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2004-06-03 Syria-Lebanon-Iran
Dogs in Iran Hate Moslems, Love Zoroastrians
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-06-03 6:04:36 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Reminds me of what one of my Armenian friends said about what happened when the Shah fell. The first thing the mullahs did was order all the pigs (which were owned by the Armenians) to be slaughtered. What a bunch of primitive idiots.
Posted by virginian 2004-06-03 6:51:55 AM||   2004-06-03 6:51:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Dogs, like most animals, can sense evil. That's why they run from mooslems
Posted by AllahHateMe 2004-06-03 8:35:06 AM||   2004-06-03 8:35:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 You can indoctrinate a child to believe absolutely anything - even against their native *instincts and intuition.

* Yes, I know that this topic is oft debated; chill.
Posted by .com 2004-06-03 9:49:20 AM||   2004-06-03 9:49:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Hmm,if I remember correctly.Ted Bundy got his start torturing animals as a child.Could this be an indication of Mass Psycosis,sounds like it to me.
Posted by Raptor 2004-06-03 9:59:21 AM||   2004-06-03 9:59:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 It's not sensing evil or being able to identify religion. Dogs have senses of smell so acute that by our standards it's like ESP. They can easily identify members of the same family by smell even if they haven't met a member before. They can identify people by diet. And they can identify emotional reaction—friend or foe—simply by sense of smell.
Posted by Dave Schuler  2004-06-03 10:13:53 AM|| [http://www.theglitteringeye.com]  2004-06-03 10:13:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 why should you be cruel to an animal cause its unclean. i dont eat pigs. I cant imagine torturing one, however.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 10:16:26 AM||   2004-06-03 10:16:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Raptor-you have it exactly right.
Posted by jules 187 2004-06-03 10:52:19 AM||   2004-06-03 10:52:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 They can identify people by diet.

Hmmmmm I've always wondered why dawgs always take a liking to me.
Posted by Ronald McDonald 2004-06-03 10:59:39 AM||   2004-06-03 10:59:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 It's hard to get excited about liberating a country of psychopaths who delight in torturing man's best friend. As for viewing dogs as being unclean, have these diaper heads ever checked out a mirror lately? Sick.
Posted by rex 2004-06-03 11:02:45 AM||   2004-06-03 11:02:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 No religion that hates the dog could possibly be true or good.

Nuf said.

Posted by peggy  2004-06-03 11:39:29 AM||   2004-06-03 11:39:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 should we not have defended countries where they eat dogs? Should we give up on our country, where cows, pigs and chickens suffer by the millions every day? Look, every culture has its own things about animals. Im more worried about how they treat humans.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 11:42:00 AM||   2004-06-03 11:42:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Liberalhawk - have you been hanging out with mucky a lot lately?
Posted by Bulldog  2004-06-03 11:45:45 AM||   2004-06-03 11:45:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 "Heaven is by favor; if it were by merit your dog would go in and you would stay out. Of all the creatures ever made [man] is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he is the only one... that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain."
-Twain
Posted by .com 2004-06-03 11:55:49 AM||   2004-06-03 11:55:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 no, bulldog, and im not a vegetarian. But it seems kinda silly for folks who think of the PETAniks as loonies to get their panties in a bunch over Muslim views towards dogs. Reeks to me of "cherry picking" if you will.

Look - there are plenty of muslims who are our allies in this thing - from Karzai, to the Kurds, to the anti-Mullah Iranians, to that sane Italian Imam, - etc. If we're gonna turn away from them cause doggies dont like them, we're not serious about this, and we're gonna lose.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 12:02:47 PM||   2004-06-03 12:02:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Should we not have defended countries where they eat dogs? Should we give up on our country, where cows, pigs and chickens suffer by the millions every day? Look, every culture has its own things about animals. Im more worried about how they treat humans.

We're not talking about killing to eat (survival) we're talking about joy in physical abuse (sadism). All places on earth have people who do this, but what is the overall view of each society? Is our society overall indifferent to animals being kicked?

Re Humans vs doggies-Liberalhawk is right about focusing on the big picture, though. Start with the biggest problems.
Posted by jules 187 2004-06-03 12:29:13 PM||   2004-06-03 12:29:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Remembering last night's Porterhouse, bone shared with my German Shepherd, and Poodle, and reading this story, makes one realize that there is really a superior and inferior view on matters such as this.

True, we must keep sight of the big picture, but if a young girl feels she is kicking a pup with the approval of some so-called holy-man, then there more evidence that there is something systemic wrong with that religion. Why youth violence against animals who would be generally friendly and bond with you is such a tell-tale sign of evil.

