Article

2006-10-05 International-UN-NGOs

Vatican-Muslim dialogue back to square one: cardinal

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Posted by Steve White 2006-10-05 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The Pope & Co are not accomplishing anything - they blew their chance to do something truly substantial when they did not stand up to Islam and tried to explain. Sad, that. All the logical arguments are wasted on Islam. It was perceived as weakness. Period.

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 00:44|| 2006-10-05 00:44|| Front Page Top

#2 HHHHHHMMMMMMM, HHHHHMMMMMM, "Mis-interpretation of text/speech" versus "America + West + World must submit to Islam-Allah".

Posted by JosephMendiola 2006-10-05 00:48|| 2006-10-05 00:48|| Front Page Top

#3 Hey Muslims! Go screw yourselves, along with your pedophile punk prophet MO (spit). You've got two choices: change or be radioactive glass. My money, given your track record of idiocy, is on the second. YOUR DESTRUCTION WILL BE NO NET LOSS!

Posted by mac 2006-10-05 01:39|| 2006-10-05 01:39|| Front Page Top

#4 The Pope & Co are not accomplishing anything

Maybe. But they are talking to Europe as much as to Islamic countries. Watch them carefully raise the heat over persecution of Christian minorities, using language common in the EU for other minorities.

And then let's see if there is any integrity left in Europe or if the words that come out of Brussels etc. are only codewords.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-05 05:26|| 2006-10-05 05:26|| Front Page Top

#5 It was perceived as weakness. Period.

They can't evolve out of this Neanderthal slime.

Posted by Duh! 2006-10-05 05:39|| 2006-10-05 05:39|| Front Page Top

#6 We need to hear more from Western politicans supporting the Pope pointing out the lack of toleration,equality and religious freedom in Islamic countries.

Point out the fact that the Islamic countries actively teach their children to hate other religions which i for one as a Christian was never taught to hate others!!!!

Posted by Cheregum Crelet7867 2006-10-05 06:26|| 2006-10-05 06:26|| Front Page Top

#7 One cannot constantly repeat completely unfounded misunderstandings when the texts are so clear.

This guy clearly does not understand the meaning of truth for submissive Muslim and the rights and privileges pertaining thereto.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-05 06:58|| 2006-10-05 06:58|| Front Page Top

#8 I have to agree with lotp, I think this is more of a battlespace preparation than a direct confrontation with islam. The Pope can see the lack of faith(ful) in Europe. He has to rally the faithful before he can really press the islamo-nuts.

Posted by AllahHateMe 2006-10-05 08:16|| 2006-10-05 08:16|| Front Page Top

#9 And then let's see if there is any integrity left in Europe or if the words that come out of Brussels etc. are only codewords.

Frankly, what do you expect? The EUcrats have their own agenda, and the dechristianization of Europe and the erasure of its identity (identities) are part and parcel of it. If there is any reaction, any kind, it will come AGAINST the current pôwer-structure.
This whole transnational "EU" is a long term project, it dates back to the 1920's, a rejection of nationalism after WWI, it's been implemented along socialist/neo-marxist and free-masonic lines (and, no, I'm not doing conspiracy theory here) since WWII crushed the soul of europeans.
Its direct goal is to "kill" Europe, to replace it with a new transnational, socialist (or tranzi, if you prefer) "Super-State" with a new "EU man". And I believe Eurabia is real, too, an another chapter of this. To dissolve identities, you've got to attack the Nation-State, and what better way to kill it than suppressing its sovereignty from the top, and "substituting" populations from the base, resulting in a mish-mash of multicultural identities ruled with a german type of sovereignty (based on ethnicity, I think JFM olds this view of the hidden influence of Germany on this whole mess). A "neo Ottoman empire", with its millets, complete with the programmed entry of turkey into the EU.
Of course, the islamists are given a free reign here, soon (a few decades), they will have enclaves within the dead empty shells of european Nation-States.

It is an utopia not unlike the old USSR (Former Soviet Dissident Warns For EU Dictatorship), and in the end, it will fail the same, but I'm not sure Europe will survive, at least not in its current form.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-05 08:32|| 2006-10-05 08:32|| Front Page Top

#10 Beating a dead horse is easy. It's dead. Hit it all you want, it won't hit back.

