Article

2005-09-19 Israel-Palestine

French FM : "Yes, but were there no Jews who were deported from England? [during WWII]Â»

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by anonymous5089 2005-09-19 11:50|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 More proof that the left is completely ignorant of history and actual facts.

Posted by mmurray821 2005-09-19 12:58|| 2005-09-19 12:58|| Front Page Top

#2 Actually, our Dear Leader and his UMP party are supposed to be *conservative* (though el Chi's military files cited him as "communist" during his service, back in the olden days, and though he's embraced anti-globo worlview, cf. Galouzeau "de villepin"'s petition for an international tax on air travel)...
In the 80's Shirak was supposedly inspired by Reagan and Thatcher and brievely flirted with the nationalist FN (he's been since an avowed adversary, for unspeakable reasons IMHO), for example when he said that the "odors and the noises of large muslim families on the dole" drove french workers crazy... but to get elected to presidency in 1995, he's fully succombed to his deep socialist tendancies (plus he's a "gaullist", ergo a statist).

Douste-Blazy is supposed to be christian center-right, by the way.

They're not the left, they're the *right*, which should tell you how shifted to the left is the whole french political landscape. There is no credible right, period.

Posted by anonymous5089 2005-09-19 13:11|| 2005-09-19 13:11|| Front Page Top

#3 The French seem to be doing very well at whitewashing their role in WWII.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-09-19 13:12|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-09-19 13:12|| Front Page Top

#4 Strangely enough, this fellow is not of the left but of the right.

The French right is and always was more than a little anti-Semitic. The Dreyfus case of a hundred years ago was in one sense a symptom of this. These days the French left has become anti-Semitic as well, so there really is no political home for French Jews.

Posted by buwaya 2005-09-19 13:12|| 2005-09-19 13:12|| Front Page Top

#5 God, it must be hard for the French to remember that not everyone surrenders instantly. I mean, in their personal experience, since Napoleon everyone else is stronger than them, and is constantly kicking the crap out of them. I guess they just can't see any different possibility.

Also, if everyone deported Jews, then how could you fault the poor French from doing what everyone else did. A way to reduce their own blameworthyness.

Posted by Mark E 2005-09-19 13:24|| 2005-09-19 13:24|| Front Page Top

#6 Channel Islands, IIRC was occupied and collaborated. Dont think there were any Jews there.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-09-19 14:03|| 2005-09-19 14:03|| Front Page Top

#7 I doubt it. No Chinese food...

Posted by tu3031 2005-09-19 14:21|| 2005-09-19 14:21|| Front Page Top

#8 i think youve got the causality reversed :)

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-09-19 14:31|| 2005-09-19 14:31|| Front Page Top

#9 Yes there were Jews in the Channel Islands and most were deported. The Islanders really had no choice although they protested it. Many of the non-resident English were also deported as were those with previous military experience.

See: "The Model Occupation" by Madeline Bunting

Posted by DanNY 2005-09-19 14:37|| 2005-09-19 14:37|| Front Page Top

#10 "Many historians consider that an even worse crime was committed in Vichy-controlled southern France, where the Germans had no say. In August 1942, gendarmes were sent to hunt down foreign refugees. Families were seized in their houses or captured after manhunts across the countryside. About 11,000 Jews were transported to Drancy in the Paris suburbs, the main transit centre for Auschwitz. Children as young as three were separated from their mothers - gendarmes used batons and hoses - before being sent to Germany under French guard, after weeks of maltreatment.

During 1942, officials sent 41,951 Jews to Germany, although the deportations came to a temporary halt when some religious leaders warned Vichy against possible public reaction. Afterwards, arrests were carried out more discreetly. In 1943 and 1944, the regime deported 31,899 people - the last train left in August 1944, as Allied troops entered Paris. Out of the total of 75,721 deportees, contained in a register drawn up by a Jewish organisation, fewer than 2,000 survived."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/genocide/jewish_deportation_04.shtml

Posted by Glineng Cralet2723 2005-09-19 14:40|| 2005-09-19 14:40|| Front Page Top

#11 Yes... If that'll make the French happier about their "experience" in "dealing" with Germany in WW2, they can take solice in the fact that those snooty British went through the same thing in those incredibly important places; the Channel Islands. I mean, we all saw those photos of Hitler walking through the streets of the quickly surrendered and pacified capitol of Great Britain, didn't we? Oh, that's right. He never did. He only did that through Paris.

Posted by Mark E 2005-09-19 15:10|| 2005-09-19 15:10|| Front Page Top

#12 Fuck Off, Frog-Boy.

