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2005-11-07 Europe
It's Getting Worse .....
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Posted by lotp 2005-11-07 07:44|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 "It is strictly forbidden for any Muslim ... to take part in any action that strikes blindly at private or public property or that could threaten the lives of others," the UOIF said.
Posted by Shipman 2005-11-07 07:52||   2005-11-07 07:52|| Front Page Top

#2 How long before this is partially blamed upon the United States, "anglos" or Bush? The nature of France's dilemma is pretty clear isn't it. I note the article mentions "churches" (plural!) but makes no mention of mosques. The slipspeak offered by the UOIF is typical and underscores the problem. There's a much bigger danger to French culture than Google, McDonald's, the evil Anglo free market system or Hollywood. The question is whether or not the French government will finally articulate it publically and respond affirmatively.
Posted by MunkarKat 2005-11-07 08:31||   2005-11-07 08:31|| Front Page Top

#3 It is apparent that after 11 days of insurrection that the French govt is paralyzed and cannot deal with the situation. So it is up to the citizens to put an end to this. It appears that the French are coming down to two choices to restore order:
*Anarchy
*Vigilantes

None are real attractive alternatives. It is self evident that the government must be changed, but that will take time, which they do not have.
Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul  2005-11-07 08:33||   2005-11-07 08:33|| Front Page Top

#4 How long before this is partially blamed upon the United States, "anglos" or Bush?

I've already seen posts on some blogs trying to lay the blame on "American rap culture." Give it a couple of days before the MSM picks it up.
Posted by 11A5S 2005-11-07 08:38||   2005-11-07 08:38|| Front Page Top

#5 anymous-Keep your head down.
Posted by 49 pan 2005-11-07 08:47||   2005-11-07 08:47|| Front Page Top

#6 I've already seen posts on some blogs trying to lay the blame on "American rap culture


Not enough innate intelligence or self motivation in the entire "rap" community for this to be valid, but I would love to see them targeted.
Posted by Besoeker 2005-11-07 09:00||   2005-11-07 09:00|| Front Page Top

#7 Gosh, the number of cars burned every night is reported breathlessly, like a baseball score, or a body count.
Posted by gromky">gromky  2005-11-07 09:10|| http://communistposters.com/]">[http://communistposters.com/]  2005-11-07 09:10|| Front Page Top

#8 JFM, I hope you are ok, and any other French readers of Rantburg.

So, is the French government finally going to get serious and clamp down on this, or are they waiting for the rioters to get bored/run out of crap to burn?

Aren't there any riot cops or heavily armed authorities that they can send in there to put it down, or have they decided not to do a damn thing about it?
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-11-07 09:14|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-11-07 09:14|| Front Page Top

#9 The english service of Radio France International has already run a commentary blaming this on the USA on their Saturday broadcast.
Posted by Evil Elvis 2005-11-07 09:17||   2005-11-07 09:17|| Front Page Top

#10 A more relaxed view from an "Energy" Banker in Paris (liberal, and predicting $100 oil soon):

One of my aunts lives in one of the cités in the suburbs where the "new Intifada" is taking place - the new "Baghdad on the Seine". Her building suffered a fire yesterday night, started by the usual suspects in the neighborhood (they blew up two motorbikes in a local on the ground floor), ignored for almost one hour by the police and firemen. The solidarity of the inhabitants helped to evacuate everybody, and provide temporary shelter while the fire raged. Most people went back home the same evening as the fire was doused eventually.

A few cars were also burnt in the neighborhood, but hardly more than usual. It's one of those things that happen and that you don't really worry about if you live there. This week, it goes on TV if you do it, so of course more are tempted to do so (last night saw 1300 cars burn, up from 900 the previous night), including in provincial cities. There is no coordination of anything, it's just mostly copycats by bored kids who are suddenly getting a lot of attention.

The police toughness is just plain posturing by Sarkozy, as the police know very well who does what in the neighborood and didn't and do not intervene. One reason is actually that the local gangs don't attack so much the locals (or the police) as they fight other gangs from nearby cities for sometimes trange turf or other arcane reasons. Also, there isn't that much violence, but isolated incidents and the spectacular, but mostly harmless, car fires. Firemen say explicitly that they let them burn out rather than intervene, as their interventions only excite the gangs more and have little use (unless the fire presents any danger of spreading, which is rarely the case).

