Article

2004-03-07 Afghanistan/South Asia

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Paul Moloney 2004-03-07 12:04:14 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Hummmm! Thanks, Paul, that was quite an interesting read...a different take on the problem, one that I would not normally find on my own.

Thanks again,

Posted by Traveller 2004-3-7 2:20:41 AM|| 2004-3-7 2:20:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Agreed! Interesting read.

Posted by phil_b 2004-3-7 5:29:25 AM|| 2004-3-7 5:29:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Well well well - sounds like not everyone in that neck of the woods is enamoured with the Arab way of doing things.

Good.

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-3-7 6:58:09 AM|| 2004-3-7 6:58:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Islam is a deification of Arabia's primitive culture. Moslems everywhere bow down five times a day to worship a rock in Arabia. Moslems everywhere are supposed to travel to Arabia and leave some of their money there at least once in their life. Moslems everywhere are supposed to talk, dress and act like the primitive desert bandits of Arabia.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-3-7 9:55:20 AM|| 2004-3-7 9:55:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 no worries, the world seems to think our culture is better

Posted by Dcreeper 2004-3-7 2:25:12 PM|| 2004-3-7 2:25:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Does that ulcer bother you often, Dcreeper? Prolly synch'd with your posting schedule. FOAD.

On-Topic...
Thx, Paul. I find the entire spectrum of "God told me to do it" acts to be reprehensible for the fact that this excuse precludes and denies personal responsibility for the entire chain, from the "leader" who teaches the hate and delivers the marching orders all the way down to the "believer" who performs the deeds of hate.

All belief systems have historical moments when they strayed from civility - and practice active revisionism to moderate the reaction, but those which survive customarily contain sufficient positives to provide, on balance, what can be described as saving grace.

Islam, as a belief system, is demonstrably the most myopic, mercenary, psychotic, illogical, and paranoid belief system of size on the planet. It is rather clearly the exception to the rule. By far, it is the most prolific actor on the hate stage - and has probably been striving for this "honor" since its inception.

Reality trumps all, so I pose the question:

Though it can be argued intellectually to be just another belief system with identifiable positives (e.g. charity - though only for fellow believers), isn't the fact that the actual practice of Islam, the balance, is self-sufficient proof that it is a human pathogen - even for those who believe, but certainly for those who embrace a different set of beliefs?

If the answer is yes, then what is the appropriate response when a pathogen is identfied? Eradication? If still in the "yes" category, why all the dithering - by so many who obviously can follow a train of thought from problem cognition to solution?

If there is a "no" in the sequence, then someone else can pose that alternate response sequence - I find myself concluding "yes" all along the line and wondering when we will discard the civil response to (to put it mildly) the incivil reality of Islam.

Posted by .com 2004-3-7 4:28:46 PM|| 2004-3-7 4:28:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#7
Well, .com, I have commented on your Pathogen analysis before...I see it as "Ideas," controling people, people only being the carriers, but in essence our thoughts are the same, just different language.

However, I will posit a dificulity for you in Pathogen Germ Theory...the pathogen has the ability to kill the host. Sometimes the host can do something about it, but often, the host can do nothing, nothing really effective, and the host dies.

Islam can win. The trememdous appeal of Islam, besides just its current outsider satus and hence added appeal, is that it calls into question the very shallowness of modern civalization, our rampant materialism, our vague sense of anomie, our frequent inability to connect to others, even family.

Islam has answers for all of this and it answers the real need inside of people for a Spiritual Answer, and I say this as a non-belilver, but I still recognize that this is a present need and a pressing reality inside of most people.

Islam works and is spreading because it fufills certain human needs...can Western Secularism or even Christianity compete?...I just don't know.

But I do think that we have to realize and acknowledge that this is the essential problem.

Best Wishes,

Posted by Traveller 2004-3-7 7:39:01 PM|| 2004-3-7 7:39:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Traveller - I'm not sure - did you say we agree, just use different language to describe the situation?

Regards the pathogen idea, indeed, nature customarily dictates that the agent not kill off the host - at least not before the host can infect others (to maintain the agent) - simple genetic selection at work. Ebola appears to be an exception on first blush, but that's not really true since there is (must be) a non-human repository (vector?) to conserve its existence. Dr Steve can clarify and correct me, I'm certain!

