Article

2004-06-28 Europe

Chirac Disses President Bush Over Turkey EU Admission

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Posted by Capt America 2004-06-28 21:04|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Ah, I see the Capt. has beat me to posting this.

Chirac is really losing it. Tell me again about the suave Gallic way of handling things ???? LOL Poor Chirac, even Schroeder was quiet this time around.

Posted by too true 2004-06-28 9:40:48 PM|| 2004-06-28 9:40:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Chirac *is* losing it. And he's also a jerk ofcourse.

But in this case he also happen to be correct. Perhaps Bush doesn't understand what a big deal EU membership is -- either way he should flirt Turkey using his *own* country's assets.

If offering Turkey membership as the 51st state isn't acceptable, Bush could choose people with Turkish ancestry for his next cabinet for example. Or offer a significant percent of USA's budget in order to improve the Turkish economy. Or offer Turkey a veto for many of America's decisions.

You know, the kind of things he said EU should do, when he said they should give Turkey membership, Bush being *so* generous with *other* people's money.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 9:57:29 PM|| 2004-06-28 9:57:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 French officials insisted there would be "no Nato flag" in Iraq.

The arrogance is mind-boggling. The French have about as much right to speak for NATO as the Swedes do.

Posted by Wuzzalib 2004-06-28 9:59:37 PM|| 2004-06-28 9:59:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Aris--

I don't have Bush's full statement. But from your remarks I gather you think the US gummint has no right to comment on European affairs. Do likewise think that Euro gummints have no right to comment on relations between the US and, say, Cuba? And do they never?

Posted by Wuzzalib 2004-06-28 10:03:39 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:03:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aris - we have a different opinion - we'll say whatever the fuck we want about what we think are the best interests of our "allies", and if our enemies don't like it? Welllll, I think Dick Cheney will provide the retort

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-28 10:13:19 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:13:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 I think it depends on whether the guy making the statement is calling for something that his own country is also doing.

For example:

If Blair said to Bush "UK is recognizing Taiwan as independent, and I call on America to do the same" that's... okay.

If he said to Bush "UK will be lifting the embargo to Cuba, and I call on America to do the same"... again okay.

If he said "America should attack Sudan, and UK will be there to help you" -- again okay.

But in this case, Bush said that EU should do something, and has nothing on even a *nearly* similar scale to indicate his own commitment.

As I said -- he was being generous with other people's money. Let him first make his own generous offers of a similar level towards Turkey and *then* talk about what EU should do for it. I made several suggestions he can choose from.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 10:14:17 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:14:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Frank G.> I'm really not that certain such a statement was in the interests of anyone. I doubt it will help Turkey.

I read Bush's statement in EUObserver before I saw it mentioned here (before Chirac commented on them) and they annoyed me. I think that'll be the attitude of many other Europeans also -- atleast the ones interested in EU issues -- distaste at Bush butting in in an important issue that doesn't concern him one bit.

I have no idea how you think such a comment helps Turkey.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 10:19:41 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:19:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=9&aid=16743

This was the article, and you'll notice that the British Chris Patten, though much more polite in expressing it, again pretty much said that Bush was butting in in an issue outside his jurisdiction.

External Relations Commissioner Chris Patten said that the EU alone would decide if Turkey had met the criteria to begin talks on membership adding that he understood Mr Bushâs interest.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 10:26:49 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:26:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Gee, Aris, I guess Americans are so used to hearing Europeans commenting about our internal affairs, we didn't think you'd mind when the favor was returned.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-28 10:30:18 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-06-28 10:30:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Mind if you give me some specific examples, Robert, of such comments by European heads of government?

I admit that I fail to remember any of them. Has any European head of government recently told Bush he should legalize same-sex marriages or something? Without him having implemented it in his own country first, that is?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 10:35:46 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:35:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I just remembered one such meddlesome comment -- a comment by Putin about the Democrats not having any right to criticize Bush about the Iraqi War because they are just as bad as he. Or something.

