Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Fri 09/24/2004 View Thu 09/23/2004 View Wed 09/22/2004 View Tue 09/21/2004 View Mon 09/20/2004 View Sun 09/19/2004 View Sat 09/18/2004
1
2004-09-24 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
Iran does not need nuclear weapons - Putin
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-09-24 8:13:04 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 ssss..heh, heh. The beast Puty created is starting to look at him like he's dinner.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Just like in WWII, the Russians will join with us to fight our common threat - not out of love - but out of naked self-interest.

Islamo fascists are a cancer that needs to be excised or they will kill us all.
Posted by 2B 2004-09-24 8:46:01 AM||   2004-09-24 8:46:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 with Jack Straw making noise about extradition reform, and Russia talking to Israel about security cooperation, and Putin saying the above, perhaps a grand bargain with Russia is in the cards?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-24 8:53:29 AM||   2004-09-24 8:53:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 As I say, fellow 'mericans, Look East. NATO's useless to the real challenges facing us. Russia and India are far more valuable to us now than any W European nation, including the UK. I wish it weren't so, but that's how it is, and the sooner we realize it the higher the chance we can actually contain an Iran that inevitably will go nuclear.

Putin may be a thug, but we desperately need him to be on our side vs Iran-- much more than we need Tony or any other west European. We desperately need Russia's help, they desperately need ours. Such is the cold hard logic of strategic alliance.
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 9:42:51 AM||   2004-09-24 9:42:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Thanks, Lex.. guess you won't be needing us in Basra then. Tit.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-24 9:46:37 AM||   2004-09-24 9:46:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Lex spoke for hemself, not the rest of us.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-24 9:49:13 AM||   2004-09-24 9:49:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Putin needs to back away from this KGB-lite bullsh*t he is engaged in. Stop f*cking with the press and get serious about why we need to win the war on terror.
Posted by badanov  2004-09-24 9:52:30 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-09-24 9:52:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 You're not in our gang any more cos we've got Russia, nah nah nah!
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-24 9:52:57 AM||   2004-09-24 9:52:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Howard,

I wish that Tony and Straw were as steadfast vs Iran as their brave squaddies have been in Iraq.

Love Tony and appreciate all he's done but Phase II, the Iranian Phase, is here, and Tony's got the wrong approach. Jack Straw's ridiculous errand unto the wilderness of Teheran is undermining the cause of containing the mullahs, who pose a far bigger threat to us than anything or anyone in Basra. In fact much of the threat in the shi'a parts of Iraq is of Iranian origin.

If Tony would halt Straw's mischief and vigorously support us on containing Iran via force, I'd gladly change my tune on this. I see no prospect of that happening. Do you?
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 9:55:10 AM||   2004-09-24 9:55:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Admittedly, talking to the Mullahs is like pissing into the wind. However, when you go in there you're going to need a few battalions of Scots and the Royal Flying Corps to tackle some of the nasty bits. Unless you'd trust the Russians to do a better job.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-24 10:02:19 AM||   2004-09-24 10:02:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Howard, would be ties with UK and Russia mutually exclusive? If Vlad is sincere, I see a mutual benefit, no matter how I turn it around. I am sure there would be a plenty to do in Iran that both parties can participate without stepping on each other's toes.

Re Jack Straw, whenever I see his face on teevee, an urge to teleport and beat him up silly overcomes me.
Posted by Memesis 2004-09-24 10:13:06 AM||   2004-09-24 10:13:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 when you go in there you're going to need a few battalions of Scots and the Royal Flying Corps to tackle some of the nasty bits

Could not agree more, and the Russian military is so corrupt, incompetent and demoralized as to be useless. I'm trying to point out here what our media elite idiots, our stuck in the cold war military leaders and our distracted pols are incapable of seeing: Putin holds nearly all the trumps re Iran. At the same time, Putin's own state is failing, which means Putin is Musharraf in whiteface, and his failing frontline state urgently requires as much attention and tough love, if you will, as we have devoted to Musharraf's regime.
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 10:15:39 AM||   2004-09-24 10:15:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Howard UK, we do appreciate your help, but I'm hoping your folks won't have to "tackle some of the nasty bits." Israel did not have to invade Iraq after taking out Iraq's reactor, and I see no reason for us to invade Iran after Israel takes out Iran's nuclear and mullah facilities. What are the mullahs going to do? Threaten Israel's right to exist?
Posted by Tom 2004-09-24 10:16:46 AM||   2004-09-24 10:16:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Tom, Osirak was a single site, all the goodies concentrated in one spot.

