Article

2004-08-09 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tipper 2004-08-09 2:01:33 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Tell you what, we do our business to protect our country and the Euros can fund mosques to stop terrorists, ala Spain and we won't say a word about it.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-09 2:29:20 AM|| 2004-08-09 2:29:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I wish it was that easy, AP. America's national security is ill served if Europe becomes infested or overrun with Islamists. We have already seen the horrendous damage done by France's sequestering of Khomeini. No further repeats are needed. America needs to concoct some way of disincentivizing Europe's continuing embrace of Islamism and extremists in general. Some weird lingering fascination with facism seems to persist on the continent and we must find out how to quash it.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-09 2:38:14 AM|| 2004-08-09 2:38:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Not possible Zenster, because it's not a lingering fascination with facism that's driving the Islamization of Europe. It's the failing ponzi-scheme socialism to which they cling that's killing them, specifically the requirement for an ever-larger base of warm bodies to tax to keep benefits flowing to the higher levels of the social food chain.

Europe has a choice: give up their failed socialist policies or destroy their culture via uncontrolled immigration with Muslim North Africa and the Middle East supplying a large portion of the warm bodies. We can't even convince a clear majority of our own people that the socialist path is doomed to failure so I don't believe we have the proverbial snowball's chance in Hell of doing so with Europe.

Posted by AzCat 2004-08-09 3:34:07 AM|| 2004-08-09 3:34:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I am pretty sure it's too late AZ. I try and read the web presence of the Media in "old europe" it's too late for them if I use that metric.

Posted by FlameBait93268 2004-08-09 4:27:11 AM|| 2004-08-09 4:27:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Less talked about is that the image of an allied Europe has been shattered here at home.

Exactly. Zenster, it would be better if Europeans could find it within their hearts to see us as friends, but they have a long way to go for some of US to see THEM as friends again. Some of us here are beginning to doubt their "overwhelming sympathy" of 9/11; it looks a lot, in retrospect and given their current hostility to America, like an exercise in altruistic posturing for the cameras. Some of us are recognizing that there isn't any deal too sleazy for them to participate in, or any genocide too horrific that they can't ignore it by just talking about it. Great article.

Posted by jules 187 2004-08-09 10:43:45 AM|| 2004-08-09 10:43:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 9/11 was "hostility". Most of Europe's stance towards America probably rates as no bigger than mere "annoyance".

People who think that friends must agree on everything, may have difficulty distinguishing between the two concepts.

As a sidenote, a nice map showing governmental positions on Iraq:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Country_positions_Iraq_war.png

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-08-09 1:09:42 PM|| 2004-08-09 1:09:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Aris, that map is BS. Since there never was a vote at the UN (before the invasion), you cannot tell which countries opposed the war and which ones didn't. Refusal to send troops cannot be seen as absolute opposition.
Secondly, the fact remains that some countries did not oppose the war perse, because they would have sent troops had there been a UN resolution. That's only a technical matter, and in terms of the moral grounds for supporting the war or not...a rather trivial one.

Posted by Rafael 2004-08-09 1:28:22 PM|| 2004-08-09 1:28:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 It's the failing ponzi-scheme socialism to which they cling that's killing them... Europe has a choice: give up their failed socialist policies or destroy their culture via uncontrolled immigration with Muslim North Africa ...

Well said AzC. If Aris is any indicator, they are going to watch their roof leak until it caves in around them.

It's convenient to divert the blame for their problems to American's and Jews, but it doesn't change the fact that Europe is in trouble...unless, of course, you prefer Sharia and Burkas to western society. In that case, their problems aren't a bug, they're a feature.

Posted by B 2004-08-09 1:30:14 PM|| 2004-08-09 1:30:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 I agree that Europeans and American liberals are peas in a pod. But VDH is correct in noting that these don't represent the heart of America.

I've often wondered if one reason why bin Laden, and others in the jihad movement believe that what works in Europe will also work here is because he hung with our educated elite. Thus it makes sense that he would base his strategy on the belief that Americans are like Europeans.

What Europe doesn't understand is that our "elite" is considered weak and ineffectual by the majority of Americans. They are now seen as clueless fops who prize conformity and fashion over science and truth.

They are seen in much the same way we view the Vatican to the practice of Christianity; individuals sequestered away from the realities of the world around them...old, rigid and stale and suffocating.

Posted by B 2004-08-09 1:48:29 PM|| 2004-08-09 1:48:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Aris, if I feel the need for pontification on the definition of friend, I'll let you know.

Posted by jules 187 2004-08-09 1:49:58 PM|| 2004-08-09 1:49:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Even if you don't like Bush this is reason enough to vote for him. The euroweenies need to know that the typical american doesn't care what they think about him.

Posted by Formerly Dan 2004-08-09 1:54:46 PM|| 2004-08-09 1:54:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 AZ,

It's the same song with a different tune. Bismarck founded the modern welfare state and the Nazis were enthusiastic about promoting state intervention, make-work programs and "Strength through Joy" vacation plans. There is no contradiction between love for fascism and nanny-state interventionism, the historical record shows that the opposite is true.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-08-09 2:37:58 PM|| [http://saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-08-09 2:37:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Rafael -- I believe that the USA nonetheless called for vocal support to the invasion, even outside the UN mechanism. Thus the various "declarations of support" (like the Vilnius 10) -- and likewise there existed declarations of opposition that again were made outside any official mechanism. I didn't make the map but nonetheless I don't believe it's inaccurate any in detailing the stances of the various governments. If you have a specific example of a mistake let me know.

