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2008-08-17 Home Front: Politix
Obama: "That question is above my pay grade"
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Posted by Sherry 2008-08-17 01:33|| || Front Page|| [11133 views ]  Top

#1 Just about everything is above Obama's pay grade. Except maybe...hope and change. Or is it change and hope, I forget.
Posted by Lampedusa Glack5566 2008-08-17 03:30||   2008-08-17 03:30|| Front Page Top

#2 LG, It's Obama HOPES that the voters don't notice that his positions continually CHANGE.
Posted by GK 2008-08-17 05:48||   2008-08-17 05:48|| Front Page Top

#3 A fatuous and feckless answer. Personally I am abiguous about abortion -- it's morally wrong, but there's some knuckleheads out there who simply should not have kids; and when they do the kids suffer (uaually brutish and short lives).

But Big Zero's voting record is not ambiguous -- he's extreme: in favor of late term and partial-birth. I think this too-cute-by-half crap will catch up with him even among some of the brain-dead constituents.
Posted by regular joe 2008-08-17 07:42||   2008-08-17 07:42|| Front Page Top

#4 Obama can't go toe-to-toe with anyone marginally compentent. So, whatzee gonna do come the debates at the end of September? My advice is for him to go on a much needed vacation. McCain knows the issues because of a decades long relationship with them. And nobody can match him for handling the unscripted public event. My prediction is that the fighter pilot will keep the kid on defense all through the debates.
Posted by Richard of Oregon 2008-08-17 08:10||   2008-08-17 08:10|| Front Page Top

#5 I think these two will be neck and neck in the polls, until Obama debates or refuses to debate. If he debates, he will show just how ignorant of the issues he is and McCain will completely dominate the fight, end up getting behind Obama's six and put the proverbial sidewinder up his tailpipe.
If Obama refuses to debate, people will wonder what he is hiding and will really start to look at the past few months and decide that he just isn't ready and/or completely cowardly.
Posted by DarthVader 2008-08-17 09:08||   2008-08-17 09:08|| Front Page Top

#6 Whether you are looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective

No, sense YOU ARE PRO-CHOICE and support abortion, we are looking for YOUR PERSPECTIVE. If you have no perspective or idea, how can you have made a decision to support abortion?
Posted by Besoeker 2008-08-17 09:21||   2008-08-17 09:21|| Front Page Top

#7 Thanks Vlad, he's history.
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-08-17 09:41||   2008-08-17 09:41|| Front Page Top

#8 I would interpret Candidate Obama's response about a baby's human rights is that it's "above his pay grade" was supposed be a joking reference to God. But the sure sign that joke is unsuccessful is when it must be explained. He really has no sense of people beyond his academic circle -- his Chicago political pals are fellow academics for the most part, as far as I can tell.
Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife  2008-08-17 11:49||   2008-08-17 11:49|| Front Page Top

#9 IMIdiotO, he was just trying to be clever, thinking that this might woo some of the gun-and-Bible clingin' hicks over to his side.

He must be attempting to use John Kerry's leftover jokes, with approximately the same results. (Aren't there any funny Dems they could use as speechwriters?)
Posted by Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields 2008-08-17 12:41||   2008-08-17 12:41|| Front Page Top

#10 Somebody at McCain HQ got a clue because this man is finally beginning to sound like someone who I can vote for in good conscience. I read the liveblogging of the "debate" over at Althouse and thought McCain cleaned Obama's clock. Most of Althouse's commenters thought so too.

The best answer McCain gave was, when asked about SCOTUS nominees he WOULDN'T have selected, he immediately said "Ginsberg, Breyer, Souter, and Stevens." For that answer alone he deserves to be President of the United States, but particularly when contrasted with Obama's answer (to the same question) of Clarence Thomas.

For me, the choice is pretty stark here. It's not quite Reagan/Carter or Nixon/McGovern, but it's become far more clear than it was. McCain isn't who I would have wanted for a Republican candidate; that said, he's orders of magnitude better than Obama and I'll be voting for him in November. Heck, if he keeps saying the right things I might even send him some $!
Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-17 12:55||   2008-08-17 12:55|| Front Page Top

#11  (Aren't there any funny Dems they could use as speechwriters?)

