Article

2004-06-07 Europe

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Posted by mhw 2004-06-07 11:55:15 AM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The pictures! You shoulda told them about the pictures! The police hauled Erik away for disturbing the protest.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-06-07 12:11:23 PM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 12:11:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Angie

I was thinking about the pictures but they don't cover everything that the text says they cover so I left that out.

Posted by mhw 2004-06-07 12:20:50 PM|| 2004-06-07 12:20:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 David's Medienkritic for some pics.

Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-06-07 12:36:33 PM|| 2004-06-07 12:36:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Fellow Rantburgians-
How widespread do you think this mentality is? If you had to put a percentage on French, German and Russian popular disapproval of US policy, what would it be?

Just wondering what an alternative to isolation might be, since that's where all this anti-Americanism is pushing my non-logical self. Isolationism is out of favor today, but how can we stay engaged with these goofball foriegn societies when they sh*t on the gifts and sacrifices we make and take our money in the next breath. What would isolationism lead to, do you think?

Posted by jules 187 2004-06-07 12:45:33 PM|| 2004-06-07 12:45:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Jules:

On the issue of popular disapproval of the U.S. in Europe, I'd defer to JFM and True German Ally (Rantburg's top agents in weasel-occupied Europe).

What happens if we go isolationist again? Well, the Islamofascists aren't going to observe the ceasefire--they've said it out loud so many times that I've lost count. I take them at their word. If we leave them alone, we get another 9/11 sometime in our future--only worse. Therefore, it is in our own best interests to stay engaged, even if no one else approves.

Posted by Mike 2004-06-07 1:22:31 PM|| 2004-06-07 1:22:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 My wife is from Belgium. Her family are Christian Democrats (the closest you can become to a mainstream Euro equivalent of Republicans). They wrote to thank me for what we did to save Europe in WWI and WWII and that they love America (I know they do since 6 of the 17 grandchildren were born here and 3 of my in-laws were educated here and one still works for a US company). One mentioned that if it hadn't been for America, they would be speaking German instead of Flemish.

However, they said their problem was with Bush not the American people. I had to reply that America is Bush and Bush is America. You can't convienently separate the two (like some kind of John Kerry saddle). And if it wasn't for Bush, you'd be speaking Arabic inside a mosque in Antwerp by now.

It is prevalent and contagious since the Euro socialist politicians use Anti-Americanism, shadowy Anti-Semetism and radical social programs (cradle to grave) to keep the focus off their own corruption, ineptitude and policy dementia. Sort of the way the sheiks and emirs in the Middle East use the Israelis as the boogie man and not their own lack of freedom, liberty and democracy.

It is funny that Reagan freed the Eastern Europeans from Totalitarianism but left the Western ones looking more and more like the old Soviet Union!

Posted by Jack is Back! 2004-06-07 1:23:30 PM|| 2004-06-07 1:23:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 It is funny that Reagan freed the Eastern Europeans from Totalitarianism but left the Western ones looking more and more like the old Soviet Union!

That confirms what my experience way back in 1993 was. I taught English in Latvia and found that the most anti-American colleagues were not from Russia, Latvia, etc., but France, Finland, and Spain...

Posted by jules 187 2004-06-07 2:16:33 PM|| 2004-06-07 2:16:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 My experience with Europeans through the years has been with their militaries (primarily air forces) and, occasionally with their Ministries of Defence and defence industries. These people are not anti-American and, for the most part, seem to view the anti-American elites and the politicians who pander to them about the same way the American military looks at the PC crowd here. The professionals understand the way the world is and are very grateful that there is an America and that she is willing to protect them.

Posted by RWV 2004-06-07 3:19:10 PM|| 2004-06-07 3:19:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 One correction. Although many in Western Europe may look Soviet in outlook, they don't have the spine to back it up. All they can really do is irritate and destroy themselves.

Posted by Yank 2004-06-07 4:27:27 PM|| [politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 4:27:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 I had to reply that America is Bush and Bush is America.

Then, seriously, why do you need the elections?

The attitude that the leader is the nation and the nation is personified in the leader, tends to be attitude of countries like Saddam-era Iraq and current-day North Korea. Not democracies

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 4:42:01 PM|| 2004-06-07 4:42:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 that just plain wrong! leave the vets remeber in peace.

Posted by muck4doo 2004-06-07 4:43:29 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2004-06-07 4:43:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 The attitude that the leader is the nation and the nation is personified in the leader...

Who chooses the leader, Aris? And who does the leader lead, if not the nation which elected him? I'd have thought you'd appreciate the association between an elected leader and his electorate as well as anybody.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-06-07 4:56:57 PM|| 2004-06-07 4:56:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris, that's really a silly question. A leader represents his country. Whether that be a Kimmie-NK, or a Bush-US, the image of the leader is one of the things that personifies the country in others (no doubt this is why some countries don't like us now, yet flocked to us under Clinton). It doesn't matter what what system of government controls the country - and legitimacy is an entirely different debate.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-07 5:20:28 PM|| 2004-06-07 5:20:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 The people choose the leader to lead and thus serve the country. You may feel that a leader does a rotten job in leading and thus serving a country. Thus you may feel that a leader does a disservice to his country. Bush doesn't do the job that Gore would do. And yet America would still be America regardless of whether Bush or Gore led it.

