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2005-04-15 Europe

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Posted by Deacon Blues 2005-04-15 9:19:53 AM|| || Front Page|| [8 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I donât quite understand the last paragraph

At this point it appears that the "No" people appear much more determined than the "Yes" people. If there is a rainy day, it will be the yes people who will stay at home. If they have to choose between voting and visting Mom (the election is cheduled for Mother's day) it will be the No people who will postpone their cisit to Mom (BTW flower vendors are angry against Chirac for scheduling that vote during the day they will make their biggest sales. Expect a massive No between them). In fact at this point the expections of the Yes are between people who don't track politics closely and thus are more likely to allow themselves being led by MSM, politicians and movie starlets.

Posted by JFM 2005-04-15 10:28:53 AM|| 2005-04-15 10:28:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Sounds to me like the French are catching on to AngloSaxon style democracy. You make your case in the marketplace of ideas.

Posted by phil_b 2005-04-15 10:52:41 AM|| 2005-04-15 10:52:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 We face a question fundamental to the future of our continent, he said - do not muddle it up with passing day-to-day political concerns.

So, does this mean Chirac is basically telling opponents of the EU constitution to "keep quiet"?

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-04-15 11:15:21 AM|| 2005-04-15 11:15:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 ...he warned that a No vote would be disastrous.
It would destroy French influence at the heart of Europe, and turn France into the black sheep of the European family.

This could be one of the best things for the French-they need to get rid of the fear of being a black sheep. Being so hung up on what others think hobbles you. There are much worse things in life than what others misidentify you as being.

Like other quirks in life, a no vote could actually end up delivering more of the very self-determination and self-definition the French seek so much now. France has become rigid and hypervigilant-it's time for a reassessment and a change.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-04-15 11:24:05 AM|| 2005-04-15 11:24:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Liberation accuses Mr Chirac of addressing the people of France like an avuncular schoolmaster Amusing. Avuncular is not quite the word I would have chosen...

Jules, you make an interesting point. Although I would argue that France already is the black sheep of Europe, and they need to accept that it can't be hidden. With regard to such things they seem to think that if they put their hands over everyone else's eyes, nobody will be able to see.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-04-15 11:55:21 AM|| 2005-04-15 11:55:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Is Mother's day actually celebrated in France? I guess a lot fewer are burdened with it after the past couple of summers.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-04-15 12:29:40 PM|| 2005-04-15 12:29:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Mrs D-:), True.

One more reason why it is important to focus on the right priorities.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-04-15 12:33:50 PM|| 2005-04-15 12:33:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I have, after a long time of deliberation, decided to campaign against the EU Constitution. This "Constitution" is not really terrible as such, but it shifts more power to less democratic political structures. It speeds up an unnecessary process of "unification", which does nothing for the different peoples in Europe, but guarantees work for eurocrats for decades.

I am much closer to the position of the Czech president Vaclav Klaus, who sees Europe as a place of free exchange of ideas, people and trade. This is where Europe is best. A unification of Finns, Portuguese and Germans doesn't make anyone's life better.

I distrust the EU much more than before. I don't believe in an European Arrest Warrant, that undermines my (formerly) constitutionally guaranteed right of getting legal protection in the country I live in and am a citizen of. I don't belief in treaties that rob me of my stable currency to give me something else with promises and fair weather guarantees that are broken when the first little storm turns up.

Europe should be a free, democratic association of peoples. But there is no "European Demos", no "European People". And because there isn't, we need no European Constitution. Our national ones served us well.

Final point: Something that Valery Giscard d'Estaing thinks up, can't be good for us. I have come to know this guy during my time in Paris.

Non, merci

The French are probably voting down the Constitution for the wrong reasons. Mais Ã§a m'est bien egal.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-04-15 1:03:23 PM|| 2005-04-15 1:03:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 What's the most confusing holiday in France?

Sorry JFM.... it's a cheap shot.

Posted by Shipman 2005-04-15 1:56:21 PM|| 2005-04-15 1:56:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Though Chirac is talking out of his rear end, a chronic condition, He means every word of it.

