we're correct, and the matter is vital. On other things, sure toss 'em a bone if it can be shown to be currency for their domestc political and will actually allow them to do something we like. I just don't think you've found any such examples, and I haven't noticed any myself.

Finally, as for EDS and MDS, the outrage is quite reasonable. Triangulating when the US is involved (unavoidably, and honorably) in a fight for the security of the wider western world, against the most ruthless and odious characters in recent history - sorry, that's simply outrageous. Paying gigantic ransoms in Iraq that are without any doubt channeled into killing and maiming our soldiers is beyond outrageous - and it's not just the Germans who are guilty on this score.

I'm quite willing to accept the most irresponsible Euro players (France, Germany, Belgium, perhaps Spain) back into the fold, if they start supporting international law, civilized values, and sensible strategy. Until then, their image is terribly sullied for me.

Not an iota of derangement here - robot-like, cold-blooded calculation and knowledge of how the world actually works, followed by great anger and resentment at the craven, irresponsible, arrogant, and dangerous behavior of countries and should and often do know better.

Rhetorical question: How the hell did the US, of all countries, get the "arrogant" tag, when the Euros and others are behaving as they do?

Posted by Verlaine 2007-03-19 16:39|| 2007-03-19 16:39|| Front Page Top

#59 JFM, what you said. As I myself, said in a post above. The most serious (not to mention mysterious) failure of this administration is their near-silence in the face of the ocean of lies, disinformation, and distortion that washes over the world on a daily basis (and that's just in the "free western press" - I'm not even considering the propaganda organs in many parts of the world).

Sadly, I have direct and extensive experience in the heart of this issue. It's just as bad as it seems from the outside.

Posted by Verlaine 2007-03-19 16:42|| 2007-03-19 16:42|| Front Page Top

#60 '"Tell everyone, Liberalhawk, what things specifically do YOU personally think we should change or give up that would induce the Euros to love us enough- pardon, "see our power as in their interests" enough - to be our allies in the WoT?"

I think McCain is on the right track.

"More importantly, what things about our social, economic, and political landscape are too important, in your opinion, to be compromised in this attempt?"

None, as I dont think this about domestic politics.'

What incredibly weak, sneaky, dishonest attempts at an answer.

Responses like these are those of a dissembling lawyer or politician who fears what his debate opponent would do to him should the real truth about his opinion be known to all.

Do you not know the meaning of the word "specific"?

You have not answered my questions sufficiently. Tell me which EXACT policy changes you would have us make that would induce the Euros to "share our interests". Not generalities, not "let's elect McCain", not "let's sit and chat", actual differences in existing policies.

I'm guessing that all of them require that conservatives must sacrifice issues about which they care, and all will either affect issues you and you ilk on the left care about not at all or will actually advance them.

What things must change, then, specifically?

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 16:44|| 2007-03-19 16:44|| Front Page Top

#61 Red meat for the thought monster.
Enjoy

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-03-19 17:03|| 2007-03-19 17:03|| Front Page Top

#62 "The most serious (not to mention mysterious) failure of this administration is their near-silence in the face of the ocean of lies, disinformation, and distortion that washes over the world on a daily basis"

Very well put. Instead of the great communicator, we have a Mumbler in Cheif. No fault of his own, he is inarticulate except in brief moments. But he should have at least had someone effective regularly banging the drum to counter the propaganda.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-03-19 17:03|| 2007-03-19 17:03|| Front Page Top

#63 "The most serious (not to mention mysterious) failure of this administration is their near-silence in the face of the ocean of lies, disinformation, and distortion that washes over the world on a daily basis"

Very well put. Instead of the great communicator, we have a Mumbler in Cheif.

America's cmmunication problems began weeeeelll before Bush. I mentionned the embassy fiasco. That was under Clinton.

Reagan could have been a great communicator in the home front but he was complete failure on the foreign front: it was under his administration that you had massive pacifist demonstrations who nearly put West Germany in the neutral side. It was under his administration that the UE adopted an explicit anti-american agenda. Before taht you had that failure called Jimmy Carter. A burning memory: Khmer Rouge handing leaflets in a university, had they been Americans they would have been lynched.

