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2003-12-11 Iraq

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Posted by tipper. 2003-12-11 2:41:18 AM|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 This was discussed yesterday.

LTC West was correct to expect at least an Article 15. I am grateful for his service and recognize his unit's urgent need for information from the captive.

However, it appears LTC West allowed soldiers in his unit to beat up the captive. Reports are that he then thrust the guy's head into the sand and fired his pistol into the sand near him. This goes way beyond firing a weapon vaguely in the captive's direction.

The US Military Academy and the other Army officer training schools stress their aim to produce leaders of character. Allowing or encouraging abuse of prisoners is bad for the Army and for that unit. It undermines discipline. War is chaotic and stressful & our Army's discipline is an important part of its professionalism and its effectiveness. The Army considers this so important that it accepts the possibility that this discipline might in a specific instance prevent effective interrogation of prisoners.

LTC West has done the honorable thing in accepting the fact that his actions were not proper. The possibility of a court martial rather than an Article 15 serves to remind all of our officers and enlisted troops that wartime discipline is central to our way of fighting.

I speak as the wife of a retired USAF officer and as someone who has a little first hand knowledge of how Army officers are trained.

Posted by rkb 2003-12-11 5:44:40 AM|| 2003-12-11 5:44:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 rkb, if you get a chance, read the whole article on how the prisoner was supposedly "roughed up," you may change your mind. Totally justified by someone in my experience and it saved lives. Heck, they could've beat this guy harder for all any of us care. I would rather have one bloodied Iraqi traitor pissing himself on camera, then five dead G.I.s because we didn't exhaust our possibilities of getting the info we needed. I'll take a court martial any day over having to write some lad's mom & dad why their son died under my command when I had the means to save his life. That's called leadership. Leadership from what I've seen is more then answering canned scenarios given at the academies or at Quantico. Trust me, OCS didn't have me prepared for the amount of decisions I had to make on a daily basis. I made a lot of mistakes and learned from them. I'd trust a Bn commander w/19 yrs experience to do the right thing. Leadership is making unpopular decisions that can often look bad and end your career, but saves lives. Often, the ends do justify the means. Plus, I agree w/you - abuse of normal prisoners is wrong as you say, however, this guy was a special case. I'm sure the LtCol saw it that way. If the Army had any brains they should've never made this an issue.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-12-11 9:15:40 AM|| 2003-12-11 9:15:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 rkb, it sounds like you're implying LtCol West didn't exhibit character by doing what he did. In my opinion, he risked his career and future for the lives of his men. That's what character is all about, putting the welfare of others above your own skin.

Posted by charlotte 2003-12-11 9:24:48 AM|| 2003-12-11 9:24:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Jarhead, I agree - leadership goes far beyond the canned scenarios and LTC West's actions might still be accepted by his peers and superiors in the military justice system. We'll see.

However, I'm a little concerned about attitudes I read here. Don't get me wrong - I can rant w/ the best of y'all and I understand the high feelings. But you and others here who've led in the field know that a commander does not have the luxury of indulging feelings like this - he has to make tough calls with as much dispassion as possible and he must hold himself and his soldiers to the highest standards of conduct.

That's my main point. It may well be that this particular case was justified or fell within the rules. But part of what makes our military so effective is that we hold ourselves to high standards precisely in cases like this. Those of us cheering from the sidelines need to realize how seriously the services take these matters. It's the military leadership themselves who are worried about the effects of such things, which should give the rest of us pause.

Charlotte, I agree that LTC West is showing character right now. "My men, then my mission and only then myself."

What I don't agree with are the statements that say he should be given medals for this incident. Sober, battle-hardened officers I know feel strongly otherwise.

Posted by rkb 2003-12-11 9:33:16 AM|| 2003-12-11 9:33:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I agree with rkb. The problem is that he admitted it. And once he admitted it, even he knew the hands of his superiors were tied. While I wish he had gotten a better lawyer, I have to admire him for having the integrity to stand tall, as a great man would.

I don't know what the answer is and I can only give a big huge sigh and head shake when hearing that he will be retiring. It is indeed a loss.

At least he can look in the mirror and know he did the right thing...even if it did cost him his job. He may have fallen on his sword, but he protected his troops in doing so. Greatness can't be measured in money or sucess.

Posted by B 2003-12-11 10:44:16 AM|| 2003-12-11 10:44:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Rkb, Jarhead is correct that this guy was a special case in that he was hiding something and they knew it. No I think that we should torture prisoners just because but if itâs between saving GI lives or a roughed up Iraqi I choose the latter. I am not sure how this would even have come to light except that maybe LtCol West had some remorse for his actions. I think that speaks VOLUMES about that mans character. There is a grey area that people operate in when they are out in front and I think that LtCol West did nothing wrong and should be retained in the Army. If he had tortured a prisoner that had knowledge of a Nuclear Attack on a major city we would be recommending him for the MOH and not an article 15. Also if my son/daughter was serving with LtCol West and just had his life saved by this action I would be a VERY grateful parent. God bless this man and all that serve.

Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2003-12-11 10:48:13 AM|| 2003-12-11 10:48:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 one more thing to clarify my thoughts in #5...

He can look in the mirror and know that it is the system that has failed here, not him.

Posted by B 2003-12-11 10:55:21 AM|| 2003-12-11 10:55:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 RBK, I respect your thoughts and further I don't know a thing about becoming or being an officer so, for what it's worth. . . I've experienced one or two highly educated officers that most likely ranked high in their classes and received outstanding fitness reports - and weren't worth a shit in the field. They could tell you all about the components of leadership and elements of character and would quote chapter and verse from a FM but their absolutely blind adherence to regs and SOPs made them, at times, truely dangerous to the unit they were commanding. Being in a combat zone forces officers to pick among truely horrible choices much of the time with precious little other than their gut feel to go on. From my strictly selfish perspective, I much prefered to serve with men of great character and compassion who broke the rules if necessary to ensure we had what we needed - be it intelligence, water, ammo, whatever. Abuse of prisoners should of course be avoided but if my CO doesn't go after every scrap of intelligence, well then he deserves whatever happens to him. Unit cohesion is a precious thing and if the ranks don't think you'd do everything for them then it's gone. I'd rather treat a POW's broken arm or black eye than write up a bunch of tags after the next firefight. LTC West will do fine on the outside but the Army as a organization and the men he would have led will be forever poorer for it.

Posted by doc8404 2003-12-11 4:14:36 PM|| 2003-12-11 4:14:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Jarhead OP and Cyber Sarge, in yesterday's thread, I pointed out my concern that this not become a precendent that leads to a return of interrogation by throwing one of two guys out of a chopper from several thousand feet and seeing what information the other guy would provide.

Do you think that this can be controlled in a way that doesn't send us from the gray area where this one lives back into the black (ie. Mai Lai.)

I would like to see this type of incident addressed in ROE's. I wouldn't trust most flag level guys to deal with this type of issue but I trust the judgement of Myers and Pace. Now that he is retired I would like to see Franks chair a panel on how to deal with intelligence collection in the field from prisoners.

There ought to be a different standard for insurgents dressed in civilian clothes and in possession of RPG's or bomb-making materials. O-5's, O-6's or other someone in posession of an independent command ought to have some authority to authorize torture. The decision ought to be subject to mandatory review.

I don't know that I am totally comfortable with the action that LtCol West took, but I certainly won't second-guess him from my PC in Indiana. He's got a lot of integrity. Never cared for careerists. A careerist would never have reported the incident. He can walk away with pride.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-12-11 5:12:30 PM|| 2003-12-11 5:12:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 LTC West will do fine on the outside but the Army as a organization and the men he would have led will be forever poorer for it.

The sad thing is, I agree with you and with Super Hose both.

Haven't much respect for the careerists I've met either.

Posted by rkb 2003-12-11 5:18:21 PM|| 2003-12-11 5:18:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 ROE are just a BASIS for how you deal with a situation. What set's our Military apart is that we allow our commanders in the field to make decisions. I too am not going to 2nd or 3rd guess a commander in the field from my PC in California. Doc makes an good point that sometimes th 'book' doesn't cover the situation and the CC has to make a hard choice. Not sure who was throwing prisoners from a helocopter? I saw it in a movie once or twice but was anyone ever convicted of this practice?

Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2003-12-11 6:55:47 PM|| 2003-12-11 6:55:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Mark Bowden wrote some articles about how Israel tried to deal with the issue. It is a common enough problem that the high command ought to provide some guidance at least - and not a whitewash.
I am not a big fan of the death penalty as it is currently constituted in the American courts, but I would like to see some sort of written policy for the case of clowns in civilian clothes in posession of explosives and RPG's. I think these Iraqi "freedom fighters" are expecting to get a slap on the wrist for committing a greivous war crime that endangers civilians. A scaffold might be the answer to the problem - commuted to a life sentence if a guy provides significant truthful information about ongoing operations.
As for flinging people out of helicopters, I don't know that it happened. Frankly, I don't want to know. I feel that the practice would be a symptom of a breakdown of dicipline. As I have written, though, without having been to Vietnam I can't speculate on what happened there. If I had captured VC known to have massacred children, I might have been the guy at the door sailing the punks to their doom. I am just as glad not to know what I would have done in anger.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-12-12 4:59:46 AM|| 2003-12-12 4:59:46 AM|| Front Page Top

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