Now one thing to note is that these neighboroods are not ghettos. My aunt lived there most of her life, she was a teacher in a nearby pre-school and has a mostly normal middle class life. There are lots of minorities, lots of kids with dysfunctional families, an obvious lack of jobs, and decrepit buildings, but it's not a rundown place, it's not cut off from the rest of the country, and there is a lot of solidarity between the inhabitants.

This is not to deny that the situation is tense, and that the events of recent nights don't signal some real problems in these neighboroods, but it's not like it's war, ot the "end of France" or a crippling crisis for the country.

[...]

A final word: I am not trying to downplay the significance of these events, but I do think they need to be put in perspective, and the shrillness of the English language press made me want to give another view. Burning cars are not a good thing, but htey are not the end of the world either, and no sign of any Intifada (or the USA and the UK would be in one as well). The violence unleashed in the past two days will not be tolerated much longer, neither by the inhabitants of the cités nor by the State, and a combination of both actions will prevail.


RTWT:
Paris 'riots': My aunt's building burned yesterday night

I'll keep an eye out to see if he changes his position LOL.

Posted by KBK 2005-11-07 09:34||   2005-11-07 09:34|| Front Page Top

#11 The French government's stance reminds me very little of Shemp from The Three Stooges.

In the middle of Moe and Larry whaling the snot out of him, he'd buck up and shout back, "Had enough?"
Posted by Zenster 2005-11-07 09:35||   2005-11-07 09:35|| Front Page Top

#12 Yes, I agree with the "relaxed" account KBK gave (of course, it's *muuuch* easier for sheltered me to say this than for the people who were hurt or lost property, or even had relative killed, like Jean Jacques Le Chenadec, see my comment on the other thread, or possibly a young policeman off duty who was found with his skull bashed in)...

My take is it is only a "surge" on what is otherwise an ongoing, low intensity intifada againt the State authority, this will die out soon enough by itself (from what I've understood, the police has orders "not to be provocative", so all of you who expected a tough stance...), that's what the gvt is hoping for.
What's unsual is duration and international media coverage, not the attacks by themselves (for example molotov cocktails were thrown into a Saint-Etienne buswith passengers, for no apparent reason... but according to the locals, this has already happened twice in recent years, you see my point).

The real danger will come AFTER theses riots, which are so far manageable (though police is overstretched, and after 2 weeks of deployment it will become very difficult), with the gvt appeasing and throwning more money at the problem(25 billions euros are already planned), all this while it has already caved in (for example using islamic mediators, or receiving the head of the Paris Grand mosque and telling "islam had all its plce in France, and was to be treated as an equal"). The msm don't help too.

The 5th Republic is rotting, Shiraq and co are inept, corrupt and undemocratic... and I have no hope in the 2007 presidential elections, in which the socialists or the "conservatives" (sic) will win : business as usual, straight into the wall, demographically, culturally, economically,...
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-11-07 09:59||   2005-11-07 09:59|| Front Page Top

#13 Ohio National Guard shoots four and not another campus building burned. The longer they delay the greater the body count will have to be before sense returns to the street.
Posted by Whash Unick6318 2005-11-07 10:14||   2005-11-07 10:14|| Front Page Top

#14 This post should be headlined "It's Getting Better".

Now, where did I put that Allahtov Cocktail?
Posted by imam oron 2005-11-07 10:23||   2005-11-07 10:23|| Front Page Top

#15 So, they riot all night and sleep all day.
I say carpet bomb the 'estates' all day. That should even the score a bit.
Posted by wxjames 2005-11-07 10:35||   2005-11-07 10:35|| Front Page Top

#16 KBK's banker friend and anon5089 are right that this is just an increase in the violence the Frence tolerate.

Now, we've done somewhat the same thing with our inner city ghettos insofar as we've ignored the minority-on-minority violence in many neighborhoods - especially after black and other leaders called police racist for patrolling heavily.