Well, they could have gotten an actual charismatic candidate. But yet again they passed up the opportunity to nominate Kinky Friedman, and yet again they're probably going to lose as a result.
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-08-17 13:02||   2008-08-17 13:02|| Front Page Top

#12 Any question not known in advance is above Obamma's pay grade.
Posted by WolfDog 2008-08-17 13:47||   2008-08-17 13:47|| Front Page Top

#13 It amazes me the MSM contines to take a charitable approach to Obama's obviously weak performance last evening's softball debate, calling it... a difference in substance style. You can stick a fork in any additional debates of this type. Obama will run from them.
Posted by Besoeker 2008-08-17 14:21||   2008-08-17 14:21|| Front Page Top

#14 I prefer a very difficult answer not answered than blurting out a dubious answer.

In pregnancy the "human rights" of the unborn baby may conflict with the human rights of the mother.

To say that a fertilized cell has the same rights than a born human being is very questionable.
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 14:28||   2008-08-17 14:28|| Front Page Top

#15 14 I prefer a very difficult answer not answered than blurting out a dubious answer.
In pregnancy the "human rights" of the unborn baby may conflict with the human rights of the mother.

To say that a fertilized cell has the same rights than a born human being is very questionable.
Posted by: Sherese Jones6358

Well then, let us start from the delivery room. Does "life begin" when the toes come out? If not, then when? You bloody tell me! Abortion is MURDER! As far as I am aware, we are the only species in all of creation which practices it.
Posted by Besoeker 2008-08-17 14:36||   2008-08-17 14:36|| Front Page Top

#16 Would you agree to abortion if it saved the life of the mother?
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 14:45||   2008-08-17 14:45|| Front Page Top

#17 Of the millions of abortions performed in the US a relative handful are to save the mother's life; rather, it's a form of birth control. Despite my ambivalence about abortion even I know this is a canard.
Posted by regular joe 2008-08-17 15:22||   2008-08-17 15:22|| Front Page Top

#18 above your pay grade?
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 15:28||   2008-08-17 15:28|| Front Page Top

#19 Unfortunately all the reporting I've heard today focused on Obama's promise to keep Roe v. Wade in place and McCain's promise to be run a pro-life administration. No mention of Obama's waffling or evasion.
Posted by AzCat 2008-08-17 16:05||   2008-08-17 16:05|| Front Page Top

#20 It's not above my pay grade. Anyone who honestly wants to research the issue of abortion will discover a male-dominated, multi-billion dollar/year industry, making the big bucks off of women in trouble. Go to http://www.feministsforlife.com/ for some real answers, then visit http://www.hopehouseofcolorado.org/ for what can be done. Life of the mother arguments came from doctors practicing abortion on the side, in order to avoid insurance problems. Abortion is the worst form of child abuse--and people like Warren Hern (inventor of late term abortions, resides in Boulder, CO) says in journal articles that he gets a "real thrill" to feel the child struggling against him before inserting the scalpel into the skull to suck out the brain tissue, then collapsing the skull to make "delivery" easier. When the left makes enemies out of infants, the elderly, retarded, and terminally ill are next.

About Obama and McCain.

VOTE MCCAIN. Duh. (And we all know I was never his biggest fan in the past).

Obamania is really scary in the totalitarian/puppet of greater powers sort of way.


Posted by ex-lib 2008-08-17 16:13||   2008-08-17 16:13|| Front Page Top

#21 Germany and Switzerland, countries with fairly "liberal" abortion laws, have abortion quotes wayyy below countries with stricter laws, go figure.

No, abortion is not something anyone could wish for, but it's a reality and here to stay.

You can go back to pre Roe/Wade times and all you will see is more dead mothers and more dead babies.

And frankly, if you define human life (and human rights) as a fertilized cell, you are giving the easy answer and creating the bigger problem.

In that case you would even deny the "pill after" to a woman who was raped.

