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2004-11-23 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-23 1:23:21 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Children and their parents waved back at the armoured unit and smiled

Apparently so did the suicide bomber a couple of days ago. Be wary.

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-23 1:34:49 AM|| 2004-11-23 1:34:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 In a crucial breakthrough ... they waved at families as they passed through. Children and their parents waved back at the armoured unit and smiled.

This has got to be a joke.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-23 1:48:46 AM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-23 1:48:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Kalle: This has got to be a joke.

Hey - this is part of the softly-softly approach that worked so well in Ireland. Sorry, I mean Northern Ireland. Even if it takes a hundred years to reach a peace agreement (after giving up most of the island in the wake of centuries of periodic rebellions), it's well worth it.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-23 1:54:50 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-23 1:54:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Ok, soooooooooo...what are they going to do with them now, feed them crumpets! Keep them boxed in, call the Americans to come in and dispatch the insurgents! No prisoners!! Prisoners equal UN and Red Cross interference and meddling.

Posted by smn 2004-11-23 4:24:20 AM|| 2004-11-23 4:24:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Time to bring in the Gurkhas to revenge their countrymen..

Posted by Howard UK 2004-11-23 5:42:12 AM|| 2004-11-23 5:42:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 ...but make sure the 'embeds' aren't invited.

As to 'crucial breakthrough' - what a weird turn of phrase.

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-11-23 7:13:30 AM|| 2004-11-23 7:13:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 This sounds like the "anvil" part of the strategy we heard about before we lowered the hammer on Fallujah. Any other reports of Fallujah fascists fleeing into the face of other US or UK troops to the south and east?

Posted by lex 2004-11-23 8:05:55 AM|| 2004-11-23 8:05:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 why is everyone being sarcastic? This sounds like good work to me?

Posted by 2b 2004-11-23 9:00:57 AM|| 2004-11-23 9:00:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 It is. I think the sarcasm comes as a result of the criticism of US approaches in the north vs. the softer approach of the UK troops in the friendlier Shia south, earlier in the war. It did not go unnoticed that once the Black Watch engaged the southern perimeter below Baghdad, they quickly set aside the berets and took a harder approach when they came under serious attack - an implicit vindication of US tactics in the less friendly Sunni areas.

But that said, it is a good sign whenever the Iraqis welcome our work there.

Posted by rkb 2004-11-23 9:32:36 AM|| 2004-11-23 9:32:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 It is good news 2b, I think it's just that people are aware of what the MSM ('crucial breakthrough'??) could make of this: "massacre, war crimes, death of innocents, baby ducks!" as well as the danger to troops of suicide attackers and phony surrenders.

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-11-23 9:34:58 AM|| 2004-11-23 9:34:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 in fact this "triangle of death" is (from what Ive read) a mixed area, with a largely Shiite rural population, and townspeople largely Sunnis who were brought in by Saddam as part of a deliberate effort at demographic change. The jihadis have been attacking Shiite pilgrims on the way south from Baghdad to the shrine cities of Najaf and Karbala. No love lost between the Shiite villagers and the insurgents.

I still dont think many people in the US realize the depths of intergroup hatred in Iraq, or its relationship to the current insurgency. We, both on the right and left, tend to think its all about *us* - either THEY love us, or they hate us - not realizing that THEY know we'll be gone eventually, and their relationships with, and hate for, each other is MUCH more important.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-11-23 10:20:14 AM|| 2004-11-23 10:20:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 It looks like this is a local Newcastle newspaper, a kind of CityBeat thing. In that case the audience will want to know that their boys are making friends in faraway places. Thus, after the hard facts of the hard & effective actions of the Watch and the Guards, a soft bit about how beloved they've made themselves over there.

Only the first part matters, and the journalist knows it. The rest is pro forma...probably something similar in every hard news article in the paper.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-11-23 12:17:24 PM|| 2004-11-23 12:17:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 LH-Yep. A big challenge-but it's THEIR challenge.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-23 12:33:00 PM|| 2004-11-23 12:33:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Transform this into a sunni-on-sunni civil war.

Posted by lex 2004-11-23 12:37:40 PM|| 2004-11-23 12:37:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Jules - not entirely THEIR challenge, I fear. A. If Iraq falls apart,and AQ can set up a base there, thats very bad for us.
B.If Iraq stays together, but with Sunnis completely excluded, thats not as bad as A, but reduces the value of Iraq as a model for the region, since most states in the region are Sunni.

