Article

2005-03-03 Europe

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Posted by Steve 2005-03-03 8:59:05 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 32 guys named 'Alex', perhaps? Asia minor should start to worry.

Posted by Bulldog 2005-03-03 9:04:36 AM|| 2005-03-03 9:04:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 IIRC Persepolis was in what is today Modern Iran, right Bulldog?

Posted by Shiter Spoluper4654 2005-03-03 9:12:04 AM|| 2005-03-03 9:12:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Ooh yeah. That wasn't pretty.

Posted by Bulldog 2005-03-03 9:18:04 AM|| 2005-03-03 9:18:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Re: Persepolis - Beer and torches shouldn't mix.

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2005-03-03 9:24:14 AM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2005-03-03 9:24:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 LotR: I'm reminded of that fact every time Metallica goes on tour.

Posted by BH 2005-03-03 10:07:01 AM|| 2005-03-03 10:07:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Metallica, fire and brawling. Almost brings back memories of a concert I think I attended in the early 90s... *g*

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2005-03-03 10:25:27 AM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2005-03-03 10:25:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Jagermeister shots are du rigeur for Metallica tours now, along with the beer and torches...

Posted by Frank G 2005-03-03 10:30:22 AM|| 2005-03-03 10:30:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Actually, it is very, very important that Macedonia have a competant military. There are no fewer than four other nations that claim *all* of Macedonia's territory for themselves, and all threaten to go to war if one of the others seizes Macedonia. That is why there is a semi-permanent contingent of 20,000 NATO troops there since the Clinton days, 4,000 of which are US. Macedonia is one, huge, bloody trigger for the whole region.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-03-03 10:58:39 AM|| 2005-03-03 10:58:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Greece doesn't claim any territory of the Republic of Macedonia for itself -- it only claims the name. :-) "The name 'Macedonia' doesn't belong to you Slavs, it belongs to the Greeks!"

And I think (not completely sure) that Bulgaria doesn't claim any territory of it either -- it only claims the language. "You're not speaking 'Macedonian', you're speaking 'Bulgarian'!"

It's Albanian imperialism and secessionism that's the great threat. And ofcourse if any forces in Serbia attempt for a mad grab at reconstituting Yugoslavia by force again.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 11:52:45 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 11:52:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Oh, please, Aris. The Greeks considered the Macedonians to be half civilized barbarians, not fellow Hellenes. Those Slavs living in the region known as Macedonia have every right to that name whether Greece likes it or not.

The great threat in that area is if we ever take our boot off of Serbia's neck. Heaven knows Europe can't and won't restrain them.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-03-03 12:23:45 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-03-03 12:23:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Oh, please, Aris.

Are you arguing with me, Desert Blondie, about something you think I myself believe, or with the quote I simply gave as an example of the objections?

The Greeks considered the Macedonians to be half civilized barbarians, not fellow Hellenes

Which Greeks considered that? Demosthenes perhaps and other anti-Macedonians like him. What did philo-Macedonians believe?

The Macedonians participated in the Ancient Greek Olympics at a time when only Greeks could participate. This by itself indicates the answer's not nearly as clear-cut as "they were considered barbarians by all".

Where I'm concerned, discussing how Greek the ancient Macedonians were, is similar to discussing how "American" the third-generation descendants of Mexican immigrants are. It's all about politics, about what people *want* them to be, and it's very little about a factual question that can be answered one way or another.

Some more factual question can be answered: Was their language Greek? Yes. Their religion? Yes. Their names? Yes. Their national identity? The reigning dynasty atleast proclaimed itself Greek, I believe we have little knowledge of what the commoner Macedonians identified as.

From my little knowledge of the era I believe their primary difference from the rest of Greece seems to be in their political tradition: when the rest of Greece was a mass of city-states, switching between oligarchy and democracy, Macedonia and Epirus had kept the much earlier Monarchy instead. But this doesn't really help indicate if they were foreigners or simply back.

--

Anyway, my post in #9 wasn't meant to discuss this old matter, it was meant to dispute the claim of Anonymouse in #8. There's no reputable political power in Greece that makes claims on the *territory* of FYRO Macedonia. I'm sure you could find fascists and neonazis that would wish such a thing, but none of them in the parliament or otherwise in power.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 12:54:32 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 12:54:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Aris, stop it with the "if they are not considered x by all, the statement is invalid" argument. You're a better debater than that. This article is where I got it from, among others. I'm not feeling all that great otherwise I would post the others.

The Slavs in the region claim it because they are living in the area called Macedonia. One of my old friend's family was from that area. She called herself Macedonian, not because of any ties to ancient Greek culture, but because of geographical location.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-03-03 1:06:44 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-03-03 1:06:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Desert Blondie> I don't even understand what your point is and what in the world you are disputing among anything I said.