America, as a state, might not *do* the same things, but do you really think that a few hundreds votes difference would change the *nature* of 300 million people?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 5:38:56 PM|| 2004-06-07 5:38:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aargh. I'm really not making myself clear and this time the fault is probably mine.

My point was that the leader doesn't represent a country the same way that a flag does. He is elected to serve it. A member of a family may have been chosen to "represent" a family in an occasion, but to say you have a problem with that member doesn't mean you have a problem the whole of the family.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 5:42:26 PM|| 2004-06-07 5:42:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Bush doesn't do the job that Gore would do, and after seeing Gore go nutso a few weeks back, I'm glad we don't have to see what kind of a job he would have done. America would still be America, but I've always been raised with the belief that one man can make a difference. Maybe not as much as Captain Kirk or Doctor Who or James Bond or other entertainment heroes, but a difference nevertheless - and we have Reagan to thank for showing us that the belief has some validity.

You're right in that a flag does do a good job of representing a country, (for example, I know that whenever I see the blue-white-red pattern of the French from now on, it will probably be getting smaller and smaller as its holders run . . .) but a leader personifies it. The leader is the country in the moment in the same way that the flag is the country in the long run, I suppose. Some leaders may be less faithful, some more, but they are all representative.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-06-07 5:47:18 PM|| 2004-06-07 5:47:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 You seem to be reluctant to support the legitimacy of democratic elections, Aris, so let's try public opinion. For the majority of his premiership, Bush's approval ratings have exceeded 50 %. How are you going to argue with that?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-06-07 5:50:04 PM|| 2004-06-07 5:50:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Bulldog> You seem to be confused. What does legitimacy of elections have to do with anything I said? The way I see it elections didn't have anything to do with choosing someone to "be" the country, they had to do with choosing someone to *govern* it.

That the elections were legitimate, meant that Bush had the right to be the president and so govern it according to the constitution, not to "be" the country. Its laws and its constitution and the people residing in it "are" the country, not any one president.

As for the approval ratings, someone can hopefully still believe the majority of public opinion in a nation to have been wrong without hating that nation. If for example you thought that Clinton was a crook, same as I did, that wouldn't mean that you hated America when its public held a different opinion -- when Clinton's ratings likewise soared.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 5:57:57 PM|| 2004-06-07 5:57:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Aris, you seem to be the one confused here. Determined to persuade yourself, like other America-bashers, that somehow deep down Americans are deceiving themselves in generally supporting Bush. Essentially Bush 'is' the US, whilst President, in that his word is final. With Republicans running the US government, if Bush wants to invade Iraq, America probably will invade Iraq; did invade Iraq; and the public approved. Bush dictates American policy and, for the most part, American public opinion has agreed with him. For me, that's reason enough to dismiss the weaseling "I don't hate America, just Dubya..." statements as fairly disingenuous. I really don't have much more interest in debating what the meaning of "be" is...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-06-07 6:14:10 PM|| 2004-06-07 6:14:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 "Determined to persuade yourself, like other America-bashers, that somehow deep down Americans are deceiving themselves in generally supporting Bush"

Everyone who didn't vote for Bush thinks that the other side made a mistake to support him. Everyone who thinks that it was a mistake to vote for him, thinks that things would be better had someone else been president.

I don't understand this "self-deception" thing you are talking about. I'm talking about choosing the wrong person. I'm talking about people believing that the American public made a mistake.

To hate America you have to hate its *system* or its people, not it's one-time decisions. This utter and complete identification between country and elected leader is something I've never noticed anywhere in Europe, except in the case of Kings and Queens that in fact *don't* really govern, don't really rule anymore --- meaning the exact opposite of what you are talking about and the significance of the president's weight in governance.

I'd argue that the more powerful the official the more important it is to hold him as a sacred figure which it is treasonous to attack. Let the Queen of UK consider herself to be England itself, let the Queen of Denmark call herself "Denmark" if she will, and that's okay because they no longer have any power other than symbolism --- but it'd give me the major creeps if e.g. Karamanlis said "I am Greece and Greece is I".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 6:25:23 PM|| 2004-06-07 6:25:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 to *not* hold him, as a sacred figure, I meant.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 6:25:51 PM|| 2004-06-07 6:25:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 i can;'t wit until the next time they are invaded. Hope i'm alive too see them get their asses handed too them.

