Article

2003-08-27 Iraq

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Murat 2003-08-27 4:00:03 AM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Murat - The primary difference between Iraq and the post-WWII reconstructions has far more to do with the fact that Iraq wasn't leveled. Real suffering, such as that felt in the aftermath of WWII - not the petty frustrations the Iraqis incessantly bitch about when one of your beloved BBC or IndyMedia weenies finally ventures out of his hotel, was the motivator there.

We agree, it seems, that the intelligent and educated Germans and Japanese "got it" - and made the hard decisions needed to remake their home countries and underpin their new societies with strong principles of civilized behavior. Even though you think yourself clever and urbane, you're not: you make my case for me regards the Arab Iraqis quite well. Thanx. Your attempt at sarcasm imploded.

We went into Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and their ability to provide state support to Al Qaeda. You love the Afghans? Fine. Turkey can make a name for itself, other than being just the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, by doing something about it. Name all of the magnificent efforts of Turkey to help others over, say, the last 50-100 years. I won't hold my breath because the list is zero, zip, zilch.

I know it must stick in your jaundiced and third-world craw that the numbers of dead Iraqis and quagmire claims of the morons don't support your hopes. You only have the BBC and the IndyMedia fuckwads to tell you what you so desperately want to hear. The disappointment you must feel regards hsitory is only going to get worse. Life can be a bitch - for asshats and the terminally lame. Buy a dog - he'll love you even after you kick him. For awhile, anyway.

Posted by .com 2003-8-27 5:37:33 AM|| 2003-8-27 5:37:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 .com, didnât your mom give you a name?

Iâll name you one, Cyprus. Even though some Greeks complain as they do for the habit, Cyprus is free of terror and massacres since Turkey took care of it in 1974. Have you heard any massacre/instability/terror story since? Can you provide also one effort in which America succeeded to bring peace? I won't hold my breath either.

Posted by Murat 2003-8-27 6:00:57 AM|| 2003-8-27 6:00:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Can you provide also one effort in which America succeeded to bring peace?

Panama. You said one so that's all I'm gonna give ya.

Posted by Raphael 2003-8-27 6:29:01 AM|| 2003-8-27 6:29:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Murat - LOL. You're a treasure. So, um, you named 2 for me, but let's see not be tacky about it. There's Japan and EUROPE, though the western half sorta sucks when it comes to appreciating it, and Korea, and the Phillipines, and a buttload of South Pacific Islands, China was on her knees and Russia would've lost ANOTHER 20 million without our aid... and there's that little Cold War thing... our efforts finally caused the Soviet Union to collapse and ended its World Domination program, and endless monetary aid to damned-near everyone, and the lion's share of support for programs of the UN... will that do for starters?

Lessee, Cyprus, cyprus, cyprus, cyprus... Oh, yeah, it's that little teeny island, right?

You're pathetic. Do the dog thing, it's your best bet for being loved and relevant in the world.

Posted by .com 2003-8-27 6:37:41 AM|| 2003-8-27 6:37:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Cyprus... Where is Aris, when you need him?

Posted by Anonymous 2003-8-27 6:42:21 AM|| 2003-8-27 6:42:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Why do you bother, guys?

Posted by Bulldog 2003-8-27 8:32:39 AM|| 2003-8-27 8:32:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I'm here. But it's obvious enough to me that people who believe that the ethnic cleansing of the entire island so that 18% of the population lives in the 40% of the territory,
ISN'T its own brand of terror, can't be discussed with.

Yeah, yeah, Greeks complain as they do for the habit. Well in this one matter, Greek complaints are heard and understood by the entire world. How many nations have recognized your conquered Northern Cyprus as a sovereign state, Murat? Is that Turkey, and um, Pakistan perhaps? Leading champions of human rights, both of them. And Pakistan only because it wants to do to Kashmir what Turkey did to Cyprus.

If Turkey had cared so much about the people of Cyprus then we'd have seen a bit fewer settlements from the mainland and efforts for demographical alteration in favour of Mainland Turk (Turk Cypriot aren't trustworthy enough, see, having lived so much time alongside Greek Cyrpiors). And we'd have seen a few less threats of accession every once in a while.

And oh, yes, where murders and terror stories are concerned http://www.agamemnon.dabsol.co.uk/Isaac.htm
http://www.agamemnon.dabsol.co.uk/Solomou.htm

Oh, no, no massacres and terror stories. But the Turk Cypriots now have a government which uses to employ cold-blooded assassins in the position of ministers, and uses state money to bring in the Grey Wolf fascist murderers in order to kill other children.

For the crime of you know. Being in their island. Climbing up flag masts. Stuff like that.