Posted by DepotGuy 2006-10-05 09:06|| 2006-10-05 09:06|| Front Page Top

#11 Ratzinger isn't just speaking to Europe - African Christians know the score.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-10-05 10:55|| 2006-10-05 10:55|| Front Page Top

#12 "The Catholic Church and many people in our country and around the world, who respect and defend the right of free speech, will not be bullied"

The Muslims have awoken Ecclesia Militans (the Church Militant). Its mission is spreading and defending the Holy Mother Church, against the assaults made against her and converting the infidels. Woe be unto them who oppose.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-05 13:40|| 2006-10-05 13:40|| Front Page Top

#13 .com you;re wrong.

"something truly substantial when they did not stand up to Islam"

The Chruch DID stand up. It did so in its own way. Did you READ the Pope's apology? He regretted that they got upset over his words, but did NOT regret nor "take back" what he said that upset them: about Muhammed and Muslims using force to convert, and that being inimical to reason, as well as offensive to rationality, and wrong in the eyes of God.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-05 13:44|| 2006-10-05 13:44|| Front Page Top

#14 I agree, OS, but I think .com was getting at how it was "spun," and, thus, how the muzzies percieve what the Pope said, in the Muslim countries. It was spun as "look he apologized, let's push for more..."

Posted by BA 2006-10-05 15:19|| 2006-10-05 15:19|| Front Page Top

#15 Not being Catholic, I don't want to sound like I'm critcizing the Pope or antagonizing the Catholic Church. It took some measure of boldness and courage for the Pope to speak out as he did. And his critcisms were spot on.

But I was disappointed in his follow-up statements, and in particular where he expressed his 'deep respect' for Islam. Deep respect for a gutter death-cult? That's where he lost me. I'm sure many here agree with me when I say his initial criticisms didn't go far enough. Perhaps the motivation was to not unnecessarily offend, but I think his later comments were a clear 'backing off' of his original statement. Thus, the frustration of many, including myself.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-05 15:46|| 2006-10-05 15:46|| Front Page Top

#16 That "deep respect" thing is really overboard. It's unwarranted and unreciprocated.

Posted by Duh! 2006-10-05 16:58|| 2006-10-05 16:58|| Front Page Top

#17 Yes, the pontiff did tell them he was "sorry for their reaction" to his words but not for his words.

However, it looked to me like he shanked it w/the "deep respect" line as well. Bush, Hannity, and O'Reilly say the same thing and it makes me wince every time.

Posted by Broadhead6 2006-10-05 17:50|| 2006-10-05 17:50|| Front Page Top

#18 The Pope is one of the few Western leaders who is standing against the Muslim conquest. I believe he is not particularly concerned with how the media spin his words. He knows that the people who need to hear them - in this case primarily Western European leaders - will hear what he said. Muslim seething in this case is just a freebie demonstrating the truth of what he said.

I agree that I shudder when GWB calls Islam the "Religion of Peace", but the time for such politically correct platitudes is about over. I do not hold deep respect for Islam. In fact, I have no respect for Islam. Muslims have the right to practice Islam while tolerating other points of view, but no more. They will have to learn this lesson once again.

Posted by SR-71 2006-10-05 18:14|| 2006-10-05 18:14|| Front Page Top

#19 I shudder when GWB calls Islam the "Religion of Peace",

....or when he uses the phrase "the wonderful faith of islam."

What the bloody hell is he THINKING? Who gives him those ignorant lines? Has he no understanding? I try hard to not just respect him as our leader, but like the man as well. Sometimes he makes the liking a real chore.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-10-05 18:30|| 2006-10-05 18:30|| Front Page Top

#20 The Pope treats them as any Christian is supposed to - trying to follow the instructions in the Gospel. That's why he uses soft words on those things. But on fundamental issues, he is a rock, even moreso than was John Paul II, Magnus. And especially so when you get to the core of Islam - he is quite explicit in saying they need to abandon force and go over to faith.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-05 18:33|| 2006-10-05 18:33|| Front Page Top

#21 I stand by my comment. You've ignored my points. Preaching to the choir has not, and will not, accomplish anything - unless you think that Catholics needed firming up on what Islam actually is, an ideology of violence, domination, and hate. The message sure has gotten watered down, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not baiting you, but I completely disagree with your extremely generous view of the Pope's words and actions in this situation.