The only middle-easterners who I know who were truly fond of dogs are the Christian Lebanese who own the Liquor Store where I buy my Lotto ticket.

I would like to see dog's revenge. In a building in Iran collapsing, a dog rescues Zoroasters, Christians first. The smell of kindness and appreciation. . .


(Images.Google)
Looks a lot like my "Z", but isn't
Posted by BigEd 2004-06-03 1:04:09 PM||   2004-06-03 1:04:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Here's the big picture- we have and will continue to have zero values in common with 75% of Iraqis. We invaded Iraq for startegic positioning, not to liberate peace loving people. The sooner all of us, and especially the WH, gets a realistic and dispassionate view of Iraqis, the sooner we can finish the job there and not stay there on an endless quest of winning over their hearts and minds.

As for being PETA-like...how civilized a culture is how that culture treats its most defenceless members, including animals.

As for the Kurds, because they have their roots historically as shepherds, they were one of the earliest cultures to domesticate dogs - to guard their sheep. The Kuvasz - a Kennel Club breed- was bred by Kurds. A popular working sheep herding/protecting dog for Kurds is the Kangal.
Kurds are not dog-haters, nor are they America-haters. Works for me.

As for the Koreans eating dogs - proves what philosophers say about uncivilized nations.
Posted by rex 2004-06-03 1:05:57 PM||   2004-06-03 1:05:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 The Native Americans (not sure which particular tribe) have a wonderful story. I'm paraphrasing cause I don't have it with me, but at some point in history man learns to think and reason and so the Great Spirit comes and creates a great divide between man and beast. All animals cross over to the 'animal' side. At the last minute, the dog looks at man and jumps back across to stand at his side. Wish I had the actually story with me, I'll have to look it up. But it's absolutely true. Throughout history and pre-history dogs have always been at our side. They protected early man from predators and helped us hunt. Without dogs mankind would probably not have survived during pre-history. One more proof that muslims are fucked in the brain.
Posted by AllahHateMe 2004-06-03 1:20:17 PM||   2004-06-03 1:20:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 If Mohammed was a 'cat man', then that says a lot.

None of it good.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-06-03 1:23:44 PM||   2004-06-03 1:23:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Lh, I wasn't meaning to offend either yourself or mucky. Your preceding post just seemed uncannily... mucky.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-06-03 1:26:37 PM||   2004-06-03 1:26:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 
True, we must keep sight of the big picture, but if a young girl feels she is kicking a pup with the approval of some so-called holy-man

1. there are kids who torture animals here.
2. She didnt cite a holy man, merely the general fact of the animal being unclean. She was apparently being defensive, in the manner of 6 years olds being caught doing something everywhere
3. The major evidence in the article refers to a time when violence to dogs was used as a political weapon against Zorostrians. Analogy to folks here calling for burying jihadis in pig skins - using a local culture against its practitioners
4. Yup, there are plenty of cultures that are not as fond of dogs. Plenty of less aculturated Eastern European Jews, for example.

I continue to look forward to the liberation of Iranian muslims. Faster, please.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 1:39:31 PM||   2004-06-03 1:39:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 also i see no evidence that all muslims do this, as opposed to Iranians. Or anything on how they treat other animals, as compared to how westerners do.

