Article

2004-03-24 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by mojo 2004-03-24 3:04:05 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'm not sure about class structure - I'm not up on the current Iraqis' view on manual labor, etc... but I do think the cook is a bright spot in the dark! He sure hit several nails squarely on the head! "Pimping" - Lol! "Al Cook" for GC, heh!

Posted by .com 2004-3-24 7:43:09 AM|| 2004-3-24 7:43:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I believe that people are people, with cultural (and yes, some biological differences) but for the most part, people act similarly and predictably, as human nature dictates.

However, but, - is it just me, or do Arab's, in general, seem incapable of empathy? They just seem 100% unable to understand to grasp the concepts of quid pro quo. Yassin killed. Yassin therefore got killed. It was justified when they did it to the Jews - but they seem truly shocked, befuddled, and clueless that if you dish it out, you should expect to be asked to eat it.

I know I'm not verbalising this well, but I see a real inability on the part of the Middle Easterners for introspection. Maybe its a Christianity-like, Western thing, rather than a trait of human nature.

Posted by B 2004-3-24 8:11:55 AM|| 2004-3-24 8:11:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 B - I'd say it's deeply cultural:
blame vs shame

The Islamic societies play the blame card - at all times and in every event. There is zero introspection required when one is never at fault - and it certainly has not been taught to them from childhood onward.

The "shame" societies, such as Christians and Jews and Buddhists (though it's not exactly shame, it's, it's, something inscrutably different, heh!) (BTW, anyone want to try Hinduism's inclinations for or against introspection?), all heavily depend upon instrospection to generate guilt or self-evaluation - and have taught a methodology from birth onward regards how to do it and why.

The differences, of course, are as stark as black 'n white. One grows. One is DOA at Day One.

That's my observation, anyway. I hope it actually applies to your query!

Posted by .com 2004-3-24 8:33:30 AM|| 2004-3-24 8:33:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 To paraphrase Faramir:

"Iraq must truly be a great realm, Master Zeyad, where breakfast cooks are such astute observers."

Posted by Mike 2004-3-24 8:40:58 AM|| 2004-3-24 8:40:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 well put! While I believe that all humans would flourish under democracy, I have to wonder if democracy, which relies on respect for the beliefs of others, can flourish under a culture of blame.

Posted by B 2004-3-24 8:42:25 AM|| 2004-3-24 8:42:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Actually, I think we'd all agree that the name of the game is that they must embrace democracy - especially the part of it that requires respect for all points of view - in place of their culture. A democratic system which enshrines the individual as the SOLE holder of power and rights, rights and power which are NOT transferred to any org to which the individual might belong on any given day, is the culture they must adopt. When they understand and address true individualism, the rest come easily. This is the real sticking point we have with the EeeeWwww o'philes. They never quite "got it" and wandered off into collectives. Probably a cultural fear thingy. Who gives a shit? They're fuckin' wrong, heh! And they will never catch up until they get it. Sorry - too windy this AM!

Posted by .com 2004-3-24 8:53:37 AM|| 2004-3-24 8:53:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 funny- I was just thinking about this and I agree with both .com and Mike.

Mike makes a fair point about the cooks. But it still doesn't change the underlying basis for the problem: a significant cultural difference that makes them incompatable...ie: Why do they hate us/what can we do to improve the situation?? v/s Blame the Jews!!

But then I thought about it and decided that our own "new" left isn't really much different either. They have spent the last 20-30+ years blaming the white male establishment for every kid that decides to steal a car. There is no real introspection or call for personal responsibility there either. Just a quick blame of the boogeyman.

Sorry to go off on a thought bubble..Ultimately .com nailed it on the head re: the concept of those who never quite got it - and none of them will ever catch up until they do.

Posted by B 2004-3-24 9:21:16 AM|| 2004-3-24 9:21:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Until the Arabs throw out the literal & extremist interpretations of the Koran they will never embrace democracry as we know it. Their religion is based on 'submission to god' as framed by Mohammad's writings. I only hope that the Iraqis become some sort of beacon for democratic change in the ME. If some sort of moderation can be brought to Iraq culturaly w/real economic progress, over the next decade that influence will start to spread in the region. Either way I think this will be a long, long road.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-3-24 9:28:43 AM|| 2004-3-24 9:28:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 It has a lot to do with a religion that preaches that not only should those who are non-believers (in the one true faith) not be perceived as equal, but that they should be enslaved and/or killed. Drama queens and dishonorable society that they have, it's all hysteria

Posted by Frank G 2004-3-24 9:32:22 AM|| 2004-3-24 9:32:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 sadly, other Iraqi bloggers who are typically pro American took the 'he was just a cripple' tack or the 'it was the wrong time' tack

Posted by mhw 2004-3-24 9:57:31 AM|| 2004-3-24 9:57:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Pals supported Saddam so naturally the Iraqi's don't have a lot of use for the Pals now that they are free. Just as Kuwait had no use for the Pals after the first Gulf War. Hopefully it won't be long before the Iranians also have no use for the Pals.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-3-24 11:14:50 AM|| 2004-3-24 11:14:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 B - you're right. By western standards, failure to learn from painful experience is one of the symptoms of mental illness. But they live by a different set of standards where what they wnat it to be is more real than what it is.

Posted by Mercutio 2004-3-24 12:17:16 PM|| 2004-3-24 12:17:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 but I see a real inability on the part of the Middle Easterners for introspection.

I've thought a lot about this recently. Its tied up maturity as both individuals and societies and the concept of responsibility. When western societies went through change from it is god's will to it is my/our responsibility. You see a similar evolution in individuals. Kids and adolesecents love to blame others - 'Its not my fault!'. Most people grow out of this and figure out that they are responsible for their lives and there is also a collective responsibility across community, country, etc. Those who don't remain commited socialists. Churchill summed it up when he said 'Every reasonable man is a socialist at 20 and a conservative at 40.' Muslims and socialists suffer from the same problem - arrested personal/cultural development.

Posted by phil_b 2004-03-24 6:54:01 PM|| 2004-03-24 6:54:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 phil

well said!

Posted by B 2004-03-25 10:24:55 AM|| 2004-03-25 10:24:55 AM|| Front Page Top

10:24 B
09:03 B
08:55 B
08:50 The Doctor
08:39 B
07:08 Fred
03:27 Evert Visser in NL
01:17 gromky
00:40 Super Hose
00:30 mojo
00:22 mojo
00:05 Barbara Skolaut
23:56 Korora
23:52 Super Hose
23:51 Anonymous
23:47 Jen
23:43 Raj
23:43 Super Hose
23:42 Raj
23:33 Laurence of the Rats
23:28 Frank G
23:19 Super Hose
23:16 Super Hose
23:15 The Doctor