Article

2004-04-09 Europe

Belgian Display Says U.S. Has Worst Genocide

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Posted by Steve White 2004-04-09 12:44:52 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 This is the same Andre Flahaut who declared the US military to be "inefficient" for using 3 or 4 helos to ensure successful transport and openly declared that "if I were an American, I would vote Democrat" ...

... he's since been declared persona non grata in Washington. http://brusselsblog.blogspot.com covered it ...

Posted by Edward Yee 2004-04-09 1:22:28 AM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2004-04-09 1:22:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The newspaper complained about a "curious" list of genocides that mentioned Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Cambodia, Armenia and other countries - but ignored killings in the Soviet Union under Josef Stalin and Europe's colonial past in Africa, including Belgium's role in the Congo.

What, no Uncle Joe? It's not a (genocide) party without him! If Belgium doesn't have Stalin on their list, maybe it's because he made any (putative) American death toll look like penny ante stuff. I must resume calling all Belgians, "Flems."

Posted by Zenster 2004-04-09 1:23:39 AM|| 2004-04-09 1:23:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Zen, how about "Phlegms?"

Posted by Seafarious 2004-04-09 1:25:28 AM|| 2004-04-09 1:25:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I ,just loooooooove that guy. He is flaunting the US for something done by the grand-grand-grand parents of presnt generation and that if we forget that the grand-grand-grand parents of many Americans were not in Europe to begin with.

But he has no problem joining with Germany who has genociders still alive and he forgets Belgium's and France's own record in, say Africa and more precisely Rwanda. Somethings who was done by HIS generation. I, for one don't want touch the bloody hands of that guy.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-09 1:33:14 AM|| 2004-04-09 1:33:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 JFM: He is flaunting the US for something done by the grand-grand-grand parents of presnt generation and that if we forget that the grand-grand-grand parents of many Americans were not in Europe to begin with.

Those charges of genocide are BS. Americans did not systematically exterminate the Indians - they diluted Indian blood by marrying them. The ones who chose to stay in the reservations stayed poor (without starving), but most of them left and intermarried with other ethnic groups. Huge numbers of Americans have Indian blood. Anecdotally, the owners of the Indian casinos all look white or black because of intermarriage.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-09 2:00:39 AM|| 2004-04-09 2:00:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Geez, I don't know, but being included on that list is going to give Genocide a bad name. The US did wipe out the Indian tribes with a fairly genocidal brutality...for which many settlers from the Ohio Valley ever westward, were eternally grateful. With things going as badly as they are in Iraq, (Yeah, says the Islamisists about the Japanese girls held hostage, Let's burn them alive..." and the Mehdi's Army), matters may get genocidal there also before they calm down.

Posted by Traveller 2004-04-09 2:11:02 AM|| 2004-04-09 2:11:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Traveller: The US did wipe out the Indian tribes with a fairly genocidal brutality...for which many settlers from the Ohio Valley ever westward, were eternally grateful.

More BS from traveller. The US killed the ones who attacked settlers and resettled the non-violent ones in reservations. No different from what the Chinese are doing in Tibet and East Turkistan today. Unless you consider Chinese colonial ventures genocides as well. By this definition, the Israelis are also committing genocide against the Palestinians. Why do liberals make this stuff up?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-09 2:58:42 AM|| 2004-04-09 2:58:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I thought disease accounted for far more deaths amongst the new world natives than violence did...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-04-09 4:07:35 AM|| 2004-04-09 4:07:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 There's no such thing as a "native" American. God did not create the Indians on this land. We all came here from somewhere else, even the Indians. The difference between us and them is...we have a written history, the Indians do not. Therefore, we don't know about the genocide perpetrated, by the Indians, against those who were here before them.

The law of the jungle is: The land belongs to those who can take it and keep it. Unfortunately, the Indians couldn't KEEP it.

Posted by Halfass Pete 2004-04-09 4:53:09 AM|| 2004-04-09 4:53:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Bulldog, you are correct. Another misconception is that many white settlers were attacked by Native Americans while migrating along the Oregon Trail. Most settlers died of disease exposure ect.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-04-09 5:02:55 AM|| 2004-04-09 5:02:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Well, Bulldog, disease did account for more deaths than gunfire...and that is even discounting the ever present rumor of passing out smallpox infected blankets to the natives.

Still, be that as it may, there were thriving Indian Civilizations all along the Eastern seaboard and deep into the the Ohio Valley. None of this is to mention the plains Indians so often depicted in western movies.