IE what i see is "cherry picking" hunting through every islamic country from Morocco to Indonesia, and looking over hundreds of years, for examples of barbaric behavior to confirm an opinion that muslims are barbarians. Something that when it is done by muslim haters of Christians and Jews we (correctly) denounce.
look, muslims world wide are NOT barbarians. They are heirs to one of the worlds great cultures, and are as individuals often good, and refined, people. Now that great culture stagnated, and that stagnation, and the circumstances of that stagnation, led to a political backwardness that has made it hard to turn things around, and that has handicapped most muslim countries to this day. and has led to true barbarism among a far too large minority of muslims, and excuse making for that barbarism among many more. But muslims ARE NOT barbarians per se, and the belief that they are undermines the very policies that are needed to change the situation. See Rexs view of Bush policies in Iraq as a case in point.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 1:47:55 PM||   2004-06-03 1:47:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Kurds are nominally Muslims, #18, but the saving grace[IMHO]is that Kurds take their Muslim religion "lightly." In fact, Kurds identify more with Zoroastrians. Interesting in light of the article under discussian. For further information:
http://www.itnet.org/kurds_islam.html
"The Kurds and Islam"
...many Kurds still feel some connection with the ancient Zoroastrian faith, and feel it is an original Kurdish spirituality that far predates the seventh century AD arrival of Muhammad...Mystical practices and participation in Sufi orders are also widespread among Kurds. Many of these orders are considered heretical by rigid orthodox Muslims. Drawing heavily on shamanism, Zoroastrianism and elements of Christianity, Kurdish mysticism places emphasis on the direct experience of God through meditation, ecstatic experiences and the intercession of holy men or sheiks...
Posted by rex 2004-06-03 1:49:20 PM||   2004-06-03 1:49:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Libhawk, there is a general "consensus" in the Arab world that dogs are bad and cats are good because of what Mohammed did as recorded in the Koran.
And while it's chic for Leftists like you to carry the Muslims water and pretend they're just as "cultured" as Westerners, they're not.
That's why we have this War.
Many of their laws under shari'a and their practices ARE barbaric--chopping off people's hands for stealing, beheading their "enemies" in public, treating women like property, ad infinitum--based on tribal Bedoin life and "laws" formulated for the 7th Century desert.
Even their goal of world conquest is barbaric and not a system designed to cope with a 21st-Century interconnected and populous globe.
Mohammed wanted his tribe to "take over the world" so that they could have the best watering holes and grass for their goats in the Arabian peninsula.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 1:54:37 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 1:54:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 rex - sounds like youre describing sufism, which is widespread in the muslim world, not just among Kurds.
Jen - there may well be a consensus that dogs are bad - thats hardly barabarism or torture. Yes there are barbaric practices in historic Islam - as there were in the medieval west - yet the same era that gave us the inquisition, the rack, the auto da fe, also gave us towering cathedrals, amazing music, and beautiful poetry - if you look not at the texts based on 7th c life,but on how muslim states actually existed from the 9th to the 16th century, you see one of the world great civilizations. The challenge for muslims is adapting to the modern world, and so renewing their civilization. Bernard Lewis documents how difficult this has been. Unfortunately the attempt to adapt was hijacked in the middle of the century by muslims who followed the worst of the Wests exports - socialism and fascism. We are fighting not against Islam, but against the hijacking of Islam by those who would take it backwards, with an ideology based on muslim fundamentalism, but with a death seeking ethos rooted in western fascism. President Bush (apparently) correctly recognizes this. Too many on the left do not. I wish Bush well in his struggle to reform the Islamic civilization, and despair of what will happen to that project should the left triumph.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 2:08:42 PM||   2004-06-03 2:08:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#26  This is the great challenge of our time, the storm in which we fly. History is once again witnessing a great clash. This is not a clash of civilizations. The civilization of Islam, with its humane traditions of learning and tolerance, has no place for this violent sect of killers and aspiring tyrants. This is not a clash of religions. The faith of Islam teaches moral responsibility that enobles men and women, and forbids the shedding of innocent blood. Instead, this is a clash of political visions.

this is eloquent, and true. I suppose im a chic leftist for beleiving it.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 2:11:40 PM||   2004-06-03 2:11:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 My view is realistic, albeit not politically correct, to liberals and compassionate conservatives.

I do not share the latter's infatuation with Iraqis nor do I believe in all the excuses made for their country's failure. ..if only it wasn't for Saddam, if only it wasn't for the poverty, if only only they had democracy, if only ...Not all cultures are of equal value. End of story.

We need Iraq for geo-political reasons. That does not mean we should trust them or like them or expect them to transform themselves into a facsimile version of ourselves.
Posted by rex 2004-06-03 2:11:48 PM||   2004-06-03 2:11:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I had some considerable experience with, as David mentioned, the largest nation in the Muslim world, spending three years there, three years in Indonesia as the U.S. Ambassador to that country. I know what tolerant people the most of those 200 million Muslims in Indonesia are. And I believe that, in fact, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who really aspired to, but to what we enjoy, freedom and the prosperity that freedom engenders
I had some considerable experience with, as David mentioned, the largest nation in the Muslim world, spending three years there, three years in Indonesia as the U.S. Ambassador to that country. I know what tolerant people the most of those 200 million Muslims in Indonesia are. And I believe that, in fact, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who really aspired to, but to what we enjoy, freedom and the prosperity that freedom engenders

