Article

2004-02-11 Europe

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Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-02-11 1:12:56 PM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I think it's something else. Europe is waking up to the fact that Islam poses a threat to their belief in separation of church and state. Islam will in effect create another class of unequal citizens (muslims themselves). Europeans tend to worry about things like this.

Posted by Rafael 2004-2-11 1:26:18 PM|| 2004-2-11 1:26:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Rafael - I hope it's more than just the question of church / state separation. They are at risk, for while they are lesser Satans, they are still Satans! This headscarf thing is just a sparkle of light from the drop of water on the cherry atop the icing on the cake - I certainly hope it's not being taken seriously as the reality of Islam as threat - ala Phrawnce!

TGA, help! Perspective on Hesse and how this plays - is it just for public consumption, such as the Phrench move?

Posted by .com 2004-2-11 1:50:41 PM|| 2004-2-11 1:50:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 There is a big difference between Germany and France in this regard: Pupils may still dress as they please, it's about the teachers who are forbidden by law to carry religious or political propaganda into schools.
One teacher sued the school authority of a German state, the case went up to the highest court which ruled that veils can be banned for teachers if the lÃ¤nder authority (education is in the hands of the 16 German lÃ¤nder) makes a law.
Religious neutrality has been an issue before: An atheist parent sued a school because it had a crucifix hanging in the school rooms.
Personally I think the teacher ban is ok, I'm less convinced about the civil servant's ban. Somebody who checks your tax declaration is a civil servant, too, and I really don't care whether she wears a scarf in the office or not.
But because of the Court ruling all lÃ¤nder have to pass a law regarding the use of veils for teachers. And Hessen has a prime minister who wants to become the next (CDU) chancellor of Germany.
I dont like him though, he's an opportunist with no character.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-2-11 2:33:47 PM|| 2004-2-11 2:33:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Now that seems reasonable, TGA, thanks. As I think about it, it seems Hesse is apparently just addressing the issue from the POV that the Teachers are role models and shouldn't convey a message that might be construed as advocacy. Other civil servants should be looked at in the same vein - where their role may uduly influence the young, it is of some significance. Otherwise, not - so no ban should not be imposed for it isn't of any consequence.

Is that a reasonable take on it?

BTW, thanx for replying, and for the detail!!! It's not reasonable for me to assume you're always hanging out at Rantburg!

Posted by .com 2004-2-11 2:43:06 PM|| 2004-2-11 2:43:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Well sometimes I'm hanging out at security conferences!

Posted by True German Ally 2004-2-11 2:50:34 PM|| 2004-2-11 2:50:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 An atheist parent sued a school because it had a crucifix hanging in the school rooms.

TGA... recall the outcome of the suit?

Posted by Shipman 2004-2-11 2:57:40 PM|| 2004-2-11 2:57:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I dont like him though, he's an opportunist with no character.

TGA, is John Kerry running for chancellor?

Posted by Raj 2004-2-11 3:02:27 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com] 2004-2-11 3:02:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 "Well sometimes I'm hanging out at security conferences!"
Heh... And was it interesting, useful, etc.?

I have to tell you, I envy your knowledge and access, but not the experiences and events you endured to reach the present moment - and I always keep it in mind when reading your responses. I have deep respect for your take on things - and appreciate that you take the time to give us your perspective. Sorry if this embarrasses you!

Posted by .com 2004-2-11 3:22:04 PM|| 2004-2-11 3:22:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 What he said.

Posted by Matt 2004-2-11 3:41:56 PM|| 2004-2-11 3:41:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Thanks for the info, TGA, particularly about the politics. You da' Mann!

I lived in Hesse over 30 years ago, but admit I didn't pay much attention to local politics (though some to national). It was a beautiful place. I liked Frankfurt am Main, and loved the Hessischer accent (it's much easier for an American to pronounce!). :-p

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-2-11 5:29:42 PM|| 2004-2-11 5:29:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I believe that once Europe comes face to face with its own Islamist problem,the response will be more along the lines of Jean-Marie Le Pen than the G.W.Bush's way.We don't have the power or the self-confidence to reach out over the seas and try to root out extremism at its source.If a 9/11-attack happened here,it would be a big boost for the far-right,xenophobic elements in Europe.

Posted by El Id 2004-2-11 5:39:22 PM|| 2004-2-11 5:39:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Ditto .com, Matt.

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-2-11 6:11:45 PM|| 2004-2-11 6:11:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 #13 "I dont like him though, he's an opportunist with no character."

Funny, that perfectly fits to my view of all politicians, everywhere.

Posted by 98Zulu 2004-2-11 6:41:34 PM|| 2004-2-11 6:41:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 TGA, thanks for your reports and analyses.
Let me guess the crucifix case was in Oberbayern.

Posted by GK 2004-2-11 6:54:40 PM|| 2004-2-11 6:54:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Some might take this wrong, but I like to see France and Germany challenging Islamic practices/traditions because I think it increase the chance that the Islamists will conduct terrorist activities against France and Germany. I know, I know, that sounds horrible, and I don't enjoy the thought of any terrorist attack. I will feel outraged if/when it occurs. But I think that might be the only way for the French and Germans to understand that there really is a war going on, and they need to understand that they cannot stay neutral or use the war to establish a "multipolar" world in which it makes sense for them to restrain the U.S. Civilization will have a better chance to win the war when the citizens of all civilized countries learn (hopefully in a less horrendous manner) the lesson that Americans learned on 9/11--we face an evil and dangerous enemy (Islamic fascism) whose adherents and promoters must be hunted down and killed, and whose message must be challenged and exposed as evil and futile.

Posted by sludj 2004-2-11 7:38:52 PM|| 2004-2-11 7:38:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 In my own opinion the Germans are finally starting to realize the Turkish "guest"workers they started bringing in back in the '70s have bit them in the ass. Add in the other Islamic cultural aspects and they are starting to react. Fortunately or not the US and Canada seem to do better job of assimilating or at least absorbing minorities. But the day when we start reacting in an unfriendly manner is not too far down the road.

Posted by Cheddarhead 2004-2-11 10:14:59 PM|| 2004-2-11 10:14:59 PM|| Front Page Top

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