The original message was between fellows, but it got out and the professional Muzzy shit merchants manipulated it into another "outrage". The truth is, however, that the Pope started it, regardless of how it became public knowledge. So he must defend the point or he fails. I cheered him, initially, but I lost respect when he began backpedaling, and he most certainly has. Your logical arguments, as was one of my original points, are obviously wasted on Muzzies.

There is an obvious disconnect when non-zealots attempt to communicate with zealots. It makes sense, to us, to try to explain when the message gets lost or is confused, such as the idjit Muzzies putting the ancient words in the Pope's mouth. He did. Wasn't received, of course. To try again with another set of words in hopes of getting through is a Western tradition, so he did that, too. Each iteration I've seen has been slightly less honest and more conciliatory. Culminating with what I violently disagree with, the "deep respect" bullshit. Sit down... It's probably a lie. Now we have this idiocy about holding a dialog. To what end? The Pope knows the text is accurate and that the Muzzies will never accept it - so what the fuck is the point? It simply demonstrates they can drag the head of the Holy Roman Catholic Church down to their level and make him dance.

Every word that has come out of the Vatican since the 'slammies hit the streets that did not unequivocally say, "You've proven the text is correct." has been wasted, at best. They perceive the entire kerfuffle as a victory. "We cowed the Pope!" And, by their version of logic, they did. They are immune to our Western logic. Q.E.D.

And that is my point and my opinion. You're wrong.

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 18:59|| 2006-10-05 18:59|| Front Page Top

#22 .com - Not sure how much of that was aimed at me. What choir do you mean? Western leaders? EU officials are already far down the road to surrender. I think we agree on that. I think the Pope was addressing European academics, and expected the 5-10% of Christians remaining in Europe to pay attention. I don't think the Pope is or was trying to teach the Muzzies anything. He is trying to rally the West. He stated a year ago at the Sant' Angelo retreat that Muslims believe that the Koran is revealed in toto and not subject to human interpretation. At his meeting with the Muslim ambassadors, he refused to allow them to answer. Calling for dialogue instead of for Crusade is a placeholder.

The Pope sees clearly that the Islamic Reformation is not what we in the West had hoped for - it is Islamic facism.

Here in America, barely 50% understand what we face. GWB sees. He gets it, but the country has not followed him. The only Protestant leader to speak out was Franklin Graham, and the MSM nearly destroyed him. The Pope is in an even worse position. Europe is nearly lost, and the Church has been weakened by 50 years of Vatican II, Liberation Theology, and pacifism.

I hate to throw him under the bus for the same reasons we refuse to throw W under the bus.

Posted by SR-71 2006-10-05 20:03|| 2006-10-05 20:03|| Front Page Top

#23 Deep respect is a proper term - and its respect for the depth of their faith, not neccesarily the full content of it.

The Catechism teaches:

CCC: 870... many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its [The Church] visible confines.

The Pope is bound by this - and his decorum and"deep respect" is based on the fact that there is some truth and evidence of God in Islam. Its been overshadowed by thier resoprt to force and rejection of reason -- which was the point of the Pope's entire speech.

This is a courtesy extended evne to essential atheists like the Buddhists (more accurately, non-theists).

So do do or say otherwise would have been contrary to the faith the Pope holds.

It doenst matter if the arguments are wasted, as a Catholic he is required to make them. In the words of our Founding Fathers, " a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare" the reasons and reasoning. Were those words wasted? Certainly King George ignored them the way the Muslims ignore the content to e Pope has presented them. But its the RIGHT thing to do.

And you claim that the muslims "won"? You're dead wrong - you been hitting the pipe with Kos? If they "won" why are they still asking for an apology? Why hasn't the Pope taken back the words? Hmm?
I think you need to step back .com - you're dead wrong and appreaing to be bigoted and ignorant from where I stand.

