Article

2005-11-09 Afghanistan-Pak-India

Anti-US demonstration flops - crowd enjoys airshow instead

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Posted by john 2005-11-09 00:00|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Leader: "Okay , we're gonna start the chant now! - Down with the Imperialists!"

Crowd of faithful commies: "Ooooooh! Aaaaaaah! Look at that sucker GO!"

Posted by PBMcL 2005-11-09 00:12|| 2005-11-09 00:12|| Front Page Top

#2 US technology trumps stuck-on-stupid communism once again.

Posted by Besoeker 2005-11-09 00:21|| 2005-11-09 00:21|| Front Page Top

#3 A niftier version of the MiG-21? What makes it any less nifty than, for example, a salad shooter?

Posted by gromky">gromky 2005-11-09 01:06|| http://communistposters.com/]">[http://communistposters.com/] 2005-11-09 01:06|| Front Page Top

#4 Many think of Indians as sophisticated, etc, but I'll wager that's not the case for the majority - and I partically base this on my experiences in Goa and Bombay as well as knowing many of them in Saudi. Anyway, reading this and the reaction of the people made me remember Arthur C Clarke's Rule #3:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Of course it might be that communists and socialists are, hands down, the most boring and clueless mindfucks on the planet, lol.

Posted by .com 2005-11-09 01:15|| 2005-11-09 01:15|| Front Page Top

#5 "partically" = particularly

IESpell. Don't do as I do, do as I say, lol.

Posted by .com 2005-11-09 01:16|| 2005-11-09 01:16|| Front Page Top

#6 A niftier version of the MiG-21? What makes it any less nifty than, for example, a salad shooter?
Posted by: gromky 2005-11-09 01:06

Gromky u bugger, I nearly PISSED myself..whahaa

Posted by Besoeker 2005-11-09 01:18|| 2005-11-09 01:18|| Front Page Top

#7 .com, please elaborate re: unsophisticated Indians?

Posted by Edward Yee 2005-11-09 03:14|| http://edwardyee.fanworks.net]">[http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2005-11-09 03:14|| Front Page Top

#8 Could be the CPI are just boring.

Posted by raptor 2005-11-09 05:31|| 2005-11-09 05:31|| Front Page Top

#9 A niftier version of the MiG-21? What makes it any less nifty than, for example, a salad shooter?

Upgraded avionics and weapons. The Bison isn't your grandfather's Mig-21. They racked up some "kills" against F-15s in the last exercise.

This report is from last year...

3rd Wing Explains 'Cope India' Exercise
Aviation Week & Space Technology

By David A. Fulghum, Elmendorf AFB

[April 10, 2004]

3rd Wing explains what happened when U.S. pilots faced innovative Indian Air Force tactics

The losing performance of F-15Cs in simulated air-to-air combat against the Indian air force this year is being perceived by some, both in the U.S. and overseas, as a weakening of American capabilities, and it is generating taunts from within the competitive U.S. fighter community.

The Cope India exercise also seemingly shocked some in Congress and the Pentagon who used the event to renew the call for modernizing the U.S. fighter force with stealthy F/A-22s and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters.

The reasons for the drubbing have gone largely unexplained and been misunderstood, according to those based here with the 3rd Wing who participated. Two major factors stand out: None of the six 3rd Wing F-15Cs was equipped with the newest long-range, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. These Raytheon APG-63(V)2 radars were designed to find small and stealthy targets. At India's request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and without the use of simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 Amraams that even the odds with beyond-visual-range kills.

These same U.S. participants say the Indian pilots showed innovation and flexibility in their tactics. They also admit that they came into the exercise underrating the training and tactics of the pilots they faced. Instead of typical Cold War-style, ground-controlled interceptions, the Indians varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations. Indian air force planners never reinforced failure or repeated tactics that the U.S. easily repelled. Moreover, the IAF's airborne commanders changed tactics as opportunities arose. Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.

Maj. Mark A. Snowden, the 3rd Wing's chief of air-to-air tactics and a participant in Cope India, spoke for the 13 U.S. pilots who attended the exercise. They flew six F-15Cs, each equipped with a fighter data link for rapid exchange of target information, AIM-9Xs and a Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System, he says. The aircraft had been to Singapore for another exercise and for the long, six-week jaunt it was decided not to bring along the additional maintenance package needed to support AESA-equipped F-15Cs.

Cope India was held Feb. 15-28 at Gwalior, about 150 mi. south of Delhi, where the Indian air force has its Tactics Air Combat Development Establishment, which operates late-model MiG-21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG-27 Floggers as strike aircraft. Aerospace officials who have heard the classified brief on the exercise say the MiG-21s were equipped with a "gray-market" Bison radar and avionics upgrade.