Posted by mojo">mojo 2005-09-19 15:25|| 2005-09-19 15:25|| Front Page Top

#13 One of the things the French lobe is joke about how uncult are the Americans. But it is France who has a Foreign Minister (ie a person who, nearly by definition is supposed to be well educated in geographical and historical matters of foreign countries) who doesn't know that the UK didn't deport Jews because er, it was at war with Germany...

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-09-19 16:03|| 2005-09-19 16:03|| Front Page Top

#14 Context to Mark E:

In case yopu didn't notice the Wehrmacht didn't have the Channel to cross in order to reach London. Paris didn't have that luck. Oh, and while we are at it, if we judge by the piss-poor pezrformance of the American Army at Kasserine (despite having had the benefit of over two years of studying the Blitzkrieg), America wouldn't have fared that good in 1940 without the Atlantic for stopping the Germans.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-09-19 16:10|| 2005-09-19 16:10|| Front Page Top

#15 Glineng Cralet2723

You should provide a bit of context: at the end of the war over 70% of French Jews had survived (and I am speaking of those in France proper, not about those of North Africa); In Belgium the survival rate was only 1 in three (ie two times less). In the Netherlands it was only 1 in 5 (nearly four times less). So perhaps the French put a little less enthousiasm in turning Jews that some other people who don't get half the bashing.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-09-19 16:15|| 2005-09-19 16:15|| Front Page Top

#16 Yes....the French love the jews.

Posted by Mark E 2005-09-19 16:19|| 2005-09-19 16:19|| Front Page Top

#17 JFM
My dad and his 10th Mountain Divison destroyed the SS in Italy short history here
My uncle landed 3 days after d-day then fought all the way to the end inculding the battle of the bulge where he was one of three in his company to walk out alive. (incidently he told me that his worst engagements were with the French girlfriends of the german troops. They fought to the death while their boyfriends withdrew. He didn't like the French.)

Many members of my family tree fought all over Europe and Asia. Some didn't make it.

One half of the men in my mom's high school class died.

Your Kasserine pass statement was really low and not meaningful.

The women of the US built the weapons that the US, China, USSR, and the rest of the allies used to win. The US taxpayers funded the war and the Manhatten project (to end it - yes I know you europeans think the Japanese were nothing... ask the US troops who fought in both theaters - the Japanese were a much tougher enemy to fight.)

I could go on and on but I will say that I think the Marshall Plan was a mistake. We should have used the money to help pull South Am. up to modern levels and secured our own hemisphere.

Posted by 3dc 2005-09-19 16:32|| 2005-09-19 16:32|| Front Page Top

#18 Well, he is not entirely wrong. Jews from the Channel Islands, which were the only British territory under German occupation, were in fact persecuted and in some cases deported into German concentration camps. Also 1000 Jewish slave workers were (among others) in fact deported to Jersey and Guernsey to work on the fortifications.

If I remember well they are represented at Yad Vashem.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-09-19 16:36|| 2005-09-19 16:36|| Front Page Top

#19 I dont think the point of mentioning Kasserine was to diss the US army, so much as to point out that if the French army had had time, they might have improved their performance as well. That they did not have such time, was due to politics and geography, not to any lack of courage or skill on the part of French soldiers.

It was Winston Churchill, who, as France was falling, called De Gaulle "L'homme du destin"

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-09-19 16:41|| 2005-09-19 16:41|| Front Page Top

#20 A recent RG (that police intelligence) report estimated that only 7% of the numerous and antisemite acts are done by the far-right, and 93% by "disgruntled muslim youths".

Believe me, french per se are not jew-haters. I do not say that there are not some anti-jew prejudice in the catholic right (for example my very nice and likeable grandmother is anti-Israel, her rationale being "they killed the Christ"..., but the father of her grand grand son and my brother in law is jewish, and she really likes him) and in the far right in general, but this is marginal, and is not significant. I repeat, there is some prejudice, just as in the USA I take, but there is no a "french" antisemite streak.

On the other hand, it is true that the official party line (gvt and MSM) is antizionist and anti-Israel, the demonization of Israel and the victimization of the paleo being very much a standard feature of news reporting (that's what the french public is forcefed), and that really gave a free pass and "justified" to the muslim's hatred and acts of violence... much to the dismay of the authorities; the so-called and very artificial "warming" between Israel and France is certainly partly due to that, the pro-arab and anti-israel line was having blowback effects in terms of civil peace back in France.

Mr. Taguieff, a french scholar, did an excellent work on the theme of the "judeophobia", the new antisemitism of the muslims and western far left and far right, based on victimization and anti-racism (jews being seen as the new nazis, and the paleos as the news jews).

By the way, my personnal uneducated theory is that anti-americanism (which is very much associated with antisemitism disguised as antizionsim in the left) has taken the place of traditionnal, catholic antisemitism (that is, not race-based), with the same stereotypes : americans are greedy, they start wars, they're physically unfit (ok, this one is true if I judge by the obesity numbers ;-)) and degenerated, they're cowards who can't fight, they rule the world through stolen money,... ad nauseam.