"Culminating with what I violently disagree with, the "deep respect" bullshit. ""

You're saying the Pope publicly and deliberately lied? (And you insinuate that he continues to lie). Declaiming the Pope's honesty? PROVE IT Show a lie. And show how he keeps lying and getting worse. Otherwise you're off base and should back down and apologize. And despite your "youre wrong" comment, I'm right - sorry to say you're utterly wrong,and worse, incapable of recognizing it.

Sit down... It's probably a lie."

Sorry .com - that sealed it for me. Your biases have overcome your reason. You're not going to get away with liberal mischaracterizations and smear tactics here.

To put it in language plain enough that even you can understand it through your personal filters:

You're full of shit on this.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-05 20:12|| 2006-10-05 20:12|| Front Page Top

#24 Fruther from CCC 841:

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

However it does caution against them jsut a few paraghraphs later:

CCC 844: In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

CCC 847: This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

In light of this the Pope's remarks and actions are consistent with his faith.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-05 20:33|| 2006-10-05 20:33|| Front Page Top

#25 While I concur with .com in how the Pope missed a sterling opportunity to point out exactly how violent Islam is, with respect to their reactions to the Regensburg speech, Oldspook is making some extremely important points that must not be ignored. First, about the Pope's apology:

But I was disappointed in his follow-up statements, and in particular where he expressed his 'deep respect' for Islam.

mcsegeek1, please cut and paste (with a link) the passage where the Pope expresses a "deep respect for Islam" which, despite your quotation marks, you have made into a statement.

Here is the text of a follow-up to (not the original of) his (non) "apology", as I have been able to find it.

"I hope that in several occasions during the visit ... my deep respect for great religions, in particular for Muslims - who worship the one God and with whom we are engaged in defending and promoting together social justice, moral values, peace and freedom for all men - has emerged clearly," Benedict said during his weekly audience at the Vatican.

During another thread here, someone made the important distinction that, the Pope, as God's direct representative here on earth, must love and respect all of God's creations, no matter how deluded or mislead. Muslims certainly qualify for that definition.

NOWHERE does Benedict admit a "deep respect for Islam". Even as a scientific agnostic I have found much to admire in Pope Benedict. I made this clear in my lengthy post about his Regensburg speech.

Of all the Popes in my lifetime, Benedict strikes me as an exceptionally erudite man. His extremely careful choice of words demands excruciatingly close reading. Otherwise critical context and perspective easily can be lost. Just as with what the media so fondly calls his original "apology"

At this time, I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.

These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought.

This guy has iron-clad plausible deniability built in at the factory. Nor did he ever actually apologize or back down from his words..com, I know that you wanted stronger language. You and I both agree that the clock is ticking down to midnight and that anything less than blunt trauma is merely rearranging the Titanic's deck chairs. I do think that lotp is correct in her assessment that Benedict's speech was more couched for his European audience than for Muslims. Moreover, I consider the Pope to have very pointedly confronted Islam with his demands that Muslim-majority countries begin allowing for freedom of religion.

These are merely the opening salvos from an exceptionally eloquent and powerful man. I remain confident, if indeed impatient, that Benedict will not let down his flock nor, by extension, the Western world. Reads this man's word with extreme care. He lards them with many layers of important meaning and picks them with care.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-05 20:58|| 2006-10-05 20:58|| Front Page Top

#26 SR-71 - I was responding to OS, since he didn't opine but stated I was factually wrong. Funny, the facts of who said what support me.

OS - Dead wrong and incapable of admitting it, a Kos Kiddie hitting the pipe, bigoted, ignorant, using smear tactics, biased and unreasoning, full of shit, and owing an apology. Lol. Right. I don't dope or drink, so my faculties are fine. I didn't smear anyone, just said the obvious - for most non-Catholics, anyway.

Apparently there are some interesting similarities between people of deep faith, regardless of the brand. Seems you see the world through the Catholic filter - but I'm the one who's blind. Right.

The truth is independent of faith or belief. The statement that the Pope holds "deep respect for Islam" certainly strikes me as less than honest. Your reasoning for what he means is interesting to me as a Westerner, but it went right over the Muzzies' heads. And that observation pisses you off? Um, so what? I'm not a Catholic. Did you expect something different? Really? To me, he's just another guy who has stepped in something and is backpedaling. If thinking so and saying it aloud gives you cause to get personal, then back at ya - Fuck Off. BTW, just who the fuck do you think you are? Geez, you've just flushed the "deep respect" I had for you, not that you care.

