Article

2003-06-09 Middle East

Zion’s Christian Soldiers: An Uncomfortable Alliance?

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Posted by ColoradoConservative 2003-06-09 03:17 pm|| || Front Page|| [13 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 thanks for the clarification on evangelicals versus fundamentalists - i think there are even finer distinctions than that to be made.

Re alfer however - while there are certainly Israelis who want a Jewishness without Judaism, that is not what i think he was getting it - not getting God out of Israel, but getting God OUT OF THE CONFLICT - ie make it less about whether the bible or the Koran is right, and more about how 2 peoples can live together in THIS world. Which is hard enough - but probably made harder by theologizing the conflict.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-06-09 16:22:17|| 2003-06-09 16:22:17|| Front Page Top

#2 I think a better rational for why so many Christians support the Jewish state has to do with the fact that the Holy Sites of all religions were difficult or impossible to get to for other religions when the area was controlled by Jordan. Now they are fairly easily accessible.

Posted by Yank 2003-06-09 16:52:04|| 2003-06-09 16:52:04|| Front Page Top

#3 Yank - exactly! The Religion of Toleranceâ¢ would close the Christian sites if they could get away with it. Imagine Bethlehem or Jerusalem in Saudi Arabia? I have no love for these Islamic close-minded bigots, and Israel allows us (Christians) to visit and worship our sites along with theirs.

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-09 17:08:49|| 2003-06-09 17:08:49|| Front Page Top

#4 I'm an evangelical; most other evangelicals I know support Israel and the Jews because we're commanded to--to support God's people, to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with "end times" (which, according to theory, will happen regardless of what we do and not because we push events along).

Posted by Anonymous 2003-06-09 17:54:36|| 2003-06-09 17:54:36|| Front Page Top

#5 Some off the Fundememtalist Christian attitudes mentioned here remind me of the one individual, can't remember his name, who is looking in the Dead Sea area for the lost treasures of the Temple because he believes their recovery will hasten the End of Days

Posted by Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire 2003-06-09 19:09:21|| 2003-06-09 19:09:21|| Front Page Top

#6 After thinking about it today some more, I was going to come out and post almost exactly what Anonymous said, but now I don't have to! I think that really sums it up for most of us. For most evangelicals (but not all--my church officially doesn't support this position) the Jewish people are still God's people and we're to support and help them.

Posted by lkl 2003-06-09 21:22:06|| 2003-06-09 21:22:06|| Front Page Top

#7 Hi ho: I'm from the Charismatic/Pentacostal wing of the evangelicals, the ones the fundamentalists hate with a passion...

Every serious Christian bases personal policies on the contents of the Bible. Howeever, the Bible requires interpretation to understand an ancient text enough to apply to a different time and culture. Basing "policy" on bible prophecy is shakey at best, since there ARE so many equally plausible interpretations of deliberately obscure passages.

However, Here's what, in my neck of Christianty, we consider to be the moneyquote from Genesis 12:1-3, which seems to be rather free of any sort of prophetic imagery:

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee. And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee, and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Pretty unambiguous. We're being theologically pragmatic here: Everyone should be applying the bible in order to maximize their legitimate interests, financially and security-wise. This verse says that support for Jews and Israel is automatically in the best interest of men and nations, since it guarantees the blessings of God. Similarly, persecution of the Jews (and Israel by extension) is the worst thing you could do for yourself.

Evidence? Compare the nations who are the friends of Israel against the ones who oppose it. I can think of only one of the former: The World Hegemon, the Unites States. There are quite a few in the latter group, and they all, in one way or another, are going to hell in a handbasket.

There are many good pragmatic and ethical reasons for supporting the Jews and Israel. The Charismatics/Pentecostals happen to believe that those spring from God's blessings on them, and that this promise represents a means by which the rest of mankind can also enjoy God's blessings. Support Israel, be blessed. Oppose Israel, and be cursed.

Thus, I am apprehensive about the Roadmap: If it leads to long term damage to Israel, Bush is going to catch shit from God. I'm hoping Bush has a plan that may involve short term losses, but long term benefits to Israel.

Christian anti-semitism can be traced to a belief that the Christian Church replaces the Jews as the object and beneficiary of the promises God made to the Jews. The Charismatic/Pentecostal wing believes that the church is a parallel track to salvation that is open to all, Non-jews and Jews, while the Jewish track is open only to Jews.

I disagree where the author of the article states that the solution lies in pulling God out of the Arab/Israeli conflict: The whole problem is deeply rooted in religion and religious concepts. Bush isn't a Jew or a Muslim, but being seriously religious gives him a leg up on understanding the core issues than Clinton, who was only a play-actor.

Posted by Ptah 2003-06-09 22:15:38|| [www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-06-09 22:15:38|| Front Page Top

#8 Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah (obviously) and that the Messiah is the savior for all of mankind. There is a debt of honor that christians owe Jews, to love them, to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and to witness for the truth of Jesus. Antagonism between the two has historically been more economic than religious, (the usual crap between ethnic groups) with the exception of the supremecists (white-power and hyper-Talmudists). Because most serious christians love Israel as a guardian of their heritage, they don't understand why American Jews would be largely atheistic and even hostile towards Christianity. They have also, as the article states, been more consistently pro-Israel than many American Jews. Even to the point of not criticizing Israeli policies (even the bad ones) Anti-Israel sentiment from christians, is usually from the liberal (nominal) wing or the ultra-fundo wing. Both of which are viewed with suspicion by the serious crowd. (Read: they don't believe they are christian. Christianity is a matter of a heart relationship with God, NOT a position paper)

Posted by Scott 2003-06-10 00:08:45|| 2003-06-10 00:08:45|| Front Page Top

#9 Hey, this is a hot button!
My 2 cents worth is that there are some pretty extreme people within just about every religion, usually with their own personal agenda, which if successful, would result in the extreme people in charge of a new order. My thought is that any of them would make the earth a pretty miserable place (mainly because it would be a reflection of their own warped personality).
Unfortunately, this seems to be the human condition.

Posted by Anonymous Troll 2003-06-10 00:34:26|| 2003-06-10 00:34:26|| Front Page Top

#10 Falwell
Farrakahn
Different skunks,same stink.

It is my understanding(yes I am Born Agin)that Christ's primary reason for coming to Earth was to establish a way for non-Jews to have a relationship with God and trough this relationship to partake of God's forgivness and access to heaven.

Posted by raptor 2003-06-10 09:33:36|| 2003-06-10 09:33:36|| Front Page Top

09:33 raptor
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