I suppose admiring this mans views makes me a chic leftist, despite every chic leftist I know despising this man.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 2:16:07 PM||   2004-06-03 2:16:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I had some considerable experience with, as David mentioned, the largest nation in the Muslim world, spending three years there, three years in Indonesia as the U.S. Ambassador to that country. I know what tolerant people the most of those 200 million Muslims in Indonesia are. And I believe that, in fact, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who really aspired to, but to what we enjoy, freedom and the prosperity that freedom engenders
I had some considerable experience with, as David mentioned, the largest nation in the Muslim world, spending three years there, three years in Indonesia as the U.S. Ambassador to that country. I know what tolerant people the most of those 200 million Muslims in Indonesia are. And I believe that, in fact, there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who really aspired to, but to what we enjoy, freedom and the prosperity that freedom engenders

I suppose admiring this mans views makes me a chic leftist, despite every chic leftist I know despising this man.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 2:16:11 PM||   2004-06-03 2:16:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Liberalhawk,if you despair of what will happen should the Left triumph, then quit helping them by carrying their water!
I think the jury's still out as to whether the barbarism and primitive thinking is confined to just radical Islamism or is true of Islam as a whole.
The Koran doesn't address democracy, but pushes some government by the people ("ulema") which no modern Muslim ruler has ever implemented.
Apparently, they believe it's Allan's will that some rule and others obey and that the status quo shouldn't be questioned.
The idea that all people (men AND WOMEN) have equal rights given to them by God is not really in their world view.
Our Enlightenment brought this idea to the West in the 18th Century!
Islam is against the charging of interest which they say is "Jewish" and which obviates capitalism.
The West, under Christianity, did make mistakes...1,000 YEARS AGO and we learned from those mistakes!
(It would be as if Spain was still having the Inquisition and America kept the Salem witch trials, if we were like the Arab world.)
The Muslim views about women are absolutely medieval--they don't want women to vote because they say their judgement is impaired by menstruation!
Islam is the very definition of Insanity=doing the same thing over and over and getting the same bad result.
That's a big part of what we're doing over there now--teaching the old Muslim dog some new "tricks" about how to live free in the modern world.
And the Arab world hasn't had more than a few accomplishments in art, literature, science, math and medicine in a long, long, long time.
Ask around.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 2:21:49 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 2:21:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Liberalhawk says: ". . .what i see is "cherry picking" hunting through every islamic country from Morocco to Indonesia, and looking over hundreds of years, for examples of barbaric behavior to confirm an opinion that muslims are barbarians . . ."

Yep. That's what we do here at Rantburg. And we have to look far and wide for those "juicy" little tidbits of anti-Islamic propganda, I tell ya--because most of our "lookin' has to do with things those Moslems did hundreds of years ago. It's a campaign! A dirty campaign against our peaceful Moslem neighbors. It's nothin' more than a witchhunt, and we should be ashamed of ourselves suggesting that Moslems are "barbaric." They drive cars. Hell, they even have video and such. I saw it myself--when Perlman and Berg were put through the Moslem penal system. Their system of govronment is jist a little diff'rent, is all. Why most of them A-rabs are just good, decent, "down home" folk. It's the radicals among 'em that are makin' all the trouble . . . the radicals--who hate dogs, who consider Jews dogs, who rape little boys and girls, who blow up thousands of civilians (especially Jews), who state intentions of world domination, who practice "honor" killings, who subjugate women, who ruthlessly persecute anyone different from themselves, especially Jews, who have organized into terror units to carry out armed attacks against civilization . . . but they're really pretty much like them Nazis were--a misunderstood lot--with a proud heritage and culture that we shouldn't overlook. Though stagnated, Arabia will rise again! All this talk of a "War on Terror." It's jist not worthy of our time. And our nit-picky investigations--we should stop 'em. Besides, the kooks on Rantburg like to lump everyone together. Yep. "All Moslems are bad Moslems." That's what they say.

Liberalhawk: Are you for real today? No one thinks all Moslems are barbarians. Maybe you're afraid that the Jews are next? What gives? We are concerned about that "far too large minority of muslims, and the excuse making" (as you put it) that goes on, as the Islamofascists use barbaric attacks, as well as other tactics, aimed at realizing their goals of destruction and world domination. I don't think you understand Islam at all. The average "Moslem" is only nominally so, and the good things about them come from a culture that pre-dates Islam.

Hey Bulldog: Shut-up about cats! People who don't like cats are insecure and uneducated (about cats). Like dogs, cats are awesome. Unlike dogs, they are more self-sufficient.

Jen: What is the connection between Moe-HAM-mud and cats?



Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-03 2:37:07 PM||   2004-06-03 2:37:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 ex-lib, apparently, Mohammed talked about his cats in the Koran so ever since then "cats are good" has been the rule in the Moslem world.
I think they connect dogs with being scavengers and think they're all mongrels and "jackals" or something.
Clearly, they need to go to some top flight dog shows here!
I'm sure you've noticed, that when they insult each other, one of the first things they'll call their enemy is "dog" right after "pig."
(Excellent whaling on Lh! He's channelling Maureen Dowd today!)
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 2:43:13 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 2:43:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 jen - im not carry the lefts water, im defending the point of view of this admin.

and no the nazis didnt have a great culture, but the Germans did. Auschwitz, and Martin Luthers antisemitism, dont cancel out Beethoven or Bach or Mozart or Goethe. Similarly the muslims DO have a great culture. How big is the problem among muslims? Id say its very big - about 10 - 20% of muslims are willing to support killing of all kaffirs. And probably another 50%, while not that bad, take a "we muslims are all victims of imperialism" stance, which is dysfunctional. But many do not. And i will not charecterize a group, or a great civilization, that way.

ex-lib - no, that kind of cherry picking is NOT what we usually do here at Rantburg. Its the specialty of LGF, where they do it very well. RB is where we actually delve into the operational and strategic details of the WOT.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 2:52:21 PM||   2004-06-03 2:52:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Apparently, they believe it's Allah's will that some rule and others obey and that the status quo shouldn't be questioned

"render unto caesar..."

BTW, Dowd is an idiot. Im not channeling anyone other than Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Austin Bay, Amir Taheri or other supporters of this administration.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 2:55:55 PM||   2004-06-03 2:55:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Â "jen - im not carry the lefts water, im defending the point of view of this admin. "
NO. You're not.
You're defending your POV and coincidentally (?) that of the Liberal Left.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 2:57:58 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 2:57:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Libhawk, you're bordering on being truly evil to me, to quote and twist scripture.
The whole crux of Christianity is CHOICE.
You have to choose to accept Christ to enjoy eternal life.
The same is true of the whole Bible and God's relationship with Man, hence the reason Eve had to CHOOSE to eat the apple from the Tree of Life and thus choose sin.
Individual choice and freedom to choose are the bedrock of Judaism and Christianity.
The belief that everything is the "Will of Allah" is quite a different thing.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 3:05:28 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 3:05:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 jen, do you actually know the sources of the two lefty quotes above?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:06:39 PM||   2004-06-03 3:06:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 This is a clash of political visions.
Believing this doesn't make you a chic leftist, liberalhawk. Perhaps hopeful or naive. I think you hold to the idea because it is important to you not to be biased. With this belief, you have a manageable problem to be solved.

But for me, believing it is wishful thinking. One example of how you can't make it work: sharia law. Imposing sharia law and not imposing sharia law cannot exist in the same place and time. And the ideas behind different systems of law are not equally valuable. In a huge effort not carry biases against others, we cannot alter facts to fit our philosophy. We have to adjust philosophy to match the facts.
Posted by jules 187 2004-06-03 3:07:22 PM||   2004-06-03 3:07:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 jen - in traditional judaism the line is "Everything is in the hands of G-d, except the fear of G-d" theres only ONE choice, and after that everything is submission. It took a lot of reinterpretation to make that fit democracy, and a few people still havent gotten there to this day.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:08:36 PM||   2004-06-03 3:08:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Liberalhawk -...if a young girl feels she is kicking a pup with the approval of some so-called holy-man
Approval does not mean she was personally told, the fact that she said dogs were "unclean" had to come from somewhere, directly from some whacked Imam or her parents. Approval was what she was seeking by abusing the pup. How she came to that conclusion. . . .
Posted by BigEd 2004-06-03 3:08:56 PM||   2004-06-03 3:08:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 jules - uh, you can believe in sharia as binding on yourself, but not appropriate for the State. as i believe about Jewish halacha. Or you can beleive in applying only certain portions of Sharia, as is now the case in Israel wrt to BOTH halacha AND Sharia.
Big ed - yeah i know she got the idea of the dog being unclean from an imam. SO what. My daughter KNOWS that pigs are unclean, from me and our rabbi. If she used that as exuse to kick a pig, that would be her own childish self. Now maybe Islam spends less time telling children not to torture animals, than ours does, but i dont see much difference there, since my daughter and myself routinely eat the meat of cows and chickens raised in far worse conditions than most dogs in muslim countries undergo.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:13:28 PM||   2004-06-03 3:13:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 evidently no one here recognizes the quotes in 28 and 29.