What I find interesting is Zhang Fei's almost reflexive revisionist history. The ethic often was that the only good Indian was a dead Indian and this played out in policy also. I certainly object strenuously to the China's takeover of Tibet and repopulation of Tibet with ethnic Chinese. It is a crime. Maybe even a crime against humanity...but it is more a political takeover and transfer of population than a genocide.

And I know that I'm going to catch some hell for this, but here goes...I cited the decimation of the Indian tribes in greater North America as a positive and necessary event in the development of the United States. They were social systems that could not co-exist, and so through death, assimilation or simple dispersion, one had to cease to be.

Maybe not unlike militant Islam and the West.

And yes I am a Liberal...

Posted by Traveller 2004-04-09 5:10:49 AM|| 2004-04-09 5:10:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Traveller

PLanting nails in the eyes of Tibetan monks was only one of Chinese pasttimes in Tibet.

Also about the Native Indians the Crees had become civilized with elections, news papers until they were cast out by Andrew Jackson.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-09 6:44:34 AM|| 2004-04-09 6:44:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 JMF, you won't catch me defending the Chinese in Tibet...but we're going on 50 years. This is a conquest that won't be reversed, but I think not because of the killing of the native Tibetans, (though of course many were slaughtered), but rather because of the deliberated policy of China to transfer population into Tibet.

And regading the Cree...that's exactly my point. Old Hickory was first and primarily known as an Indian fighter. But the Cree were very civilized, one of the 7 great tibes I think...though my Indian history fails me at the moment.

Posted by Traveller 2004-04-09 7:11:30 AM|| 2004-04-09 7:11:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 This dredging up of past atrocities is pointless and frivolous: ALL Western societies have become progressively more and more "civilized" with the passage of time, and I don't know of any group that can look at it's ancestors' behavior of four or five generations ago without wincing. We simply don't do "those things" anymore- and it's to all our credit that we don't.

The Belgian politicos, like their German and French counterparts, seem to get an inordinate amount of pleasure from bearding us Americans; I suppose it makes for good domestic press.

That's OK with me, and I think we should respond by adjusting to the reality of western continental Europe's unseriousness by leaving them to their amusements. NATO appears rather purposeless today; I say we withdraw from it, or disband it altogether. And along with that, let's withdraw our troops from Germany; God knows, we urgently need them elsewhere.

Perhaps if we do that, European politicians will sober up a bit; and when they do, we can set about the task of forming a partnership that actually has some purpose.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-04-09 7:21:20 AM|| 2004-04-09 7:21:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Traveller, it is an exageration to say there were thriving "civilizations" in most of North American when Europeans arrived. Civilization means cities, codified laws etc. These existed in a few places in Meso and South America, but not in what is now the US.

I recently attended a talk by a Native American historian. In the entire Hudson Valley, there were fewer than 12,000 tribal members. The largest settlements did not exceed 500 people and these were rare.

There is no doubt there were tribal cultures here - but not civilizations. The difference in words is important.

Posted by rkb 2004-04-09 8:25:17 AM|| 2004-04-09 8:25:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Just to follow up on that thought, the villages here practiced small amounts of agriculture in the form of a few crops on rotating fields that were cleared These were not permanent, but were opportunistically cleared as the soil ran out. The bulk of the land that the Europeans cleared and farmed was orignal forest when they arrived.

Posted by rkb 2004-04-09 8:27:31 AM|| 2004-04-09 8:27:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 If the Belians can rip into us for a military victory over the Indians, shouldn't they at least acknowledge their complicity with Hilter's pan-genocidal policies?

I mean after all there were several units of Belgian Nazis who volunteered for the eastern front during WWII and who fought under the SS banner.

Can we not achieve balance by mentioning members of the Belgian SS everytime we yawn?

Posted by badanov 2004-04-09 8:37:24 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-04-09 8:37:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Traveller

My point still remains: why present day Americans should be targetted for the crimes perpetrated by their long-dead ancestors? (And the ancestors of many Americans were still in Europe during the Indian wars). If she is so sensitive about genocide she should question at Belgium making friends with a country who still has former SS alive and kicking, where Schindler was treated as a pariah while former Nazis prospered and reached
the highest positions (cf Hans MArtin Schleyer reaching the head of the entreprenurial council). And if she is so sensitive about genocide she should look at Belgium's own colonialist past (whose brutality was only matched by Germany's) or at Belgium and France's cooperation with the Rwandese genociders in order to preserve their sphere of influence. And as with Germany, the people who took these decisions, the people who weren't and aren't ashamed to have voted for them, are still alive.