No apology will be forthcoming, I'm just an observer and the only axe I have to grind is the truth.

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 21:02|| 2006-10-05 21:02|| Front Page Top

#27 He said "lards"

heh heh heh heh heh

*ducks and runs for cover while the big boys slug it out*

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 21:03|| 2006-10-05 21:03|| Front Page Top

#28 As to the article:

Vatican-Muslim dialogue back to square one

I call bullshit. Vatican - Muslim relations have never gotten beyond "square one" so that they could fall back to square one.

The Muslims could give a shit about Catholicism except as one more flavor of Kuffar to behead or subjugate, in that order. To say that Muslims even seek dialogue is pandering to Islam in the extreme.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-05 21:04|| 2006-10-05 21:04|| Front Page Top

#29 The current Pope and the Catholic catechism are not the only prominent Christians to express respect for Islam -- if not for the behavior of Islamacists, past or present.

Charles Williams, one of the Inklings along with C.S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien, was not Catholic but felt that the deep concern for discipline and holiness that characterized Islamic surrender to God came as close as one might to the full truth without Christ.

Would Williams have made excuses for current Islamic terror? I'm rather sure he wouldn't. Nor do I much like his personality as it emerges from his writings. But he was quite influential as a writer and highly respected by many -- including Lewis, who was a bit younger -- for his own spirituality.

Which might give us a little pause when making the sweeping sorts of claims that .com and others have made, either about the Pope or about Islam. I disagree that it is solely a death cult. I think you'll find that many of the Hispanic women who are converting to Islam -- and some of them ARE converting and probably more will over the next decade -- do so because it offers them a structure and a bulwark against a corrupt and exploitative culture that is nominally "Christian". They know they're giving up some freedom (perhaps they don't realize how much, if/when their society tips to being majority Muslim), but they also find a kind of inner freedom in the discipline that Islam at its best pursues.

And that is somewhat reminiscent of the early desert monastic Christians, among others.

If you take the lazy way out and refuse to see what is or might be perceived as good in Islam, you will be blind to why there is a very real chance it will *convert* many people -- and not all of them by the sword.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-05 21:12|| 2006-10-05 21:12|| Front Page Top

#30 To emphasize my own agreement with .com's stress upon just how important forceful and unequivocal declarations are at this point, I will say that Benedict seems to have taken Oscar Wilde a little too seriously when that famous English wit said:

"It is best to mince one's word finely as it make them so much easier to eat afterwards."

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-05 21:14|| 2006-10-05 21:14|| Front Page Top

#31 Any "good" is Islam is pointless if it is submissive to the bad.

Posted by Darrell 2006-10-05 21:19|| 2006-10-05 21:19|| Front Page Top

#32 If those declarations are needed right now -- and we're getting closer to that time IMO -- then they are not needed by the Pope yet. Or by POTUS.

Each of those leaders have massive responsibilities. They may not allow themselves the indulgence of the sort of black and white, nuke 'em till they glow, who gives a damn about consequences rhetoric that is so satisfying to some of us here.

Instead, they bear real responsibility for the outcomes of their speech. And they are acting accordingly IMO.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-05 21:19|| 2006-10-05 21:19|| Front Page Top

#33 lotp - I didn't make any sweeping claims about the Pope. I observed the sequence of events and gave my view of the effective results, on-topic with the article.

I find no redeeming value in Islam. I see it as an ideology which cannot co-exist with any other, responds with violence when it fails to gain dominance in other ways, thus a fundamentally dangerous force in the world. I differ with you on that very important point. But neither of us felt the need to get personal. Funny, no?

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 21:21|| 2006-10-05 21:21|| Front Page Top

#34 Well, I'm not Catholic, nor do I come from a heritage that was. I truly have no direct emotional stake on either side of that.

What is interesting to me about Williams' deep attraction to a kind of ideal Islam (as a prototype for true surrender to God) is how much people like Tolkein (to a lesser degree) and Lewis (quite highly) respected Williams including his rather interesting take on church history Descent of the Dove.