But that one was welcomed in Rantburg I think by pretty much everyone EXCEPT me, because I felt it was anti-American rather than anti-Kerry rhetoric.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 10:43:24 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:43:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Since when is Chirac the spokesperson for the whole EU?
And President Bush was only putting in a good word for Turkey.
Chirac and DeVillepin and the rest of the EUroweenies have no problem telling us we're wrong about Iraq, about Israel and the Paleos, and even about things like our "one China policy."
In fact, the French, as personified by Chirac, have made it a point to take the Contrarian position to every position that Bush and the U.S. takes, so this was just one more example for ChIraq to look like an ass.
Like Bush (or anybody else) cares what Jacques thinks!
And the sheer arrogance of Chiraq saying it in the country concerned, too! How rude.
Someone--and I wish it were Bush--is going to tell Chiraq to go Dick Cheney himself real soon!

Posted by Jen 2004-06-28 10:45:33 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-28 10:45:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris, I don't think you and I would EVER agree on what constitutes anti-American. I'll leave it at that

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-28 10:45:53 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:45:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris, if the Turks want to stand still for the EU blowing smoke up their ass yet again, it's fine by me. But don't try and tell me they ever had a real chance at a place at the high table. Hah!

Personally, if I were Bush I would have offered Turkey preferred trade status (hey, we give it to China, what the hell?) and a NATO seat in return for stabilization help in non-Iraq ME countries. That's all the really want, anyway, and it's a cheap way to ease the tension in the region and screw the French at the same time, which makes it worthwhile right there...

Posted by mojo 2004-06-28 10:46:06 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:46:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 That's a mighty selective memory you have there, Aris. Pretty much all we hear from Europe is how wrong everything is in America. Hell, that's all we hear from you.

You might also notice that I didn't limit my comment to heads of government.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-28 10:50:03 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-06-28 10:50:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 mojo> Turkey is already a NATO member. And they already have trade thingies going on with the EU.

Jen> Since when is Chirac the spokesperson for the whole EU? He's not. As I said, Chris Patten, (the one who is essentially said spokesperson) was much more polite and subtle in expressing the inappropriateness of Bush's comment.

And yeah, Chirac *is* rude and obnoxious and seriously losing it. I only said he also happened to be correct this time.

As for Iraq, Israel and the Paleos, such things are hardly "internal affairs". And your One China policy? I've unfortunately heard no difference between USA and Europe in this matter.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 10:54:05 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:54:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Hell, that's all we hear from you.

Let me just say that I don't trust *your* memory, when it's as obviously faulty as this comment of yours indicates.

You might also notice that I didn't limit my comment to heads of government.

Too bad. I did. Kinda important distinction, whether one's representing his country's entire government or is a simple citizen.

As a citizen you talk freely about policies that you might implement in your own country *if* you had the power. As a head of a government, you must put your money where your mouth is, or keep said mouth shut.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 10:57:24 PM|| 2004-06-28 10:57:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 This wasn't an "internal affair."
It was a remark made at a NATO meeting about the EU from the Leader of the Free World.
Jacques has tried to get the EU to change their policy on China so that he can sell arms to them, but then that's an internal matter and the EU told him to forget it, so he's going to do it under the table, cuz he misses that stuff from his old Saddam days.
Since we entered into World War IV on 9/11/01, there are no more "internal matters."

Posted by Jen 2004-06-28 10:58:23 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-28 10:58:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I never said that deals with China are internal affairs. I don't mind such comments. Not when China threatens all its neighbours. I agree - that thing can't be internal.

But Europe sharing sovereignty with Turkey is on a whole different league. If there's one matter that US shouldn't interfere in, this is the one, which countries European countries should share their sovereignty with.

