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2006-11-13 China-Japan-Koreas

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Posted by Anonymoose 2006-11-13 07:29|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 In contrast, Chinese military visitors have been invited to military exercises and sensitive U.S. facilities.
Additionally, military intelligence officials said Adm. Fallon has restricted U.S. intelligence-gathering activities against China, fearing that disclosure of the activities would upset relations with Beijing.
Adm. Fallon should fall on his steak knife. Fool !
What chance have we got if we're led by fools ?

Posted by wxjames 2006-11-13 08:00|| 2006-11-13 08:00|| Front Page Top

#2 I wonder if China has the fundamental ability for serious military aggression anymore. How many of those one-child families are really going to support actions that risk elimination of their personal gene pool if there's no 'self-protection' angle to it? No matter how much patriotic rhetoric the pols spout, how many dead families lines would be an acceptable price for, say, forced re-unification with Taiwan? (And their leadership is 'political', though not selected in the same way as the west.)
I don't feel China is our enemy - more a rival. I don't 'fear' China because I think they are mainly rational, according to the same general set of logical rules that apply to us. Same with Russia, pretty much. We may lose out to them somehow, but the biggest concern is some kind of accidental conflict brought on by failed communication (misinterpreted message or misjudged 'brink').
Islam is different. It threatens all logical peoples and countries (whether they recognize it yet or not.) China may stalk our fleet (and be getting pretty good at it), just as we stalk theirs, but I don't see either of us initiating an attack. Too much to lose and too little to gain. The concern is they might sell the technology to Iran and train the Iranians to use it - and Iran WOULD be willing to initiate an attack on us. Logical to China - weaken US in area that threatens China (military) at little military risk or economic cost.
Lesson: learn what China is doing, track its dealings with Iran, and prepare defenses against Iranian application (remembering Iran has different (il)logic.)

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2006-11-13 08:45|| 2006-11-13 08:45|| Front Page Top

#3 ...Something is really wrong with this story. Besides the fact that a diesel powered boat supposedly got that close to the Kitty Hawk, NO sub skipper, regardless of his skill, abilities, or ball size, would have been suicidal enough to surface literally inside the battle group. Something just does not add up.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-11-13 09:07|| 2006-11-13 09:07|| Front Page Top

#4 Don't the Chinese and the Russians always stalk us? Is that news?

Mike's point is interesting. Maybe the real story is that the sub surfaced.

Posted by anon 2006-11-13 09:20|| 2006-11-13 09:20|| Front Page Top

#5 Sounds like the ChiComs have a caterpillar drive.

Posted by Excalibur 2006-11-13 09:35|| 2006-11-13 09:35|| Front Page Top

#6 Methinks this is a intramural turf-war being fought via the pages of the Washington Times.

Posted by Pappy 2006-11-13 10:22|| 2006-11-13 10:22|| Front Page Top

#7 I agree that this stinks to high heaven. Several possible scenarios:

1) Chinese attempt to embarass this Admiral.
2) Submarine was forced to surface by US forces.
3) Fleet intentionally allowed submarine within their perimeter to conceal detection abilities.
4) Submarine was forced to surface by mechanical fault.
5) Submarine crew attempting to defect.
6) Third party involvement.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-11-13 10:27|| 2006-11-13 10:27|| Front Page Top

#8 I have to agree with "anon" - what is so unusul about a Chinese submarine shadowing a large naval task force operating in the Western Pacific Ocean? It would be amazing if their submarines DIDN'T approach our naval exercises in their zone of interest. In international waters, so long as no threat of collision is instigated, they have as much right as we do to be under way.

The "undetected" angle is presumably an unsubstantiated assumption on the part of some journlist without security access to the facts. I doubt that this "fact" would be confirmed or denied by the US Navy.

Practically-speaking, a submarine could totally shut down, and drift ahead of the path of a US task force underway, and there is not much that the moving task force could do to detect it, until it was literally on top of it. Big deal.

