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2005-07-12 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by Bobby 2005-07-12 07:58|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Maybe, just maybe, there's hope. One problems is that Islam isn't like the Roman Catholic church, so there is no leadership that can order others to follow suit.

Posted by Jackal">Jackal 2005-07-12 08:31|| home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]">[home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2005-07-12 08:31|| Front Page Top

#2 Maybe, just maybe, there's hope. One problems is that Islam isn't like the Roman Catholic church, so there is no leadership that can order others to follow suit.

Well the Pope can issue an edict or what ever but that does not mean any one is going to pay attention either

Posted by Cheaderhead 2005-07-12 08:39|| 2005-07-12 08:39|| Front Page Top

#3 Money graf:

And in the broader Islamic world, where the terrorist bombings like the one in Madrid are rejected, there is still a high degree of support for the political causes that allegedly motivate such attacks. This takes the edge off any specific condemnations of bin Laden.

I question the idea that the Madrid bombings were "rejected" in the wider Islamic world, but have no doubt that the goals of al'Qaeda are widely supported.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-12 09:05|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-12 09:05|| Front Page Top

#4 You think the average muslim guy wants a single kalifate from Morocco to Indonesia?

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 09:54|| 2005-07-12 09:54|| Front Page Top

#5 I think they'd accept, if not actively campaign, for it. Allan wants it

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-07-12 09:58|| 2005-07-12 09:58|| Front Page Top

#6 Well theyre fatalists. Theyll accept a lot of things. Mubarak is in charge? Inshallah. Sadat is in charge? inshallah. Sadat is dead? inshallah. The brits are in charge. Inshallah.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 10:02|| 2005-07-12 10:02|| Front Page Top

#7 Well theyre fatalists. Theyll accept a lot of things. Mubarak is in charge? Inshallah. Sadat is in charge? inshallah. Sadat is dead? inshallah. The brits are in charge. Inshallah.

Israel exists... inshallah? No... don't hear that one.

Saddam's deposed... inshallah? No... don't hear that one.

The Taliban's deposed... inshallah? No... not that one, either.

Some Korans were handled by kaffirs... inshallah? Nope...

There's a play about a suicide bomber that shows her as an average teen... inshallah? Nope. Didn't happen.

Oh, and there are quite a few Muslims living in Great Britain who really aren't that keen on the British being in charge there. You might have heard about the act of fatalism they performed on the subways and busses of London last week.

I really wonder if you'd be as tolerant of Christians supporting -- even by silent assent -- fascism as you are of Muslims who do it. I doubt it -- I think you'd hold them to a higher standard.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-12 10:22|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-12 10:22|| Front Page Top

#8 "Israel exists... inshallah? No... don't hear that one."

The opposition to Israel was led for 30 years by secularist arabs, military types. The others really werent that worked up. Working them up took decades of official and unofficial propaganda, a virtually unanimous call from EVERY mosque, every newspaper, and from secular pols and radicals, including christians.

"Saddam's deposed... inshallah? No... don't hear that one."

Actually i think you DO get some of that. The general reports of numbness when the US troops came in. Its taken all the effort of Ayatollah Sistani to get people out of fatalist mode and voting. Or are you talking about the insurgents? 20,000 guys, maybe 200,000 hard core supporters, in sunni arab population of about 5 million. Yup, mostly its inshallah.

"The Taliban's deposed... inshallah? No... not that one, either."

For most Afghans, I suspect it is. Again, as with Iraq, are you referring to people who cheered the fall, or to those fighting to bring them back?

"Some Korans were handled by kaffirs... inshallah? Nope..."

In most of the muslim world, its been met with a yawn, I think. A couple of big demos in Afghanistan, engineered, Id say.

"There's a play about a suicide bomber that shows her as an average teen... inshallah? Nope. Didn't happen."

Huh?

"Oh, and there are quite a few Muslims living in Great Britain who really aren't that keen on the British being in charge there. You might have heard about the act of fatalism they performed on the subways and busses of London last week."

Oh, well, theyre living in the modern West, and may have lost some of their fatalism. I would hardly call any muslim living in the West average. Whether its the ones trying to westernize, or the ones planting bombs.