Lex - I hope thats possible, but havent really seen any evidence thats happening. AFAICT, most Sunni Arabs support the insurgency, or at best are neutral.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-11-23 1:50:10 PM|| 2004-11-23 1:50:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 ...The melting thing..wondering if the bad guys are starting to have to resort to heavier and heavier doses of pharmaceuticals to keep going.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-11-23 2:03:32 PM|| 2004-11-23 2:03:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Those things you say are true, LH, but ulitamtely it IS their challenge.

Do you think our engagement there a time-unlimited proposition? If, over time, the resistance forces are replenished again and again by Iraqis, is it a smart proposition, not only in terms of our national security, but also with regard to our regional foreign policy goals and our interfacing with the Muslim world, to continue on the same path? We give all and they continue to act out like bloodthirsty savages who hate the word "peace"? Are they smart enough to recognize a chance for their families when they see it and are they savvy enough to take it?

My take is that the American people do not mind sacrificing IF it leads to a free, stable Iraq and IF there are signs that Iraq is healing and progressing. But if things get more hostile over the long run or less probable in terms of our strategic gains, continued sacrificial engagement will not fly with Americans, nor should it.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-23 2:17:40 PM|| 2004-11-23 2:17:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 that may well be the case Jules. Sometimes you DO have to accept a tactical defeat, and look to the next battlefield. I am not pessimistic now wrt to Iraq, but I cant say that couldnt change. But defeat it would be, if even scenario B takes place.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-11-23 3:30:27 PM|| 2004-11-23 3:30:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Me, either, LH. I'm hoping and praying that good can come out of this.

In the word of a wiseman:

"Difficult to say...always in motion, the future."

Posted by Jules 187 2004-11-23 3:35:25 PM|| 2004-11-23 3:35:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 A. If Iraq falls apart,and AQ can set up a base there, thats very bad for us. I see no scenario that leaves the Sunnis with their own state or quasi-state. Worst case (and reasonbaly likely IMO) is the Kurds and the Shia carve up the Sunni areas and the Sunnis are relegated to 2nd class citizens.

Its remarkable how little we know about what is going on in Iraq. There must be ongoing kurd on sunni conflict as the Kurds try to move back into the areas Saddam expelled them from, yet we hear nothing about it, even in the Kurdish media.

Posted by phil_b 2004-11-23 4:43:22 PM|| 2004-11-23 4:43:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 There must be ongoing kurd on sunni conflict as the Kurds try to move back into the areas Saddam expelled them from

From what I've seen of that, the Sunnis had mostly hightailed before the Kurds even arrived. Didn't like the idea of not having anyone to hide behind.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-23 4:47:09 PM|| 2004-11-23 4:47:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Better to carve up the country if that isolates and separates the sunni problem from the decent functioning of the remainder. Sort of like isolating the IRA in Ulster: peace for 80-90% of the citizenry and hell for the rest is better than misery for 100%.

While we're on the British Isles analogy, there's no reason that Iraq can't have several levels of autonomy, as Britain does. Kurdistan could be like Scotland: an ethnic enclave with its own parliament and tax authority but otherwise subject to the laws of and economically and militarily integrated with a state dominated by a different ethnic group. Fine for the Scots, fine for the Kurds; neither the English/Welsh nor the Shi'a are in any serious way harmed.

As to the sunnis, they're the bloody Irish in all this. Peaceful ones get autonomy. The others get tanks and H-block.

Posted by lex 2004-11-23 5:03:45 PM|| 2004-11-23 5:03:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 As to the sunnis, they're the bloody Irish in all this. Peaceful ones get autonomy. The others get tanks and H-block

Hahaha very amusing :)

Posted by MacNails 2004-11-23 8:58:43 PM|| 2004-11-23 8:58:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 lex, it's my dream but only that. Stand alone sunni's would create the new home for Al Q. Stand alone Shia would be annexed into Iran. Stand alone Kurds would invade Turkey. Unfortunately we need the Kurds to threaten the Sunnis with death and the Shia to outvote them. Three legs to the stool. And that is what Iraq is, stool.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-23 9:14:17 PM|| 2004-11-23 9:14:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 :) ah, Mrs. D, you outflank and outclass me yet again. Fine, three legs then, so long as we don't fall between the stools

Posted by lex 2004-11-23 9:59:49 PM|| 2004-11-23 9:59:49 PM|| Front Page Top

00:06 Bomb-a-rama
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22:31 Darth VAda
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21:38 Raj