This interview btw makes clear the attitude of all parties involved, from the highest level down.

http://www.hr-action.org/chr/Aktuel103196.html

The "investigation" seems to have simply involved a person asking the suspected murderer of whether he did it or not. No other inquiry was required, even with photographic evidence that showed the guy was the one that pulled the trigger.

But, hey, why am I making the making the killing of a dog sound so important, right?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-27 8:35:26 AM|| 2003-8-27 8:35:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Spare me the Greek âAl-Sahafâ style information Aris, just tell me whether or not Turks and Greeks live in security now for the last 30 years on Cyprus. Can Greek Cypriots walk freely on the Turkish side of Cyprus or not, be a man only the truth please.

Posted by Murat 2003-8-27 8:55:32 AM|| 2003-8-27 8:55:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 well said Aris. Murat, typical, you are missing the trees for the forest

Posted by Dcreeper 2003-8-27 8:57:12 AM|| 2003-8-27 8:57:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Can you provide also one effort in which America succeeded to bring peace?

There has not been a war between North American nations since the mid-1800s.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-8-27 9:00:34 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-8-27 9:00:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 "Can Greek Cypriots walk freely on the Turkish side of Cyprus or not, be a man only the truth please."

For 30 years they *couldn't* walk freely. Turkish Cypriots could walk freely on the Greek part of Cyprus, but the opposite was forbidden.

It was only a couple months back, and after the pressure of Cyprus' admission into the EU, that the Denktash regime waived this restriction in order to seemingly appear civilised.

This doesn't nullify the Turkish conquest of Northern Cyprus or the huge expulsions of Greek Cypriots and the lands and properties stolen from them. And it doesn't nullify the murders, of course. Speak of security to Tasos Isaac and Solomos Solomou.

And btw, I don't think that the constant EU court decisions that'd condemn Turkey to pay for each violation of movement rights, had *anything* to do with the Turkish forces suddenly allowing such movement, do they now?

Hmm... perhaps you *should* forbid Greek Cypriots from entering Northern Cyprus. And at the same time make them wealthy, with money from Turkish taxpayers!

----
http://www.cyprusmedianet.com/EN/article/8831

"The Turkish-Cypriot doctor stated to Politis that from September 8 1992 until April 14 1998, he had filed 147 applications to the occupation authorities to allow him to visit the free areas (58 for political reasons, 47 for cultural reasons, 25 for medical reasons and 17 for social reasons.) From the 147 applications, 122 were rejected by the Denktash regime and 22 were approved....... The European Court of Human Rights pointed out that the rights of the applicant for freedom of assembly were infringed upon in violation of article 11 of the Convention. "

----

http://www.hr-action.org/action/loizidou.html

The legal battle for Titina Loizidou began in 1989, when Turkish military forces, which currently occupy 38% of Cypriot land, disallowed Ms. Loizidou, a Greek Cypriot citizen, from entering land which was legally hers. The battle ended with a final decision of the Court ordering Turkey to submit specified sums to the injured party. With this unique and important legal recognition of individual human rights in Cyprus established, the road is now open for any similar cases, either in the instance of occupied Cyprus or in those of similar illegal witholding of land by its rightful owners.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-27 10:44:29 AM|| 2003-8-27 10:44:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#12
Well in that case why is the GREEK CYPRIOT JUSTICE MINISTER THEODORU so furious at the Greeks who are crossing over to the Turkish part: "THESE PEOPLE ARE DAMAGING THE NATIONAL CAUSE. THEY SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE"
The Greek Cypriot Minister of Justice and Public Order, Doros Theodoru, criticising strongly those Greek Cypriots crossing over to the TRNC as the result of free crossings, alleged that "the Greek Cypriots staying in the TRNC "are damaging the national cause and that they should be left alone."

Does this mean the Greek Cypriot Justice minister is a moron dear Aris?

A short Cyprus history
Whereas any form of crossing the border (either pedestrians or cars) was allowed for Greek Cypriots to the TRNC, Turkish Cypriots were not allowed to cross to the south by cars.

Posted by Murat 2003-8-27 11:03:25 AM|| 2003-8-27 11:03:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 TROLL FIGHT! TROLL FIGHT!
*Grabs bag of popcorn and sits back to watch the show*

Posted by Ptah 2003-8-27 11:32:36 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-8-27 11:32:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 I'm amazed it took 'em took so long! I'd put my money on Aris, but since neither side will concede a thing, there's no point.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-8-27 12:01:05 PM|| 2003-8-27 12:01:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Damn, Ptah! Your statement produced protein smoothie spray on my desk and screen! LOL!

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-8-27 12:07:42 PM|| 2003-8-27 12:07:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Robert, hate to be a spoil-sport, but we invaded Mexico in 1916, after Villa sacked a town in New Mexico. Also, I think Panama counts as part of North America. As well as little things like the Football War of 1969 between Honduras and El Salvador.