Now try to find an American who voted for Andrew Jackson or stretched hands with General Custer. That is the difference.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-09 8:38:38 AM|| 2004-04-09 8:38:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Couple points of note:

>most of this genocide as they claim - occured prior to the U.S. even becoming a nation. We're talking about a lot of things that went on this continent prior to 1776 by Brits, Spaniards, and even some French influence.

>JFM makes a good argument that we are talking about 150 years ago for pete's sake. So what's your point Belgium? JFM/Dave D. are also right -why should present day Americans be ashamed of something they had no dealings in? I do wince when thinking about how the Indians were dealt w/in many ways but like Dave said, we simply are not the same in our understanding or sophistication. I would only suggest that we need to be cognizant of no bs history and ensure it never repeats itself - that is the lesson.

>Also, hw did uncle Joe not make the list? I guess we're quibbling over the meaning of genocide and mass murder of epic proportions.

>I do want to clarify something else - let's be honest, our country's past actions in many instances regarding the Indians were not some of its finest moments. - ZF, yes we did exterminate them. In 1637 we (or actually the first settlers) exterminated the Pequot Indians when we burned their village near Mystic, CT, and shot all the fleeing Indians - to include women and children. I guess Wounded Knee was just a myth as well. Or how about Trail of Tears, which moved about 100,000 Indians, or the other "Indian Removal" programs that began in the 1830s. I can come up w/more but these are just off the top of my head. By 1823 the Cherokees had ratified a written constitution based in large part on our own. Is that not civilized? We can rationalize this shit anyway y'all want but it still comes out the same. Also, supposedly lacking the title *civilized* does not equate being without culture. It also does not rationalize to me that our actions were okay. We broke treaties at the rapid rate and whenever it suited us, it was beneath us to do so and for that we should never forget and never repeat.

>sorry for the long post and lecturing tone - this hit a nerve w/me.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-09 9:06:30 AM|| 2004-04-09 9:06:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 It seems strange that the article doesn't mention anything about the Spanish activities in their part of the Americas. Pizzaro and Cortez were no slackers in the brutal invasion department.

In any case, Belgium makes superb chocolate.

Posted by mrp 2004-04-09 10:39:57 AM|| 2004-04-09 10:39:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Don't be ridiculous. This was nearly five hundred years ago. And key to Cortez success was the fact that everyone was fed up with Aztecs and their gods.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-09 11:22:31 AM|| 2004-04-09 11:22:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 JH--Nice rant! Proud as I am to be an American, we can't gloss over our past. We have come a long way from a fledgling nation where only white male property-owners could vote, blacks were bought and sold, and Indians were considered vermin to be exterminated in order to free up more land. We need to recognize that while moving forward, and I think we've done very well to do so.

Every nation has got skeletons in its closet. It's convenient that Belgium choses to ignore its own and the Soviet Union's. BTW, did they happen to mention Saddam Hussein in the exhibit?

Posted by Dar 2004-04-09 11:57:17 AM|| 2004-04-09 11:57:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Jarhead and Dar, good points of course.

My biggest beef is that the *real* story about European / Indian interaction (which is quite fascinating, I highly recommend reading any original source, such as The Oregon Trail by Francis Parkman Jr.), gets lost when people conflate the facts to ride their own hobbyhorse.

For example, the 100s thousands / millions of Indians from North and South America that died due to new disease introduced by Europeans since 1492 gets conflated with known incidents in the U.S. such as Wounded Knee, the Cherokee Trail of Tears, etc, to become "facts" such as the United States engaged in genocide of millions of Indians, which are accepted by ignorami worldwide .

Posted by Carl in N.H 2004-04-09 12:11:31 PM|| 2004-04-09 12:11:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 By the way, The Oregon Trail paints a great picture of the beginnings of the westward migration in the 1840's. Unlike Hollywood depictions, the largest problem was that Indians would steal horses, supplies, etc, which they did if the opportunity presented itself.

Attacks/killings were rare but occasionally happened.

And, by the way, the various Indian tribes were doing the exact same things to each other...

Posted by Carl in N.H 2004-04-09 12:15:14 PM|| 2004-04-09 12:15:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Carl is right! Read first hand accounts. They are often extremely illuminating, and obviously free of the 'meaning and interpretation' introduced by 'academics', which we refer to as spin when practiced by journalists.

Posted by Phil B 2004-04-09 12:20:28 PM|| 2004-04-09 12:20:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Traveller: What I find interesting is Zhang Fei's almost reflexive revisionist history.

What I find interesting is Traveller's almost reflexive revisionist and *anachronistic* history. Early Americans hanged horse thieves of every breed. McCoy and Hatfield-type conflicts were played out all across the continent in the absence of any law enforcement authority. Some of these conflicts involved Indians.