I really wonder if you'd be as tolerant of Christians supporting -- even by silent assent -- fascism as you are of Muslims who do it. I doubt it -- I think you'd hold them to a higher standard.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 10:36|| 2005-07-12 10:36|| Front Page Top

#9 "I really wonder if you'd be as tolerant of Christians supporting -- even by silent assent -- fascism as you are of Muslims who do it. I doubt it -- I think you'd hold them to a higher standard."

silence implies consent. So if you live in a country like say, Egypt, where the govt asserts its national independence, flies a flag, plays an anthem, and the 'official' preachers defend the notion of the independent state, and a few underground preachers call for a califa, does that imply assent to the independent state, or to the Kalifa?

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 10:40|| 2005-07-12 10:40|| Front Page Top

#10 In grad school I had a Chinese-Malaysian classmate who told me that in WWII his relatives were happy about the Japanese invasion. All these Europeans had been tromping over the place for centuries, throwing their weight around, and now it was time for Asians to kick a little ass.

I trust this was their attitude before their women were hauled off to the brothels, and their children used for bayonet practice, but you never know.

I suspect similar thinking animates those Muslims who aren't exactly signing up for their Semtex, but nevertheless hand out the candy when someone else does. They see it as a blow against the colonial oppressors (though I believe the reports of the colonial oppression of the ME have been greatly exaggerated), and don't think of other consequences. They don't believe that the noble jihadis would commence oppressing other Muslims as soon as the last Westerner is blown up. And if they do, well, inshallah.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2005-07-12 10:42|| http://darkblogules.blogspot.com ]">[http://darkblogules.blogspot.com ] 2005-07-12 10:42|| Front Page Top

#11 The opposition to Israel was led for 30 years by secularist arabs, military types. The others really werent that worked up. Working them up took decades of official and unofficial propaganda, a virtually unanimous call from EVERY mosque, every newspaper, and from secular pols and radicals, including christians.

The attacks on Israel started from day one of its existence. It didn't take 30 years to declare a jihad against Israel; Azzam Pasha did that the next day.

On most of the other points, it IS the westernized population that is expressing the loudest anger. Your reaction:

Oh, well, theyre living in the modern West, and may have lost some of their fatalism. I would hardly call any muslim living in the West average. Whether its the ones trying to westernize, or the ones planting bombs.

No True Scotsmen, eh?

"There's a play about a suicide bomber that shows her as an average teen... inshallah? Nope. Didn't happen."

Huh?

Cincinnati's Playhouse in the Park was going to put on a play by a local playwriter that "dealt" with the lives of two teens in the Middle East. One, a suicide bomber, the other a victim of a suicide bomber. Well, naturally, the nutjob with the bomb got the better treatment, but that wasn't enough for the local (and not so local) Islamist community. You see, in his attempt to make the splodeydope more approachable for a western audience, the playwright had her listening to music and worrying about clothes, boys, etc. That got a bunch of beards in knots.

At first the playwright offered to work with them to make it more "acceptable", but eventually the playhouse dropped the whole project. Hard to understand why, what with all the love and tolerance they were getting from the religion of peace.

I'm not surprised you're not aware of this case. As it's not too flattering to the Muslim community, it didn't get much coverage.

silence implies consent. So if you live in a country like say, Egypt, where the govt asserts its national independence, flies a flag, plays an anthem, and the 'official' preachers defend the notion of the independent state, and a few underground preachers call for a califa, does that imply assent to the independent state, or to the Kalifa?

To quote Amir Taheri:

Go to any mosque in the West (let alone in the Islamic countries) on any Friday and you are sure to hear a litany of woes about how the "cross-worshippers" have allied themselves with the "plotting Jews" in order to destroy Islam, which, as God's final message, is the only true faith....

The London attack was not the work only of the few individuals who carried it out. It was the bitter fruit of a faith that has been hijacked by a minority of extremists while the majority of its adepts watch with a mixture of awe and ill-concealed pride.

Silence in the face of this is the problem.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-12 11:05|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-12 11:05|| Front Page Top

#12 ...Quibbles 'n Bits...

