Article

2008-08-18 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-18 09:55|| || Front Page|| [4 views ] Top

#1 "... is to show a greater understanding of why Russia behaves as it does, to accept more willingly Russia's concerns for its Near Abroad."

AKA appease them. What is it with the Brits that their first response is appeasement? Is this something they teach over there?

Understanding is fine but ultimately pointless. It is actions that have to be dealt with.

Okay poor old Russia has these mental problems so we have to understand why they invaded the Ukraine again. But what do we do about it?

Posted by AlanC 2008-08-18 10:51|| 2008-08-18 10:51|| Front Page Top

#2 Even wife batterers have friends.

Posted by Perfesser 2008-08-18 11:22|| 2008-08-18 11:22|| Front Page Top

#3 His point was that in the past we may have prevented the present (certainly almost always true to one degree or another).

And understanding one's opponent is a surer path to victory than force of arms alone.

Without a doubt Russia's current actions can not be condoned, and our actions must make that fact clear. However, without understanding our old adversary we are doomed to an escalation without a winner. I grew up during the Cold War, I remember the "Duck and Cover" drills when they were "live" in the public schools, and I have have no desire to return to that mentality.

Azerbaijan(sp?) boarders Iran. And the way Iran is heading we wll be at war with them very soon (as in between 2 Nov 08 and 21 Jan 09). Russia already leans far towards supporting Iran, I consider their actions in Georgia possibly as clearing a path to support Iran.

So where does that leave us?

Posted by DLR 2008-08-18 12:08|| http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html]">[http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html] 2008-08-18 12:08|| Front Page Top

#4 AlanC, if you understand why a player does things you then have foreknowledge of when they may do things in the future. It does not always mean appeasement.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-18 12:09|| 2008-08-18 12:09|| Front Page Top

#5 AKA appease them. What is it with the Brits that their first response is appeasement? Is this something they teach over there?

No the Brits are pissed as hell at Russia, more than anyone else in old Europe. Its just a selection bias in the columns being posted here.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-18 12:13|| 2008-08-18 12:13|| Front Page Top

#6 His point was that in the past we may have prevented the present (certainly almost always true to one degree or another).

I dont see how by going even softer than we have, we could have prevented this.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-18 12:14|| 2008-08-18 12:14|| Front Page Top

#7 I think it was the Instapundit that said this: the best way to refute the Russian apologists is to let them have their say. Their arguments are self-refuting.

Posted by Mike 2008-08-18 12:24|| 2008-08-18 12:24|| Front Page Top

#8 We don't need to start the next world war. Plenty of others are chaffing at the bit.

Posted by Richard of Oregon 2008-08-18 12:53|| 2008-08-18 12:53|| Front Page Top

#9 Several of you are missing the last half of that sentence.

"...to accept more willingly Russia's concerns for its Near Abroad."

I'm all for understanding even though I think that it is over-rated. It's the willing acceptance that's indicates the appeaser mind set.

There really isn't all that much to understand in foreign relations like this anyway. It is trivial to identify who did what to whom and when. All you need to understand is the desire for power; greed by another name.

While understaning may help with tactics it doesn't do much for strategy cause when all is said and done it is the actions that must be dealt with not the psychology of the performers.

What they want is important; why they want it? Not so much.

Posted by AlanC 2008-08-18 13:48|| 2008-08-18 13:48|| Front Page Top

#10 "For me, the right course for the West ... is to show a greater understanding of why Russia behaves as it does, to accept more willingly Russia's concerns for its ~~Near Abroad~~ Lebensraum."

Really, Neville?

Color me not surprised. >:-(

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2008-08-18 14:16|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/] 2008-08-18 14:16|| Front Page Top

#11 "the problems arising from minority enclaves in such circumstances are fundamentally political, rather than purely military."
I think he's saying that Mexico should not invade Southern California until all diplomatic efforts have failed.

Posted by Darrell 2008-08-18 14:39|| 2008-08-18 14:39|| Front Page Top

#12 Everyone is worried about upsetting Russia and starting WWIII. There are 3 nuclear weapons states in NATO, in addition, Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey all host nuclear weapons on their territory. I say contain russia. If they don't like it, tough squat. They are a broken empire that is rapidly slipping into oblivion despite their newfound petro dollars witch have a minimally distributive effect on its economy.

Posted by Crolurong Turkeyneck5459 2008-08-18 14:49|| 2008-08-18 14:49|| Front Page Top

#13 An excellent demonstration of why Britain is struggling to be a second rate power. Jackson may not be representative of the average Brit, but he is representative of the British establishment. And he can do a mean moonwalk.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-08-18 15:31|| 2008-08-18 15:31|| Front Page Top

#14 I think he's saying that Mexico should not invade Southern California until all diplomatic efforts have failed.