Iran is different. Stuff is dispersed all over place. So, it won't be such a piece of cake as was Osirak.
Posted by Memesis 2004-09-24 10:20:56 AM||   2004-09-24 10:20:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Hell yes, having the Russians on side should be no bad thing - it's just Lex's 'everyone else can f*ck off now we've got the Russians and India(!?) to exert political pressure on our behalf' tone that vexed me. Grrr.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-24 10:23:16 AM||   2004-09-24 10:23:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 vex? It doesn't make sense to me...There are Allies, and tehn tehre are allies. The US/UK/Aus axis is culturally close and historically the strongest. We need to maintain that in perpetuity for the democratic ideas inherent in all three gov'ts. That said, Straw is disgusting in his sucking up to the mullahs, who are playing him for time...
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-24 10:30:10 AM||   2004-09-24 10:30:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 and tehn tehre are typos...preview is my friend....
Posted by Frank G  2004-09-24 10:30:48 AM||   2004-09-24 10:30:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Amen, Farnk.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-24 10:36:15 AM||   2004-09-24 10:36:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Howard, Bulldog and their ilk are indeed true friends of the US. But what if Blair does not survive politically? If new elections are called and the Tories are too weak nationally to prevent Labor from winning, what are the chances that the next Labor PM (Browne?) will be as pro-US as Blair?
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 10:38:59 AM||   2004-09-24 10:38:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 "Iran is different. Stuff is dispersed all over place."
Memesis, Japan was dispersed all over the place in August 1945 too.
Posted by Tom 2004-09-24 10:43:15 AM||   2004-09-24 10:43:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Ditto re Latham/Zapatero in Australia.
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 10:43:17 AM||   2004-09-24 10:43:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Yup, a moot point. Agreed.
Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-24 11:09:02 AM||   2004-09-24 11:09:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Sorry for my earlier, needlessly grating tone, Howard. Appreciate your and the squaddies' steadfast and continued support.

best,
lex
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 11:12:23 AM||   2004-09-24 11:12:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Don't get vexatious with our brothers in the U.K.

"Trust but verify" still works for me per Russia.
Some what like counting ones fingers when dealing with certain "ethicnic groups"
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom  2004-09-24 11:38:39 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com]  2004-09-24 11:38:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 IIUC Gordon Browne is just as pro-US as Tony. He may be more domestically focused and will spend less time in DC than Tony, but that may not be a bad thing.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-24 11:44:42 AM||   2004-09-24 11:44:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Browne will still be more pro-US than Vlad ;)

Hell, Latham may be more pro-US than Vlad. Why is Latham anti-US? cause he wants to take Aussie troops out of Iraq? How many Russian troops are in Iraq? Aussie will still be active in the rest of the world.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-24 11:46:56 AM||   2004-09-24 11:46:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 LH - hope you're right re Browne but in any case Putin has nearly all the trump cards re Iran. If we don't get him on our side, we're screwed.
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 11:53:15 AM||   2004-09-24 11:53:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 1. you assume that the only way to deal effectively with Iran is to get Russia to withold techs. While other courses have their disadvantages, Im not sure this is the only one.
2. You assume this would be effective. Im not sure Iran isnt capable of moving ahead on its own at this point. Im also not sure Russia is at all interested in cooperating.

In any case Im not sure that theres a direct tradeoff between a deal with Russia and our relationship with either Coalition of the Willing countries like UK or Australia, or Russias fellow weasels like France and Germany.

And there MAY be a tradeoff between a deal with Russia and what we're doing everywhere else, depending on what Russia wants. Russias interests potentially conflict with Turkeys, with our new Eastern European allies, with Pakistan, with Azerbaijan and Georgia, etc. Just as too close a relationship with India could complicate our relations with Pakistan.

