Article

2003-08-27 East Asia

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Frank Martin 2003-08-27 2:32:03 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 ~~Groucho~~ Marx, Lenin, and Stalin will be turning in their graves when they hear this on Coast to Coast.

(Did they bury Lenin or is he still topside?)

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-8-27 2:50:53 PM|| 2003-8-27 2:50:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 The official word is that it really is old vladimir under glass in red square, but the word on the street has always been that its a wax dummy. ( How could Stalin allow forensic evidence that he had Lenin killed to exist? easy, put him on display and then not allow anyone to touch him. pretty clever, eh comrade!)

Looks like a case where the corpse lasted longer than the ideas of the man himself. I cant think of a better totem of the failure of communism than either a rotting corpse kept preserved under glass or a wax dummy taking the place of a man to keep up the illusion. it works on so many levels.

Posted by Frank Martin 2003-8-27 3:15:09 PM|| 2003-8-27 3:15:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 In the past weeks, party organizations, research institutes and universities have been instructed to stop all conferences and suppress all essays about those three topics, according to sources within the Communist Party.

The next time any of the usual dumbasses complain about dissent in the U.S. being "crushed" by GWB and his administration, point them directly at China for a really good example on how such a thing is done and ask them: Is this really what's happening in the U.S.????

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2003-8-27 3:31:44 PM|| 2003-8-27 3:31:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 whats going on in china has nothing to do with socialism.

the proposed constitutional change by the "bad guys" says that the Communist party should be held to represent business, as well as workers (and peasants) How is this socialist? Any meaningful socialist party represent the interests of the working class, against all other interests. A social democratic party, functioning in a liberal society, accepts the existence of other interests, and represents the interest of the working class against them. The communist part of China, historically denied the rights of other parties to exist - they denied the rights of any interests other than workers and peasants to exist, - thus the Communist party, as purported defender of workers and peasants was the sole legitimate party.

China today is capitalist - arguably one of the most Dickensian, capitalist states on the planet. The party thus faces a choice - to recognise the rights of other parties to organize - and thus to attempt to become a social democratic party - like some of the reformed Communist parties of eastern europe - or to try to represent all interests, thus becoming more or less a fascist party. the communist party is choosing to put absolute power ahead of socialism, and so is choosing the fascist model. (note well - in this discussion i have made no distinction between democratic socialism and social democracy - a distinction i consider important in other contexts)

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-27 4:33:00 PM|| 2003-8-27 4:33:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Good discussion, and interesting thoughts but I would say its a bit like the catholics excusing the inquisition by saying 'sure,bad things happened, but it wasnt really true christianity'.

Socialism - rather done in small parts or in whole parcel, always leads back to the tyranny of the state over the individual. Whether or not its done for the peoples "own good" is never the question but it is always the answer given by tyrants to justify their inhuman rule.

Socialism falls right after the idea of 'heaven on earth' or utopia as one of the most distructive ideas invented by mankind.

In regards to China, I wouldnt say its capitalist, as it barely recognizes a market based economy, the fact that it uses money is inconsequential. I would say that it holds more true to fascism more than it does to communism, but I've always felt there isnt a whole lot of difference between those two in the first place ( fascist tyrants tend to insist on uniforms largely black with red piping while communist tyrants, tend to prefer more red devices and bigger hats, other than that, they use the same methods to control and kill their people. )
( I really,really hate the Nazis, but they did have some sharp looking uniforms, democracies tend to make uniforms that look like bus drivers. )

My posting was in recognition that China appears to be at a crossroads, one that still catches me by surprise. But then again I was surprised when the soviet union collapsed largely because ( it seemed to me anyway) they all woke up one day and realized there wasnt any money in communism and it might be nice to have more than one brand of toilet paper.

I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised again.

Posted by Frank Martin 2003-8-27 8:28:21 PM|| 2003-8-27 8:28:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 "I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised again."
Nor would I. In my case, "wouldn't mind" would be an understatement to put an Englishman to shame.

Posted by Kathy K 2003-8-27 8:57:55 PM|| [site-essential.com/] 2003-8-27 8:57:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I look at the handiwork of Deng and see pure mastery. Machiavelli would be proud.
To my mind, part of what's going on is heading off a crisis over free speech. It's being kicked down the road until the next generation. At the same time, institutional changes are being put in place to give a firmer base for reform. Control is retained, but the institutional instruments of control are being removed. The institutions are being changed with amazing speed.

The RAND study on regime change in war has a lot of thought I think applies here. The party elites have set up a tyranny system of sorts. Each generation of leaders weakens the entirety as a means of retaining control. Unlike a tyranny, it's not done through cruelty to the populace, but rather the populace is the threat held by the inner party against the outer party. The prize to be looted is not money or power, but immortality. In establishing the system and setting it in motion, Deng has secured his own immortality. Ziang is sticking around to ensure that his is secured as well, with including the 'Three Represents' in the constitution.

Posted by Dishman 2003-8-27 9:08:00 PM|| 2003-8-27 9:08:00 PM|| Front Page Top

04:26 R. McLeod
03:25 R. McLeod
03:12 R. McLeod
01:30 fullwood
00:10 Mike Kozlowski
00:10 Old Patriot
00:05 Old Patriot
00:00 someone
23:36 Old Patriot
23:29 Old Patriot
23:19 Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)
22:33 Old Patriot
21:58 Ptah
21:51 BossMan
21:36 tu3031
21:35 Super Hose
21:29 Super Hose
21:21 Alaska Paul
21:09 Alaska Paul
21:08 Dishman
21:07 tu3031
21:06 Kathy K
21:03 Watcher
21:02 tu3031