Formerly Dan> "Even if you don't like Bush this is reason enough to vote for him. The euroweenies need to know that the typical american doesn't care what they think about him."

Yeah, the typical American doesn't care what the euroweenies think and he doesn't care so much that he should change his vote to show just how much he doesn't care.

Cute thing is that you wrote what you wrote without even understanding the innate irony.

B> If Aris is any indicator, they are going to watch their roof leak until it caves in around them.

While the USA are watching their roof leak and so they spend time repairing the couch?

If Aris was any indicator the West would be attacking Syria or Iran and sending troops to turn Darfur defacto independent rather than waste time dealing with the already demolished countries of isolated hasbeen dictators.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-08-09 3:21:04 PM|| 2004-08-09 3:21:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Neat map, Aris. I'll put money on the Red Team. Anybody want to back Blue?

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-08-09 4:11:36 PM|| 2004-08-09 4:11:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aris, It's not your hate for America that is frustrating to read (typical socialist-loving hatred of a mostly free market USA), it is your constant Euro-loving, blind loyalty to a failed & deteriating system. At the rate Old Europe is allowing itself to disappear (birth rates to most of Old Europe's population is below replacement level) the Islam call to prayer will be the sound most heard besides the gun fire in the streets in just a few short decades. I only hope, and it's a faint hope, Old Europe will awake soon from their ruinous socialist nanny-state and understand the dark future that awaits their populations. God be with them! By the way, that is the Biblical God and not the false god Allah!

Posted by Constitutional Individualist 2004-08-09 4:39:58 PM|| 2004-08-09 4:39:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Constitutional Individualist -- and it's not your hatred of Europe that's tiresome to read, nor your bizarre obsession that I must for some reason hate America (though noone's yet been able to find a single post of antiAmericanism from me) -- it's the way you ludicrously shallow up and then spew back out even the most moronically meaningless propagandistic terms like "Old Europe" and you still seem to think your post still deserves a shred of respect.

And which Biblical god is that, btw? The Biblical trinitarian god of the Christians, or the Biblical God of the Jews which has no children?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-08-09 5:07:01 PM|| 2004-08-09 5:07:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "In the begining was the Word..."

Posted by 2% 2004-08-09 5:13:03 PM|| 2004-08-09 5:13:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 bottom line is tha Americans really have never cared what the euors think...which is fine for me since they rush to appease than to to confront. appeasing will get you no where with the jihadis, soddy being a perfect example (and soon to be spain).
as for aris i believe he wants the same goals (taking out terror states like syria and iran) but is frustrated in the fact that euros a cannot achieve them and is unwilling to climb off his ego to admit it is America who can and will.

Posted by Dan 2004-08-09 17:54|| 2004-08-09 17:54|| Front Page Top

#19 Unlike Germany and England, Greece has done rather well from membership in the EU. First were all those transfer payments to boost their economy, then the excuse of EU rules to control the wild politics on the homefront. And of course, all those lovely European tourists come to spend their money in the home of the First Democracy. Then too, EU rules are likely no more stifling than their own home-grown version. So, its understandable that a Greek would think well of the institution.

Aris, France's duplicitious behaviour in the Security Council with regard to Iraq goes well beyond mere annoyance, nearing the realm of semi-open warfare. In fact, on reading Jean-Francois Revel's recent work on anti-Americanism, I am forced to conclude that the default European attitude is anti-American, just like for too many it is antisemitic. This does not bode well for the long term relationship between the two continents.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-09 18:43|| 2004-08-09 18:43|| Front Page Top

#20 Europe....piffle. The most of the best left there about 100 years or more ago.

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-09 22:08|| 2004-08-09 22:08|| Front Page Top

#21 "Kerry must win, you see, so we can be friends again." Friends with whom, Chirac, The Germans?

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-08-09 22:24|| 2004-08-09 22:24|| Front Page Top

#22 I think we should remove all troops from Europe and disengage diplomatically and economically. The world's center of gravity has moved away from Europe and it will soon be one of this planet's backwaters. Let's be civil, but cold, to Europe as a whole. Deal with each country on a case by case basis and only to the extent it benefits the US. Let us never again send 300,000 Americans to die for Europe. Remove Most Favored Nation trade status and only import what there are no substitutes elsewhere (I can't think of any but a few drugs). Let them figure in our policy as much as the Seychelles.

Since I think Muslims in the US will be deported before this religious war is over, I say deport them to Europe. Probably Belgium since they will go majority Muslim first. Let's help the process along by a few years. If Europeans wake up and fix their problems, then good for them. Otherwise, let them become ~~waiters and whores~~ slaves and concubines. They are used to it.

Posted by ed 2004-08-09 22:41|| 2004-08-09 22:41|| Front Page Top

04:12 Anonymous6017
18:44 badanov
18:42 Anonymous6105
14:44 CrazyFool
03:09 Asedwich
03:06 Asedwich
02:21 Lucky
01:28 Super Hose
00:55 Super Hose
00:34 Super Hose
00:18 gromky
00:06 Anonymous6025
00:04 trailing wife
23:57 Zenster
23:49 Anonymoose
23:46 trailing wife
23:45 Zenster
23:41 Zenster
23:39 Ernest Brown
23:37 Barbara Skolaut
23:35 FlameBait93268
23:24 Zenster
23:19 Zenster
23:18 Super Hose