Im so sorry for your cognitive dissonance. Its a real pain when somebody you like very much, who you think is a great political leader, holds opinions on one subject that are diametrically opposite to your own, isnt it? But pretending that said political leader doesnt believe what he says is a foolish way to deal with it.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:16:35 PM||   2004-06-03 3:16:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Libhawk, the Jewish faith has been blessed to have brilliant scholars with inquiring (and dare I say ARGUING?) minds.
Hence the word "Talmudic" to refer to expostulations on the true meaning of the Pentateuch and in the general population, of anything.
Islam has no such scholars or scholarship, which is part of their problem and why they've had no "Reformation" like Jews and Christians.
Apparently, they don't argue about the meaning of Allah's word and dictates as found in the Koran, they mainly just memorize it.
All of Mohammed's dictates are "gospel" to them, including the hatred of dogs and preference for cats.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 3:21:14 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 3:21:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 jen - in fact they DO argue about the meaning of the koran and hadiths. There are four principle schools of Jurisprudence among the Sunnis, and there are disagreements about specific points of law even within these schools. There are also massive disputes about the legitimacy of sufi mysticism, rationalizing philosophy, etc which are analogous to those among Jews and Christians.

They had no reformation like Luthers, since they had no central church to rebel against. As for a Calvinist reformation, Id say thats pretty spefically a christian thing, having to do with christian issues. Jewish "reformation" happened in the specific context of the Jewish confrontation with modernity. Thats precisely the context in which muslims must change. Derogating their civilization is no more insightful into that process, than derogating jewish civilization is to understanding jewish historical processes.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:28:12 PM||   2004-06-03 3:28:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 oh, and if you want to indicate that 90% or more of ordinary madrassah students just memorize, i can assure you thats true of orthodox judaism as well. The inquiring minds are much fewer and farther between, human nature being what it is. And of course in traditional judaism, even those who chose to question and argue were expected to memorize first. with a text that constantly refers to itself, that has subjects coming up in the oddest places, it would have been impossible otherwise prior to the invention of the computer.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:32:43 PM||   2004-06-03 3:32:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 You can believe in sharia as binding on ourself, but not appropriate for the State....

But do they? Again, you are wishing what is a logical conclusion to you were FACT for another. Anyone care to enlighten me--how many Muslim majority countries are enforcing sharia law on people who prefer to just choose it for themselves?
Posted by jules 187 2004-06-03 3:34:43 PM||   2004-06-03 3:34:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 if by sharia, you mean the whole nine yards, including chopping hands off of thieves and stuff like that, the only ones i can think of are Saudi, Iran, Sudan, and certain states in Nigeria. If you mean imposing muslim family law on MUSLIMS, well most do. So does Israel, by the way. Not my cup of tea, but not necessarily incompatible with democracy.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:38:15 PM||   2004-06-03 3:38:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Liberalhawk, I'll derogate their "civilization" when and if they have one.
So far, there's no sign of Civilization in sight; the Arab world is just a bunch of Taliban-like oil-fueled oligarchies, dictatorships and military juntas with shari'a being used and abused to keep the sheeple in line.
You are most certainly NOT arguing the viewpoint of the Bush Administration so don't pretend that you are!
President Bush doesn't condemn all of Islam but he doesn't have a hernia (unlike you) being the apologist for the goodness of Islam.
What Bush and we GOP mean about tolerating Islam is that it takes its place as just another option of personal faith and belief in a secularized and democratic political system.
This, of course, obviates their dedication to (violent) jihad, the "6th pillar" of Islam and to a government ruled by shari'a and Islamic law.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 3:39:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 3:39:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Not my cup of tea, but not necessarily incompatible with democracy.

But also proof of a clash of religions, civilizations. A political clash is just an untidy consequence.
Posted by jules 187 2004-06-03 3:41:33 PM||   2004-06-03 3:41:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 President Bush doesn't condemn all of Islam but he doesn't have a hernia (unlike you) being the apologist for the goodness of Islam

No, he just ignores this sort of thing. As do most of the posters to this site, I note. I probably should follow their example.

BTW, do you know the sources for the quotes in 28, and 29?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:42:38 PM||   2004-06-03 3:42:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Lh, nope-no source about Indonesia quote, but the Indonesian Muslims have been almost singular in their vocal condemnation of Islamist terrorism and their willingness to be "moderate" Muslims.
President Bush doesn't ignore that "sort of thing,"
He acts as President of all Americans, including American Muslims and he knows his words are being noted by all of the Muslim world and many of the world's 1 billion Muslims.
He expects Americans to be at least smart enough to figure out that there is a vast difference between the secular democratic governments of this planet and particularly that of the USA and that of Islamic theocracies like Saddam's Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan.
Most people have only to look at the burkas and the goon squads of the Islamic religious police "For the Prevention of Vice and the Promotion of Virtue" to know what they're dealing with.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 3:49:50 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 3:49:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 28 is bush, his speech at the air force academy today. 29 is wolfie.