Posted by smokeysinse 2004-06-07 6:26:16 PM|| 2004-06-07 6:26:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 "Erik Svane se fait expulser d'une manif anti-bush en chantant un hymne US" (Erik Svane get expelled from an anti-bush demonstration while singing an ameican anthem) Videos :
http://perso.club-internet.fr/aleric/video/eriksvane.AVI
(avi format, seems to require some unknown and mysterious codec to be read properly, perhaps you'll have more luck)
Erik's blog :
http://www.eriksvane.com (bilingual, french/english)

Posted by Anonymous4134 2004-06-07 6:40:27 PM|| 2004-06-07 6:40:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 This utter and complete identification between country and elected leader...

Maybe you take things a little too literally, Aris? The "Bush is America" response to foreigners' attacks on Bush is an attempt to get across the message that most Americans have yet to be convinced that voting in Bush was a mistake. In fact they're likely to think that it is the poor misguided folks attacking Bush who are mistaken ones, or more accurately, misled, ones, spoon-fed a diet of anti-Bush propaganda by hostile governemnts and media. On the whole, I'd agree with that view. Bush is attacked because he personifies an America that many, especially foreign elites, viscerally despise, and would prefer to think of, and portray to others, as somehow being an aberrantion temporarily obscuring a more 'presentable', imagined America that they would prefer existed instead. What the Yanks themselves are trying to say is that Bush in fact does represent the United States, and that they voted for and support him because, like healthy democracies the world over, they got a leader they voted for, and who has for the most part delivered goods they're satisfied with.

If most other countries feel their leaders don't represent them to the same degree as America does its President, that's ... regrettable.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-06-07 6:48:21 PM|| 2004-06-07 6:48:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 "Everyone who didn't vote for Bush thinks that the other side made a mistake to support him." Aris not entirely true. A great many people who didn't vote for Bush still support him. All you Euros hear is the LOUD version of those that didn't vote for him and don't support him. John Kerry has little to offer and with the execption of the Liberal stongholds he will loose most of the states. President Clinton NEVER busted the 50% popular vote but he was still our President. The more the left attacks Bush the stronger his numbers get. That is because they sound less like a 'loyal opposition' and more like a World Communists Party Congress. FYI we don't elect communists to office here and never will.

Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2004-06-07 7:14:57 PM|| 2004-06-07 7:14:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Cyber Sarge is right - count me among those who didn't vote for Bush but support him since 9/11.

Posted by rkb 2004-06-07 7:25:03 PM|| 2004-06-07 7:25:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 rkb> count me among those who didn't vote for Bush but support him since 9/11.

And if you didn't support Bush *before* 9/11, does that mean you didn't support America itself before 9/11?

I don't see it that way -- but you people seem to me to be claiming that this is exactly what it means.

Bulldog> If most other countries feel their leaders don't represent them to the same degree as America does its President, that's ... regrettable.

I *think* that the majority of the populations in most European countries feel that we're hiring our leaders to do a certain job, and we kick them out when we think they are incompetent or unwilling to do it. The leaders are obliged to be loyal to their nations, not the nations to their leaders.

I may be wrong, but that's the general feeling I've gotten from my own country and the few other European nations I've visited. Atleast in Greece nobody would think that to attack the prime minister would be an attack on the whole of Greece --- though I grant you that if a foreigner did it, the whole nationalistic hysteria thing would probably kick in so that it would be quite likely indeed seen as such.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 7:40:40 PM|| 2004-06-07 7:40:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 How widespread do you think this mentality is? If you had to put a percentage on French, German and Russian popular disapproval of US policy, what would it be?

Don't know about French,German or Russian popular disapproval, but in Poland it is at least 50% and probably much higher (based unscientifically on my perusal of Polish forums on the web).

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-07 8:44:02 PM|| 2004-06-07 8:44:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I hate it when Aris has a point.

That America is Bush and Bush is America did come off a little creepy and der fuhrer-esque, in my opinion. But I understand what you mean (I think): I hate it when people say, "Oh, we don't hate Americans, only their government". That's all very well to be said of China or Saddam's Iraq. But in a democracy the government is supposed to be the will of the people expressed through their elected representatives (boneheads though they often are). To first order, the government is the people.

That said, Aris, you're arguing just for the sake of arguing now. Also, as you might know, in many democracies the head of state and head of government are two different people, e.g. as in Britain where the Queen is the head of state and Blair is head of government. The US is a little unusual (thought not unique) in having those two positions combined in one person.

Some countries have an elected Head of State who has almost no power. I've never understood the point of that.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-06-07 8:44:23 PM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com] 2004-06-07 8:44:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 "Some countries have an elected Head of State who has almost no power. I've never understood the point of that."

That's a bit similar to what happens in Greece -- the prime minister is the powerful figure, the president is the Head of State which is also a mere figurehead.

I believe that in Greece this position was created in 1974 because it was the most convenient way to move from the constitutional monarchy of earlier constitutions into a republic -- the largely ceremonial responsibilities of the monarch tranferred to an elected official whose responsibilities would be again largely ceremonial, while the prime minister kept his role largely unchanged.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-07 9:01:54 PM|| 2004-06-07 9:01:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Inexplicably, when I saw a thread with "antiAmerican" in the title and saw 30 responses, I knew Aris was involved.