The perfect abortion law does not exist. But it is not the "zero abortion law".

The best law is that saves the most lives.
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 16:29||   2008-08-17 16:29|| Front Page Top

#22 Truman - The buck stops here

O'man - The buck is passed on

[Hell, maybe he needs to look under the bus]
Posted by Procopius2k 2008-08-17 16:45||   2008-08-17 16:45|| Front Page Top

#23 Even Scrappleface has to admit "Pastor Rick Warren’s Forum Unfair to Obama"
Posted by tipper 2008-08-17 16:57||   2008-08-17 16:57|| Front Page Top

#24 I didn't watch the thing but reports about the actual question asked seem to differ:

Was the question: "When does life begin?" or "when does a baby get human rights?"

And why is a single cell called a "baby". What exactly makes it one?
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 17:09||   2008-08-17 17:09|| Front Page Top

#25 I get tired of this "what if it saved the life of the mother" approach. That's probably what -- less than one percent?
Posted by Darrell 2008-08-17 17:13||   2008-08-17 17:13|| Front Page Top

#26 The real point of the question is that there is no easy answer to it. It's a matter of belief?

When exactly does human life start? When does it reach a status that must be "protected". Does this status trump the will and freedom of the mother?

We simply do not know what goes on in a fertilized cell moments after conception. We can assume it does not think or feel yet. When exactly this starts isn't easy to decide.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 17:19||   2008-08-17 17:19|| Front Page Top

#27 Darrel as soon as you say that "Abortion is Murder", even 1& matter.
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 17:20||   2008-08-17 17:20|| Front Page Top

#28 Life begins at planting.

Seeding is done with mechanical planters which cover as many as 10 to 24 rows at a time. The planter opens a small trench or furrow in each row, drops in the right amount of seed, covers them and packs the earth on top of them. The seed is planted at uniform intervals in either small clumps (“hill-dropped”) or singularly (“drilled”). Machines called cultivators are used to uproot weeds and grass, which compete with the cotton plant for soil nutrients, sunlight and water.

About two months after planting, flower buds called squares appear on the cotton plants. In another three weeks, the blossoms open. Their petals change from creamy white to yellow, then pink and finally, dark red. After three days, they wither and fall, leaving green pods which are called cotton bolls.

Inside the boll, which is shaped like a tiny football, moist fibers grow and push out from the newly formed seeds. As the boll ripens, it turns brown. The fibers continue to expand under the warm sun. Finally, they split the boll apart and the fluffy cotton bursts forth. It looks like white cotton candy.
Posted by Besoeker 2008-08-17 17:20||   2008-08-17 17:20|| Front Page Top

#29 Besoeker

I think that few people would deny that a fertilized cell or an embryo is life.

The question is, when does it become "protected human life". When does it become "murder" to abort it.

Unfortunately McCain gets away with is answer that is easy to please the Evangelicals.

Let's follow up a bit:

1) When does a baby get human rights?"
- At conception

2) So do you think that killing a fertilized cell is killing a baby with human rights and therefore murder?
- Let's assume he says yes

3) Would you then say that every woman who takes a day after pill is a murderer and should be prosecuted as a murderer?
- Oops
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 17:29||   2008-08-17 17:29|| Front Page Top

#30 "And why is a single cell called a "baby". What exactly makes it one?"
It's not a baby -- it's a living being with the complete genetic code to develop into a unique, mature being. And the being is, by genetic code, human. So it is a human being.

Human development from conception to adulthood is a continuum, so it is absurd to arbitrarily define some point in it as a line beyond which abortion is murder. Abortion is always murder.

Pro-abortion people are either ignorant or feigning ignorance of atrocity for convenience and/or conscience sake. They're not people I want to represent me.

It is not pro-life versus pro-choice -- it is pro-life versus pro-death. No amount of politics or debate or "saving the life of the mother" or wishing will make it otherwise.
Posted by Darrell 2008-08-17 17:52||   2008-08-17 17:52|| Front Page Top

#31 Welcome to a country - any country actually - where more than 10% of women are murderers... and most of its doctors as well.
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 17:57||   2008-08-17 17:57|| Front Page Top

#32 It's interesting how fundamentalists in this question always call any abortion murder... but they have trouble calling all those women who have an abortion murderers... which would just be logic.