Mica-armed Dassault Mirages 2000s are also stationed there. Brought in for the exercise were Sukhoi Su-30s (but not the newest Su-30 MKIs) carrying simulated AA-11s and AA-12 Adders. There also were five MiG-29 Flankers involved in a peripheral role and an Antonov An-32 Cline as a simulated AWACS.

"The outcome of the exercise boils down to [the fact that] they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected," Snowden says. "India had developed its own air tactics somewhat in a vacuum. They had done some training with the French that we knew about, but we did not expect them to be a very well-trained air force. That was silly.

"They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn't working they would call an audible and change [tactics in flight]," he says. "They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. [Using all their assets,] they built a very good [radar] picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll [their aircraft] in and out."

Aerospace industry officials say there's some indication that the MiG-21s also may have been getting a data feed from other airborne radars that gave them improved situational awareness of the airborne picture.

Generally the combat scenario was to have four F-15s flying at any time against about 12 Indian aircraft. While the U.S. pilots normally train to four versus 12, that takes into account at least two of the U.S. aircraft having AESA radar and being able to make the first, beyond-visual-range shots. For the exercise, both sides restricted long-range shots.

"That's what the Indians wanted to do," Snowden says. "That [handicap] really benefits a numerically superior force because you can't whittle away some of their force at long range. They were simulating active missiles [including] AA-12s." This means the missile has its own radar transmitter and doesn't depend on the launch aircraft's radar after launch. With the older AA-10 Alamo, the launching fighter has to keep its target illuminated with radar so the U.S. pilots would know when they were being targeted. But with the AA-12, they didn't know if they had been targeted. The Mirage 2000s carried the active Mica missile. Aerospace industry officials said that some of the radars the U.S. pilots encountered, including that of the Mirage 2000s, exhibited different characteristics than those on standard versions of the aircraft.

The U.S. pilots used no active missiles, and the AIM-120 Amraam capability was limited to a 20-naut.-mi. range while keeping the target illuminated when attacking and 18 naut. mi. when defending, as were all the missiles in the exercise.

"When we saw that they were a more professional air force, we realized that within the constraints of the exercise we were going to have a very difficult time," Snowden says. "In general, it looked like they ran a broad spectrum of tactics and they were adaptive. They would analyze what we were doing and then try something else. They weren't afraid to bring the strikers in high or low. They would move them around so that we could never anticipate from day to day what we were going to see."

By comparison, the U.S. pilots don't think they offered the Indians any surprises. The initial tactic is to run a wall with all four F-15s up front. That plays well when the long-range missiles and AESA radar are in play.

"You know we're there and we're not hiding," Snowden says. "But we didn't have the beyond-visual-range shot or the numerical advantage. Eventually we were just worn down by the numbers. They were very smart about it. Their goal was to get to a target area, engage the target and then withdraw without prolonging the fight. If there were a couple of Eagles still alive away from the target area, they would keep them pinned in, get done with the target and then egress with all their forces.

"All their aircraft seemed to be capable of breaking out [targets] and shooting at the ranges the exercise allowed," he says. "We generally don't train to an active missile threat [like the Mirage's Mica or the AA-12 for the Russian-built aircraft], and that was one of the things that caused us some problems."

USAF planners here see Cope India as the first step in an annual series of exchange exercises.

Posted by john 2005-11-09 05:49|| 2005-11-09 05:49|| Front Page Top

#10 Reports say 15000 people came from surrounding villages to see the show. This is wonderful family entertainment for them. Many came early so as to get a good "seat".

BTW, that airbase (Kalaikunda) was built by the United States during WWII.

Posted by john 2005-11-09 05:59|| 2005-11-09 05:59|| Front Page Top

#11 Um 1) .com is right about a good chunk of indians, not many are sophisticated, but thats not to say some aren't arrogant either, and there is always something to be said about airshows in any kind of form (hell I'm indian and I agree with him for the most part).

2) John you do know cope india was for the most part a staged demo right? Look at the limitations involved. No AESA, limiting AMRAAM to 20 nm and what isn't mentioned also putting a significant % chance of missing as a factor, AA-12s given 100% kill ratio after lock on (no chance to miss assumed and at max range engagements possible), Indian forces given superior numbers PLUS AWACS and ground directed radar as well. You get stuck in a situation like that and you're basically just setting yourself up for a turkey shoot.