Other than war itself, there's not a single issue approaching EU membership in importance, whether you like it or hate it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 11:05:26 PM|| 2004-06-28 11:05:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 It looks like Mr. President Bush has given "Jake Ch-Iraqe" a sleepless night. This is so hilarious. The EU is an oxymoron to begin with. And the entry of an Islamic state will speed up the process of the new Eurarabia continent. I love anything that pisses off the Greeks and the French, both such pathetic confused people. Of course the goat fuckers hate the idea of Turkey having the same "EU rights". I can hear the seething all the way in the USA. This is just to good. Bush is shoven it down there thoats and they ain't likeing it.
And for the people who do not know who is in NATO, like the Goat Fuckers, here is a nice little link with Graphs that even Goat Fuckers can understand....maybe NATO

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-06-28 11:09:06 PM|| 2004-06-28 11:09:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 It wouldn't surprise me if Bush said this just to get a rise out of Jacques and drive him crazy (if so, he succeeded).
President Bush and Recip Erdogan have forged a very good working relationship and Bush would like to see Turkey do well.
As I said above, it was Chirac who ended up looking like Hitler and in the host country, too!
While you may not like it, Katsaris, the fact of the matter is that the United States is the world's lone superpower and as such, what our President has to say and how it's received are important to the whole world.
If you don't think so, why not ask Jacques how our boycott of French stuff is going and how many tourists show up in France this summer.
Jacques could have addressed this graciously and diplomatically or even have politely ignored President Bush's suggestion, but Nooooooo.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-28 11:11:52 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-28 11:11:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Long Hair Republican> It's extremely rude of you to call mojo a goatfucker. I suggest you apologize to him immediately.

Jen> I'd hope that the leader of the Free World would be above making statements just in order to "get a rise" out of people.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 11:18:43 PM|| 2004-06-28 11:18:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 He makes an exception for Jacques!

Posted by Jen 2004-06-28 11:21:14 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-28 11:21:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I only consider certain Greeks to be goat fuckers. Mojo I am sorry if I offened you. I hope you understand my dislike of certain goat fuckers political views. I did get carried away with the certain goat fucker remarks. But certain goat fuckers should be out laying brick or something to make sure the no longer worth watching olympic games have a place to no longer matter.

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-06-28 11:40:48 PM|| 2004-06-28 11:40:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 I only consider certain Greeks to be goat fuckers.

Well that's a relief, I had thought you considered *all* the Greeks to be goatfuckers.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-28 11:43:21 PM|| 2004-06-28 11:43:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#26

I am very sure that Bush did not take a stand on Turkish integration into the EU just to get a rise of out Chiraq. Turkey's relationship with Europe and more broadly with the West is a very important one.

I appreciate Aris' concerns (and his understandable bias, given that Greece was conquered by Turkey a good while back). However, the EU gives every appearance of playing games with Turkey and jerking it around re: membership.

Bush is making a serious and important point: it is in all our interests for moderate Islamic states to evolve, prosper and integrate into the wider economic, politial and cultural world. If the EU is going to shut out Turkey, it should say so -- but apart from the French, by and large the signals have not been nearly so clear as that.

Moreover, the EU can't make up its mind - when writing a constitution, many want to avoid any mention of the Christian roots of European culture, but when faced with the prospect of including Turkey in the union, such issues become important ....

That said, Aris is right that there are huge financial and other implications of such a move. On the non-financial front, Turkish citizens would have the right to move about freely and settle elsewhere in the EU. Think about the spate of Islamacist bombings in and around Istanbul, the political influence of Islamacist parties in Turkey, and then consider what it might mean to open your borders ....

Set against that the fact that Turkey was a trusted and reliable ally for many years during the cold war.

Posted by rkb 2004-06-29 6:59:38 AM|| 2004-06-29 6:59:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 rkb> I've been accused in this forum of being too pro-Turkish, actually.

Turkey isn't ready for membership yet, and neither is the EU ready for it. Even without any desire to jerk Turkey around, those facts would remains. Turkey has been improving, but it hasn't improved enough yet. And EU doesn't yet have its constitution ratified, and until she does so I'm personally against *any* other country becoming a member state.

So on a double front, besides the issues you mentioned, Turkey and EU aren't ready for each other.

when writing a constitution, many want to avoid any mention of the Christian roots of European culture, but when faced with the prospect of including Turkey in the union, such issues become important

Heh! I noticed the opposite duplicity in the Greek prime minister. On the one hand he was all in favour of having said "Christian roots" mentioned, on the other hand he said that *of course* we are looking forward and being supportive of Turkey's entry in the EU. Yeah, pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-29 9:15:29 AM|| 2004-06-29 9:15:29 AM|| Front Page Top

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