And then the freakishly tall, fabulously wealthy, deranged and devoted Caliphatist stood up and proclaimed the Jihad. Didn't really matter much where, or when, or upon whom - as long as it served The Dominion Dream. Serendipity Struck: a failing Soviet Union with an inept broken military combined with the sickest, twisted, cretins ever produced by the ISI in concert with Wahhabi Islam. Shit Happened! It was a come as you are party - a freakshow which Captured a Flag. Ahmed Afghani's Excellent Adventure. Soon, freaks from all over the Bottom of the Barrel jumped at the chance for ghoulish glory and pious power in Little Mo's Derring-Do Brigades: stoning, whipping, soccer shootouts - a Grand time was has by ~~All~~ The Chosen Few. Burqas Bloomed! Buddhas Boomed! The imams picked up the call and swallowed the zakat gratefully, rolling in piety. The message spread: power and influence and status are yours! Boffo sales among the Dregs of Demographic Disasters! Royals Rejoiced! Dictators Drooled! PakiWakis Proliferated! Khans and Kimmies Krowed! Mullahs Maddened! Ghouls Gladdened! Then Bush Bashed and Cultures Clashed and Moonbats Gnashed and Talibanis Crashed! Saddam Fooled and Drooled! Bush wasn't Buying and soon Saddam was Crying while the Ex-Allies sat on their Hands. The Ba'athists and The Freaks and The imams and the Royals and The Dictators and The Mad Mullahs, each for difference reasons, knew a Good Thing when they had one going... They cried in secret unison, "The Great Game must Go On!" So Jackoff Jihadi, The Saw, and The Freaks played on, supported by The Enablers.

And the Moderate Muzzies said, insh'allah, paid their zakat to the jihadi imam, made their donations to the jihadi charities, kept their freaking mouths shut tight, and awaited the call to open their doors to The Lions and donate their children to the freaks.

Spelling error: fatalities, not fatalists.

Insh'allah ~~suckers~~ ~~infidels~~, well, you know who we mean, now don't you?. Lol.

Posted by .com 2005-07-12 11:08|| 2005-07-12 11:08|| Front Page Top

#13 "I would hardly call any muslim living in the West average."

good catch. Obviously muslims living in the west are average WESTERN muslims.

Let me rephrase. I would hardly call any muslim living in the west representative of the average of all muslims living around the globe, those living in dar al Islam being much more numerous than those living in the West, and being much more fatalistic.

Is that clear now? You said in number 3, that the goals of aq qaeeda were widely supported, after mentioning the wider Islamic world.

To me the wider islamic world means every muslim from Morocco to Indonesia. almost 2 billion people.

Now some folks on NPR and elsewhere think that the goals of Al Qaeeda are Israeli withdrawl from the West Bank, and US withdrawl from Iraq. But you and I are not so naive. Which is why i asked about the Khalifa. AFAICT no more than a tiny proportion of the 2 billion muslims wake up every day wishing for the revival of the Khalifa, mourning the events of 1924, etc. (note that when youre dealing with a population of 2 billion, a tiny proportion can still be alot) You said, well, theyd accept it. I presume this to mean that in the unlikely eventuality that AQ DID establish a Khalifate from Morocco to Indonesia, they wouldnt go out protesting. The mass of fatalist peasants would look up, go 'inshallah' and return to their herds, their rice paddies, their market stalls. Which I cannot disagree with. But would assert that they would do so with respect to most anything. Do you really think that the folks who gave the israelis the most trouble over the years were beduin herdsmen, or egyptian fellahin, or even West bank farmers? No, AFAICT at every turn it was "intellectuals" whether western trained or imams of some kind. NOt the mass of fatalists.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 11:58|| 2005-07-12 11:58|| Front Page Top

#14 Well, I am delighted three-month old news brought forth such a response!

Dot Com - did you just make that up today? Can I copy it and frame it? Have you thought about writing Dr. Suess books? I mean, like Dr. Seuss, but not dead. Very clever.

Time will tell, but one percent of two billion is ... lemme see ... 20 million! A small percentage, but a huge number!

It's too bad we can't get "mythical moderate muslim" to offer his/her thoughts here. Surely, they would be tolerated, if one exists?

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-12 12:22|| 2005-07-12 12:22|| Front Page Top

#15 Is that clear now? You said in number 3, that the goals of aq qaeeda were widely supported, after mentioning the wider Islamic world.

To me the wider islamic world means every muslim from Morocco to Indonesia. almost 2 billion people.

I stand by that. If there were no such support, if there were in fact opposition, al'Qaeda wouldn't be able to move money and people around so easily. They wouldn't be able to send out recruiters without those recruiters being exposed. Their "intellectuals" wouldn't be able to preach hate without being exposed.