Still farther, in France the Communist Party telling that Americans had spread Black Plague in Korea.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-03-19 17:25|| 2007-03-19 17:25|| Front Page Top

#64 "The problem is that the US saw through the illusion and realized that the whole treaty was a way to stomp on American economic might."

Truer words were never spoken, AlanC.

The following statements are the truth, ugly as it may be, about GW:

1. Kyoto was never about concern for the environment. Ever. It was a way for Europe to increase overhead for U.S. business so that their own failed business/society model might compete against them more favorably.

2. If anthropogenic GW were some day to be proven true, and the solution were more capitalism and less regulation, the bulk of the people who advocate it now would drop it like a hot potato.

3. Many of the same people who revile large "C" Creationists (rightly so, IMO) are engaged in an essentially identical pursuit of a theory (GW) which is equally not proven by facts. Sorry, science correctly done is not done by consensus.

4. Almost without exception the scientists who favor GW are either people not in the meteorological field/have no training there, people who are meteorologists getting funded to study GW (usually by public sector monies), or people whose desired end point for society is the highly regulatory socialist one that the GW advocates want, anyways.

5. There are THOUSANDS of competent ,credible scientists worldwide who are NOT oil company employees and are NOT funded by the energy industry who have debunked GW or are at least skeptical of anthropogenic causes.

6. To one extent or another, GW is just another attempt to rescue socialism. It is the natural result of the left's attempts since the 1960's to change the ethical standard from "wealth is good" to "wealth is bad" and from "equality of opportunity" to "equality of outcome", coupled with resurgent paganism.

As I said above, anthropogenic GW is the intersection where the subsets of luddism, Marxism, and gaia-worship meet.

Posted by no mo uro 2007-03-19 17:27|| 2007-03-19 17:27|| Front Page Top

#65 "See thats the thing. We DONT call another conference, we just decide to change the thing on our say so."

That is not just a lie, it's a STUPID lie. Not that I'd ever accuse you of being deliberately deceptive; God knows you've all the guile of a week-old puppy. But it's a lie nonetheless, in that it's the sort of childish, self-deceptive hogwash you liberals tell yourselves to justify your damnfool opinions.

The reality is that we spent well over a year in intense consultations with nations all over the globe, trying to build support for removing Saddam's regime. Month after grueling month, we did backflips and handstands before every power in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas, attempting to win their support.

But the official Party Line among you liberals is that this grinding, glacial, yearlong process amounted to a "rush to war", and here we see that echoed in your witless pronouncement that "we just decide to change the thing on our say so."

You fool. You poor, well-meaning fool.

"...and much of the reaction I saw upthread is NOT based on a rational assertion that marginal changes in US policy wont lead to significant changes in Euro behavior..."

That is PRECISELY what those objections are based on, and they derive from years of bitter experience dealing with recalcitrant "allies."

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2007-03-19 17:35|| 2007-03-19 17:35|| Front Page Top

#66 Thanks for saying it better than I did.

Bah! You're batting 1,000, no mo uro. Exactly how are we supposed to pander to the suicidal Europeans? By slashing our own wrists in empathy? If these antiquated morons cannot cease their endless triangulating against America, what incentive is there to cozy up to them? These greedy bastids are enabling Iran's nuclear aspirations and are champing at the bit to sell communist China all the most advanced military hardware that money can buy. Some allies!

Send over a flotilla of new "Liberty Ships" to fetch the Brits and Danes, then let the rest of Europe sink into its own meticulously excavated socialist morass.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-03-19 17:57|| 2007-03-19 17:57|| Front Page Top

#67 McCain = Ted Kennedy in a skirt.

