Article

2004-11-01 China-Japan-Koreas

'Muslim Ethnic Violence' in China Region!

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Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-11-01 1:45:15 AM|| || Front Page|| [8 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 LINK: 'Residents say martial law imposed on Chinese town after deadly rioting'

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-11-01 1:48:44 AM|| [http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/10/31/695319-ap.html] 2004-11-01 1:48:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Peace loving muslims killing again? Impossible!

Posted by Anonymous4724 2004-11-01 8:03:05 AM|| 2004-11-01 8:03:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Historically (last 2000 years), this province has always been home to non-Han peoples and its relationship to the central Chinese government / empire has fluctuated greatly.

Whenever China has historically expanded to its wider borders, it incorporates edge regions which it cannot hold easily and which are populated by non-Han groups. How strongly it tries to clamp down on them has been a function of the strength of the central government at the time, usually.

So it's not quite correct to tie the current violence to Islam, although that surely stands as a proxy / factor in people's minds.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-01 8:11:49 AM|| 2004-11-01 8:11:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Actually, you should probably be rooting for the Muslims in this case.

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-11-01 9:23:27 AM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-11-01 9:23:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 RKB,

That argument can be made for any group that claims to want "independence" from any central government.

The problem here is that Muslims cannot live under any other rule but their own medieval one. They never integrate no matter where they have gone in the past and go in the present. Where they are not presently causing trouble is because they have not attained critical mass.
By the way, Venezuelans has just elected their fist Arab terrorist for governor: Tarek William Saab. Google him and find out why he was denied a Visa to come to the US.

Posted by Anonymous4724 2004-11-01 9:31:04 AM|| 2004-11-01 9:31:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I'm rooting for continued violence. The more of each side gone, the better.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-01 9:45:49 AM|| 2004-11-01 9:45:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 rkb: Historically (last 2000 years), this province has always been home to non-Han peoples and its relationship to the central Chinese government / empire has fluctuated greatly.

That is correct. China, together with Russia, constitute the last of the multiethnic empires, with at least tens, if not hundreds, of millions distinct ethnicities (complete with language and cultural differences). Why does the US work? Because most of its ethnicities came voluntarily. Even the Union was voluntary. By contrast, China's were welded together into the empire by military conquest. The reins of power are held by the Mandarin-speaking elites of the north. Will the center hold? Only time will tell. Is it desirable that the center hold? Only the dissolution of empire will produce freedom for the peoples on what is now Chinese soil.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-01 9:52:34 AM|| 2004-11-01 9:52:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 hmmm - where are the UN peace observers? No 5-star hotels in this burg?

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-01 10:05:08 AM|| 2004-11-01 10:05:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 A4724: The problem here is that Muslims cannot live under any other rule but their own medieval one. They never integrate no matter where they have gone in the past and go in the present. Where they are not presently causing trouble is because they have not attained critical mass.

The Chinese are the colonial occupiers there. Islam is not everywhere America's enemy. And to be quite frank, the position of most Muslims vis-a-vis the US is similar to that of the Latin America countries prior to WWII. They seethe and foam about American assertiveness, but there is little they can do about it without risking their own annihilation.

And China's position with respect to the US is similar to that of Japan and Germany prior to WWII. Like China today, Japan and Germany were some of America's biggest trading partners prior to WWII. (Trade with Japan was especially huge, such that an oil and scrap metal embargo imposed on Japan by FDR led to Pearl Harbor, as part of Japan's quest to secure vital raw materials). Like Japan and Germany, China is rapidly becoming a major industrial power. Workers in semiconductor and garment factories rub shoulders on China's roads. Long term, America's premier strategic competitor is China, not Islam.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-01 10:16:31 AM|| 2004-11-01 10:16:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Good points, ZF. Thanks for your insights and views.

Seems to me that the muslim and the Chinese threats are radically different from each other. The Chinese challenge is pretty much the traditional one of a rising great power that disrupts the equilibrium of the international system. We have plenty of experience in dealing with this kind of disturbance to the old order, as your apt analogies to Germany and Japan make clear. I'm not worried about our ability to handle this new challenger, if only because we know more or less what to expect. Holbrooke under Kerry would probably do as good a job re China as Powell under Bush has done.

However, Islamism is a new threat entirely that requires much more strategic clarity and courage on our part. Islamo-fascism represents neither a strategic rival to the US nor a coherent, rising power whose legitimate interests require accomodation by the established great powers. It's more like a free-floating, transnational, multi-continental version of a failed, rogue state which threatens the stability and the rhythms and cooperative patterns of the entire international order. Failed states with WMD are a new thing in the world. As we've seen, the risk that the western powers will misunderstand this threat, and thereby increase its potential to shock and disrupt the international system, is much greater IMO than the probability of our not getting China right.

Afghanistan was the first test: we and the Euros and Russia succeeded here. Iraq was the second: the Euros and Russia failed miserably and we've made some mistakes as well. Iran is the third test, and the outlook so far is dismal. The Europeans are worse than inept. We can handle China. Can we manage Iran?