One of the lists of stopped terrorist attacks I saw had dozens of Moroccans on it. Bali, of course, was the act of Indonesians. In Thailand the muslims are chopping the heads off of Buddhist teachers. In the Phillipines you have MILF, which in their case are NOT operating pornographic websites. In Iran you have, well, the Iranian government. In Saudi Arabia we have "moderates" who say "well, I hate the Christians and Jews, but I wouldn't personally kill one". In the west we have coddled immigrants who think to repay our tolerance by blowing themselves up in buses and planes, or native converts who think going to war against their homeland or shooting a few random pedestrians is a religious duty.

The beasts of Beslan slaughtered children while chanting "Allahu Akbar". The Nord Ost murderers proclaimed their desire for an independent Chechnia -- so long as it's ruled by sharia, of course.

If the mass of the Muslim world opposed this, it would stop. To abuse one of Mao's analogies, the so-called moderates provide the sea in which the terrorist fish swim. If they opposed the jihadis, that sea would dry up, and the exposed terrorists would die away.

I have some hope for Iraq -- some of the people there seem intent on opposing it. If Iraq works, it's the best hope of seeing a Muslim population against terrorism. If Iran ever throws out the Mullahs, there's another chance. Afghanistan, unfortunately, is a slim chance just because of its proximity to the "land of the pure".

Beyond those three, though. I have no doubt the Muslim world supports the goals of al'Qaeda.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-12 13:02|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-12 13:02|| Front Page Top

#16 Save some for me PeeDee!

Posted by Shipman 2005-07-12 14:11|| 2005-07-12 14:11|| Front Page Top

#17 Well the Pope can issue an edict or what ever but that does not mean any one is going to pay attention either

Depends on whether it's ex cathedra or not.

Posted by Pappy 2005-07-12 14:13|| 2005-07-12 14:13|| Front Page Top

#18 "...the Summit - attended by world leaders including UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, Afghan President Hamid Karzai, and former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright"

WTF?!?!? Albright a world leader 3 months ago? And what is that multicultural multibitch doing representing the USA? That's like CAIR representing Israel against UN resolutions.

Posted by Hyper">Hyper 2005-07-12 14:17|| 2005-07-12 14:17|| Front Page Top

#19 "If there were no such support, if there were in fact opposition, "

Why? There are 2 billion muslims, thats thousands and thousands of villages and urban neighborhoods. AQ doesnt run its finances, or do its recruiting in all of them. They recruit on the Pashtun side of Afghanistan, not the Tajik side. The Sunni triangle in Iraq, not the Shiite or Kurdish areas. In southwest Saudi, not in secularist North Teheran. I presume they know more or less EXACTLY where there prime recruiting and support grounds are, down to specific mosques - which mosques will generate recruits, which will not but will look away, and which will turn them in.

I would also suggest that there are people who do oppose them, but stay silent out of fear. Folks who are willing to kill at the drop of a hat have a real advantage over folks who want to be left alone to live their lives (and once again, not being willing to be a hero to stop AQ is not the same as being an accomplice)

also, to the extent that folks DO pick up whats going on in Mosques, and DO report them, would the details be public? I presume the databases that are used to determine persons of interest, that the UK security are using in their investigation this week, is in part a result of muslim informants in mosques and elsewhere. Im glad though that these sources and methods are being kept secret.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 15:05|| 2005-07-12 15:05|| Front Page Top

#20 "If there were no such support, if there were in fact opposition, "

Why? There are 2 billion muslims, thats thousands and thousands of villages and urban neighborhoods. AQ doesnt run its finances, or do its recruiting in all of them. They recruit on the Pashtun side of Afghanistan, not the Tajik side. The Sunni triangle in Iraq, not the Shiite or Kurdish areas. In southwest Saudi, not in secularist North Teheran. I presume they know more or less EXACTLY where there prime recruiting and support grounds are, down to specific mosques - which mosques will generate recruits, which will not but will look away, and which will turn them in.

I would also suggest that there are people who do oppose them, but stay silent out of fear. Folks who are willing to kill at the drop of a hat have a real advantage over folks who want to be left alone to live their lives (and once again, not being willing to be a hero to stop AQ is not the same as being an accomplice)

also, to the extent that folks DO pick up whats going on in Mosques, and DO report them, would the details be public? I presume the databases that are used to determine persons of interest, that the UK security are using in their investigation this week, is in part a result of muslim informants in mosques and elsewhere. Im glad though that these sources and methods are being kept secret.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 15:05|| 2005-07-12 15:05|| Front Page Top

#21 "To abuse one of Mao's analogies, the so-called moderates provide the sea in which the terrorist fish swim. If they opposed the jihadis, that sea would dry up, and the exposed terrorists would die away."