Posted by RD 2007-03-19 18:14|| 2007-03-19 18:14|| Front Page Top

#68 I'm iffy on the Brits ------

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-03-19 19:04|| 2007-03-19 19:04|| Front Page Top

#69 Not to worry. The Brits are iffy on you.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-03-19 19:13|| 2007-03-19 19:13|| Front Page Top

#70 --None of the above, as those are all domestic matters, of no international importance.--

Horsehockey, of course they are.

Go on their forums, they bring it up we're dying in the streets, no health care, yada, yada, yada.

What they want if for us to be like them so we can admit our grand experiment was wrong and they were right all along.

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-03-19 19:17|| 2007-03-19 19:17|| Front Page Top

#71 It's like the Euroweenies are playing on a giant chess board and we are the opponent. Unfortunately, their own people are the pawns and wheeling and dealing with muslims, red Chinese, Martians, or Vegetarians are moves to advance their pathetic empires toward an imagined utopia. Since they fall back with alarming regularity, the evil opponent is to blame. After all, they have tried everything, socialism, secularism, marxism, common markets, one currency, one language, open borders, subsidized manufacturing, central government, social medicine, extra vacation, shorter work weeks, early retirement, and still they slide downward, ever downward.
De Nile may be a river in Africa, but Europe is an island awash in denial. When they are finally ready to change, we will know by changes to their work ethics, not their political excuses.
Senator McCain, it's not about us, you idiot.

Posted by wxjames 2007-03-19 19:22|| 2007-03-19 19:22|| Front Page Top

#72 LH and others,

I've been off line for a few hours. I'll just point to JFM & Verlaine and "What they said".

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2007-03-19 20:37|| 2007-03-19 20:37|| Front Page Top

#73 "You are losing the battle for public opinion because you don't fight."

So it's our fault again, is it? Sounds like typical guilt-inducing pop psychology to me. This whole argument is an exercise in "black is really white". Iraq has been a torturous, drawn out war because much of Europe NEVER DID join the fight and made a public spectacle of their opposition to America throughout the war. Had Europe from the beginning done the right thing-stuck with an ally to take out an obvious tyrant-the outcome might have been much different. Very little consideration is given to the possibility that a Europe united behind the US's deposal of Saddam might have provided just the kind of international "credibility" that South American and Asian "allies" might have respected. Persuasion might have even grown to portions of the Arab world itself, with such numbers. All things connect.

You say it is our fault for not countering every attack. A thousand gnats can sting a giant who is able to swat only 50. My question for you, ally, is why were European allies not loyal friends who would stand up for a friend who has sacrificed much for them? I have never believed this notion that it is primarily the elites that have the anti-American views. I lived there and saw plenty of it from the regular folk. They themselves are carrying that anti-American banner, with huge numbers, proudly and savagely. The coliseum is alive and well in 21st century Europe.

Posted by Jules 2007-03-19 22:14|| 2007-03-19 22:14|| Front Page Top

#74 Grampa was an Admiral in the Navy. Daddy was an Admiral in the Navy. That history alone, would suggest that John McCain has, probably unwittingly, developed an unbelievably exagerated sense of entitlement. After all, there's pure, rarified air at the +07 level for alcon (especially at USN).

He's a maverick (not the missile) because it's impossible for him to be anything else. Even if he might have been cut a little slack as a POW, which is doubtful, McCain has trouble bonding. I think he's confused, but doesn't realize it. Still (IMHO), McCain could handle the job. (at)

Posted by Asymmetrical T 2007-03-19 22:22|| 2007-03-19 22:22|| Front Page Top

21:08 GramBorder
23:51 Barbara Skolaut
23:47 gromgoru
23:33 gromgoru
23:29 Zenster
23:25 Barbara Skolaut
23:24 Zenster
23:20 Zenster
23:17 ryuge
23:15 Zenster
22:59 Zenster
22:53 USN, ret.
22:53 djohn66
22:24 Barbara Skolaut
22:22 Asymmetrical T
22:21 Zenster
22:16 Barbara Skolaut
22:14 Jules
22:09 Barbara Skolaut
22:08 Chuck Simmins
22:08 Zenster
22:04 Zenster
21:58 Sneaze
21:56 Jackal