Posted by anonymous5089 2005-09-19 16:48|| 2005-09-19 16:48|| Front Page Top

#21 JFM, it seems you are either french or francophone, no? I thought a few comments were in order to help you overcome your woeful ignorance about the American Military.

See, since we didn't DECLARE WAR on the nazis in 1939 and since we were NOT a neighbor, does it matter if the US was ready for battle in 1940?

In any case, did anything happen after Kasserine Pass, JFM?

Like, oh, say....kicking the nazis out of Africa causing over 200,000 casualties? Or kicking the nazis out of Sicily? And then Italy? And then France? And the low countries? And bombing them by day for several years?

And where were the vaunted french finghing forces during the war? I will tell you where: bring up the rear behind the Amis and Englisch. Well, until we let them parade into Paris, as if they had actually won it in battle.

This at the same time we were defeating Imperial Japan almost alone.

One final note. American units generally did rather poorly until they were 'blooded'. After that, they generally whipped everyone's ass they ever faced.

Posted by Brett 2005-09-19 16:50|| 2005-09-19 16:50|| Front Page Top

#22 We are drifting away from the subject here. The Foreign Minister of France did not know whether Jews had been deported from the UK to Nazi death camps during World War 2.
The limited exception of the Channel Islands is not relevant because he persisted even after being told that England had not been conquered, implying that he believed in the possibility that the British might have deported Jews to Nazi death camps on their own accord.
This is just pure, unadulterated abysmal ignorance and I think it is fair to hold a whole country responsble for it when it comes from a high official of the government.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2005-09-19 16:52|| http://www.nuclearspace.com]">[http://www.nuclearspace.com] 2005-09-19 16:52|| Front Page Top

#23 Somehow I'm a bit sceptical. Not everything the Canard reports is to be taken at face value

Posted by True German Ally 2005-09-19 16:57|| 2005-09-19 16:57|| Front Page Top

#24 "We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
--Winston Churchill

Anybody ever translate this into French, or are they missing the word for "fight" in their language?

The Euros always argue from the lowest common denominator... Others deported Jews, so how can you find fault with our collaboration... This doesn't obviate the fact that their own gov't leaders don't know or intentionally ignore their own history. Weak.

Posted by Mark E 2005-09-19 17:11|| 2005-09-19 17:11|| Front Page Top

#25 Isn't the "Canard" a lot like the "Onion"?... I'm with TGA... I don't think much of the average French politico, but I'd want a lot more proof that this Douste-Blazy is that much of an insular, uneducated f**king moron before I credit this story entirely.
So, is he that much of an insular, uneducated f**king moron?

Posted by Sgt. Mom">Sgt. Mom 2005-09-19 17:16|| www.sgtstryker.com]">[www.sgtstryker.com] 2005-09-19 17:16|| Front Page Top

#26 The Canard is a satirical magazine (fun to read actually) and they do love to report the "gaffes" (blunders) of politicians. Sometimes it's a bit hard to decide where the report stops and satire begins.

It may be true but frankly, it sounds a bit strange to me. This guy is a medical doctor, he sure as well went to a decent lycÃ©e, and they do teach history there. You don't get to be French foreign minister without knowing history. It's the most important thing to know anyway...

Never underestimate the idioticy of politicians but verify...lol

Posted by True German Ally 2005-09-19 17:26|| 2005-09-19 17:26|| Front Page Top

#27 Mark E

the British could withdrwa to the other side of bthe channel, lick their wounds and then try and try and try agin in the deserrt against a relatively small German force until they got it right.

Same thing for the Americans: they could afford to have their asses kicked, that would not lead to the Germans occupying the factories who were feeding the German Army, not even, given the limited size of the German expeditionary corps to the Americans being thrown tpo the sea.

For the Russians they spent 1941, withdrawing much faster and being captured in far greater numbers than the French in 1940. But Russia was so much bigger. De Gaulle said, after being treated in a condescending way by the Russians: "if we had had two thousand miles for falling back WE would be lecturing the Russians."

Now if you had studied the campaign of France you would know that even if the French soldiers had not the same enthousiasm than in 1914, it was the generals not the soldiers who lost the war. And that the French soldiers did not do that bad at that part about dying for the country: three thousand a day, 120,000 in the whole campaign ie over two Vietnams in only 40 days. The part where they did it bad was about having the Germans die for their country: some five French soldiers fell for every German killed.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-09-19 17:46|| 2005-09-19 17:46|| Front Page Top

#28 JFM is correct about Kasserine Pass. And both defeats were more defeats of leadership, not forces. The major difference is that after Kasserine we did not give up.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-19 17:52|| 2005-09-19 17:52|| Front Page Top

#29 Mark E told:

Anybody ever translate this into French, or are they missing the word for "fight" in their language?