Nonetheless, Murat's claim that the invasion of Cyprus somehow counts as humanitarian is very self-serving. Please don't pretend that irredentism is altruistic.

Posted by Mitch H. 2003-8-27 12:26:38 PM|| 2003-8-27 12:26:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Yeah, like I'm going to waste my breath arguing with a terrorism-condoning Muslim (half of them still think the earth is flat). F*ck you Murat.

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-27 1:12:53 PM|| 2003-8-27 1:12:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Cyprus is free of terror and massacres since Turkey took care of it in 1974.

Yup, and Mussolini made the trains run on time, Stalin took care of the Ukraine while developing Siberia, and there was that little Armenian problem the Turks took care of early last century...

Posted by Pappy 2003-8-27 1:52:42 PM|| 2003-8-27 1:52:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 "Does this mean the Greek Cypriot Justice minister is a moron dear Aris?"

Actually it means he's a chauvinist, which is pretty much identical to a moron, yes. But you'll note that his actions are limited to criticism, and unlike the Attila forces of Turkey he can't send big goons with guns stopping people from seeing their old homes, as happened for 30 years to the Greek Cypriots by the Turkish forces.

You see, that's the one truth that you can't hide. Saying that Denktas "opened the borders" after 30 years, only admits that he was the one keeping them closed all this time. Not the Greek Cypriots, but Denktas.

"Whereas any form of crossing the border (either pedestrians or cars) was allowed for Greek Cypriots to the TRNC, Turkish Cypriots were not allowed to cross to the south by cars."

Only because of the technicality that we don't recognize the legality of the Attila-issued car licences. "Instead, they have organized busses to provide free ride to those visitors from north"

So, we're offering free rides, you don't even have to waste gasoline to visit Southern Cyprus, and you're still dissatisfied because Turk Cypriots can't bring along their cars? When for *30 WHOLE YEARS* Greek Cypriots had no freedom of movement at all? When Turkish Cypriots themselves had to apply with their reasons to leave Northern Cyprus?

Even hypocricy has its limits, Murat.

And, Ptah, if you want to call me a troll, you've gotta back your words.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-27 2:06:37 PM|| 2003-8-27 2:06:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Robert, hate to be a spoil-sport, but we invaded Mexico in 1916, after Villa sacked a town in New Mexico. Also, I think Panama counts as part of North America. As well as little things like the Football War of 1969 between Honduras and El Salvador.

You're right. I'd forgotten about Pancho Villa, and hadn't included anything south of Mexico as part of North America.

Still -- a much better record than 90% of the globe.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-8-27 2:18:30 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-8-27 2:18:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 And, Bulldog, I've conceded that the Greek Cypriot Justice Minister is a moron. Will he concede that the Turkish Cypriot Agriculture Minister was a murderer?

I can also concede that human rights violation occured against the Turkish Cypriot community in the 1960s; people driven from their homes. Will he concede that the ethnic cleansing that took place during and after the Turkish invasion was several levels of awfulness higher?

Hmm... On another matter, hundreds of thousands of Muslims, most of them of Turkish descent and language, still live freely in (the Greek) Eastern Thrace. Once upon a time similar numbers of Greeks lived in (Turkish) Western Thrace and Istanbul. What has happened to them, Murat? How come the numbers of Greeks in Istanbul have diminished to a few hundreds of individuals alone?

Another case of ethnic cleansing, perhaps?

If, according to you, Turkey was right to invade Cyprus to stop human rights violations against the Turkish population of Cyprus, wouldn't you also have to admit that Greece would have the right to invade Turkey to stop human rights abuses against the Greeks of Istanbul?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-27 2:25:08 PM|| 2003-8-27 2:25:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 In short, Murat, in a game of wits and knowledge, don't enter the game so provocatively unless you can play it well. And unless you're sure you're defending the right side.

So far I've ran circles around you.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-27 2:30:01 PM|| 2003-8-27 2:30:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I nominate this episode for the classics page. What do you think folks?

Posted by Raphael 2003-8-27 2:57:58 PM|| 2003-8-27 2:57:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 ...And unless you're sure you're defending the right side.

If Murat only spoke when he was defending the right side, we'd never hear from him...

Posted by ----------<<<<- 2003-8-27 3:11:32 PM|| 2003-8-27 3:11:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Dear Aris, you talk about the Greeks who where once in Turkey, but what about the Turks who where in Greece did you ever gave a thought? My grandfather was from Selanik (known as Thessaloniki to you), only a few including himself of the family managed to flee Greece alive. But I have no grudge against the Greeks, nasty things happened during the war on both sides, no question about that. You talk about Thrace and Greek humanity am I right, please tell me also about the Macedonians who used to live there, what happened to them, did they choose to leave Greece on free will? Oh yes probably you will argue now that Macedonians where Greeks and all other kind of other blah blah.