As for the "benefits" of Islam, where it addresses human "needs" and, thus, survives, I'll dissent with this: most Muslims, by a huge margin, are / were born to Islam. They did not choose it, but born to it and were indoctrinated before they could walk or talk, much less critically analyse it (assuming the culture encouraged intellectually independent thought - ha!), and are threatened with death if they should leave or criticize it. This is, by far, the main reason for Islam's "growth" - internal population growth.

Conversions are a much different animal - and I'll suggest, since I've thought about this for several years before Islam became the apparent threat it is today, that Islam is what I think of as a "bottom feeder" - and I apologize to catfish and vultures, lest the act of survival by eating offal and carrion be denigrated by something as truly disgusting as Islam in practice.

People can be taught to believe anything - and I mean absolutely anything. If isolated and thus allowed to go unchallenged by experiences which expose its flaws, it reaches a point in the majority of adherents that makes it unassailable - contrary evidence is discarded out of hand and usually characterized as some sort of devilish lie. How convenient, no?

Can other ideologies compete? Certainly, if given sufficient opportunity early enough and often enough. The Internet is definitely one means. I find it hysterical that so many are surprised by the avenues by which people are influenced... My favorite example is the "outrage" generated when access to anything involving sex is concerned... Duh! Every human on this planet is pre-wired for sex - so it sings on a far more basic level than any intellectualization, weighing pros and cons, rational comparison, etc... Janet's mundane titty pic was probably shared amongst hundreds of thousands of Muslim males. Externally, they are either outraged (same as the PCzoids in the West) or shouting "Aha! See? Proof of decadence!" - when it was nothing more than a typical crass grasp for publicity by an "entertainment" industry cretin. Internally, it titillated - and probably prompted a Google spike! My point is exposure to different ideas, early enough, or ideas which supercede imposed societal restrictions effectively start the process of comparison. Among those with the social connections to have communications connections, you would find a ready audience for apostasy - but Islam has anticipated this (The Devil takes many forms!) and imposed the harshest punishment it can devise in hopes of deterring independent thought.

Information and perspective are our best weapons for winning in any conflict of ideologies - the wiring is on the side of the open and free society, warts and all. BUT, where that is not allowed by the opponent, I see no fallback strategy for a peaceful end.

How can any belief system "compete" with an opponent whose entire social system is based upon an ideology of global conquest, without restriction on actions that achieve the desired end - including suicide attacks and / or using any weapon they can get their hands on, and demanding the utter destruction of all other ideologies either through dhimmitude - or death to any who will not accept subjugation. The West is currently hamstrung by the notion of chivalry (Order of the Garter, et al) which has evolved in many ways - even foolish and idiotic distortions, such as PCism and self-hate.

IMHO, from observations dating back about 14 years, now, I believe it is mischaracterized to say it's Islam vs Secularism & Christianity... I'd say it's Islam vs Everything Else. And, additionally, I believe we're not in a competition in the Marketplace of Ideas... I think, for all but a priviledged few in Islam, we're competing against a blind, deaf, and dumb monolith of indoctrinated zealots. Methinks, when all of the trappings and apologies and spin are stripped away -- it's them or us. I choose us.

I hope this rambling makes sense and clarifies my use of the "dire" pathogenic model!!!

Posted by .com 2004-3-7 9:02:25 PM|| 2004-3-7 9:02:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 No .com, it makes great sense. There are so many great quotes from you that this will be difficult, but I'll try...

- the wiring is on the side of the open and free society-

I hope so, but the base of this a 19th Century Construct...That there is such a thing as progress, the idea that things are getting better and better, (or even that there is a better to get to). This is certainly not the norm in Human Societies...in the Middle Ages what was was, and would be for all time...Islam is similar in this regard.

The idea that there might not be such a thing as progress, (Societies are whole and unique unto themselves), was really a product of the terrible 20th century...Was WWI or WWII or Mutually Assured Destruction really progress...or just a higher order of horror?