Yes i agree with that about Indonesians. But i dont see how they are less real heirs to islamic civilization than are the Saudis.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 3:55:20 PM||   2004-06-03 3:55:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 I'm tired and tired of arguing with you--I've been without power due to storms here for 2 days and I'm exhausted.
You've completely hijacked this thread about dogs to argue about God-knows-what except that you've always gotta be right about whatever the hell you think you're talking about.
Mazeltov.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 3:58:38 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 3:58:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 it takes two to obsessively argue, jen :)

and the post was a charecterization of muslims. I never veered from that topic.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 4:06:54 PM||   2004-06-03 4:06:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 "...and the post was a charecterization of muslims. I never veered from that topic."
Bullshit.
We all said that it was based on Mohammed's characterization of cats and dogs in the Koran.
You went off on a tear about how "valid" the Muslim beliefs were and how "rich" their culture and I was dumb enough to take you on (erroneously thinking I had the energy) because you're so patently wrong and misguided in your thinking.
The Muslim hatred for dogs is as primitive and poorly thought-out as the rest of their so-called "culture."
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 4:12:16 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 4:12:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 I responded to the following:

"It's hard to get excited about liberating a country of psychopaths who delight in torturing man's best friend. As for viewing dogs as being unclean, have these diaper heads ever checked out a mirror lately? Sick. "

A deliberate and direct attack on the Presidents policies, as i see it.

"#10 No religion that hates the dog could possibly be true or good. "

Perhaps not a direct attack on the Presidents policies, but an unfair charecterization of islam, and not at all reconcilable with Wolfowitzs position.

I said nothing about the validity of their beliefs. If i made political alliances based on my judgement of others religious beliefs, id have damned few allies. Surely you realize that.

as for the richness of their culture, i do suggest you read Bernard Lewis.




Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 4:17:10 PM||   2004-06-03 4:17:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 I have read several of Lewis's books, but I like others, too, like Daniel Pipes, Dore Gold, Stephen Schwartz and Serge Trifovic.
Lewis is more of a scholarly, historical approach which doesn't give me the tools I need to fight the war of the memes in the WOT.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 4:28:41 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 4:28:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
-Mahatma Ghandi
Posted by Rafael 2004-06-03 4:45:37 PM||   2004-06-03 4:45:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 
wanton cruelties on the Moslems’ part
That pretty much sums them up on any subject, doesn't it?
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-06-03 4:56:38 PM||   2004-06-03 4:56:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#60  I responded to the following: "It's hard to get excited about liberating a country of psychopaths who delight in torturing man's best friend. As for viewing dogs as being unclean, have these diaper heads ever checked out a mirror lately? Sick. " A deliberate and direct attack on the Presidents policies, as i see it.

LH, why are you put out that I dared to question the President's view of Iraqis ? Are you suggesting that in order to vote Republican or to be a conservative,one must mindlessly agree with every policy, every viewpoint of the current President; see anything emanating from the WH as being the result of "divine" inspiration?

You bet I disagree with the President's naive and rather optimistic view of Islam. Perhaps it comes from his personal "born again" Christian experience that he chooses to ignore the dysfunction of Islam and instead forgive and put an optimistic spin on the future of Islamic peoples. It's that sort of romantic notion about Islam that will get more of our American GI's killed...ever hopeful, never critical, always looking at Iraq as some sort of greenhouse experiment where with a little TLC, beautiful flowers will bloom out of sand and camel dung.
Posted by rex 2004-06-03 5:22:59 PM||   2004-06-03 5:22:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 "And they can identify emotional reaction—friend or foe—simply by sense of smell."

I knew it. My mailman is hauling packages for Al-Qaeda. And to think I pooh-pooh'd my poor pooch all this time for bad behavior. Will I never learn? She gets a pig ear tonight. Just as soon as I can catch my neighbor's slippery porker.
Posted by Zpaz 2004-06-03 5:53:03 PM||   2004-06-03 5:53:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 58 - kinda culturally limiting there of the old mahatma, no? Y'all may be enthralled with the old mahatma - ive got my reservations.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 5:55:50 PM||   2004-06-03 5:55:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 60 - you certainly have the right to disagree with Bush, though i disagreed with you. I was having trouble with some folks who thought my disagreeing with you showed me to be a "lefty"
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 5:57:13 PM||   2004-06-03 5:57:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Lh, you show yourself to be a Lefty alright, but in many more ways than just your multi-culti embrace of Islam.
For starters, your name begins with "Liberal..."
Classic Liberalism, as it is known, died with LBJ or even FDR and had certainly devolved into Socialism by Clinton.
"Liberalism"=Socialist Marxism=Transnational Progressivism=Communism Lite
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 6:06:14 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 6:06:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 The Muslim hatred for dogs is as primitive and poorly thought-out as the rest of their so-called "culture."