What we have NOT tolerated, however, are direct attacks on police and fire personnel. That becomes an attack on the stability and order of the society as a whole. Which is why the Feds have come down very heavily on MS-13 and will continue to do so.

It is the perceived impotence of the French authorities - indeed, their perceived eagerness to placate such violence - that runs the risk of turning what is currently small-time gang stuff around the country into 'urban insurgency'.

Yes, an amorphous muslim identity - excacerbated by direct racism which people with dark skins cannot escape in France if they're poor - plays a role in the attitudes of these boys and young men. And yes, the situation is ripe for exploitation by the Islamacists.

But the trigger for the violence was Sarkozy's move against the drugs trade, arms trafficking and shakedowns in the banlieus. He judged - rightly, as we can see by the reaction - that the French state had lost control of those areas to the gangs and that that was a very dangerous situation to allow to continue.

When gang control of lucrative trades and of territory is challenged, they respond with insurgency. It didn't necessarily work that way in the past, but today's gangs are loosely networked through cell phones, internet, easy travel across national borders. And they get to play the media like a violin for publicity, too.

Check out COL Manwaring's analysis of how street gang activity can -- and has -- morphed into urban insurgency. And then go back and read some of the things Rand and others are saying about gangs and netwar.
And keep in mind that the insurgency in Iraq is built in large part on the violent gangs that Saddam never dismantled, just used.
Posted by lotp 2005-11-07 10:45||   2005-11-07 10:45|| Front Page Top

#17 Two points :

- ok with the french racism... but do tell, why are the asian minority from SE Asia, and notably Viet Nam or Cambodgia well integrated and in some way, quite on their way to assimilation (from what I know, this is less true of the growing chinese minority, but they're not troublermakers either)?
Why are the inhabitants of the dom-tom (oversea french territories), often black or dark skinned, not discriminated against (in fact, they're heavily involved with administrations, hospitals, police,...)?
Could it be that that racism is also a reaction to a perceived threat?

And I might add that there is an another racism which is all too taboo : the antifrench and antiwhite racism from the african minorities. And this one doesn't manifest itself in "bad looks", job discrimination,.. it manifest in assaults, murders, beating, explicitly racist gangrapes in which the vicitms are raped and being p*ssed on all the while being told they're slut because they're white.

- Re the gang insurgency : from what I've read in a forum, so this is not straight from the horse's mouth, I've understood that there is currently a cannabis shortage in France which might help to explain why the projects have exploded; according to this post, there is a traditionnal summer shortage, when the professional dealer, who are 99% african (80% of the euro cannabis comes from Morocco) go back to the "old country"; this year, notably thanks to an EU agreement with Morocco to eradicate cannabis and to a more effective police action, the suplly has dried up.

This might be a factor; on the other hand, the cocaine trade is booming in France.

Btw, theses guys are not "poor"; they all have subsidies, benefits (a polygamous family, which is supposedly forbidden, but tolerated anyway, may earn up to 9000 euros a month), totally free healthcare,... there is a "black" economy in theses areas which is litterally evaluated at billiosn of euros, it is estimated that over the years about 40 billions of euros have been injected into theses area to built gymnasium, social centers,... all this to buy social peace.

All the perps have designer clothes, gold chains, designer shoes, bmw cars, high tech cell phones,... stop with the "disaffranchised" idea, it's insulting for losers like me who have sh*tty day jobs.
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-11-07 11:19||   2005-11-07 11:19|| Front Page Top

#18 Thank you Desert Blondie. For now in my neighbourhood there have been zero incidents despite the town having a lot of muslims.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2005-11-07 11:51||   2005-11-07 11:51|| Front Page Top

#19 The problem is not Sarkozy being more or less effective but the fact he is being torpedoed by both thge left, the duo Chirac-Villepin and the (heavily infiltrated by far-left French MSM). To give two examples: "Les Guignols" a political Muppet show who has a lot of influence (1) is presenting him dressed like a WWII german general (2). More importantly the troubles are being presnted as the consequence of Sarkozy calling the rioters "scum". In fact he was discussing with a woman in teh affected zone. She called the rioters scum and Sarkozy limited to use the same terms (one of them scum) in his answer. But the French MSM edited the sequence so to make him appear insulting and provocative.