Indians in North America weren't "civilized". India was a civilization. Ditto China, Persia, Arabia, Britain, France, Vietnam, Japan, et al. Indians in North America had no writing system, were a Stone Age society (not Bronze or Iron Age), and existed in tribes numbering perhaps in the thousands. (Heck, even the Huns and the Mongols were Iron Age societies). They had no large scale engineering projects or even any architecture to talk about - and I'm not referring to adobe huts. If North America had land borders with Asia or even Africa, the Indians would already have been overrun. Period. Europeans just happened to be the first to cross one of the two oceans necessary to reach the Americas.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-09 1:36:15 PM|| 2004-04-09 1:36:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 All arguements aside, conflating everything that happened in North America from the time of Columbus to the present is hardly a slap at the US (although that is no doubt the intent). The US may have really tried to wipe out the indians, but compared to the diseases and what Cortes did in Mexico (also North America) the US just didn't rate.

How many did Leopold kill in the Congo?

Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-09 2:28:11 PM|| 2004-04-09 2:28:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 rupretcht

In Mexico Cortez had to discipline his Tlaxcatecl allies because they wanted to kill Aztec non combatants and/or eat Aztec prisoners.

The Aztecs had sacrified eighty thousand captives to their gods in a prticularly important festivity. Everyone wanted them dead, but Tenochtitlan's position at the center of a lake made it impregnable. That is until the Spaniards came with their firearms, their steel, their discipline and above all their naval techniques who nullified Tenochtitlan's natural advantages
and allowed enemies of the Aztecs to avenge themselves.

And again, both American and Spanish criminals have long been dead while German, French and Belgian ones are alive and happy.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-09 3:08:11 PM|| 2004-04-09 3:08:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 How many did Leopold kill in the Congo?

Never mind that - think of the cannibalism that prevailed in Africa before the arrival of Europeans. How many non-Zulu tribesmen did Chaka-Zulu slaughter while building the Kwa-Zulu empire? What the Europeans did was no different than anyone else had been doing since the beginning of time. The eras change, but quest for empire remained the same. And it was all a matter of possessing and using a fleeting technological advantage - Alexander had his sarissas, Genghis Khan had his compound bows and light cavalry and Europeans had cannon, musketry and vessels capable of crossing oceans.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-09 3:13:39 PM|| 2004-04-09 3:13:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 JFM: The Aztecs had sacrified eighty thousand captives to their gods in a prticularly important festivity.

Actually, this wasn't just a sacrifice - the people sacrificed were actually feasted upon. Think chili, burritos and quesadillas with human meat.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-09 3:16:34 PM|| 2004-04-09 3:16:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I'm Belgian.. This Flahaut guy doesn't have much of support here..

I agree we bear a huge responsibility towards Congo, where we did some awfull things for nothing else then financial gains , but mentioning the Flemish SS garnizons is laughable..It was mostly them dying, not the other way around..

Posted by lyot 2004-04-09 3:30:51 PM|| 2004-04-09 3:30:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 The destruction of the Plains Indians (Arapahoe, Cheyenne, Nez Pierce) was undeniably purposeful and systematic. Railroad interests were behind a lot of it, and it was fomented by our friends in the media--the newspapers ran all kinds of nonsense that scared people have to death, and made the actions taken against the Indians more palatable, even justificable. (Guess who owned the newspapers?) The population, in general, didn't really understand the situation--so I think it's a real stretch to say the American People committed genocide, even though I'm pretty comfortable saying certain elements back then did.

ZF: You may be thinking of the Cherokee and others, especially along the east coast, who did a lot of intermarrying. But that doesn't account for the disappearance of this country's former inhabitants. I also was disappointed that you disallowed the American Indians' civilizations to be given the credit and recognition they merit. The Northern Cheyenne, for example, had an amazing society and culture. ("Oooo and ick" about the Aztecs--thanks for the info, I think . . .! And I thought Secret Window was grisly.)

On the current question: My great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother kicked a dog once.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-09 4:18:20 PM|| 2004-04-09 4:18:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 I'm not arguing that the west is any better or worse than anyone else. My point is the 15 million number is somewhat suspicious since Leopold killed 5 to 15 million link.

I think someone dug back farther and farther until they reached Christopher Columbus, then included Mexico as well, in order to reach that same number. I think this is about someone dealing with his Belgian guilt as much as it has to do with the same person's anti-American outlook.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-09 4:29:18 PM|| 2004-04-09 4:29:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Point taken ruprecht. If true, it brings to mind the efforts some "progressives" made to count enough Afghan civilian deaths until they reached 3000, then screeched about how we (the US, the West, whatever) were no better than the terrorists...