Mao was speaking of guerilla warfare, and even there its quite possible for a guerilla force to coerce cooperation. Terrorists have a smaller footprint than guerillas, and hardly need the magnitude of support.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-12 15:07|| 2005-07-12 15:07|| Front Page Top

#22 Ah, Lib hawkster is over here carrying water for the Religion of Pieces again...whatta surprise.

"To abuse one of Mao's analogies, the so-called moderates provide the sea in which the terrorist fish swim. If they opposed the jihadis, that sea would dry up, and the exposed terrorists would die away."
This is correct and should be noised abroad in both the UK and the rest of Europe as well as the U.S. ASAP.
Time has not been on our side since 9/11.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-12 19:06|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-12 19:06|| Front Page Top

#23 Why? There are 2 billion muslims, thats thousands and thousands of villages and urban neighborhoods. AQ doesnt run its finances, or do its recruiting in all of them.

Yet it exists. It must exist somewhere. Why aren't the moderates in those places blowing the whistle?

I would also suggest that there are people who do oppose them, but stay silent out of fear.

Inexcusable.

People opposed the Klan, and some paid for their opposition with their lives.

People opposed the Nazis, and some paid for their opposition with their lives.

In what way is it acceptable to not oppose the jihadis, simply out of fear for your life? Particularly if, as we're constantly told, the jihadi/Islamist ethos is antithetical to Islam -- in that case, opposing it becomes a religious duty.

No, I don't expect everyone to do something. But I'd expect more than the, oh, 50 that showed up at the Free Muslims Against Terror March.

also, to the extent that folks DO pick up whats going on in Mosques, and DO report them, would the details be public? I presume the databases that are used to determine persons of interest, that the UK security are using in their investigation this week, is in part a result of muslim informants in mosques and elsewhere. Im glad though that these sources and methods are being kept secret.

Yeah, because secrets are better than public attention!

Christ, LH, are you even paying attention to what you're writing?

If a big Christian church -- one of the so-called "mega churches", let's say -- started playing host to Christian identity theology, would it be better for the police to secretly get a tip, or for that fact to be splashed across the front page of the local paper? Which do you think would put an end to it quicker?

What makes Muslims different?

(And we KNOW this crap is being pushed in mosques in the US.)

Mao was speaking of guerilla warfare, and even there its quite possible for a guerilla force to coerce cooperation. Terrorists have a smaller footprint than guerillas, and hardly need the magnitude of support.

I disagree. The need for a base for training, the need for support, the need for communications (not just information, but cash and supplies), all point to a larger organization than just a few lone nuts.

Keep in mind that we're not talking about a few lone nut jobs like the Unabomber. Literally dozens have been arrested for the support they gave the 9/11 hijackers -- who supported those dozens? Did none of them talk to any of their co-religionists?

What about the Lodi case? One of the "agitators" in that case started travelling around the US in 1988, speaking at mosques and raising money for his father's madrassah. He was in "high demand" at mosques around the US, and apparently raked in money for the madrassah.

That madrassah was one of the ones that fed into the Taliban and the Kashmir terrorism.

Do you believe everyone who listened to his talks were unaware of what he was supporting? Do you believe everyone who donated to support that madrassah was unaware of what it was teaching?

Where was the outrage? Why was this fellow welcomed into a mosques all over the US?

Be honest, LH, and admit that we're not even seeing some of the basic moves we'd expect. Go read David Frum's Diary for today. There's a list from Frum himself of what we should expect from Muslims in the west, and a summary of an article from Mansoor Ijaz on the same subject.

None of those steps -- even ones as basic as open accounting and a pledge to ban "preaching of hate" in mosques -- have been done. It's been four years since 9/11, and we're still waiting on basic steps.

I find that unacceptable.

I can't understand why you don't.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-12 19:22|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-12 19:22|| Front Page Top

#24 Permission to copy and put to a severe back-beat, ala AC-DC, .com? I was wrapping all the way through, should make an impression on a few English speaking jihadis in Leeds on a Friday night, when played in Arabic at lunch-time. They would not believe it, but I do.

Any translators out there??

Posted by rhodesiafever 2005-07-12 19:28|| 2005-07-12 19:28|| Front Page Top

#25

Well theyre fatalists. Theyll accept a lot of things. Mubarak is in charge? Inshallah. Sadat is in charge? inshallah. Sadat is dead? inshallah. The brits are in charge. Inshallah.