Aris -- please, take some time away if it will help you get over your problems.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-07 9:12:27 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-06-07 9:12:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Our system is way different Aris. On national issues the Presidents speaks and acts for the whole country. Power over the goverment (taxes and laws) is shared by the two houses of congress and the President. Since Bush is a Republican and both houses of congres are controlled by Republicans he has a lot of political power. However the way things are set up a group of Democrats can stop or delay the republicans from passing a law or sitting a Judge on the Federal bench. It's called majority rules, minority protected.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2004-06-07 9:58:44 PM|| 2004-06-07 9:58:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Aris is right! I didn't vote for Bush as did the MAJORITY of my fellow Americans--the election was stolen by the GOP loaded Supremely incompetenct court--hand picked by the GOP in a maneuver that would embarass a banana republic! This illegitimate government has wasted the Clinton surplus and made the US a pariah state! Loving America means getting rid of these incompetent idiots ex:Condi Rice had "No idea the terrorists would use planes as weapons" Remember the hijacking in Marseilles when they wanted to crash planes into the Eiffel Tower in 1995? But it's all new to her incompetent ass

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:00:20 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:00:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 NMM - a majority of counties were won by Bush, a majority of states was won by Bush, every single recount was won by Bush, and the ELectoral College was won by Bush.

So stop lying to yourself and others.

The only thing embarassing here is your inability to accept reality, and act with honor istead of whining liek a petulatn child that the Fla court and corrup Democrat officials couldn't steal the election for Gore.

YOU LOST. GET OVER IT.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:03:57 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:03:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 So is Tory Thatcherite Bulldog now waving the union Jack behind Tony Blair?!

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:05:52 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:05:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 And to "Jack is Back!" America IS NOT BUSH--the majority did not vote for his dimwitted ass and his fascist agenda. Although with a Belgian wife I bet you can understand "rolling over" to the Nazis

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:08:12 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:08:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 OldSpook a/k/a old fart--the facts are that Gore won the popular vote and Jeb and Cruella DaVille stole the election--alonf with the hand picked Supremely incompetent court

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:10:41 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:10:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 NMM - you are an enemy.

An enemy of western society, and enemy of morals and values that enable western civilzation. An enemy of my country with your aiding, abetting, and comforting the enemies of my Nation and Constitution.

Why do you hate the US so much?

Why have you made yourself a traitor, a seditionist?

Why do you NEVER have anything positive to say - you always tear people down, lie, obfuscate, mist-state facts, make up things, and generally cast aspersions and slurs?

Are you mentally ill? Are you that absorbed with hatred?

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:11:42 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:11:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Thanks NMM

You just showed- you have not facts, just hatred. In other words, not only idd your candidate lose, not only did your socislaist/communist system lose, YOU lose.

Bush WON, Gore LOST. Get Over It.

As for "Old Fart" - cute - you lose the argument so you devolve to grammar school name calling.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:14:08 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:14:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Old Spookie---LOL a majority of states haha Yup Montana, Utah, South Dakota, North Dakota--states that in some cases have less population than NYC--typical Repooplican distortion of the facts--the actual REAL number also known as the popular vote was won by Gore

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:14:36 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:14:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Wrong, NMM!
Even the media concluded after a study of the vote tallies that Gore NEVER had the majority of votes in Florida to win the state.
President Bush won count after count after count and the majority of the electoral votes to win the Oval Office.
That's the law in this country and the Supreme Court upheld the law by a vote of 7-2 (not 5-4 as the Left maintains).
Gov. Jeb Bush and Sec. of State Katherine Harris only did their jobs.
And the Supreme Court--PRAISE JESUS!--stopped the chad counting and the lawsuits of Team Gore.
As far as I'm concerned, it was Al Gore who tried to steal the election and as with everything he does, he was a LOSER.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:16:17 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:16:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 I thought you GOP nutz actually agreed to quit calling Democrats and others that don't agree with you "Communists and Socialists" that's so Reaganesque old Spookie

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:16:42 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:16:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 As for "dimwitted" - your ilk said the same thigns of Reagan.

The guy who took double digit inflation, double digit unemployemnt, and double didgit interest rates results of DEMOCRAT LIBERAL policies, and laid the foundation for the biggest economic expansion in US history.

Same "dimwit" slurs were thrown at Reagan - and by the way, where is your MBA from? Bush got his - not something they give on a "gentleman's C".

Keep dodging NMM. I'll nail your ass to the wall each and every time, until you go crying into your room like the petulant whinging child that you are.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:17:56 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:17:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Jen--it's so cool that you can channel the voices of Lee Atwater and Josel Goebbels--if you repeat a lie it becomes the truth! Sorry but I don't depend on Rush and Fox news for my opinions like you do and you're wrong on all counts

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:19:59 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:19:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 I see you are again trying to turn the argument away from your LACK OF FACTS, and that YOU ARE WRONG, into a name calling contest. Right after **YOU** started the namecalling.