Fearing the backlash?
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 17:59||   2008-08-17 17:59|| Front Page Top

#33 Fearing the backlash?

Sherese, in my anecdotal experience, every woman I've ever known who had an abortion suffered for years because of it and probably never really got over it mentally. I don't think it's necessary for anyone else to call them that; I think they already know in their hearts and it saddens them deeply. As it should, since killing babies is an ugly, ugly thing that simply shouldn't happen.

You can't tell me there aren't places for these babies to go, either, since I've known at least four people who have gone to foreign countries to adopt. Any American woman who is willing to have her baby can find a good home for it quite easily. Here, at least, there's no good reason for abortion, particularly late-term abortion. It's simply not justifiable.
Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-17 18:16||   2008-08-17 18:16|| Front Page Top

#34 Post-birth abortion clinics of the 1930's and 40's:

Auschwitz Birkenau
Belzec
Chelmno
Jasenovac
Maly Trostenents
Treblinka
Sobibor
Posted by Besoeker 2008-08-17 18:18||   2008-08-17 18:18|| Front Page Top

#35 Re #31: More than 10% doesn't make it right.

Re #32: I'm not a fundamentalist.

Re #33: Two of my three kids are adopted.

Re #34: I almost said that myself.
Posted by Darrell 2008-08-17 20:02||   2008-08-17 20:02|| Front Page Top

#36 As far as I am aware, we are the only species in all of creation which practices it.

Your ignorance on this subject is shocking.

Rabbits, among others, have the ability to absorb their embryos back into their bodies. Most species, however, rid themselves of unwanted young by simply killing (and sometimes eating) them after birth.

I trust you are reconciled to the entire idea of abortion now that you are enlightened? No? Then don't use this silly argument.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2008-08-17 20:14||   2008-08-17 20:14|| Front Page Top

#37 Most species, however, rid themselves of unwanted young by simply killing (and sometimes eating) them after birth.

I'll take a rain check on dinner at your house tonight Angie.
Posted by Besoeker 2008-08-17 20:18||   2008-08-17 20:18|| Front Page Top

#38 I hate abortion discussions. They give those who would tolerate murder social acceptability.

For me, the choice is pretty stark here. It's not quite Reagan/Carter or Nixon/McGovern, but it's become far more clear than it was.

Ima thinkin it will be starker by November.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-08-17 20:39||   2008-08-17 20:39|| Front Page Top

#39 One of the biggest reasons why I truly hate the libs is because they're so willing to countenance the brutal killing of the innocent (abortion) while so adamantly against killing those who truly deserve it (murderers). Their priorities are about as out of whack as they could possibly be.
Posted by Waldemar Uneack9263 2008-08-17 20:53||   2008-08-17 20:53|| Front Page Top

#40 I'll take a rain check on dinner at your house tonight Angie.

Awww, too bad. We're having roast kid!

Really, if you're going to use the "It just ain't nacheral!" argument you have to be prepared to find that is jolly well is nacheral after all.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2008-08-17 20:56||   2008-08-17 20:56|| Front Page Top

#41 There are those who've had abortions for what they believe to be the right reasons, and who feel no guilt over it, but only the determination to do right by those children they actually bear.
Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife  2008-08-17 21:03||   2008-08-17 21:03|| Front Page Top

#42 "We're having roast kid!"
LOL! Ima thinkerin a higher than average portion of Rantburg regulars are carnivores.
Posted by Darrell 2008-08-17 21:03||   2008-08-17 21:03|| Front Page Top

#43 Tastes vary, but I've never much cared for goat, adult or young'n.
Posted by lotp 2008-08-17 21:05||   2008-08-17 21:05|| Front Page Top

#44 The question is, when does it become "protected human life"

Scientifically speaking, a fertilized egg is a self-integrating, genetically distinct life.

Anything else is rationalization.

