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2016-12-07 -Signs, Portents, and the Weather-

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Posted by Mullah Richard 2016-12-07 08:48|| || Front Page|| [11129 views ] Top

#1 Cool man! What could go wrong? I saw a sign that said "No smoking". Didn't that apply to refrigerators?

Posted by Bobby 2016-12-07 11:51|| 2016-12-07 11:51|| Front Page Top

#2 The hippies were thinking how cool it was. Can't imagine what the inspectors were thinking. But right about now they're probably thinking how to cover their butts.

Posted by Abu Uluque 2016-12-07 13:22|| 2016-12-07 13:22|| Front Page Top

#3 Grabbing lunch, will take a look at the pictures.

Posted by swksvolFF 2016-12-07 13:39|| 2016-12-07 13:39|| Front Page Top

#4 Was it inspected? I was under the impression they were squatting in an unused warehouse.

Posted by trailing wife 2016-12-07 13:40|| 2016-12-07 13:40|| Front Page Top

#5 But right about now they're probably thinking how to cover their butts

Kind of like what the Chicago Building Inspection Dept. did after the balcony collapse a few years ago that killed 8 students.

They shredded their files for the property.

Claiming 'ignorance' or stupidity is better than liability, it seems. (Just ask HRC)

Posted by Mullah Richard 2016-12-07 14:55|| 2016-12-07 14:55|| Front Page Top

#6 These are the nice pictures. Yesterday's Daily Mail had all the filth and hazard pictures. Criminal.

Posted by Sgt. D.T. 2016-12-07 15:41|| 2016-12-07 15:41|| Front Page Top

#7 They went to evict the dirty, nasty, hippies but no one would un-lock the door so they left. It is San Fransicko afterall.

Posted by newc 2016-12-07 16:06|| 2016-12-07 16:06|| Front Page Top

#8 I will do my best, urban structure fire is a bit out of my usual response, though familiar with structure fire.

First level of protection is prevention. Obviously, this is already out the door.

Second level is local response - smoke detectors, automatic contact to dispatch, fire suppression systems, fire extinguishers, time of awareness that SHTF, contact to dispatch has their head on and can articulate the situation.

I do not know any inside professional chain of events, so this is in general:

Assuming (love that word) best case scenario - safety officer who embraces the job and is sober, ready to go. At least five minutes to get the call in, knows the address, can explain the situation even as all hell is breaking loose.

Attack/Rescue team has the latest gear including thermal cameras which can broadcast to incident command, well trained, in shape, in mind because this is a thinking game. Arrive in one of those rigs which allow two teams of two to suit up in-route, plenty of hose and water for an initial attack, fairly close distance and hydrants which function, plenty of help on the way, interior fire suppression system which can be connected by a pumper/hydrant. We are stretching here already, so let's be 10 minutes response - 15 minutes in.

As with these events, it is really a series of failures, beginning with the number one danger - attendants checked their awareness at the ticket booth. At the Oh Crap moment there is likely to be a stampede, where other people are the main threat. After that it will be what is loosely called smoke, really a cess pool of different chemicals and particulates dependent upon what is burning. The combination of those two variables will eventually cause a loss of consciousness. So not only is the respiratory and cardiac system in serious threat, patients may be getting trampled as well.

Then it starts getting hot. Depending upon the rate of burn and access to egress vs. volume and mindset of the participants, people may still be exiting at 15 minutes.

Fire may be a no mercy no prisoners SOB, but it is predictable. People, not so much. Initial Attack/Rescue would at this point know there are casualties and victims whose sand is slipping ever quicker. First would be something like a 2x2 team, buddy system two in two out QRF. Obviously we are past a fire extinguisher attack so hose is pulled. Enough people 'trying to help' standing on that hose threatens water pressure. Staying coordinated is tough, even with voice amplification in the mask, adrenaline is pumping, seconds count.

Likely the power is out, either from the fire or purposely off to protect against electrocution. Even with a pre-incident inspection everything is an unknown. Fixtures are knocked over, people are in the way. Even with a thermal camera and a real nice flashlight, pulling people out in 50 pounds of gear is difficult, hot, and chews up the air supply.

It will keep getting hotter until proper ventilation is achieved, to the point standing is not a livable option. A firefighter going down is not joke. This is not some hipster with more dreadlocks than ass, as I mentioned earlier this person is in shape and in 50 pounds of gear.

So were are crawling in the dark, maybe pushing through people. Spraying water is not always the right idea as it can upset the thermal layering and bring the hot air to ground level. At some point there is concern about a flashover.

At 20 - 25 minutes only those furthest from the fire and unable to escape are potential rescues.

It all gets situational at this point. Origin of fire, fire retardant systems, what equipment has arrived and in operation, command's mentality

EMTs will be treating smoke inhalation, injuries, shock, with all the normal concerns about handling bodily fluids.

People may panic and try to go in, may drive over hoses, or try to help but just get in the way - that will have to be controlled in order to perform operations safely. Remember, we are short on personnel within that short time period when people can still be rescued.

In short, a cluster-fk two story trash dump fire.

A real armchair AAR, and am open to discussion and correction. I would say the biggest danger to first responders here was people. Trading safety for style. Was this place inspected and what measures if any were made by either party? Was there a fire suppression system and if so, did it work, why or why not? What condition was the electrical system in consideration of power consumption? Were there open flames or other pyro techniques in use?

Problem is, a series of bad decisions may not seem like bad decisions until something bad happens. Crap happens, but there are quite a few flags here to not think that this could have been prevented.

Unfortunately I have heard enough conflicting reports to be uneasy to speculate much further, and am sure the responders did everything they could possibly do, especially with lives on the line.

Now, considering the interior, place was a death trap anyways. Hoarder level. Choke points everywhere.

Posted by swksvolFF 2016-12-07 16:35|| 2016-12-07 16:35|| Front Page Top

#9 Like #7 sez. At that point, if the City had unanswered concerns, they, Oakland, should have secured a search warrant allowing access to both the Building and Fire Departments.

There should be questions asked at the municipality, but doubt there will be any finding of fault.

Meantime, 36 souls paid the ultimate mortal price.

Posted by Vast Right Wing Conspiracy 2016-12-07 16:35|| 2016-12-07 16:35|| Front Page Top

#10 The UK Daily Mail did a thorough job reporting the incident, unlike the US MSM. Here is a LINK.

I have worked over 30 years with the Alaska State Fire Marshal plan review bureau. If you are prepared, they are very nice to work with. If there is a conflict or issue with the codes, we will work it out. The Ghost ship guys in Oakland have some serious issues to explain, and the Oakland govt has some serious explaining to do why they did not take action when they knew what was happening in that future incinerator building.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2016-12-07 17:02|| 2016-12-07 17:02|| Front Page Top

#11 Local news said the fire station was a block away, it took three minutes to arrive at the building and it was already too late.

Posted by Flairt Elmineck4802 2016-12-07 19:10|| 2016-12-07 19:10|| Front Page Top

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