It's been years since I read that, or any of his novels, plays or poetry. But I can recreate easily the several distinctive aspects of his theological / devotional stance. And through that I can see Islam in a wider context than its current use as an ideology through which tribal cultures fight back against encroaching modernism using murderous means, and in so doing serve the purposes of fat corrupt Saudi royals and other such parties.

It's a mistake to see Islam and those cultures as identical. Not only is that counterfactual, but perhaps even more importantly to do so blinds us to the reasons why others might respond very differently to Islam as a potential way of life.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-05 21:28|| 2006-10-05 21:28|| Front Page Top

#35 lotp - I have never had much interest in religion, so I haven't read the books you refer to. I was compelled to read the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, then chose to read the qu'uran and some books which tried to explain buddhism - poorly, lol. The Screwtape Letters (Do I have that right?) by Lewis was the only thing I've read that brushes up against your point - sorry - and that was over 30 years ago.

If there was a peaceful path to coexistence with Islam, then I'd be willing to watch it work and change my tune. I recognize that my experience was with the worst flavor, the Wahhabis. Liberalhawk used that observation on me to good effect way back, lol.

When I see the "moderates" fight back as we have, when I see them openly defend our liberal freedoms in numbers, I'm dismissing the coffee-table book authors, then I'll eat my finely-minced words (lol) and take them at face value. In fact, taking them at face value is precisely what I do now - and there's nothing yet apparent to change my view.

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 21:41|| 2006-10-05 21:41|| Front Page Top

#36 This reminds me of an argument my father and my husband got into once, back when I and the world were young. I've no memory what it was about, as the subject was rather technical. But the thing is, my father was a research biochemist, Mr. Wife a chemical engineer-in-training. The topic they argued (ever so politely, as the not-yet-Mr. Wife didn't want to fatally annoy his future father-in-law, nor my father his soon-to-be son-in-law), from my perspective they were coming to the same conclusion; yet in their closely related fields the same words had different enough meanings that they talked at cross purposes, increasingly annoyed that the other stubbornly refused to see the right of it.

As far as I can tell the essence of Old Spook's argument is the message that the Pope is trying to send, as much to the people of Western Europe as the Muslims. .com is arguing that what the Muslims are receiving something entirely different, and that is the critical fact the Pope needs to actively manage. Y'all are talking at cross purposes, gentlemen.

I can only hope that part of the Pope's purpose was to cause the Muslims to reveal themselves in a way that our Western idiots cannot pretend they don't see. As leader of the Catholic Church, of course he has to use their traditional forms, but in a way that pushes all the Muslim buttons as well as causing the Muslims to push the buttons of the Europeans.

Or, quite possibly, I've read everybody wrong and I'm full of shit. That possibility has crossed my mind.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 21:42|| 2006-10-05 21:42|| Front Page Top

#37 You posted while I was still composing, .com. The fault of slower thinking on my part.

It is The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. One of my favourites, which I read in parallel with Twain's Letters from the Earth.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 21:45|| 2006-10-05 21:45|| Front Page Top

#38 ROFL, tw. You are a treasure. You're certainly not full of shit. Sugar and spice, methinks. :-)

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 21:45|| 2006-10-05 21:45|| Front Page Top

#39 "I can only hope that part of the Pope's purpose was to cause the Muslims to reveal themselves in a way that our Western idiots cannot pretend they don't see."

That was the impression I got, as well. And not just part of his purpose.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-10-05 21:46|| 2006-10-05 21:46|| Front Page Top

#40 Damn! I read those at the same time, too! No kidding. Eve's Autobiography was what made me a complete Twain nut, lol.

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 21:47|| 2006-10-05 21:47|| Front Page Top

#41 Then as a really big favour to me, make up with Old Spook, ok? We're all on the same side on the really important thing: the War on Jihadist Islam. (I'm just not going to say "on Islam" until forced to it, even though it looks highly likely that's where it will end up.) You both are really important voices here, I adore you both, and in my stupid hypersensitivity about such things I'm heartbroken right now.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 21:59|| 2006-10-05 21:59|| Front Page Top

#42 Becalm thyself, tw, lol. Whatever will happen, will most certainly happen. I cannot (and should not) ignore what has transpired here. I'm not full of shit, okay - some of the time I am, lol, but not here. I mean every word I've said and I see no reason to retract any of it. OS will do whatever he wants. I'm disappointed in how this transpired, but that's life.