Posted by Valentine 2005-11-09 06:08|| 2005-11-09 06:08|| Front Page Top

#12 Ah, yes, now I remember, named for TSgt Ralph Kalaikunda Jr, of the San Antonio Kalaikundas. As a service brat I grew up going to air shows all over - incredible sunburns, warm sticky orange soda, and deaf for hours afterwards. Absolutely GREAT stuff! The best of times. :)

Posted by Omolurong Spomble5401 2005-11-09 06:08|| 2005-11-09 06:08|| Front Page Top

#13 link to photo
KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN)
Capt. Benjamin Freeborn and Indian Air Force Squadron Leader Tahir Shaikh discuss the order in which aircraft return to base following sorties during the Cope India exercise here. Captain Freeborn works in the air traffic control tower as the supervisor of flying for American Airmen. Squadron Leader Shaikh is the senior launch coordinator for Indian Airmen. Both deployed here for Cope India 06, which began Nov. 7. The exercise will enhance interoperability between the two air forces. (U.S. Air Force photo by Capt. John Redfield)

link to photo
F-16 Fighting Falcons, from the 13th Fighter Squadron at Misawa Air Base, Japan, and an E-3 Sentry airborne warning and control system aircraft from the 961st Airborne Air Control Squadron at Kadena Air Base, Japan, fill the flightline here. Both squadrons and Airmen from throughout Pacific Air Forces are here participating in the Cope India 06 exercise, which began Nov. 7. (U.S. Air Force photo by Capt. John Redfield)

link to photo
Capt. James Munroe explains E-3 Sentry airborne warning and control system aircraft capabilities to Indian Air Force radar officers during exercise Cope India '06 here. Captain Munroe is from the 961st Airborne Air Control Squadron, Kadena Air Base, Japan. The exercise began Nov. 7. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Martin Jackson)

link to photo

A 13th Fighter Squadron F-16 Fighting Falcon taxis past Indian Air Force MiG-27 fighters on the flightline here. American and Indian Airmen are participating in exercise Cope India 06, which began Nov. 7. The exercise will help enhance interoperability between the two air forces. The squadron deployed from Misawa Air Base, Japan. (U.S. Air Force photo by Capt. John Redfield)

Posted by john 2005-11-09 06:28|| 2005-11-09 06:28|| Front Page Top

#14 Ckeck out this photo. The commie drones are watching the SU-30 MK as it lands not the comrade leader...

Posted by john 2005-11-09 06:32|| 2005-11-09 06:32|| Front Page Top

#15 Link
An Indian fighter aircraft Mig-29 flies, background, as Communist party leaders speak during a protest against the joint India-US exercise at Kalaikunda, about 150 kilometers (94 miles) west of Calcutta, India, Monday, Nov

Link

A US F-16 fighter aircraft fly past a Communist Party of Indian (Marxist) flag, and an effigy of US President George Bush at Kalaikunda,

Posted by john 2005-11-09 06:36|| 2005-11-09 06:36|| Front Page Top

#16 Time to add Hyderabad to the Thunderbirds 2006 tour.

Posted by Ulirt Omeang6710 2005-11-09 07:38|| 2005-11-09 07:38|| Front Page Top

#17 In the late 1980s, when Mr. Wife was doing factory start-ups in that part of the world, 70% of Indians were "economically uninvolved." While I understand that number has dropped somewhat as India has liberalized her economy, out in the traditional villages where the people continue to eke out survival as did their ancestors, how can they learn of the excitements even of the towns, not even to think of the bright lights of the cities? Once, when Mr. Wife was on his way somewhere, their car broke down, and they went to the nearby village to await a replacement. Mr. Wife was the first white man they had apparently ever seen and, just like in the tales, everyone had to touch his hair and skin to see that it was real. They were very kind, though, and kept the group fed and entertained until a bus came along to take them to their destination.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-09 09:30|| 2005-11-09 09:30|| Front Page Top

#18 From the last exercise - joint formation - IAF Mirage 2000 followed by USAF F-15C followed by IAF SU-30MK

photo

Posted by john 2005-11-09 11:06|| 2005-11-09 11:06|| Front Page Top

#19 E3 AWACs roars over the commies
photo

Posted by john 2005-11-09 11:19|| 2005-11-09 11:19|| Front Page Top

#20 Cave men discover fire

Posted by Captain America 2005-11-09 13:35|| 2005-11-09 13:35|| Front Page Top

#21 Commie new exhortation: ah, commie like, commie like"

Posted by Captain America 2005-11-09 13:37|| 2005-11-09 13:37|| Front Page Top

00:19 Elmenter Snineque1852
23:35 Besoeker
23:32 Pappy
23:30 trailing wife
23:28 Pappy
23:28 Besoeker
23:28 Pappy
23:22 Phil
23:22 JosephMendiola
23:22 muck4doo
23:20 trailing wife
23:19 JosephMendiola
23:18 trailing wife
23:15 Besoeker
23:14 trailing wife
23:13 Elmenter Snineque1852
23:13 Besoeker
23:10 trailing wife
23:10 Bomb-a-rama
23:03 Besoeker
23:03 JosephMendiola
23:00 3dc
22:58 JosephMendiola
22:57 Pappy