Posted by Carl in N.H 2004-04-09 4:46:36 PM|| 2004-04-09 4:46:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 We Neanderthals find it difficult to get very upset about the things you modern humans do to each other, considering what you did to us...

Posted by snellenr 2004-04-09 4:47:50 PM|| 2004-04-09 4:47:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 if my memory serves me right, the Ministery of Defense got her information from some famous Jewish professor, who wrote a standard work on genocide..

Posted by Anonymous4107 2004-04-09 4:47:53 PM|| 2004-04-09 4:47:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 On the current question: My great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother kicked a dog once.

I got 3 goldies and two mixes that want Justice and or Cash! No cheap treats! No cheap treats! No cheap treats.

Posted by Shipman 2004-04-09 5:00:51 PM|| 2004-04-09 5:00:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Shipman...you...you...you...dog hater!!! I will sic PETA on you!!

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-09 7:08:11 PM|| 2004-04-09 7:08:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Oops, that was for ex-lib. But you too Shipman!! I'm watching you! Take care of those goldies and mixes, or else...

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-09 7:10:29 PM|| 2004-04-09 7:10:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Muck, help me out here.

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-09 7:10:55 PM|| 2004-04-09 7:10:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 What the heck, time to chime in.

ZF- the "native Americans" did have some large constuctions, albeit of dirt. Throughout the Midwest there are substantial Indian mounds and artifacts. There were "cities" of 30,000 when London was a hovel on the Thames. Yes, there was nothing beyond a stone-age technology.

In rates of hundreds of thousands of slaughtered per year, I think that the killing fields of Cambodia must be right near the top. Yet another socialistic dream proves itself to be a real nightmare.

Jarhead, I hear you and yet cannot really lose much sleep. Who knows how many times and how many millions the native Americans slaughtered of each other?

Posted by Craig 2004-04-09 7:44:33 PM|| 2004-04-09 7:44:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Craig, I don't expect anyone to lose any sleep. Certainly not over things that occured 150+ years ago. I'm merely pointing out that we should never gloss over our past. Let's just tell it like it is and not repeat the mistakes. As for Indians waging war on each other - sure that happened a lot - and they were particularly brutal to each other, mostly it was over hunting/fishing grounds; a different type of land grab if you will.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-09 8:57:47 PM|| 2004-04-09 8:57:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Jarhead,
Thanks, you have a good point and are reasonable to discussion. Thankfully we are in a country where we do debate about and learn from the past. Our strength as a country springs from our many and varied past, both domestic and foreign, the many mistakes we have made and the huge lessons we have gotten from those experiences.

It is no wonder that the ME is mired in hatred and projection of self-inadequacy, they are caught in a decrepit belief that a single "devinely" dictated 1200 year old text is the alpha and omega of all human knowlege and wisdom. While our Belgian (and other Old European) friends seem to be mired in jelousy at our vitality and strength.

Posted by Craig 2004-04-09 9:47:58 PM|| 2004-04-09 9:47:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Shipman: It's probably too late for you to get this message--but, okay, okay--don't get your hackles up. I have an offer. I want peace in my time.

Here's the deal: If you will make your dogs promise not to bite me or hold a grudge, I will cordon off a good bit of land out in Eastern Colorado as a big doggie run, fix it up with a windmill water pump, air-conditioned or heated dog houses, and will provide free dog food for a year. I will also collect rabbits for your dogs to chase for fun, which I, or one of my subordinates, will release several times a day. (Don't tell muck4doo about that one, okay?) I will also provide free transportation for you and/or your dogs. Are we square?

Posted by FED UP 2004-04-10 1:11:51 PM|| 2004-04-10 1:11:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 OOOpsie. The above messge is from ex-lib. (FED UP must have hijacked my computer again.)

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-10 1:13:34 PM|| 2004-04-10 1:13:34 PM|| Front Page Top

00:05 Zenster
22:32 Zenster
22:19 Zenster
13:13 ex-lib
13:11 FED UP
08:19 rich woods
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03:00 Jen
02:39 .com
02:34 .com
02:24 Tresho
01:59 Zenster
01:53 Zenster
01:41 ex-lib
00:42 Lucky
00:39 FED UP
00:11 mojo
23:56 CrazyFool
23:50 OldSpook
23:42 Mr. Davis
23:39 Tibor
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23:33 .com
23:06 Robert Crawford