Barack Obama was one of Illinois' foremost abortion enthusiasts in the state Senate. I have seen nothing from him that suggests his stance has changed.
Posted by eLarson 2008-08-17 22:36||   2008-08-17 22:36|| Front Page Top

#45 You can adopt a lot of reasonable position towards abortion but McCain's point is a truly extremist one (and I think his position has changed quite a bit).

A few points

1) Abortion is never something desirable. Just when it starts becoming a crime is a matter of much debate. Universal consensus only exists that killing a child after birth is a crime.

2) All abortion laws need to reconcile the rights of the unborn with the rights of the mother. A woman is not a body that can be forced to bear a child without any regards to her health or psyche or will.

3) Everything should be done to convince a woman to bear the child. She should be helped but she should not be forced.

4) If an abortion has to be done make sure it can be done as early a possible. Do not prevent women from getting a "day after pill" and do not prevent her from getting the abortion she positively wants by delaying the process.

5) Keep in mind that "liberals" (or whatever you call them, at least most of them, do not take abortion lightly. Reasonable abortion laws have proven to bring DOWN the number of actual abortion. Germany or Switzerland have (fairly) liberal abortion laws but have a much lower percentage of abortion than "intolerant" countries like Portugal, Ireland or Poland.

When Germany enacted liberal abortion laws in the 70s, the number of abortions fell dramatically, and of course also the number of women dying while getting a (botched) abortion.

6) Stop bringing "nature" into it. Nature is cruel. Many animals will kill some of their newborns if they deem them too weak or for whatever reason do not want them.

Bottom Line: If you are truly "pro-life" reasonable abortion laws will help your case. Less unborn children will die.

Of course you can opt for "moral principles", declare fertilized cells as human beings and think you are off the hook easily. You are not.

Re Obama: I wouldn't have answered the question in such a flippant way. But it is a question that is not answered easily and with authority.

"At what point does a baby get human rights, in your view?

I couldn't answer it. But I can tell you that a fertilized cell is not a baby and therefore does not have "human rights".

Btw a sperm or an ovum already qualifies as "life", biologically.

Even the Bible doesn't take such a radical view a McCain.

Lev 17:11 (and other places) indicate that life is in the blood. Without blood there is no life and with life there is blood.

The fertilized ovum has no blood yet.
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 22:44||   2008-08-17 22:44|| Front Page Top

#46 If it has the potential to grow into an intelligent being, let it live if it doesn't kill the mother.
Posted by Barak YoMama 2008-08-17 22:49||   2008-08-17 22:49|| Front Page Top

#47 I had to resist to make a snark remark (regarding born people)
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 23:08||   2008-08-17 23:08|| Front Page Top

#48 This is a fascinating string of comments, but I wonder if anyone has actually read Roe v. Wade, including all the opinions.

It doesn't really mean what most of us think it means, and it certainly had some unintended consequences.
Posted by Halliburton - Idiot Suppression Division 2008-08-17 23:15||   2008-08-17 23:15|| Front Page Top

#49 From Wikipedia

"The central holding of Roe v. Wade was that abortions are permissible for any reason a woman chooses, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable,’ that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks." The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health, which the Court defined broadly in the companion case of Doe v. Bolton. These court rulings affected laws in 46 states.
Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-17 23:24||   2008-08-17 23:24|| Front Page Top

23:54 Sherese Jones6358
23:43 Frank G
23:33 Sherese Jones6358
23:27 Frank G
23:24 Sherese Jones6358
23:15 Halliburton - Idiot Suppression Division
23:08 Sherese Jones6358
22:49 Barak YoMama
22:44 Sherese Jones6358
22:41 Another Darrell
22:36 eLarson
22:30 Red Dawg
22:16 Frank G
22:07 Pappy
21:58 Seafarious
21:54 Frank G
21:49 Frank G
21:44 Abu do you love
21:40 JosephMendiola
21:28 Deacon Blues
21:27 Red Dawg
21:23 JosephMendiola
21:20 JosephMendiola
21:15 Don Vito Snusort2682









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