Nice try. Nailed you again - you keep losing and losing and trying the same squirming tricks again and again.

Tell me again who the dimwit is? Looks like its you given that you repeat losing behavior time and again.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:20:32 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:20:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Not lies, NMM--all based on facts and all are a matter of record.
As a matter of fact, where are the links to the facts and reports that sustain your "arguments'" veracity, please?

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:22:04 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:22:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Another lie ~~Mr Goebbels/Rove~~ I mean Spookie-- Bill Clinton gave us prosperity--Bush had to pay back his fat cat supporters and is giving us a huge deficit just like Reagan did and the bill will come due

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:23:18 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:23:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 See - there you go again NMM...

Saying "Goebbels" - an obvious slur. BUt DEVOID of facts.

The FACTS are the BUSH won all the recounts, tha the FLA Supreme court ERRED in ruling that the recounts were to continue, and that BUSH won the vast majority of the the counties, states and such - the only reason Gore got the popular vote was from unthinking bloc voters in urban areas on the coast. BUSH WON THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE - and *THAT* is what the constitution requires.

It is precisely to prevent large urban areas from being the only areas tha matter that our forefathers wisely put the Electoral College system together. It makes the "flyover" country important, and preserves the voice of the nation ourside the metropolitan areas.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:23:59 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:23:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 "I thought you GOP nutz actually agreed to quit calling Democrats and others that don't agree with you "Communists and Socialists" that's so Reaganesque old Spookie."
Reagan was right!
And this GOP "nut" doesn't have a problem in the world with calling a spade, a spade--You are Communists!
And not Socialists so much as Marxists.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:24:39 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:24:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Bring it on Jen--cite the ~~Moonie~~ Washington Times and any Murdoch venue as fact

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:25:14 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:25:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 True about the electoral college OS but the shady manipulations done in Fla will always make thinking minds question the legitimacy of this government

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:28:05 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:28:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Read and learn NMM:

Regan's deficeit won the cold war - were you not paying attention? What price coudl you set on the defeat of the Evil Empire - communism and the Soviet Union - and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?

Hmm?

Clinton spent the peace dividends, and now we are paying the price for cutting too deeply, just like we did under Carter.

Wars cost money. So we are spending to conduct a war - probably not spending enough. Because in a war, you have time, blood and money - and the less of any of those you have, the more of the others you require.

I'd opt for spending money, you apparently would opt for spending blood.

And as for the slurs - mind if I call you Stalin? or Fidel?

And FYI - Clinton caused the 2000 recession and the stock market was collapsing right as he was leaving office - and Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing and other huge thefts and collapses happened on Clinton's time.

And keep name-calling - it shows how weak your arguments are.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:29:34 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:29:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 And Jen--OMG Democrats = Marxists?! Where in the Hell do you get that conclusion? If that's the case then GOP = Nazis

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:30:03 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:30:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Yup OS--Bill Clinton was raking in the contributions from "Kenny Boy" because Enron was a major player and political donor to the Democrats in Arkansas!

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:32:43 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:32:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 The shady things done in Florida were all done by DEMOCRAT election officials. Didnt you notice that? They messed up the ballots, they miscounted, they were the ones that spolied many ballots.

It was a Democrat stronghold down in Palm Beach that messed thigns up. And there is research indicating that the "early call" of Florida for Gore by the networks may have caused several thousand "lost votes" for Republicans in the Panhandle area - more than enough to have made the recounts a moot issue.

Have some class - even Nixon didn't whine and carry on about the Daley machine stealing Illinois for Kennedy (or the Johnson machine in Texas).

Are you meaning to demonstrate that you don't even have as much class as Richard Nixon? You are doing a rahter good job of it.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:33:39 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:33:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Go to smokinggun.com and you can see actual handwritten notes from the governor of TX to Ken Lay--talk about a paper trail

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:33:51 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:33:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 OS--are you comparing me to Nixon? That must be a compliment coming from a right wing nut

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:35:56 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:35:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Enron was in bed with Bill Clintoon, Al Gore (and their Kyoto Treaty which pushed Enron's natural gas resources) and CA Gov. GrayOut Davis!

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:36:32 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:36:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 And by the way it's the Democratic Party, not the Democrat party as you GOP losers try to re-name it

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:37:13 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:37:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Far "Moore" Marxists in the Dem party than "Nazis" in the Repub.

Remember - Nazis were SOCIALISTS at least in name. The National Socialists Party.

And you are dragging things off topic again.

As for Enron - Clinton was a beneficiary of campaign contributions from Enron - the paper trail is there too. And why was Enron able to get away with it under Clinton but BUSTED under Bush?

And as for an even larger scandal - go explore Global Crossings massive fraud and bankruptcy - topped only by GC's contributions to Democrat party and its candidates.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:37:42 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:37:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Jen--the facts are Enron was/is a Texas co that contributed heavily to Bush--so stop your lying

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:39:08 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:39:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Again, OS it's the Democratic Party--I refuse your Repooplican nomenclature

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:40:42 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:40:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 GOP Losers?

