Article

2004-09-27 Israel-Palestine

Greek Orthodox, Franciscans Duke It Out at Church of the Holy Sepulcher

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Posted by Fred 2004-09-27 9:58:07 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Don't some of the parties live on the roof?

Posted by Shipman 2004-09-27 10:26:05 AM|| 2004-09-27 10:26:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Yes, Shipman, and some of the newer, ie Protestant, varieties don't get any real estate at all. But as the article states, this has been going on for a very long time. Under the Ottomans, the Muslims moderated, now the Israelis do, at least as much as possible (there aren't any drains down there for hosing out blood). Mark Twain wrote pithily about this, as he did about so much else.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-09-27 10:48:58 AM|| 2004-09-27 10:48:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Yup, Religions of Peace, all of them.

Or is it Religion of Piece of (of rival soul merchant's) Flesh?

Posted by lex 2004-09-27 10:50:40 AM|| 2004-09-27 10:50:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I wonder why the Jooooos stopped the Christian massakkre. This is an outrage!!!!

Posted by Poison Reverse 2004-09-27 11:03:10 AM|| 2004-09-27 11:03:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The Church is divided into many smaller areas inside, demarked by railings and sometimes by walls. It can get pretty crowded and the fights can about who should count as a different group can rival arguments about UN representation. (i.e. how many different orders in Roman Catholicism should count, given that the Eastern church doesn't divide that way to nearly the same degree?)

It's a wonderful old holy place nonetheless. When I was there in 1987 I had a long talk with a Coptic monk in a tiny, incense and icon-filled chapel. But it is a rubbing-elbows experience & I can imagine things would get touchy after decades of the guy next door continuing to hum off-key or leave the door open or whatever .... LOL

Posted by rkb 2004-09-27 11:34:24 AM|| 2004-09-27 11:34:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Duh, preview is my friend! I think I need some caffeine before I can write coherently today ....

Posted by rkb 2004-09-27 11:36:04 AM|| 2004-09-27 11:36:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I say take the place away from them until they decide to get the f over it.

That will fix the problem.

What I just don't understand is that Christianity attaches no spiritual merit to holy places. All spiritual merit is derived from faith in Jesus. No commandments are given by Jesus to pray in certain places nor is it at all necessary to go on a pilgrimage to lead a full and complete Christian spiritual life. Christianity is alone among the religions in that our scriptures do not command pilgrimages.

I think its just a case of old habits die hard. Christians have long exercised the option of visiting holy places and I can understand the appeal, but it really is time to get over it or else have someone else force you to get over it. It doesn't help that both the old world Catholic and Orthodox churches are just as stuck back in the early centuries as islam is and still fighting old battles like they just started yesterday.

When is it time to abandon principle? When you bring everlasting shame upon Jesus and on the spot where tradition says that he accomplished the greatest act of love and peace ever known in history.

These guys are idiots.

Posted by peggy 2004-09-27 11:40:22 AM|| 2004-09-27 11:40:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I went there in 1998 (full disclosure: I'm a practicing Christian), and I was appalled at the atmosphere: jostling in lines, bored priests acting as gatekeepers at various points, and an overall cheap and tawdry feel. To top it all off, there was a money changer in the portico as we were leaving.

The visit strongly reinforced in me the feelings expressed by peggy.

Posted by Xbalanke 2004-09-27 11:50:21 AM|| 2004-09-27 11:50:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Do away with ALL Holy sites. It is my observation that people tend to start worshipping the site and forget the spiritual aspects of their religion. They same goes for the Bible and the Koran. People call for bloodletting if the Bible or Koran are "desecrated". Theese are words on paper that can easily be reprinted. So what if I destroy a Bible or the Koran. I'm not destroying the ideas they espouse.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-09-27 12:04:28 PM|| 2004-09-27 12:04:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 PS. Its examples like this one as well as the stampedes in Mecca as well as all the fighting and butchery associated with all holy places in the world that demostrates the wisdom of Jesus in not making religious pilgrimage an obligation.

Now if only people would make the connection that Jesus didn't find it at all important to pray in certain places, we would all be in much better shape. The pressure to fight for space would evaporate.

But I'm not going to hold my breath.

BTW, maybe I shouldn't have been so harsh on the preists in my first post. I read rkb's post after I wrote it and from that I realized that I was being a bit unfair to these people not having ever been there or having met any of them. I still think its silly and not to mention theologically questionable to attach so much importance to their rights to the place but I should also remember that they are only human and can only take so much stress.

I really do think that the solution would be a temporary eviction of all parties until they can get over their divisions and agree to share the whole place equally giving all parties the run of the place on a regular basis for their particular important rites etc.

Jesus was all about surrendering ones rights for the good of all. Do these guys really have to stake out a permanent territory that they must occupy exclusively all the time? Could it be less about territory and more about time share? I guess all that we can hope for is that wiser heads will prevail one of these days.

Posted by peggy 2004-09-27 12:05:46 PM|| 2004-09-27 12:05:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I totally agree with Peggy and Deacon Blues.

Posted by Ptah 2004-09-27 6:22:05 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-09-27 6:22:05 PM|| Front Page Top

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