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2004-12-14 International-UN-NGOs

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Posted by tipper 2004-12-14 01:59|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 That's an old piece that became part of Kagan's book Of Paradise and Power. Check it out if you haven't.

Posted by BH 2004-12-14 10:14:43 AM|| 2004-12-14 10:14:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Interesting, BH - you probably answered a question I had:

Which came first, this Euro-pandering / think-tankish wankoff or the The Crisis of Legitimacy: America and the World, lecture - delivered at The Grand Hyatt, Melbourne, Tuesday 9 November 2004 and posted on RB a few weeks ago.

Quite a different slant on the same facts, no? Must be a writer's lament that the audience often demands a rewrite for spin's sake. So, I wonder, what does Bobby really think?

Posted by .com 2004-12-14 10:28:12 AM|| 2004-12-14 10:28:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Hmm, I don't think I would describe OPaP as "Euro-pandering". His main argument seems to be that the European socialist "paradise" is an artificial construct which is possible only because of the existence of US power, and that the US cannot itself enter the paradise because, well, somebody has to man the walls. He doesn't come off as openly antagonistic to the Eutopians, but he realizes what side their bread is buttered on.

Posted by BH 2004-12-14 10:45:24 AM|| 2004-12-14 10:45:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Okay, I follow you - but not forgiving him on the spin thingy, however - that first paragraph did a fair job of teaching me how to seethe properly... The tone of they are so enlightened and moving onto a higher plane of existence while Americans are still mired in the past practicing man's inhumanity to man shit didn't sit well with me. Go figure, huh? Lol! :-)

Posted by .com 2004-12-14 10:56:20 AM|| 2004-12-14 10:56:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 here's the nutshell:

But appeasement is never a dirty word to those whose genuine weakness offers few appealing alternatives. For them, it is a policy of sophistication.

Posted by 2b 2004-12-14 10:57:43 AM|| 2004-12-14 10:57:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 .com, I understand how you reached that conclusion. It sounds like the same garbage we get from the Euros all the time, but if you read it again you will note that he is not expressing any moral judgement on us or them. He is not suggesting that the Euros are evolving, or even right, just that they are turning into a "self-contained world of laws and rules, etc." Which is all well and good, until the world outside decides to make problems. That's where the US comes in.

"Mired in history, exercising power in the anarchic Hobbesian world where international laws and rules are unreliable and where true security and the defense and promotion of a liberal order still depend on the possession and use of military might."

That's the outside world. We are in it, keeping the Euros safe and warm in their beds. We have to be, because we are defending ourselves first and foremost, but the Euros have taken advantage of this to divert funds from their own defense to their socialist programs. One could argue that it makes us look bad, still knocking heads among the barbarians. One could also argue that it makes the Euros look worse by retreating inward and leaving the task of defending them to others who can't reap the benefits of their "enlightened" policies.

Posted by BH 2004-12-14 11:30:09 AM|| 2004-12-14 11:30:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 You're bang-on - and I "got it" - I just recalled a much different piece from more recently and realized the facts and points were basically the same, yet this one is assembled and spun to a different POV / audience. I'll give Kagen credit for being an excellent writer, absolutely so, and whack him about the head when he appears to give "legitimacy" to "phantasy", heh. I recall giving less quarter to my daughter, who I love more than my life, when she strayed into phantasy - why on Earth would I give Kagen such leeway, lol? Points taken, and believe me I got it - I was comparing the two articles before I wrote a word.

Posted by .com 2004-12-14 11:42:23 AM|| 2004-12-14 11:42:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 My apologies. I meant no offense.

Posted by BH 2004-12-14 11:59:57 AM|| 2004-12-14 11:59:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 No, no - don't take me wrong... You're right, he does make the points you identified. I'm merely saying he was definitely more subtle here than in the other piece and this article is undated -- I incorrectly assumed that it was more recent than the 11/9/04 article. Your analysis is deadly accurate, as usual!

Posted by .com 2004-12-14 12:16:34 PM|| 2004-12-14 12:16:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Thanks. According to the url, the article is from June, 2002.

Posted by BH 2004-12-14 1:10:49 PM|| 2004-12-14 1:10:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 *slaps forehead*

Posted by .com 2004-12-14 1:13:55 PM|| 2004-12-14 1:13:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 The Kagan piece on legitimacy was a speech he gave a month ago in Australia (I posted it on Rantburg). Kagan is dedicated to interpreting the US and Bush admin to the Europeans (he works in Belgium) and to a lesser extent helping us understand the Euros. I think that's a worthy endeavor. Chirac and Schroeder's day has passed, and the next wave of European leaders will not be so obnoxious.

Posted by lex 2004-12-14 1:29:51 PM|| 2004-12-14 1:29:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Let's rename the EU as "the Shire."

"If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so."

Posted by jackal 2004-12-14 2:58:55 PM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2004-12-14 2:58:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 jackal - ROFL!!! - and that's twice today!

Posted by .com 2004-12-14 3:00:27 PM|| 2004-12-14 3:00:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Go for it Jackal! It's never been done thrice! If you get lucky .com will send you a 50 DVD collection of pictures you just knew were there somewhere.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-14 5:13:37 PM|| 2004-12-14 5:13:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 jackal - Ship gets a commission - so his spiel is slightly tainted by merc sentiments, heh. ;-)

Posted by .com 2004-12-14 6:49:19 PM|| 2004-12-14 6:49:19 PM|| Front Page Top

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