Nope - Democrat Losers. You Lost. Get Over It.

As for Democrat - the Democrat Party is hardly "democratic" any more. Its socialist leaning fringe has come to dominate it - that and its driven only by hatred of Bush, religion, and truly representative government (preferring using the courts to create laws).

Its a party devoid of ideas and ideals, driven by hatred, distorted by its own sneering and arrogance.

You are a perfect example.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:40:59 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:40:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 NMM, you Marxist Che Guevara-worshipping asshat, people can Google it for themselves!
I don't have to give you chapter and verse about the GORE COUP ATTEMPT (a/k/a Election controversy 2000), I lived it!!!
And I want those 35 days back, when Owlie Bore held this entire country and the world hostage because his daddy told him he should be president!

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:41:23 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:41:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Another GOP lie--Bush got more money from Enron than anyone else--invited him to the Governor's mansion to squeeze more outta him

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:42:06 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:42:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Putting it in panic mode a little early aren't you Mike? Five months to November, so pace yourself, okay?
You can jump off a bridge then when you lose.

Posted by tu3031 2004-06-07 11:42:07 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:42:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 NMM - here's a clue, and I'm not even going to charge you for it.

I liked Kennedy.

I liked his Ideals.

Thats why I voted for Reagan, and voted Republican. Because people like you have forced the Democratic Party away from those ideals.

You should be ashamed, had you enough integrity and intelligence to recognize just how wrong you are.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:43:54 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:43:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 would be happy to preserve that moment for posterity tho' NMM - you name the date/time/bridge, and I'll post the video on RB, Fred's bandwidth permitting. I may need to EFL and news

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-07 11:44:05 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:44:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 Jen you Third Reich, Hitler worshipping jingoist scheisskopf you will lose this November -- the American people are waking up and know how they have been lied to

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:44:50 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:44:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 now that wasn't nice, informative, clever, or useful. Troll

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-07 11:45:50 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:45:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 You should be ashamed OS if you liked Kennedy to jump on this riight wing nut bandwagon which uses religion as a weapon and a wedge issue

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:46:29 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:46:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 NMM- meet sinktrap

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-07 11:46:59 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:46:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Frank G--you're the troll--you weren't involved in this discussion

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:47:38 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:47:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 The American People woke up in the 1908's - Regan reminded us its Morning in America, and that you and your ilk were lying to us.

Tax cuts are bad. Nope - they worked just fine.

Confronting the Soviets would cause a war. Nope - they bakced down.

Financing Star Wars research would trigger a nuclear arms race. Nope - it generated the first and largest arms REDUCTION in the history of the Cold War.

Deficiet spending would destroy the country: Nope, it enable the nation to build its military, and do so woithout taxing to the point of killing businesses.

Need me to recite MORE ways you on the left were wrong?

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:48:06 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:48:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 the actual REAL number also known as the popular vote was won by Gore

And the question still remains....so f***ing what??? Is there a point you were trying to make?

Posted by Rafael 2004-06-07 11:48:20 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:48:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 Old Spook, tu3031 and Frank, isn't this hilarious?!
One of the reasons I love President Bush and President Reagan is that their strong leadership, their stand for traditional American values and their Conservatism always turns the Left into feces-flinging howler monkeys!
When President Bush is reelected in November, will you closet Communists finally make good on your threats to expatriate to (Islamist Occupied) France?

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:48:20 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:48:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 Now Frank G chimes in to prove my point about dumbass posts on Rantburg

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:48:33 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:48:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 C'mon Mike, be nice. Frank wants to make you famous. Have your people call his people.

Posted by tu3031 2004-06-07 11:49:39 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:49:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 do I need an invite to a troll-bashing? Asswipe? LOL

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-07 11:50:03 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:50:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Jen--when I was in France last year--it is an obviously Catholic country--like 90+% but I bet you right wing Chrisitan Coalition types don't like Catholics too much either

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:51:00 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:51:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Catholic here, troll, which if you really followed this site, rather than trolling, you would've read, it's not been a secret...what's up? Mom left the computer on and you haven't taken your meds? Ritalin refill?

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-07 11:52:43 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:52:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 You go Frank G--call me names! Make me write bad checks! Compensate for your lack of masculinity!

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:52:44 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:52:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 Rafael, don't forget that RICHARD NIXON won the popular vote in 1960, too.
So f***ing what about Al Bore is right, NMM!
And the 2000 popular vote isn't connected to any purported ties that Governor George Bush had to Enron
(BTW, they've given President Bush's finances--and Dick Cheney's too re: Halliburton-- about 8 colo-rectal exams when he ran for President.
No "there" there.)
You pinkos need to get a life!

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:53:08 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:53:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 nite all! Unlike NMM I have a job to go to tomorrow....

