Article

2005-03-18 Arabia

US, Saudis progressing on religious freedom

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Posted by Fred 2005-03-18 00:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 When Jews can live there safely, then we'll know they've turned the corner. When there are Shia and Salifi mosques in Mecca, they will be on the way. Anything less is just words, which they will throw around recklessly as they attempt to divert Bush with bonbons.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-03-18 4:27:11 AM|| 2005-03-18 4:27:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Even if the MSM can't see the elephant in the room the Arab states clearly can. Bush invades an Arab country and throws its exleadership in the slammer in defiance of the UN and (tranzi) world opinion. SA's primary interest is how high it has to jump in order to clear the safe from invasion barrier.

Posted by phil_b 2005-03-18 5:47:03 AM|| 2005-03-18 5:47:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Phil_b.
The problem with your argument is that Saudi Arabia isn't a country, let alone a nation---it's just a region dominated by the heirs of el Saud. If they let loose, even a little bit, it's the knife for them.

Posted by gromgorru 2005-03-18 6:07:46 AM|| 2005-03-18 6:07:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 gromgorru, you are looking at SA through westerners eyes. I have never been, but I have lived for many years in Asia. The Sauds have a godlike position as the protectors of the holy sites and as I have pointed out before deification of the leadership is the surest way to achieve a dynasty. Your argument would apply to Assad or Saddam but the Sauds can claim god selected them and that is a powerful argument in a religous society irrespective of its cohesion as a nation.

The Sauds may fear their own citizens but they fear the Americans more. They know they are only an oil supply interruption away from a US protective force in the Eastern oilfields.

Posted by phil_b 2005-03-18 6:28:51 AM|| 2005-03-18 6:28:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 gromgorru, you are looking at SA through westerners eyes. I have never been, but I have lived for many years in Asia. The Sauds have a godlike position as the protectors of the holy sites and as I have pointed out before deification of the leadership is the surest way to achieve a dynasty.

I hardly know where to start.
(a) Observing Asians teaches you nada about Arab societies.
The first managed to surpass tribal stage of development on their own, the second never did (the difference between perciving life as non-zero vs. zero sum game).
(b) Hashemites were protectors of the holy sites before El Saud, as well as direct discendands of the Prothet. It didn't stop their overtrow by el Saud. It didn't stop Paleos killing Abdulah & trying to kill Hussein once a month (or Iraqis exterminating the other branch).
Islam is just not the kind of religion that has semidevine dynasties (read up on califate period) . The only reason Saudis kept power, so far, is because they've been sharing the petrodollar bounty. Now, it's running out (the income is, more or less, the same---but the population has tripled).

p.s. I haven't been to Asia. However, I've been observing Homo Arabicus in action, and reading up on their history, since the first Intifada.

Posted by gromgorru 2005-03-18 7:00:14 AM|| 2005-03-18 7:00:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Saudi Arabia isn't a country, let alone a nation

"Tribes with flags" is the phrase someone used. Seems to apply here.

Posted by SteveS 2005-03-18 7:13:06 AM|| 2005-03-18 7:13:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Now, it's running out (the income is, more or less, the same While hard data on Saudi oil revenues and production are hard to obtain, its clear that SA oil revenues have surged (and at least doubled over the last 2 years) and are running at least a half billion USD a day.

Posted by phil_b 2005-03-18 8:38:02 AM|| 2005-03-18 8:38:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Tribes With Flags by Stephen Glass, I do believe. (Mr. Wife is painting the office, so all the books are stacked elsewhere, and I'm not to touch them until he's done.) Written after his stint as a reporter based in Lebanon, as I recall, in which he openly admits that all the Arab world based reporters including him lie through their teeth in order to maintain access and not be killed while over there. He gives examples of reporting about Israel to support his accusation. An interesting book, but smacks a bit too much of the butcher's apology to the pigs for my taste.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-03-18 11:57:30 AM|| 2005-03-18 11:57:30 AM|| Front Page Top

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