What is wrong with the Saxons and Angles? If I was in the UK or Germany I would heed this as a huge red flag as to what the EU constitution is truly about.

TGA said "Something that Valery Giscard d'Estaing thinks up, can't be good for us." I say Amen to that.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-04-15 2:12:10 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-04-15 2:12:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Chirac, Paris and the French intellectual elite do not represent France anymore than Clinton, Kerry, the NYT/WaPO, and the eastern establishment represent America. France is very divided on this according to my brother in law who is French and lives in the Southwest of France. They sincerely believe that the EU constitution will bring unhelpful "harmonization" on issues such as agriculture (never mess with a frog's cheese and wine), taxes (never mess with a frong's ability to milk the system)and foreign policy (never mess with a frog's appreciation of the hun).

Posted by Jack is Back! 2005-04-15 3:36:54 PM|| 2005-04-15 3:36:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 The EU project was far more appealing to the EU publics when it was focused on securing benefits to Europeans within Europe: the elimination of military rivalry, free movement of goods and people, some degree of harmonization of laws in the intellectual property and other spaces, and not least, transfers (from rich Germans mainly) to poor nations and low-income small farmers in order to lift living standards while avoiding the steam-roller approach to small towns and villages that has erased all regional differences and regional charm from most of the US.

All of these are internal-facing. They don't touch on foreign policy or immigration policy or
economic "competitiveness" vis-a-vis the US, Japan and now China. Arguably, the EU was also a "magnet" designed to use soft power to draw the East European brethren out of the soviet orbit, but this was never a core reason for setting up the EU. Had it been, I'm sure a few of the EU's architects might have paid a little more attention to the likelihood that Poles and Czechs and Hungarians who suffered under command economies would have no love for French-style economic statism and dirigisme.

The lesson here is that so long as the EU remains focused on relations within and among EU member states, it does fine. The populace is happy and the elites generally do a decent job for them.

The project becomes unsustainable when the elites start to chase rainbows beyond Europe's borders. The people don't buy this vision of creating an EU "moral superpower" and economic fortress that can stare down the US and Japan, play a major role in the middle east and a lesser one in the far east. Pretty tough to persuade someone to take up the burdens of global greatness when he's too dedicated to his 8 weeks of vacation, convenience, and pleasure-seeking to be bothered with rescuing grandma from asphyxiation.

Paradoxically it's the EU's huge success in the social-economic area that is destroying its ambitions in the foreign-policy-unification area. Even more ironic that it will be the French people who rejected the essentially French messianic dream of EU superpower grandeur.

Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-04-15 4:45:39 PM|| 2005-04-15 4:45:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Problem with the EU is that in fact people in it have three widely divergent views. We have the French and the Germans who look it as a way of world domination through the economic mass they get with the agregation of smaller and poorer countries, then there are some small countries whose politicians get theoir only moment of glory (think in the ~~chief clown~~ PM of Luxembourg, he is elected by just a couple hundred thoiusand people and suddenly he becomes a person whose voice is heard through the world), and then there are the Southern an Eastern Europe countries who see a great opportunity to get money from rich Europe.

Posted by JFM 2005-04-15 5:46:02 PM|| 2005-04-15 5:46:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Really?
Who is the PM of Luxembourg?
I have no damn idea and don't care. Its too small to be seriously considered a country. Hell its not much bigger than the nation of Sealand.
or their strange site

Of course its main business is hosting offshore internet gambling so it is not much different than Luxembourg in persuing productive business. And both are a lots less atractive than Vegas or Reno.

Posted by 3dc 2005-04-15 7:08:28 PM|| 2005-04-15 7:08:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Not much is less attractive than Reno. She was uglier than Shalala.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-04-15 7:29:38 PM|| 2005-04-15 7:29:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 This isn't a rejection of the EU; it's a rejection of the French dream of EU as Superpower. This is a superb development, good for Europe and for the world. Better that Europe remain rich and become humble and focused on its own internal problems.

Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-04-15 7:37:59 PM|| 2005-04-15 7:37:59 PM|| Front Page Top

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