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-07 11:53:32 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:53:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 Aris, You said: This utter and complete identification between country and elected leader is something I've never noticed anywhere in Europe, except in the case of Kings and Queens that in fact *don't* really govern, don't really rule anymore --- meaning the exact opposite of what you are talking about and the significance of the president's weight in governance.

This is more revealing than you think. Your point of reference is a parliamentarian system. The US IS NOT ONE and DOES NOT HAVE THIS TRADITION. The US president is an elected Caesar! The Senate sort of maps into Rome's. The house maps to demographic support. The civil service is copied from 1777 Chinese type.

So BUSH is more powerful than your PMs or Kings. He is Caesar for a time.

Posted by 3dc 2004-06-07 11:54:06 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:54:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 Everybody down! I think his head's gonna explode!!!

Posted by tu3031 2004-06-07 11:54:50 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:54:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 Jen--not a pinko--I prefer blue--you need to realize it's a new millennium and the old, tired GOP rhetoric only works on morons like yourself

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:54:52 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:54:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 NMM, "we" Right Wingers love Catholics--hence the close relationships the Pope has with both President Bush and President Reagan.
I've lived in France myself and while the French profess to be nominal Catholics, they never go to mass and couldn't tell you what they believe about their faith.
The temple of Mammon would be a more appropriate place for them, although they'll all be forced to become dhimmi under Allan's benign shari'a soon.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-07 11:56:56 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-07 11:56:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 3dc He's more like Nero--fiddling while Rome burns and we become a pariah state

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:57:15 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:57:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 NMM - Kennedy's platform sounds just liek Reagan in 1984 and Bush now.

Learn it, know it, live it.

"the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."

[NMM - there's teh G word - Kennedy believed in God, as do I, and was a Catholic, as am I]

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

[NMM -you dont oppose our foes, you rfuse to bear the burdens of Liberty, you don't support our friends - as a matter of fact, you are against EVERYTHING Kennedy said here!]

" We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed."

[Military strength is a prerequisite to peace - as know by Washington: If you desire peace, prepare for war" (Originally Cicero I think) - NMM - where is your support for a larger, stronger military?]

"All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin."

[Dont expect or ask for instant results - unlike you and your bunch]

" In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibilityâI welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve itâand the glow from that fire can truly light the world."

[In other words dont shirk our duty to Liberty as a nation, stand up and fight for what is right]

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for youâask what you can do for your country.

[I sacrificed years of my life in service to my nation - NMM, what have you ever done?]

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."

[Indeed! Why have the Euro-socialists not stepped up to promote freedom, instead of letting places like Rwanda, Sudan/Darfu, and Iraq fester]

And remember - Kennedy Cut Taxes - saying "A rising Tide lifst all boats".

To clos e- as Kennedy did:

With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

NMM - Are you truly able to say and do the things you do in good conscience? Are you forsaking other rewards than a good conscience?

Are you doing God's work here as Kennedy said we should?

Seems you are opposing ALL the points John F Kennedy made.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-07 11:58:33 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:58:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 Hmm and Mammon would be more appropriate to which political party here?

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-07 11:59:27 PM|| 2004-06-07 11:59:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 Another GOP bullshit attack--the Democrats don't support the military....Not true--we just don't want to send them to Iraq for oil to die and enrich Halliburton and the den of thieves in Texas that put this moron in the White House

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-08 12:04:09 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:04:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#93 Mammon?

Easy. The Democrat Party.

Republican money has come from far more people and in far smaller "packets" than Dems.

On the other hand, you have Moveon.org, the Heinz Foundation, and Soros (a multibillionaire) trying to subvert the election process with money - some of it questionable in origin (foreign donors possibly), and possibly illegal (in violation of McCain Feingold).

Mammon fits the Democrats quite well. Thanks for bringing that up.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-08 12:04:13 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:04:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#94 Gee, I dunno, NMM--the party of the Grifters, the party that aids the ACLU in persecuting Christians and Christianity in this country (Catholic and Protestant) and promotes atheism, the party of Pork and big government handouts, the party that relies on foreign currency speculator and billionaire George Soros as its "patron"...which would be the DEMOCRAT PARTY.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-08 12:05:31 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-08 12:05:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#95 OH OS that is too damn funny--do you REALLY believe that the Democratic party is the party of wealth? Just look at the total $$ volume raised

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-08 12:06:11 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:06:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#96 Dems support the military?

Not so - Look at Kerry's voting record - against EVERY major weapon system and funding bill that was critical to the systems we have now. Dems lead the charge to cut intelligence spending - even spending the Clinton asked for!

The opposition to almost all military spending comes from the Dem side of the aisle.

Sorry - your excuse making for the Dems washes about as well as your excuse making for Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists of Al Qaeda.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-08 12:06:57 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:06:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#97 I'm like Frank. I gotta work in the morning. Since Mike is now at the nobloodforoilhalliburtondenofthievesbushisamoron stage I figure he reaches critical mass about 12:35 EST.
Let me know tomorrow if I was right.