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 22:07|| 2006-10-05 22:07|| Front Page Top

#43 You both went on a search, and similar paths ended up in different places. Because you both reasoned your way there, you feel strongly about where you ended up. You are both very intelligent, widely read, good at building your argument, tough-minded, and stubborn as mules (not at all the same thing), and capable of stating your points much more strongly than you did in this thread. You are both wonderful men who are doing your best to do right in your bit of the universe.

And you both said hard things tonight. But I've no doubt you've both said harder things, and even sometimes got past it. It would have been easier, I suppose, if you'd just hit one another, and had to go together to the emergency room to each get your jaws wired back together.

For what it's worth, which isn't much, except in abstract.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 22:22|| 2006-10-05 22:22|| Front Page Top

#44 .com - I stand by my Pope on this one. He's said more than any other leader, religious or otherwise, and I see it as opening gambit

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-10-05 22:23|| 2006-10-05 22:23|| Front Page Top

#45 "I can only hope that part of the Pope's purpose was to cause the Muslims to reveal themselves in a way that our Western idiots cannot pretend they don't see."

Which, I believe, was lotp's entire point in post # 4.

All of you, please consider one single glaring statistic from the "Obssesion" video. If some 10-20% of the entire world's Muslim population is radicalized, this represents a headcount equaling the entire population of the United States.

We are confronted with a massive foe that can easily, through force, coercion and doctrinal suasion, overcome or simply carry along in its violent and abusive wake, the remaining Muslim world. Very little time remains wherein we have the luxury of "dialogue" or other nuanced forms of negotiation. In reality, such tools are of absolutely no worth in confronting an enemy hell-bent on killing or subjugating the rest of us, including any of their own uncooperative religious brethern.

Israel's dealings with the Palestinians should have proved for once and all that there is no negotiating with these bloodthirsty fanatics. Absent any voluable or tangible support from Islam's silent majority, we cannot but begin a forcible dismantling of their religion.

Pope Benedict's message is a good one and, as such, is desperately needed in terms of awakening Europe. Yet, remember, we are talking about a continent that has, part and parcel, already surrendered itself almost entirely to Islam.

While I no longer care if Muslim-majority nations perish in nuclear fire, I still hold out hope that some form of deterrence or disincentive can be brought to bear in order to avoid this Islamic holocaust. That this tragedy is almost mandatory, at this point, is a foregone conclusion on my own part. I merely await the efforts of those who have been appointed to resolve this impending crisis.

As to myself, I shall have to gather firearms and ammunition in anticipation of what I see as inevitable. For someone who has fired many guns but never owned more than a (highly accurate and fast muzzle velocity) air pistol, this is a huge change.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-05 22:24|| 2006-10-05 22:24|| Front Page Top

#46 btw - I'm an off/on practicing Catholic unlike OS, who I admire. I see the words as an incremental step back on the offense, not defense. While expressing "respect" he's basically told them to put up or shut up on the "Religion of Peace" BS. So far, they've lived down to all expectations.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-10-05 22:27|| 2006-10-05 22:27|| Front Page Top

#47 Damn it, I'll probably miss posting a recipe in my thread over this, but what do I care?

You both are really important voices here, I adore you both, and in my stupid hypersensitivity about such things I'm heartbroken right now.

trailing wife, you are being neither stupid or hyper. While I am disconcerted at the conflict in this thread, it's a much needed clearing of the air about what sort of threat and what measures will be and ARE needed to counteract radical Islam and, quite possibly, Islam in general.

.com - I stand by my Pope on this one. He's said more than any other leader, religious or otherwise, and I see it as opening gambit

And here I will certainly agree with you, Frank. As if a voice in the wilderness, Benedict's words have been raised unmistakably, however moderately so, against militant Islam.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-05 22:33|| 2006-10-05 22:33|| Front Page Top

#48 Re: #44 - Cool.

