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2004-06-23 Israel-Palestine

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Posted by Anon1 2004-06-23 8:51:53 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 one word - Fence

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-23 9:19:17 AM|| 2004-06-23 9:19:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 agreed, liberalhawk: build it high, build it wide, flood it with a moat, electrify it... yes they need a big fat WALL: wonder of the modern age. Sometimes people just physically need to be kept out, sad but true.

Also it can't hurt that sugardaddy Saddam is gone with his lollybag of US$14k for the families of every suicide boomer.

Also the icing of every top Hamas official from Tehran to Timbuktu can only have helped the situation.

I love how the tele mirror spins it as just a "decline in Palestinian attacks" as though it was due to an absence of trying rather than a successful put-down.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-23 9:39:43 AM|| 2004-06-23 9:39:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "decline in successful Paleo attacks" would've been accurate

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-23 9:56:48 AM|| 2004-06-23 9:56:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Wow, Liberalhawk, we find common ground!

I agree with LH & Anon1 about the wall. That said, it seems to be a pattern over there that, whenever we make a prediction about what will or will not happen, the terrorists are listening and try to produce conditions that are 180 degrees different from what we pronounce. A wall will make conditions less easily "adjusted" by the suicide bombers.

Posted by jules 187 2004-06-23 10:22:01 AM|| 2004-06-23 10:22:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The wall has helped, especially near Jenin.

However, other things are going on. The wall is not in operation near Jerusalem where some of the most deadly attacks were. The removal of Saddam's money from the terrorfata and the decrease in Saudi money probably are key elements here. Somewhat ironically, Arafat embezzles most of the discretionary EU money before it can get to the hands of the terror gangs. This means the Israelis can buy more agents.

Posted by mhw 2004-06-23 11:45:20 AM|| 2004-06-23 11:45:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 mhw - the fence covers the whole Samaria area IIUC, from Jenin around Nablus and Ramallah. Gaza was already fenced, so that leaves Jerusalem, and Judea (ie Hebron etc) but the south the terrain is more open and desertlike, and distances to main population centers are greater. Only good route left is Jerusalem - and the fence by freeing up resources, makes it easier to stop attacks there.

Jules - well our common ground only goes so far, i fear. I note that reports indicate that the fence has also made life better for Pals in Jenin, and I celebrate that, as well.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-23 11:55:08 AM|| 2004-06-23 11:55:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 That also is not a point of disagreement. I vehemently oppose the "resistance" (suicide bombers), but I am certainly not against the Palestinians and in fact hope to see a peaceful and tolerant Palestinian state (but not at the price of eliminating the state of Israel). I hope the Palestininas' lives get easier, too, so they get some momentum and faith in the future.

While justice for Israel after WWII was well deserved (Jews had been the favorite kicking boy of the whole world for a long time), the justice the Israelis received through a return to native land came at the price of injustice to Palestinian inhabitants of the shared land. I don't think we disagree there? If the two religions could have fully accepted each other (live and let live toleration), this debate would be nonexistent. Since they can't or won't, then we have to find a MEANINGFUL way to try to put things right. It won't come through human manna floating through the air.

Posted by jules 187 2004-06-23 12:26:00 PM|| 2004-06-23 12:26:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Let me see: 1)Build a fence, 2)Take away funding, 3)Kill Leaders. Sound like a good recipe for success. Notice not ONE Arab country can running to the aid of Arafish or his thugs? That should tell you a lot.

Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2004-06-23 2:06:56 PM|| 2004-06-23 2:06:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Jules, I can relate to what you are saying. However hasn't that route has been tried for the past 20-30 years to no avail?

The latest 'roadmap' was targeted and murdered on a bus by Hamas. Arafat has shown no interest in solving the problem (only of prolonging it). Aid money for the Palistinian people are being outright stolen by Arafat and his gang (so much for giving a shit about 'his people'....).

Perhaps after the current 'leadership' in Palistine is dead (or killed) can we get someone in there who is truly interested in helping palestine.

In the meantime the fence/wall seems like the best idea - create a defacto Palestinian state.

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-06-23 2:26:57 PM|| 2004-06-23 2:26:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Cyber - er Syria, it would seem. with the Egyptians and Jordanians participating in plans that would weaken Arafats hold on the PA, and Arafat screaming bloody murder, he was backed by terror groups meeting in BEIRUT, all the groups based in DAMASCUS. I think i saw a quote from Baby Assad, but im not sure.

To some extent this is an extension of a struggle for power over Palestine between Egypt and Syria, a struggle that antedates modern times.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-23 2:39:44 PM|| 2004-06-23 2:39:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I agree with you, CF. Most people that aren't fixed into a philospohical corner can see that, too.

And I bet you would agree that the Palestinians don't see it that way-they actually honor these "martyrs" and astoundingly don't make the connection that the continuation of the suicide bombings has caused the 4-party Peace Plan to stall out. We have been waiting for 2 1/2 years for them to discard this "resistance", and they haven't. There are just a lot of dead bodies-no Palestinian state.

So we go back to the original idea, where stangely enough, you, LH, and I all agree--the wall is accomplishing what no other approach seems to: a reduction in the rate of suicide bombings and therefore a step toward real progress.

Personally, I don't see how Palestinians continuing to stand by Arafat, a leader whose name is now synonymous with terrorism, will get them any closer to having a state.

Posted by jules 187 2004-06-23 2:54:04 PM|| 2004-06-23 2:54:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 The wall is cutting down on the number of boomers and at the same time it is destroying the "boomer as crutch" meme.

If there're fewer boomers the pali people may be able to let go and see the intifada has the poor investment it is.

Is that clear?
Rite.

Posted by Shipman 2004-06-23 4:59:56 PM|| 2004-06-23 4:59:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 I heard from one Israeli that it's not so much about religion, etc., but that the Palestinians want the land because of what the Israelis have done with it through farming and development ($$$).

I bet if the Palestinians were half as smart, the surrounding Arab countries would be begging them to be "immigrants." As it is, Palestinians, in general, are just dead weight on any economy.

Agree with you Shipman--at least I hope you're right. Of course, "the wall" itself could be the next gripe, and the "source" of all their troubles.

Do they have monitored entrances (in the wall) into Israel for Palestinian workers? (Is this a dumb question?)

Posted by ex-lib 2004-06-23 7:39:56 PM|| 2004-06-23 7:39:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I think that the Israelis should expel all Palestinians, seal the border and then do what everyplace from Iowa to Canada has done, import Mexican workers.

Posted by RWV 2004-06-23 10:38:44 PM|| 2004-06-23 10:38:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 ex-lib. I seem to recall that the Paleo's and their media lapdogs are already complaining about the wall cutting them off from their wall.

They even complained because one woman had, in effect, her own personal crossing. I guess it wasn't enough for them.

In a way I kind of feel sorry for them - the average Palestinian. They do really live in a hell hole. But it is a hell-hole of their own making. They have had plenty of chances to settle it and find final peace but each time Hamas and Arafat have deliberatly killed any prospect for peace.

They need to take responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming it on 'Zionist' and the 'Imperial Americans'....

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-06-24 12:36:00 AM|| 2004-06-24 12:36:00 AM|| Front Page Top

08:04 Arijit
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