Posted by lex 2004-11-01 10:39:42 AM|| 2004-11-01 10:39:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Zhang Fei,
For that matter every country that was ever a colony should have a group or two demanding independence.
Name one area of the world where Islam is prominent that is not an enemy of the US.

Posted by Anonymous4724 2004-11-01 10:44:10 AM|| 2004-11-01 10:44:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 To clarify my comparison above: both China and the Islamists disrupt the international order. But China's demands are for the most part the normal, legitimate aspirations of a rising great power. They can and will play within the established rules, including the principle of non-intervention in established nations' political systems.

The Islamists OTOH are extremists who reject the logic of international stability altogether. They have already shown their willingness to stage apocalyptic strikes against the leading power's military command and financial and political centers, and have also shown their desire (and ability) to intervene in western elections and secure the results they desire. Much more difficult, I think, for us to secure broad and deep cooperation against the latter threat, given the expressed wish of so many elites and publics across the western democracies to deny the exceptional nature of that threat.

Posted by lex 2004-11-01 10:51:55 AM|| 2004-11-01 10:51:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 "America's premier strategic competitor is China, not Islam"

I think the U.S is well aware of that and is actively pursuing deep relationship with India to counterbalance the industrial China.

A recent study by researchers at MIT shows that India will surpass China in the next 10-15 years. The reason behind MIT's conclusion is that India is Democratic, women have power in business and politics, promotes small businesses and MOST of all, English is a major language next to Hindi. Most people in India speaks English. India's under-graduate and post graduate education is ALL in English.

Also, India just launched a "distance-learning" satellite. This satellite can support up to 50,000 simultaneous video streams of educational subject matter into the poor rural areas. India is undertaking a massive effort to get everyone educated.

I don't see China doing this. In China, I do not see that people, especially women, are free to persue their freedom in business and open politics.

It is not a coincidence that every truly sucessful country, allow women to have power in education, business (self-owned) and politics.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2004-11-01 10:59:05 AM|| 2004-11-01 10:59:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Name one area of the world where Islam is prominent that is not an enemy of the US.

Algeria? Tunisia? Morocco? Jordan? They may not be allies, but they aren't enemies.

Posted by Pappy 2004-11-01 11:07:19 AM|| 2004-11-01 11:07:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Pappy,

Their governments may not be, but the people, are. The people of the countries you listed are Osama worshippers and that's dangerous. The respective governments fear "majority of the Muslims" uprisings as opposed to "minority of the Muslims" which can be easily supressed.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2004-11-01 11:16:52 AM|| 2004-11-01 11:16:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Poison Reverse,

Thank you. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example of a government that is with the US (self-preservation) but the average Saudi would like nothing more than to see another Sept 11th or worse. I have personal knowledge of this since I just moved back from living there for 4 years.

Posted by Anonymous4724 2004-11-01 11:56:38 AM|| 2004-11-01 11:56:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Islam is poison and the propoganda they feed to the poisoned will determine the amount of anomosity towrrds the US. I met with a friend over the weekend who manages imports from China for Seattle Bike Supply. I Asked him to look for other places to set up shop. I'll have to get him to check out India. He does say that the society in China is changing rapidly. He hates doing the amount of trading with China buts it's where the action is.

Lex, I'm with you on Zhaing. He doesn't forget the bread with the butter.

Posted by Lucky 2004-11-01 1:21:54 PM|| 2004-11-01 1:21:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Frank G, I suspect that the UN observers would be more concerned with the lack of young women that has resulted from China's one child policy and the resulting widespread abortion or infanticide of females.

Posted by RWV 2004-11-01 3:06:09 PM|| 2004-11-01 3:06:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 The bottom line is Muslims around the world are being infected with jihadism, not all, but it does not require a majority to start a riot or bow up tall buildings.

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-11-01 4:14:44 PM|| 2004-11-01 4:14:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Actually, Henan is not a frontier province. It is the ancient heart of the Hua-Xia/Han civilization, and source of Chinese culture. Its Muslim population descends from both immigrants in ancient times and Han Chinese who converted to Islam.

Henan also has a rotten record on religious freedom, and has seen persecution of Christian as well in recent years.

It is said Han offered pork to Muslims. In SW Taiwan, this could be ignroant hospitality: in parts of China with a long-standing and noticeable Muslim minority, it is a tried-and-true method of provocation; something like white Americans saying "Nigger" to black people (and as inexcusable).

While I think the present Islamic upheval is dangerous, I have a suspicion that the Muslims in Henan may have a real grievance. As for the traffic accident that started it, in any other country, it would be seen as bad driving by someone who happened to be Muslim, and dealt with by courts and ordinary law enforcement.

Also, China has recently suffered a wave of rural and labor discontent.

Posted by Cephas 2004-11-17 11:21:43 PM|| 2004-11-17 11:21:43 PM|| Front Page Top

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