Did I dispute anything you said relating to the *modern* slavic Macedonian nation? Did I dispute their right to name themselves however they wish?

What I disputed was the historical claim you made that the Ancient Greeks considered Macedonians to be "half-civilised barbarians". Not all of them did, and I have no evidence to suggest that a majority did.

As a sidenote, I note that what your link claims is that "the other Greeks might have considered them half-barbarians".

The words "might" and "half-barbarians" are a bit different in meaning to the definitive claim that definitely Greeks viewed them as "half-civilized barbarians".

The situation described is more akin to many people in Europe not seeing Turkey as a European nation, while Turkey itself claims that characterization.

On my part, what I've said, is that since you don't define the criteria for Greekness (or any other nationality), it's impossible to answer the question of "what were they".

It's like asking whether Russia or Turkey are European nations or not. Define your criteria, and then you will find your answer.

I hope you are feeling better soon.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 3:20:00 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 3:20:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Trolling for dollars again, Aris.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-03-03 3:54:45 PM|| 2005-03-03 3:54:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Poison Reverse, I won't even pretend I understand what that sentence means, but if you consider even *this* to have been trolling, then you are beyond even psychiatric help.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 4:01:32 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 4:01:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 The help coming from Macedonia in Iraq is most appreciated. Macedonia has a pop. of just over 2 million. Were the coalition to recieve a proportionate share of help from, say, a country the size of France, we'd expect a force of roughly 960 soliders. From a country the size of Greece, over 170. However, since neither France nor Greece have the political leadership and balls to be on the right side of history, then Macedonia's troops will do quite nicely.

Posted by Mark Z. 2005-03-03 4:14:38 PM|| 2005-03-03 4:14:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 32 guys named 'Alex', perhaps? Asia minor should start to worry.

I like the Taco and Fugue in Asia Minor

Posted by badanov 2005-03-03 4:18:16 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-03-03 4:18:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Thanks, Aris...I hope I am feeling better soon, too. Take care.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-03-03 4:40:36 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-03-03 4:40:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Aris: I misspoke. The problem arises because of a fear of a "greater Macedonia", much like a "greater Serbia". The Greeks are hostile to Macedonia, as are the Bulgarians, because each has a (theoretical) piece of "greater Macedonia", and they are afraid lest someone claim it back on behalf of Macedonia (as Tito seemed interested in doing). The Serbians, for their part, might dream of incorporating Macedonia into their "greater Serbia" territory, though that seems to be stilled for the time being. This leaves the Albanians, who are currently scraping with the Macedonians. But the bottom line is that all five nations are edgy at best about their territories, to the point where NATO decided to deploy troops there just to be safe. As long as nobody does anything, nobody else seems to feel the need to do anything.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-03-03 4:45:06 PM|| 2005-03-03 4:45:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Aris,

This time I am just joking with you. My knowledge of Macedonia is limited, so I will sit back and learn from the thread.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-03-03 6:24:13 PM|| 2005-03-03 6:24:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Well too bad that Alexander the Great forgot to trademark the name "Macedonia".

When will the Bretagne (French Brittany) sue Great Britain (or the other way round)?

Posted by True German Ally 2005-03-03 8:58:29 PM|| 2005-03-03 8:58:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 In a way, -moose, that sounds kind of like the Kurds. The Arabs, Persians, Turks, and Syrians all want to keep their slice under their thumb. Not so much that they want to rule them all, just not have them be unified under someone else's control.

Posted by jackal 2005-03-03 9:50:16 PM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2005-03-03 9:50:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 jackal> Except in this case it's not the *people* that's divided among different countries -- there are no large ethnic Macedonian populations in any of the neighbouring nations as far as I'm aware (a few handful thousands in Greece, I believe, and probably even fewer in Albania or Bulgaria -- in comparison to the millions of ethnic Macedonians in their own independent nation that's an insignificant amount)

It's only the *territory* of the Ancient Macedonia that's divided between three countries, most of it to Greece, 40% or so to the Republic of Macedonia, and a tiny amount to Bulgaria.

The Second Balkan War was fought over control of the wider Macedonian area -- Greece+Serbia vs Bulgaria. Bulgaria lost and was denied access to the Aegean. Greece+Serbia divided the territory. Serbia got control over the slavic population in what is now the Republic of Macedonia.

Then, decades later, under Tito, he cut off a sizeable chunk of the Serbia-controlled regions to create what he named the "Republic of Macedonia". Many Greeks believe that he did this for imperialistic purposes -- namely proclaiming the whole region as the rightful possession of one of the Yugoslavian peoples and thus seek himself access to the Aegean.

How much of that motive is true, and how much is just a paranoid fear of Greek chauvinists, I have no clue. I've never studied Tito's doings and attitude in detail.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-03-03 10:36:04 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-03-03 10:36:04 PM|| Front Page Top

23:17 trailing wife
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