Posted by tu3031 2004-06-08 12:09:28 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:09:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#98 Once again, Jen it's the Democratic party and the Wall St interests and the Christian loons own the Repooplicans--but I digress, unlike you rich GOP operatives who stay home and collect dividends I have to work tomorrow--enjoyed the discussion--nite OS & Jen

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2004-06-08 12:10:04 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:10:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#99 Yes NMM - the Republican raise more money - becauyse they have FAR MORE people at the grass roots level contributing. The Dems are dependant upon the rich whocan give big chunks, and collectivist organizations. Both of whom have been chopped a bit by McCain Feingold.

Go look it up.

Know how I know?

Because the grass roots campaign where I live is very active. We call or email every week, from veterans liek me, postal owrkers, clerks, waitresses, and other regualr working people =- get collections of $25 donations and feed them up the food chain.

And its like that in many places all over the nation. The only reason you dont know it is that you refuse to see it.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-08 12:10:33 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:10:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#100 Not Mike Moore..
I was pointing out a perspective difference that is real between the EU experience and the US one.

Yes we allow Neros, and Julius's and everything in between but our imperial presidency creates Ceasars for a time. 4 year 8 years or till impeachment or resignation or death.
All US presidents are given imperial powers. Its in the constitution. Julius Ceaser would have understood the office. (It was an elected position before him.)

Basicly the US system is a modernized Roman one with Chinese civil service, English courts. One could even see the Civil War mapping into a different outcome and path to the Slaves War of Sparticus...

Posted by 3dc 2004-06-08 12:13:54 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:13:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#101 As the Bible says, NMM, "No rest for the wicked."
Guess you pinkos have to get lots of downtime this week--the outpouring of love, respect and admiration from the American public by the millions for the late, GREAT President Ronaldus Magnus is clearly going to be your undoing!
(You Left Wing nutburgers had such high hopes that you were winning the Culture War before Sunday....ROFL...!)

Posted by Jen 2004-06-08 12:15:15 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-08 12:15:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#102 Know where the Kennedy Democrats went?

We didnt leave the Democrat party - it left us.

You kicked us out.

We are all "block captains" for the Bush campaign - we are the "Reagan Democrats" who saw the moral center of the Demcoratic Party rot away, we are the formerly solid Democratic Catholics who can no longer abide the 2-faced behavior of the Democrat party on removing Religion for America and allowing the holocaust of abortion to run unopposed.

We are value facts, we are optimists, and we dont have time to hate, whereas you are ignore facts and concern yourself with feelings, you are pessimists and spend your lives seething.

Call us when you regain your ability to value true free interchange of ideas.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-08 12:17:54 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:17:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#103 NMM, rich people by a margin of more than 9 to 1 donate to the Democrats over the Republicans. Republicans are the party of the middle classes. The Democrats are the party of the rich.

Posted by Phil B 2004-06-08 12:19:35 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:19:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#104 http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20030707-090426-8917r.htm
Democratic Party gobbled up an astounding 92 percent of all individual contributions totaling $1 million or more during the 2001-02 election cycle. Meanwhile, it was the Republican Party that received 64 percent of all individual contributions less than $200 per donor.
...
Indeed, only in the truly fat-cat segments ($100,000-$999,999 and $1-million-and-above) did the self-described "party of the people" outraise the GOP. From individuals who contributed $1 million or more, Democrats collected $48 million, or 1,100 percent more than the Republicans' $4 million.

Posted by ed 2004-06-08 12:26:06 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:26:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#105 NMM:

Here are some words you should consider...

Many people are so embittered and furious when they are in a state of anger that they cling to it not only for days, but drag it into weeks and beyond. I am at loss for words to explain those who erect a barrier aroudn their hearts and distill the bitter poison [of hate] until it finally destroys them. The could not have understood how important it is to avoid retaining anger, not merely externally, but even in our thoughts, because it darkens our intellect with bitterness and cuts it off from the radiance of understanding and discernment. [Depriving it of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit].

John Cassian, Egyptian Christian mystic. sometime around the 3rd-4th century AD

Posted by OldSpook 2004-06-08 12:39:58 AM|| 2004-06-08 12:39:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#106 Nice one OldSpook a little understanding with NMM will go a long ways. I expect a failed relationship might have something to do with his current anger. Oddly he seems angry all the time, perhaps he's mistaking a warm handshake for something meaningful.

Posted by Shipman 2004-06-08 6:23:21 AM|| 2004-06-08 6:23:21 AM|| Front Page Top

09:14 Anon1
09:08 .com
09:03 Anon1
06:23 Shipman
04:17 Howard Uk
04:13 .com
04:04 Anon1
03:31 Phil B
02:29 rex
01:54 Zenster
00:49 RMcLeod
00:48 ed
00:40 Damn_Proud_American
00:39 OldSpook
00:37 ed
00:33 TS(vice girl)
00:26 ed
00:19 Phil B
00:17 OldSpook
00:15 Jen
00:13 3dc
00:10 OldSpook
00:10 Not Mike Moore
00:09 tu3031