Article

2004-03-07 Europe

Greeceâs Conservatives Oust Ruling Socialists

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Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-03-07 7:59:25 PM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 widespread discontent over low incomes, poor public services and corruption scandals

And give up this socialist paradise? The ingrates!

Posted by badanov 2004-3-7 8:04:18 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-3-7 8:04:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Socialist paradise for them.....Maybe more like center-left???

Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-3-7 10:18:21 PM|| 2004-3-7 10:18:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 It doesn't mean anything much to the EU. ND was the party that original had us enter the EU - PASOK was the party that under the leadership of its original founder was anti-EU, anti-American and anti-West in general, until it had a nearly complete makeover during the 90s (during the rule of the PM Simitis) at which point it went atleast as EU-friendly and America-friendly as you are likely to find in the forefront of the Greek political scene.

Its current leader, George Papandreou went even further in the direction of "modernization" and is considered an "Atlanticist" by many - thus a tool of the Americans for his enemies on the left -- or the far right-wing, many of them housed in ND still.

And badanov, you having an allergic reaction over the word "Socialist" doesn't actually mean you have a clue about political realities in Europe, and definitely not in Greece. The economical right-wing (Stefanos Manos, Andrianopoulos) cooperated with PASOK in these elections because they saw it more open to their laissez-faire suggestions, while several old-fashioned socialists emigrated to New Democracy, because according to them PASOK is no longer left-wing/socialist enough for their tastes.

Both parties have similiar attitudes about EU, however, so nothing is gonna change on that front.
If anything's gonna change that concerns this forum is that the IMO amoral populist Karamanlis is more likely to give in to the anti-American hysteria that occasionally grips Greece, than the more responsible Papandreou.

More articles from me on this here:
Ramble 1 - the chauvinists
Ramble 2 - the alliances
Ramble 3 - the debates

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-7 10:18:51 PM|| 2004-3-7 10:18:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 And badanov, you having an allergic reaction over the word "Socialist"

I am kinda funny that way. I see the word socialist I can easily assume socialist means socialism. Sooo, when a Socialist groups wants the votes of conservaties it should not use the word socilist if they are free market folks.

Which is funny, since I fail to see how free market folks would even remotely want to be identified with their ideological opposites.

And Aris, republicans do cooperate with democrats and so far the democrats have not used the word socialist. Does this mean they do not represent the left wing. They do. The same way socialists would represent greece's leftwing.

You can try to convince me otherwise, but when I see a story of Eurostan politics, I must assume socialist means leftwinger.

Posted by badanov 2004-3-7 11:32:04 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-3-7 11:32:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 "I see the word socialist I can easily assume socialist means socialism."

And when I see the word "liberals" I assume it to actually mean liberals, but in the economic front you Americans use it to mean socialdemocrats instead of supporters of laissez-faire liberalism.

On the social front you use it as befits it on the other hand, to describe the supporters of personal liberty. Not so on the financial front.

"Which is funny, since I fail to see how free market folks would even remotely want to be identified with their ideological opposites."

Because politics isn't just economy, it's also foreign affairs, and protection of minorities, and education and defending freedom of expression and religion, in which case the right-wings liberals have lots and lots in common with the left-wing liberals (socialdemocrats), but pretty much nothing in common with the right-wing CONSERVATIVES.

The true ideological opposites of the aforementioned progressive right-wing liberals isn't the progressive socialdemocrats, but the truly conservative Communist Party instead.

Do you understand the difference between a right-wing liberal and a right-wing conservative?

"The same way socialists would represent greece's leftwing."

There's authoritarian left-wing, and then again there's liberal left-wing. The same way there's authoritarian right-wing and there's liberal right-wing.

There's conservatives and there's progressives.
There's liberals and there's statists.

If you think that politics can be summed up in two words "left" and "right", then you are sorely mistaken.

"And Aris, republicans do cooperate with democrats and so far the democrats have not used the word socialist."

That's because America is bizarre. The Brits used the word "Liberal" (or "Labour") when they meant the word "Socialist" instead, and Americans just followed suit. To understand the insanity of that think how on the economic front a "libertarian" American is the exact opposite of a "liberal" American.

In the European sense however the meanings are closely related, on both social and economic fronts, not opposites.

"You can try to convince me otherwise, but when I see a story of Eurostan politics, I must assume socialist means leftwinger."

Something as specific as "socialist" or "social-democratic" and you want to have it 'mean' the extremely vague "leftwinger" instead?

I'm NOT trying to convince you that "socialist" doesn't mean left-wing. What I'm trying to convince you is that politics are lots more varied than your two-party system and your simpleminded (moronic) division into liberals/concervatives can encompass. New Democracy is a conservative party that drove away the vast majority of its laissez-faire liberals (and this made them *more* conservative, not less so). PASOK is a social-democratic party that's willing to discuss a coalition with aforementioned laissez-faire liberals.

Make of that what you will.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-3-8 12:26:55 AM|| 2004-3-8 12:26:55 AM|| Front Page Top

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