"Sadat is dead?" Inshallah?"
The will of Allan? I think not, particularly since it was the Muslim
Brotherhood (or was it Islamic Jihad?) who murdered him for signing Camp David.
"The brits are in charge? Inshallah?"
Again, they most certainly do NOT accept it as God's will or we wouldn't have the phenomenon of the 7/7 bombings, their first step on the road to the violent overthrow of the British government and to the establishment of the Dar al Islam on the emerald isle.
I hate to say it (not really! LOL) but you are either the biggest idiot, Lib hawkster, or you're actually a Muslim yourself.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-12 19:35|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-12 19:35|| Front Page Top

#26 That should read: Any translators out there (with access to backward graphics.. and spell-checks written by the true kaffirs....). I am thinking of taking written arabic, but cannot trust my teacher, what shall I do, all that western influence, I must go boom myself.

Apologise for being blunt, but.....

Posted by rhodesiafever 2005-07-12 19:39|| 2005-07-12 19:39|| Front Page Top

#27 ....I have been here before.

Posted by rhodesiafever 2005-07-12 19:40|| 2005-07-12 19:40|| Front Page Top

#28 "None of those steps -- even ones as basic as open accounting and a pledge to ban 'preaching of hate' in mosques -- have been done. It's been four years since 9/11, and we're still waiting on basic steps."

I'd say even that assessment is overly charitable. I gave up waiting for even the most rudimentary indications of "moderation" from American Muslims a long time ago, once CAIR started churning out its Jesse-Jackson-style bogus victimhood crap.

"Moderate Muslims" are as moderate Muslims do-- and they haven't done squat.

Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-12 19:41|| 2005-07-12 19:41|| Front Page Top

#29 From one Jennifer to another, Jennie, please stop. We all know Liberalhawk is as Jewish as I, and just because you don't like him doesn't excuse such insults. Liberalhawk is trying to argue reasonably, with references upon request. You don't like what he has to say, so once again you lash out. I haven't noticed you treat anyone else here this way, and it isn't necessary, because you really can argue effectively when you want to. Please?

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-12 20:51|| 2005-07-12 20:51|| Front Page Top

#30 Take it from me---the Rantburg Resident Imam---that fatwas are a dime a dozen, and nobody pays any attention to them any more. **sigh** Looking for a fatwa that promotes your cause is like shopping for a jury to rule in your favor.

Posted by Al-Aska Paul">Al-Aska Paul 2005-07-12 21:22|| 2005-07-12 21:22|| Front Page Top

#31 Um, I'm not sure where the Jewish issue came in unless I missed it on another thread---but that was pretty snarky and personal. I've found it best to be tolerant and accepting of the particularly sentimental foibles of liberals travelling with us---which is probably how I've come to be marrying one in September. :)

But to the topic at hand, I tend to agree with AP.
It's going to take much more than this. It's a nice gesture, but it's more a gesture toward the West, than toward Islam. These whacked-out, weirdly oriented Muslims that likely have the occasional drink in the local pub and don't cover themselves properly aren't going to make much of an impression on the traditional Islam that caused the bombings in the first place.

What it might take, if anything, to change the course of mainstream Islam is anybody's guess. Bahaullah didn't take. Either not enough of a sacrifice, or too much of a perversion of Islamic belief.

Islam needs a Valentine Smith---enough of a sympathetic figure to draw attention, and enough of a sacrifice to equal Ali. And even then it might only make a schism, not a sea change.

Posted by Asedwich">Asedwich 2005-07-12 21:43|| 2005-07-12 21:43|| Front Page Top

#32 trailing wife, I respect and like you alot, but not even for your sake and the sake of RB comity could I let such inanities stand.
To "accurately" parrot Muslims as saying that these events, most of which were terrorist murder perpetrated by Islamist jihadis, as "the will of God/Inshallah" is beyond the Pale. (at least my Pale.)

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-12 21:57|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-12 21:57|| Front Page Top

#33 Bobby - Of course and thx, heh.

rhodesiafever - Sure, lol. Edit as desired.

RC - Beautiful work. :-)

Posted by .com 2005-07-12 22:17|| 2005-07-12 22:17|| Front Page Top

#34 RC - Beautiful work. :-)

Thanks. Really -- the whole time I felt like I was banging my head against a wall. I still feel that way, but at least now I know somebody thought it was worth it.