This is not to say that we shouldnt strengthen our relations with India and Russia, and explore a grand bargain with Putin. But our old allies are far from valueless, and Russia is far from an ideal ally.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-24 12:15:55 PM||   2004-09-24 12:15:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Bulldog, Howard UK, we love you! And we need you too, Churchill's the man.

But let's get global here. Your PC and our PC aren't doing any favors to those of us who support the ideas of William Blackstone and William Jefferson.

Like WWII, we both need Russia. Oh sure, when all is said and done, Putin will still be sucking blood from his countrymen - but bloodsucking is better than what the Islamist's want to do, behead!

Let's stick together!! Don't let the PC nuts - no matter what nationality - drive those of us, who value the voice of the people, apart!

you go boys!!

Posted by 2B 2004-09-24 12:21:43 PM||   2004-09-24 12:21:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 William Jefferson???? I must be high! I meant Thomas!!
Posted by 2B 2004-09-24 12:22:31 PM||   2004-09-24 12:22:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 2B - You Blythe-ly made a Freudian slip. Tsk, tsk...
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-24 12:24:42 PM||   2004-09-24 12:24:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Between this thread and a Niall Ferguson Spectator article, Britain First, I just posted, I am going to get a drink,
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-24 1:44:55 PM||   2004-09-24 1:44:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 William Blackstone and William Jefferson
kewl! ah just knew ah'm still top of mind for y'all
Posted by William Jefferson Clinton 2004-09-24 1:49:08 PM||   2004-09-24 1:49:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 LH - I don't assume anything except that 1) Russia's criminalized, failing state makes its nukes especially vulnerable to theft and re-sale by FSB or Russian Army or mafiya or other rogue elements to Iran, and 2) Iran will in turn arm its AQ and other proxies for dirty nuke attacks on US targets.

No amount of Nunn-Lugar money or resources will solve problem #1. The likelihood of both #1 and #2 make it worth some horse-trading with Putin.

At Yalta, Churchill traded Poland and Bulgaria for Greece and (I think) Austria. Putin is a lot less virulent, and less powerful by far, than Stalin. We can deal with him.

And of course there's no trade-off btn support for Russia and support for real allies like UK and Australia; my point is that NATO sucks up an absurd amount of our bandwidth at a time when crafting a viable and beneficial security relationship Russia will demand huge amounts of time, planning, consultation and senior-level care and feeding.
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 1:57:16 PM||   2004-09-24 1:57:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 condis a russia expert, and Bush has been stroking Vlad since he (Bush) took office. I really dont see any shortage of attention to Russia.

NATO is still useful in Afghanistan, in Iraq where it is about to do training, and elsewhere. And France and Germany are important apart from NATO, as economic partners.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-24 2:01:14 PM||   2004-09-24 2:01:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Why has the Bush admin starved Nunn-Lugar (not sufficient but very necessary) for funding? When did Condi last go to Russia? Where where the investment guarantees that would have unleashed a flood of oil major investment into Russia years ago, investments that could have yielded production that could soon be coming online and pushing prices down?

I don't think they've done a bad job overall with Russia-- certainly not worse than Clinton-- but it's time to elevate our game now. The stakes are getting much higher, and we don't have much time left.
Posted by lex 2004-09-24 2:20:21 PM||   2004-09-24 2:20:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Putin's own state is failing, which means Putin is Musharraf in whiteface, and his failing frontline state urgently requires as much attention and tough love, if you will, as we have devoted to Musharraf's regime.

Excellent observation, lex.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-24 5:41:14 PM||   2004-09-24 5:41:14 PM|| Front Page Top

12:42 Liberalhawk
12:42 Liberalhawk
07:09 Memesis
05:02 Sock Puppet of Doom
04:57 Zenster
03:24 Super Hose
03:13 Super Hose
03:10 Super Hose
01:05 Sock Puppet of Doom
01:04 Zhang Fei
01:02 Memesis
00:57 Mike Sylwester
00:56 .com
00:49 Super Hose
00:45 Mike Sylwester
00:45 .com
00:39 Sock Puppet of Doom
00:35 .com
00:24 Memesis
00:20 Old Patriot
00:15 Zenster
00:14 Bomb-a-rama
00:12 Memesis
23:53 Zhang Fei









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com