Telegraphing that concept is not a good idea as Foreign Secretary Arthur Zimmermann once found out in the end. One way to get America involved in a World War by a dying empire.

Posted by Procopius2k 2008-08-18 15:45|| 2008-08-18 15:45|| Front Page Top

#15 Gosh, I feel so bad for poor, poor put-upon Russia.

Honest. There could even be tears...

Posted by mojo">mojo 2008-08-18 15:56|| 2008-08-18 15:56|| Front Page Top

#16 Since, by most reckoning, we're currently in the middle of WWIV, he seems a bit behind the times.

Posted by Elmamble Darling of the Veal Cutlets5711 2008-08-18 18:00|| 2008-08-18 18:00|| Front Page Top

#17 If the West is serious about containing Russia, what they need to do is cut back on imports of Russian natural gas.

Posted by Woozle Unusosing8053 2008-08-18 19:01|| 2008-08-18 19:01|| Front Page Top

#18 AlanC, you're right, i missed that last sentence. My point stands but you are right in saying he seeks appeasement. It does sound that way to some extant.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-18 19:22|| 2008-08-18 19:22|| Front Page Top

#19 Again, IMO Russia may covertly be using their conflict wid Georgia as PDeniable cover to contain/isolate NUCLEARIZING IRAN = RADICAL ISLAM [States + Militants-Terror Groups] IN ITS CENTER, + AMBITIOUS OVERPOPULATED NUKE-ARMED CHINA ON ITS FAR EAST. BOTH THE MUSLIM WORLD + CHINA HAVE HIGH BIRTH = POPUL GROWTH RATES, WHILE RUSSIA IS DEMOGRAPHICALLY DYING = GETTING OLDER.

* KOMMERSANT/OTHER > IIRC by 2020, FOR EVERY 1000 RUSSIANS OVER 800-plus OF THESE WILL BE POST-MIDDLE-AGED IFF NOT QUALIFIED SENIOR CITIZENS, + NON-WORKING RETIRED OR ABOUT TO RETIRE.

Russia > Population forecasted to shrink down to 135Milyuhn, + be a mostly GERIATRIC SOCIETY IN HIGH DEMAND FOR GOVT-BASED PUBLIC/ELDER ASSISTANCE.

IOW, RUSSIA > A NUKE-ARMED, GIANT "FLORIDA" = RETIREMENT COMUNITY-HOME, surrounded by YOUNG, ALSO NUKE-ARMED, MUSLIM/CHINESE-ASIAN HIPPIE YIPPIES OR "BOYZ IN THE HOOD", ETC.???

It would not be the first time TSARIST RUSSIA nor post-IMPERIAL/ROMANOV COMMIE USSR USED MIL AGGRESSION AS A COVER FOR LT OR PERCEIEVD STRATEGIC WEAKNESS.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-08-18 20:42|| 2008-08-18 20:42|| Front Page Top

#20 World War 3 will be Saudi Arabia + the Bush Crime Family Versus USA

Wasting the people's money on worthless wars.

Serving the saudis in the white house

Posted by Clorong Untervehr8872 2008-08-18 21:36|| 2008-08-18 21:36|| Front Page Top

#21 Mmmm... serving Saudis! Saud to taste?

Posted by Darrell 2008-08-18 21:38|| 2008-08-18 21:38|| Front Page Top

#22 World War 3 will be...

A perfect argument against posting-under-the-influence.

Posted by Mothers Against Drunk Commenters 2008-08-18 21:48|| 2008-08-18 21:48|| Front Page Top

#23 #21 Mmmm... serving Saudis! Saud to taste?
Posted by: Darrell

yuuuuck. You ever tried to clean one?

/old cannibal joke

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-08-18 22:15|| 2008-08-18 22:15|| Front Page Top

#24 as in "g man" what a waste of flesh and blood.

Posted by Frank G 2008-08-18 23:46|| 2008-08-18 23:46|| Front Page Top

#25 How sweet! And smart too. Managed to post DNS info all by himself.

How proud your family must be!

Posted by badanov 2008-08-18 23:50|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org] 2008-08-18 23:50|| Front Page Top

23:57 Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields
23:50 badanov
23:46 Waldemar Uneack9263
23:46 Frank G
23:40 Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields
23:35 Abdominal Snowman
23:33 JosephMendiola
23:25 Weakling
23:25 JosephMendiola
23:24 Red Dawg
23:21 Waldemar Crerenter9118
23:20 ima moron
23:19 Red Dawg
23:18 JosephMendiola
23:15 Red Dawg
23:14 Pappy
23:13 JosephMendiola
23:11 JosephMendiola
23:10 Abdominal Snowman
23:08 badanov
23:08 Anguper Hupomosing9418
23:08 Pappy
23:05 Red Dawg
23:03 Anguper Hupomosing9418