Apostasy, as you correctly note, is the central problem with Islam...hence my argument that not Democracy should be our gift to the East...but rather Freedom of Conscience, (Yes, I know it is easier said than done).

-we're competing against a blind, deaf, and dumb monolith of indoctrinated zealots-

With which I also unfortunantly agree. This does, however, tend to contradict your first premise..."we are wired for freedom."

But are we? Or are we only wired to be a part of the machinery we call our Society? This is too large a question for a thread that will soon disapear...lol (the only flaw in rantburg--You've gotta say everything in one day).

If it is however, as you seem to posit and as I distinctly fear, that this is "Us against them," then how do we get out of this without killing 100 million of them?

Den Beste wrote on of his 5,000 word essays on this...the end conclusion being that if we did, the world and especially America would never be the same.

Have you ever felt that you're in a box without a door?

Posted by Traveller 2004-3-7 9:42:55 PM|| 2004-3-7 9:42:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Magnificent

Posted by Ptah 2004-3-7 10:45:11 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-3-7 10:45:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Traveller - I'll hurry this cuz, as you say, we're coming down to the wire!

We've had a slight miscommunication - and it's my fault for not being more specific! The wiring (and, BTW, I didn't say "wired for freedom"!) I refer to is Darwin 101: sex; propagation. Want to stand out? Find a way to use sex - the ultimate sales tool. Appeal to it, and you have everyone's attention, to some degree, at least. Open societies, of course, only minimally restrict it - so they are extremely "interesting" to people from less open and closed societies. Using this definition of wiring sorta makes your other points on it hard to reply to! Sorry. My bad!

On the point of "us vs them" I read den Beste's article, too (I'm in DT's with him on hiatus!) and agree with you both: if forced into it, it will be us - and they may well cease to exist afterwards. Of course, the "fallout" would be extreme polarization among us and, compared with the act of defending our way of life from Islam, it would be a relatively small (read: minor) step to simply throw our LLL zoomies out... and to be honest, I know I would not like the lock-step society that might result. That's far down the road, though. Perhaps we will be able to apply an AD (Assured Destruction - One Way, not Mutual) demonstration in the same manner as occurred with Japan at Hiroshima / Nagasaki to avoid the all-out response. Talk and jihadi screech is one thing. A leveled city of molten glass and iron is another. I hold out only moderate hope, however, that the idiots will be reigned in before they do something to us that invites an extreme response.

Re: Box without a door...
Absolutely true - and good a metaphor for our situation. Factually, we didn't start it, however, and whether this insanity proceeds is truly up to them. Their few will decide the fate of their many. Such is the fate of cattle - to use the metaphor they so arrogantly and nonchalantly apply to us.

Posted by .com 2004-3-7 11:14:35 PM|| 2004-3-7 11:14:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Ding! Ding! Ding! The Bell has rung on 3/07/04, and you made it under the wire but I did not...lol

Still, I hope that you do see this .com, and thanks for a stimulating conversation.

Best Wishes & Be Good (Oh I hope you're right...we've been in tough spots before, meaning mankind, with luck we should make it out again)

Traveller

Posted by Traveller 2004-3-8 2:08:35 AM|| 2004-3-8 2:08:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Take heart. Such cultural imperialism is not irreversible as the survival of Romanian (with latin script) and the revival of Welsh demonstrate. Stand up, get ready for a long fight, and you may find that your grandchildren will just be shaking their head ruefully at the madness of their arabizing ancestors.

Posted by TM Lutas 2004-10-13 12:34:49 PM|| [http://www.snappingturtle.net/jmc/tmblog] 2004-10-13 12:34:49 PM|| Front Page Top

12:34 TM Lutas
08:23 Jennie Taliaferro
07:08 Shipman
06:51 Shipman
04:25 Anonymous
02:08 Traveller
00:26 Aris Katsaris
00:04 .com
23:55 tu3031
23:48 tu3031
23:45 Frank G
23:41 Danny
23:35 Phil B
23:32 .com
23:32 badanov
23:31 B
23:30 Pappy
23:25 Steve White
23:23 Steve White
23:21 B
23:14 .com
23:07 Anonymous
22:58 Pappy
22:54 Frank Martin