I suggest you visit Verdun before you make that kind of stupid and racist remarks.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-09-19 17:56|| 2005-09-19 17:56|| Front Page Top

#30 Mrs Davis

My point was that Kasserine showed how badly prapared were the Americans but it was a small scale fight with limited stakes.

While when France lost its own "Kasserine Pass", what was at stake was teh anihilation of the French Army and the falling of the French weapon and ammo factories in German hands.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-09-19 18:01|| 2005-09-19 18:01|| Front Page Top

#31 Mark E.
battle: 1297, from Old French bataille
More questions?

Posted by True German Ally 2005-09-19 18:25|| 2005-09-19 18:25|| Front Page Top

#32 JFM is right on WWI. For the most part, the French soldier fought very well and bravely. The problem is their leadership sucked monkey butt and the average soldier finally refused to attack in suicidal waves anymore. Unfortunately for France, WWI not only drained their manpower, but the national will to fight. The German breakout of the Ardennes could have been blunted and stopped with an armored fist since the French tanks were better than the German tanks and the French had the will to fight. Report after report from that time talks about the French just giving up and not wanting to fight. After WWII, the French soldier fought well, but the leadership sucking monkey butt came back into play and the French army has never been the same. Sadly, the best French unit now isn't even made up of Frenchmen.

Posted by mmurray821 2005-09-19 18:35|| 2005-09-19 18:35|| Front Page Top

#33 Been to Verdun, JFM...

Posted by Sgt. Mom">Sgt. Mom 2005-09-19 18:38|| www.sgtstryker.com]">[www.sgtstryker.com] 2005-09-19 18:38|| Front Page Top

#34 JFM is one of Rantburg's loyal French correspondents, and a charming and knowledgeable one at that. Please don't attack him just because you don't like what he says.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-09-19 19:59|| 2005-09-19 19:59|| Front Page Top

#35 I think he's being attacked because of what his country says, whether he agrees with it or not. I like JFM, his comments and some of his country persons I have met. But I readily admit I detest the nation made up of the rest.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-19 20:05|| 2005-09-19 20:05|| Front Page Top

#36 hmmm - I for some reason thought JFM was female....dunno why

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-09-19 20:54|| 2005-09-19 20:54|| Front Page Top

#37 The past is history - good for reference, but lousy for making decisions on today's problems. If this idiot actually DID make the statements attributed to him, he should be out of the French government by sunup tomorrow. Unfortunately, that won't happen, as the French government isn't concerned about the stupidity of their members, but how much they can rob from the French people.

Kasserine Pass was the first time American troops actually saw battle. My father was there. It wasn't just leadership - the American troops didn't know what to expect or how to react. The same thing happened at Tarawa. Both were learning experiences. Normandy showed exactly how much they learned.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2005-09-19 20:58|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2005-09-19 20:58|| Front Page Top

#38 JFM, what was the excuse in 1870? It took von Moltke from 4 August to 19 September to get to Paris. 1914? The only reason the Germans didn't reach Paris in six weeks in 1914 was that Nicholas II sacrificed Russia by attacking before his armies were fully mobilized and forced the Germans to divert forces to the East. 1940? Germany attacked 10 May and entered Paris 19 June. Six weeks seems to be about the time required for German armies to get to Paris. There is a reason why the national bird of France is the Coq Galois.

Posted by RWV 2005-09-19 23:04|| 2005-09-19 23:04|| Front Page Top

#39 It would be as grave a mistake to confuse the sentiments of the French political class with the views of the nation overall as it would be to take the view of the NYT editorial page board as symptomatic of Americans' views. Le Monde, the Enarques who run the country, the rest of the political-intellectual elite are extraordinarily cynical, corrupt and hostile to the US and Israel in ways that most ordinary (non-muslim) Frenchmen are not and never will be.

Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-09-19 23:20|| 2005-09-19 23:20|| Front Page Top

00:03 Douglas Adams
00:02 john
23:57 11A5S
23:50 mac
23:49 Zhang Fei
23:46 Zhang Fei
23:44 Zhang Fei
23:44 jules 2
23:35 Alaska Paul
23:31 Redneck Jim
23:30 Zhang Fei
23:27 11A5S
23:26 john
23:20 john
23:20 thibaud (aka lex)
23:19 RWV
23:18 C-Low
23:16 C-Low
23:15 RWV
23:06 thibaud (aka lex)
23:05 Zhang Fei
23:04 RWV
23:03 thibaud (aka lex)
23:01 SteveS