So now Sarkozy's dilemma is that whatever he does has a fair chance of being torpedoed/sabotaged by Chirac/Villepin and misrepresented by the MSM in a such way that it will spread the fire even more.

(1) they had a GREAT part in Chirac defeating right-wing rival Balladur in 1995

(2) BTW those bastards also present Bin Laden as a funny guy and Bush as a destructive lunatic.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2005-11-07 12:10||   2005-11-07 12:10|| Front Page Top

#20 It's really too bad France abolished capital punishment. They could really teach these wannabes a thing or two about beheadings.
Posted by imoyaro 2005-11-07 12:22||   2005-11-07 12:22|| Front Page Top

#21 A5089 and JFM. Merci beaucoup. It is good to get information from someone you know and trust as opposed to the MSM. Keep safe.
Posted by Spons Omineting7374 2005-11-07 12:24||   2005-11-07 12:24|| Front Page Top

#22 I will scream if I read one more time that 1,400 cars burned in one night is just normal crime. 1,400 cars at $20,000 per car is $28-million in damages, not including the headaches and clean-up. Aside from that, I have driven through some of the worst parts of Philadelphia and I have never seen a burned-out car there. Not that it doesn't happen, but NOT 1,400 in a night. France is in denial and is going to suffer longer and worse for it.
Posted by Darrell 2005-11-07 12:24||   2005-11-07 12:24|| Front Page Top

#23 JFM:

You and the family stay safe, OK? If things get bad and you need to, euphemistically speaking, take a long extended tour of North America to see the fall colors, let us know when you'll be in town.
Posted by Mike 2005-11-07 12:36||   2005-11-07 12:36|| Front Page Top

#24 If nothing else folks do value their cars, bought, "borrowed" or stolen, in North Philly Darrell.
Posted by MunkarKat 2005-11-07 13:09||   2005-11-07 13:09|| Front Page Top

#25 "Burning cars are not a good thing . . . "

Yeah, especially when it's your car!


" . . . These guys are not "poor"; they all have subsidies, benefits (a polygamous family, which is supposedly forbidden, but tolerated anyway, may earn up to 9000 euros a month), totally free healthcare... there is a "black" economy in these areas which is litterally evaluated at billios of euros, it is estimated that over the years about 40 billions of euros have been injected into theses area to built gymnasium, social centers... all this to buy social peace . . . "

Now that just makes a lot more sense, don't it? They're pissed cuz' their drug trade dried up. I was suspicious of their "poverty" when I heard they were coordinating attacks/vandalism on cell phones.
Posted by ex-lib 2005-11-07 13:25||   2005-11-07 13:25|| Front Page Top

#26 "Les Guignols" a political Muppet show who has a lot of influence

Might I suggest this is a sign of how far things in France have gone? About the only lasting political effect the REAL Muppets had on the US was an odd view of what a Swedish accent sounds like.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-11-07 14:24|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-11-07 14:24|| Front Page Top

#27 Sorry if this was brought up in another thread and I missed it, but check out the Rantburg Futures on Muslim Unrest in France...

http://www.aach.net/rantburg/pgFutureItem.asp?ID=40

If link is wonky it's because I'm using the www.aach.net portal since my employer blocks www.rantburg.com. Firewall calls it a "chat site." Bastards!
Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats  2005-11-07 14:40||   2005-11-07 14:40|| Front Page Top

#28 www.wotresearch.com also leads you here. I started shutting down the aach.net mirror when I turned it on.
Posted by Fred 2005-11-07 15:01||   2005-11-07 15:01|| Front Page Top

#29 Thanks for keeping a mirror up, Fred! I'll use http://www.wotresearch.com/ while at work going forward. :)
Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats  2005-11-07 15:18||   2005-11-07 15:18|| Front Page Top

#30 http://architectureandmorality.blogspot.com/2005/11/shattered-glass-dealing-with-north.html
Posted by Bush Mckenzie 2005-11-07 16:44||   2005-11-07 16:44|| Front Page Top

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