Posted by .com 2006-10-05 22:38|| 2006-10-05 22:38|| Front Page Top

#49 Oh, I am being stupid, Zenster. Because at this point I don't really care what either of them said. .com's search led him to a highly moral and ethical atheism, Old Spook's to a highly moral and ethical Catholicism. Because .com has seen the worst side of several religions, he has a legitimate distrust of it. On the other side, OldSpook sees in Pope Benedick the best of the Catholic tradition, and he is rightfully protective of that.

And I see two idealists (even if .com likes to be cynical about it) who are doing their best to fight to keep the world from literally going to hell. How can I not stupidly weep?

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2006-10-05 22:43|| 2006-10-05 22:43|| Front Page Top

#50 "As to myself, I shall have to gather firearms and ammunition in anticipation of what I see as inevitable."

Well, if you're looking for advice on guns, RB might be a decent place to start; there are plenty of gun owners here. Start a gun thread one of these days, see what you get.

"For someone who has fired many guns but never owned more than a (highly accurate and fast muzzle velocity) air pistol, this is a huge change."

Would an AK-47 be enough of a change? That's what I got my youngest son for Christmas...

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-10-05 22:44|| 2006-10-05 22:44|| Front Page Top

#51 :-) we can agree to not disagree. Any step, however small is a step fwd. We may disagree on the pace (and I'm sure we will), but this is the way it has to be - the leaders of our Christian, Jewish, Hindu, et al, religions need to stand up and say "this sh*t won't fly !" (but, of course, I paraphrase).

Isolate, embarrass/drive a wedge, and then annihilate those that clearly won't change. It won't be any different than the End Of Worlds projections made here by several, but we'll have Militant Islam, a backasswards culture, isolated, and ready for eradication on a global scale.....

/serious, now playing:

I want my own Crusader Coat of Arms, dammit

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-10-05 22:46|| 2006-10-05 22:46|| Front Page Top

#52 A bridge agule rampant on a field azure, crossed with a bigger hammer on the bastard side, perhaps? The motto "Oderint dum metuant" is perhaps most appropriate.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 22:53|| 2006-10-05 22:53|| Front Page Top

#53 Alternate motto, "Mine's bigger." Mottos tend toward the provocative.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 22:58|| 2006-10-05 22:58|| Front Page Top

#54 "Mine's Bigger" might last til the first field comparison with their finest. I prefer something I can defend :-)

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-10-05 23:00|| 2006-10-05 23:00|| Front Page Top

#55 A bit late in the day, but to put Pope Benedict's references of "respect" for Muslims, one should look to prior declarations on the subject made by his predecessors.

The authoritative document on Catholic - Non-Christian religions is NOSTRA AETATE , published during the pontificate of Pope Paul VI (1965)

Excerpt:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

Benedict, I believe, is under no illusion about the Muslim threat, but his principal focus is on preserving the remnants of Christian faith in a secularist Europe. The battle lines were made evident when the the d' Estaing-led drafters of the EU Constitution ignored Pope John Paul II's plea to include preamble that included a reference to Europe's Christian heritage.

The trip to Turkey, I also believe, will be devoted to encouraging closer ties to the Easter Churches. An additional day was added to the itinerary for a papal visit to the Hagia Sophia "museum".

Posted by mrp 2006-10-05 23:16|| 2006-10-05 23:16|| Front Page Top

#56 Alternate motto, "Mine's bigger." Mottos tend toward the provocative.

HEY! No stealing!

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-05 23:34|| 2006-10-05 23:34|| Front Page Top

#57 You and Frank are in different fields of endeavor, Zenster, hence different tools of measurement. Quite possibly you're both right.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-05 23:38|| 2006-10-05 23:38|| Front Page Top

#58 File this one Fred. It is a doozy! Excellent posts all around. Real RBU stuff. And fine work as peacemaker TW.

Posted by Remoteman 2006-10-05 23:43|| 2006-10-05 23:43|| Front Page Top

#59 Agreed, Remoteman.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-10-05 23:58|| 2006-10-05 23:58|| Front Page Top

02:29 PASSIONATE AMERICA
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