Yes, Jen, especially when you consider a dog I had that died. He was a white boxer that was as "CLEAN" as ANY animal I knew. We even let him sleep on the bed with us. However, we had to adjust the position of his head when he got snoring too loud. He never woke up when we did.

So there Islamofacists : TAKE THAT! The "unclean" boxer-dog that slept on the bed with my wife and me.
Posted by BigEd 2004-06-03 6:07:12 PM||   2004-06-03 6:07:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Thanks for the clarification. Here's the irony...you are lefty when you agree with President Bush's view of Islam and his foreign policy in Iraq...because Bush himself is lefty in some respects. Bush Sr. is an East Coast Republican and Bush Jr. is not too disimilar from his dad.

I think Lawrence Auster says it best in a letter posted June 3/04 in reply to Andrew McCarthy's article in NRO:
With endless apologies for sounding so illiberal, you argue that we are in (or should be in) a war with militant Islam, not a “war on terrorism.” Fine. This is an important point you’re making. But that leads to the “therefore” question: Therefore, what? In the end, after running on at great length, all you say is that we should distinguish between moderate Moslems and radical Moslems and favor the first and marginalize the second. Fine. But what does that mean? What does the war against militant Islam consist of? In fact, in your reliance on “moderate” Islam as the cure for militant Islam, you’re still living in the same liberal escapism that your entire article is supposedly rejecting...The point is that there is no moderate Islam. Yes, there are Moslems who are personally less aggressive, more peaceful, just as there are Communists who are personally affable. But Islam as such stands for jihad, just as Communism as such stands for the expropriation of private property. Which means that the only way Moslems can become truly “moderate” is to cease being Moslems in any real sense...
Posted by rex 2004-06-03 6:21:46 PM||   2004-06-03 6:21:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 You're right, rex.
But while a lot of us hold these beliefs privately, President Bush knows that we're not at the stage to say that publicly yet.
And that perhaps it's not for the President of the United States to say, as powerful as he is or because what he says is so very powerful.
BTW, I dislike the terminology of "Bush Sr. and Jr." and prefer Bush 41 and Bush 43, which is accurate.
Posted by Jen  2004-06-03 6:30:00 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-06-03 6:30:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 rex - The point is that there is no moderate Islam. Yes, there are Moslems who are personally less aggressive, more peaceful. . .

Jen - . . .while a lot of us hold these beliefs privately, President Bush knows that we're not at the stage to say that publicly yet.

This line of thought is a lot deeper than we may realize. I find myself drifting that way. I took computer programming courses from an Egyptian fellow who is type-described well by rex, but guess what? He went to the same Mosque in Orange Co Ca attended by the goat-farmer from Riverside, now FBI-wanted list Adam Gadahn. The leader of that mosque, Siddiqi has said some odd things, in the least. The fellow I knew was a personally decent seeming fellow, but after Gadahn's story came out, how can we know? Even with the ignominious way Gadahn was kicked out of that mosque.
Posted by BigEd 2004-06-03 7:47:49 PM||   2004-06-03 7:47:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 I'm tired and tired of arguing with you--I've been without power due to storms here for 2 days and I'm exhausted.
You've completely hijacked this thread about dogs to argue about God-knows-what except that you've always gotta be right about whatever the hell you think you're talking about.
Mazeltov.

Never stops does it. LH throw away the pork chop.
Posted by Harpi 2004-06-03 7:53:20 PM||   2004-06-03 7:53:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 blimey chaps and ladies we aint RANT'ed for ages > I have just come off holiday . nice to see active healthy discussions . Unfortunately I have nothing too constructive to add as Im jetlagged and drunk ,but glad to see active boards
Posted by MacNails 2004-06-03 8:36:33 PM||   2004-06-03 8:36:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 *sarcasm off
YAAEEEWWWWWN!

ps Could never imagine L/H wearing an multi coloured pullover , swapping yogurt weaving techniques round a campfire whilst watching a missle ruin the sunset :P

told ya i had jet lag :P

nite nite
Posted by MacNails 2004-06-03 8:55:23 PM||   2004-06-03 8:55:23 PM|| Front Page Top

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