*sigh*

I have a feeling we'll be having this same discussion again in six months, after another attack carried out by another group that somehow managed to hide in the middle of all those moderates.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-12 22:25|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-12 22:25|| Front Page Top

#35 fer love of...
On closer reading, this bitch session seems to rest on a semantic point.

Hypothetically speaking, OK? There's a "work accident" in Gaza, and an orphanage is blown up. I come on here and postin context:
"A dozen babies were killed, Inshallah."

Is it respectful of the dead?
No.

Does it mean I rejoice to see babies die?
No.

Does it mean I'm an Islamist, and am poking a stick at other commentors?
No.

IS IT an irreverent slap at the mores of Islamic predestination?
YES!

IS IT a mockery of much that seems to be wrong with Islamist morals?
Yes! By Jove, I think I hear a buzzer!

Posted by Asedwich">Asedwich 2005-07-12 22:28|| 2005-07-12 22:28|| Front Page Top

#36 Rhodesiafever, are there any Yemenite Jews in your current part of the world (I know that most went to Israel "on the wings of eagles", ie El Al, but surely some emigrated afterward). Some of the older Iraqi Jewish emigres should be able to speak/read/write Arabic as well -- assuming you can find one. I understand there are communities in Montreal, Canada and I knew some growing up in Buffalo, NY.

Asedwich: Heinlein? ;-) And Jennie's post #25 on this thread. Oh, and heartiest congratulations. Your breakfast conversations, and evening makings-up, should keep you from being bored for at least the first three decades, as I well know. It isn't only on religion that Mr. Wife and I differ! ;-D Fortunately, we do agree on the most important stuff.

Jennie, I don't object to disagreements (or I should have spontaneously combusted decades ago!), but calling Libhawk a Muslim did nothing to advance your argument in that post, which I thought quite good until that last sentence closed it down as far as I was concerned.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-12 22:29|| 2005-07-12 22:29|| Front Page Top

#37 This isn't about semantics, assuming I get what you said, Asedwich.

It's about personally cherished liberal philosophy getting smack in the way of the facts.

I consider those who willfully argue trash in order to preserve and promote their precious personal world view as dangerous - especially if they happen to be loquacious and articulate. We need a BS Meter to keep track of the logical fallacies employed. Example of such mock serious crap:

Who weeps for the strawmen?

:-)

Posted by .com 2005-07-12 22:46|| 2005-07-12 22:46|| Front Page Top

#38 RC, it was beautiful work! Thanks--it was worth all that effort!

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-12 22:46|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-12 22:46|| Front Page Top

#39 Well said, dotcom, as usual! {{{}}}

tw (fellow Jen), I know LH is supposed to be Jewish. So he keeps telling us, but he argues so plaintively for and has been such a longtime apologist for the Islamist murderers beyond the point of even "liberal" seemliness and even throughout the horrors of the (last) Intifada, that I can only conclude that he might be Muslim himself.
If he's not, he's the most self-hating Jew I've seen in a while besides Barbra Streisand.
We have only the word of an anonymous pseudonym as to his (her?) real religious affiliation.
Beware of the wolf wearing sheep's clothing.
He/she questioned my bona fides the other day, well that door swings both ways.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-12 22:58|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-12 22:58|| Front Page Top

#40 You may take it from me, Jennie, that he is indeed Jewish. It's a subject I've studied more than a bit, and he is one of the few people I've met (please excuse my pride here) who know more than I do. His knowledge of Israel's internal politics and the many flavours of Socialism also track with what I know (remembering that my father was of the founding generation of Israel), and again go beyond. The things you two disagree upon... that's between the two of you. But you are a Texas lady, and I'm sure can make your point waaaay more effectively than overt insult. (I've never dared try bandying words with a Southern lady with her dander up!) I look forward to learning the art from your future posts, or at least trying to. ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-12 23:21|| 2005-07-12 23:21|| Front Page Top

13:12 play poker
23:58 Super Hose
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23:52 Frank G
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23:41 Atomic Conspiracy
23:36 Phil Fraering
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23:32 anymouse
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23:28 anymouse
23:26 trailing wife
23:25 Old Patriot
23:24 Sock Puppet 0â Doom
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23:21 trailing wife
23:19 Mike Kozlowski
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23:00 ed
23:00 whitecollar redneck
22:59 Super Hose