On the matter of Cyprus Turkey gave the Greeks a fair chance to stop attrocities against the Turks there, and also the UN got its chance for at least 3 years to stop the Greek murders on Turks. But blinded by enosis your country left no other option. You might like it or not in 1974 Turkey saved the lives of thousands of Cypriot Turks, yes Greeks had to migrate to the south and Turks to the north of the island which might be considered as uncomfortable, but peace was secured and no massacres occurred after that.

Posted by Murat 2003-8-27 3:59:08 PM|| 2003-8-27 3:59:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 "But what about the Turks who where in Greece did you ever gave a thought?"

As I kinda mentioned the hundreds of thousands of Turks who still live in Greece, yes, very evidently I did indeed "ever give a thought"

They are still here. In Eastern Thrace. From the rest of the country they had to depart, same way that Greeks had to depart from Turkey, in the formal exchange of populations that followed the Asia Minor war of '22. That's old history, and you dragging up the muslims of Salonica, or of Thessaly or whatever, makes no sense, same way I didn't drag up the Greeks of Pontus or of Smyrna.

But you know very well that by treaty, Muslims were allowed to remain in Eastern Thrace and Greeks were allowed to remain in Western Thrace.

One of the countries abode by this agreement, and left its Muslim citizens there in peace, to worship and vote freely. But the other country constantly intimidated and harassed its Greek citizens, until they were nearly all forced to depart. That's called "ethnic cleansing" in my book.

Only a few including himself of the family of your grandfather managed to flee Greece alive? How nice. Some more details please? Are you referring to the Balkan wars that preceded World War I? Or to World War I itself? That's even *more* ancient history.

What about the Slavs who used to live here (whether they called themselves Macedonians or not) you ask? I think you know the answer to that also. Most of them left with the exchange of populations after the Balkan Wars, and the Greek civil war of '45 with the communists led to thousands of them being evicted as they supported the wrong side. They nowadays have the right to return for visits if they wish.

"You might like it or not in 1974 Turkey saved the lives of thousands of Cypriot Turks"

In 1974, the double crime against Cyprus occured, first by the Greek dictatorship who tried to make a coup against Makarios, secondly by the Turkish invaders of Attila. Only difference is that Greece recognizes the crime of its old dictatorship and Turkey not only doesn't recognize but perpetuates *its* crime.

How many massacres has Greece caused lately? We still hundreds of thousands of Muslim population, we could have massacred a few thousands, had we so wished. We didn't so wish it.

How much Christian population remains in *your* country Murat? What happened to the Armenians and the Greeks living there?

It's quite evident which country is the most peaceful nowadays. "By their deeds you shall know them."

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-27 5:32:04 PM|| 2003-8-27 5:32:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 i must say that im undecided on the cyprus question, like most of us here so that continued discussion of this might influence my point of view. ;)

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-27 5:43:43 PM|| 2003-8-27 5:43:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Seems that only a month or so ago, no less than Kofi admitted he had failed to resolve the Cyprus issue. Doubt that we at Rantburg will achieve more. Or not?

Posted by john 2003-8-27 7:40:52 PM|| 2003-8-27 7:40:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Btw, I kinda mixed up "Western" and "Eastern" in some of my posts above. It's Western Thrace that's (of course) part of Greece, and Eastern Thrace that's part of Turkey.

Though Western Thrace lies on the eastern part of Greece, and Eastern Thrace lie on the western part of Turkey. That's what confused me, yeah, that's the ticket. ;-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-8-27 8:02:52 PM|| 2003-8-27 8:02:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 What is absolutely fascinating about both Aris and Murat's posts is the detailled descriptions of the terrible wrongs done to minorities in both countries. I hope both of these fellas keep that in mind when they point fingers at the big, bad US..

Posted by R. McLeod 2003-8-28 4:26:59 AM|| 2003-8-28 4:26:59 AM|| Front Page Top

04:26 R. McLeod
03:25 R. McLeod
03:12 R. McLeod
01:30 fullwood
00:10 Mike Kozlowski
00:10 Old Patriot
00:05 Old Patriot
00:00 someone
23:36 Old Patriot
23:29 Old Patriot
23:19 Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)
22:33 Old Patriot
21:58 Ptah
21:51 BossMan
21:36 tu3031
21:35 Super Hose
21:29 Super Hose
21:21 Alaska Paul
21:09 Alaska Paul
21:08 Dishman
21:07 tu3031
21:06 Kathy K
21:03 Watcher
21:02 tu3031