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2004-08-12 Caucasus

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Posted by Steve White 2004-08-12 12:11:14 AM|| || Front Page|| [11133 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 LOL...nice closing comment, Steve. And yet this is an amazing story...I was particularly impressed a couple of days ago when Mikhail Saakashvili, told Russian tourist to stay away.

That took some guts. It is also to be noted that Saakashvili was recently swept into power in a bloodless coup removing Shevardnadze.

(It may be a product of growing up under a constant Russian threat here in the US, but it still seems fun to pull the Russian tail now and again.)

I was also curious how Rantburger's would respnd to this developing story. People here seem to like a strong leader that takes no crap...and this certainly seems to be the case with Mikhail Saakashvili.

Just Curious.

Best Wishes,

Traveller

Posted by Traveller 2004-08-12 00:37|| 2004-08-12 00:37|| Front Page Top

#2 Well since Abkhazia is now majority Muslim and in the '92-'93 civil war 250,000 Georgians (1/2 the population at the time) were driven out with Russian support. Similarly, South Ossetia and Adjaria have large Muslim populations, so you can guess where my sympathies lie

Since the recovery of Adjaria earlier this year, the Georgians seem to think they have hit upon the right combination of economic and military pressure. Though since the two regions share a border with Russia, isolation and intimidation will be more difficult. Maybe the Georgians will try to do what the Croats did to East Slavonia. Are there any Black Water trainers in Georgia?

Posted by ed 2004-08-12 01:12|| 2004-08-12 01:12|| Front Page Top

#3 Traveller, I think Mikhail Saakashvili is now claiming his statement was mis-translated.

I am not a fan of Shevardnadze and his ilk, but I question whether Soros' velvet revolutions will serve the local populations in the end. Didn't he end up with some kind of rights to an important mine through his Bosnia involvement?

I would like to see the different ethnic groups have some Wilsonian self-determination because Stalin and Beria did some really bad things to many of them, but the area is so splintered that the Hamiltonian in me doubts that Ossetia and other mini-states are really viable. And what to do with the displaced Meshians (sp?)

Posted by Super Hose 2004-08-12 01:32|| 2004-08-12 01:32|| Front Page Top

#4 I suppose the question worldwide is, Just how small a sections can nations split into? I am far from sure that the Balkanization of the world would be a good thing...or even possible. Of course, I could be wrong on this.

However, since reading Paris 1919, published in England as The Peacemakers, I have developed a very jaundiced view of Wilson. Not so much as an evil man, but just terribly misguided and this idea of ethnic self determination is just wrong, emotionally, intellectually, and in a practical sense.

The world and nations need to be bound together by ideas of freedom, personal conscience, mutual respect. Minorities should be able to live just as freely as the majority in any nation in the world. These are the ideas that matter and should guide us.

The lack of personal freedom, to be Christian or Jewish or Buddhist, in the Islam world is what this conflict is all about, (I should note with a smile, that this is a liberal/progressive theology...lol)

Best Wishes,

Traveller

Posted by Traveller 2004-08-12 02:29|| 2004-08-12 02:29|| Front Page Top

#5 It seems to me nations have to be big enough to have enough resources to defend themselves against external and internal threats. At a minimum, the police/military should be able to suppress internal gangs/mafia/warlords/guerrillas. Otherwise there is no real freedom, and the thugs move in, e.g. Al Qaeda.

Posted by virginian 2004-08-12 07:37|| 2004-08-12 07:37|| Front Page Top

#6 Those who may be confused by the "Wilsonian" and "Hamiltonian" tags are referred to Walter Russell Mead's book "Divine Providence". VERY Illuminating. Don't confuse being "Wilsonian" (which refers to having a certain world view and general set of goals) with being a fan of President Wilson (who held that world view and set of goals, and may have erred in specific actions and plans to carry out the goals.) Wilsonians certainly are the main supporters of the UN, but are so caught up in the current mechanisms that they forgot that their original goal was to further human progress and end human suffering. The current neo-cons running the show in Iraq are Wilsonians who are realists about the UN, even though the majority of the troops are "beat the sh*t out of the enemy until they unconditionally surrender" Jacksonians.

Mead's divisions of America are insightful. However, I find it hard to see Kerry and the LLL as principled Jeffersonians.

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2004-08-12 09:20|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-08-12 09:20|| Front Page Top

#7 South Ossetia supposedly doesn't seek independence but rather unity with North Ossetia inside the Russian federation -- likewise with Transnistria, which has declared a desire to be part of Russia -- even though Transnistria doesn't even have common borders with it. Not sure about Abkhazia.

So, the question of how small nations can get doesn't seem to me very relevant at this situation -- the situation is rather about Russian imperialism endorsing "separatist" movements which will quickly unite with Russia if they succeed in their separation.

So in your question Steve -- cheer for Georgia rather than Russia, because the Ossetians are (like the Adjarians or the Transnistrians) nothing but the puppets of the bear.

Posted by Aris Katsaris">Aris Katsaris 2004-08-12 09:34|| 2004-08-12 09:34|| Front Page Top

#8 This whole thing is an absolute diplomatic blunder by all parties!!!! Snap out of it everyone!!!! Here's the deal: Russia is fighting Muslim terrorists in Chechenya. Before 911 we were constantly complaining of the "Russian brutality" in Chechenya. Well, as soon as 911 happened we should have apologized to the Russians and sent in troops to fight side-by-side with the Russians in Chechenya, since the "Muslim seperatists" are Al-Qaida. But Washington f***ed up big time by suddenly sending in military trainers to Georgia after 911 to train them to go into the border areas with Chechenya to seek out the rebels. The Russians took offense to this because they had long accused the Georgians of allowing their border with Chechenya to become a base camp for Basayev and the other Chechen terrorists. America needs to understand that there is a rivalry/animosity between the Georgians & the Russians. But we have somehow been seen to be siding with the Georgians. We need to be dealing with both of them to deal with the area as a region. The problem is regional. The terrorists have no borders. We should be against Abkhazia & South Ossetian seperatists, because they appear to be Muslim seperatists. We should be pressuring Russia to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Georgians against the seperatists & we should pressure the Georgians to work together with the Russians against the Chechen terrorists. Otherwise we're going to end up with a Caliphate in South Ossetia & Abkhazia and worse we're going to have a situation in which the Georgians and Russians refuse to work with each other, so the terrorists will win. The Muslims are going to come out on top and the Russians & Georgians will be left worse off & our goals for the War on Terrorism in the region will be unmet. I don't understand why the Russians don't see that the Georgian seperatists are doing the same thing the Chechens did. I don't understand why everyone has their heads up their asses on this one. We've got to stop these idiots from shooting at each other on that border...A frickin' war is going break out and then we'll be screwed regionally.

Posted by Kentucky Beef">Kentucky Beef 2004-08-12 10:24|| 2004-08-12 10:24|| Front Page Top

#9 ak and kb summarize this neatly. This isnt about the viability of small states, so much as its about Putin and Russian power. Georgia has the legal right to SO, and is more democratic than Russia. But if youre a big fan of Putin and alliance with Russia against global Islam, and are willing to swallow Russian tactics, cause you think against muslims the harsher the better, I would suspect youd go with Russia, and thus with the the Ossetians, even if THEY are muslims.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 10:29|| 2004-08-12 10:29|| Front Page Top

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