LR

Posted by Lone Ranger 2006-11-13 10:30|| 2006-11-13 10:30|| Front Page Top

#9 looks like answer #1 with the help of our MSM - who never misses an opportunity to turn US vistory into defeat

Posted by anon 2006-11-13 10:36|| 2006-11-13 10:36|| Front Page Top

#10 Interesting comments from current and former submariners over at www.michellemalkin.com:

[T]he Song-class diesel boat was spotted on the surface about five miles from the Kitty Hawk. So, either the Chinese were trying desperately to let us know that they could get that close to us, or this is another of a series of attempts by the Chinese to send their submarines farther afield where they just can't seem to stay undetected and/or submerged. Since they have nothing to gain by taunting us like that, I vote for the second option.
For some background: the Chinese were probably interested in checking out preparations for the Annualex 18G exercises taking place south of Kyushu. The media will probably try to make a big deal out of the presence of Asheville and Seawolf in the exercise, and claim that even our vaunted nuclear attack subs couldn't stop the Chinese sub from approaching the carrier. Even if that is true, it's more likely that the subs would have been some distance off, tasked with preparing for the exercise. To re-iterate: any decent diesel boat could approach this close to a carrier during peacetime. This doesn't mean they could do it during periods of heightened tensions. The Chinese Song-class sub is a tiny little 2,250 ton boat that is the first indigenously-designed Chinese boat; it's probably about two generations behind Western or Russian diesel boats.

Any other submariners care to weigh in?

***

Reader Steve e-mails:

I served on a fast attack sub & I concur with the bubblehead who commented. It's no big deal. However, I am willing to bet that one of our nuclear subs who detected the diesel sub, alerted the carrier (and the anti-sub helicopters) and was actually tracking the diesel.
Steve Brock
USS Lapon SSN661

Reader Rob S.:

As a former submariner (USS Louisville SSN724), I agree with Bubblehead's analysis. Although China seems to be fielding more capable subs as of late, they are still lagging by a generation or two compared to technological capabilities of our current (although dwindling) sub fleet. I don't necessarily agree that the Chinese sub's broaching (inadvertent surfacing)(italics mine - MK)
was in this case a function of their lag in technologically; more often it is a lack in shipboard operational proficiency or a tactical understanding of the ocean environment. He is right on about the likelihood of the two "in-theater" boats - the Seawolf and the Asheville - being far off in preps for the exercise, as this is the standard scenario for military exercises involving submarines.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-11-13 10:41|| 2006-11-13 10:41|| Front Page Top

#11 How many of those one-child families are really going to support actions that risk elimination of their personal gene pool if there's no 'self-protection' angle to it? No matter how much patriotic rhetoric the pols spout, how many dead families lines would be an acceptable price for, say, forced re-unification with Taiwan?

Interesting point, Glenmore. China's unelected politburo probably doesn't give a shit about this, but you're right, their citizens more than likely would. Maybe we need to start spreading this meme throughout China to reorient public opinion on Taiwan and expansionism in general.

I still remain concerned about China because, like 1970-1980s Japan, they are waging economic war. We need to precipitate a major fiscal collapse in China, preferrably right after we spread this information.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2006-11-13 13:14|| 2006-11-13 13:14|| Front Page Top

#12 Having been stationed with the Helicopter squadron tasked with supporting the KH, i can tell you the SH-60's capabilities are head and shoulders above anything out there, so any 'undetected' comments should be taken w/ a grain of NaCl.

Posted by USN, ret. 2006-11-13 14:00|| 2006-11-13 14:00|| Front Page Top

#13 I agree with your #3 answer, Anonymoose! The Chicoms want to see how fast the detection grid 'lights', when they "coma callin"!

Posted by smn 2006-11-13 14:38|| 2006-11-13 14:38|| Front Page Top

#14 I'm a former ASWO - Spru-can mid 90's. Diesel boats cannot make way fast enough submerged to catch up to a BG - morelikely, the BG was transiting back/forth from an exercise box to/from a nightly steaming box along a route they've already established and traveled several times before. The diesel boat probably sat there waiting for them then surfaced.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2006-11-13 14:41|| 2006-11-13 14:41|| Front Page Top

#15 He probably surfaced because of a material problem.

Posted by Penguin 2006-11-13 23:01|| 2006-11-13 23:01|| Front Page Top

#16 'Tis prob (3), as USN or NATO NAVEXS had Soviet subs observe them visually many times, both surfaced + sub-surfaced. This prob also a subtle dual-msg to the West > iff anything happens over NORTH KOREA or NK-TAIWAN, etc, the USN should expect LR Chicom subs to shadow + fire nuclearized SLM's = TLCMS upon US CVBG/CBG's + ARG's in a heartbeat.For now, they'll mostly lie in wait - as time goes on, they do what the Soviet Navy did and start waiting off US ports, bases + cities. ASSASSINS MACE > resort to TAKE-AND-HOLD followed by IMMEDIATE NUCLEAR RE-INFORCEMENT + MILPOL/GEOPOL NUCLEAR ESCALATION. PRIORITY remains POLITICAL VICTORY over MILITARY.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2006-11-13 23:48|| 2006-11-13 23:48|| Front Page Top

23:55 Secret Master
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