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2006-07-26 Home Front: Culture Wars

Study: Vehement anti-Zionists Are Actually anti-Jewish

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Posted by Anonymoose 2006-07-26 00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Riiiight. A rather conveniant (and old) argument.

Posted by Hupuse Snamp6542 2006-07-26 00:29|| 2006-07-26 00:29|| Front Page Top

#2 Riiiight. A rather telling comment.

Posted by Closh Sputle8577 2006-07-26 00:54|| 2006-07-26 00:54|| Front Page Top

#3 Riiiight. A suggestion of bias, but no proof. Jackass.

Posted by cruiser 2006-07-26 01:18|| 2006-07-26 01:18|| Front Page Top

#4 Proof? LOL! Idiot.

Posted by Hupuse Snamp6542 2006-07-26 01:34|| 2006-07-26 01:34|| Front Page Top

#5 LOL. Is that supposed to be a substantive reposte?

It's about as substantive as the original brain fart. Slimy innuendo doesn't cut it, dickhead. Put up or fuck off.

Posted by cruiser 2006-07-26 01:48|| 2006-07-26 01:48|| Front Page Top

#6 I'm with cruiser. You didn't offer anything of substance, you just slimed the thread with innuendo.

Posted by Champ Angeger5024 2006-07-26 01:54|| 2006-07-26 01:54|| Front Page Top

#7 And in other news the rain is wet.

Think about it: you will NEVER seen one of those people complain about ANY other nationalism (including say Arab nationalism), you will NEVER see them complain about Turk occupation of Cypriotic lands or say, about Arab occupation of Kurdjsk lands and in tyhe same vain they will colmplain about fate of Arab minorities in Israel (the onluy Arabs who can vote) instead of about the Copts in Egypt and about Israeli atrocities each time a Palestinians suffers acratch all while Sudanese are being massacred.

Oh and I forgot that ALL the Palestinian organizations have proclaimùied their goal of a second Shoah. You you also should see the violence of the anti-Jewish posts in some blogs those guys who support them are notr merely anti-Jewish: theyn hate Jews as much as hard-core Nazis did.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2006-07-26 02:05|| 2006-07-26 02:05|| Front Page Top

#8 I think it's a mis-diagnosis to say that the moonbats are anti-semites. Most of the anti-Israel sentiment on the far Left is different mental condition - it afflicts many Jews as well. The condition is that their ideology corrupts their thinking causing mass hallucination. When they look at Hamas or Hezbollah or even al-Qaida, they don't see the Hezbollah that you and I see, the one that exists. They see Che and Fidel, or Nelson Mandela or maybe even Luke Skywalker and the rebellion - meaning that Israel and the US are "The Empire" (as the famous lefty book by Hart and Negri is titled). Nothing that Hezbollah does or says can penetrate this delusion, no matter how badly they misbehave.

I don't think it does the Right any service to go around casting accusations of anti-Semitism. That's just a mirror of the Left's tactics in smearing others as racists. The people who hear it don't buy it. When you argue with a moonbat about Israel, stick to other pro-Israel arguments, the simple bed-rock facts: Hezbollah is not a liberation movement. They are insane fanatics. They are the enemy of everything we hold dear. We, being lefties and righties, Christians and Jews, atheists and agnostics. They are also the enemy of sane, moderate Arabs and Muslims.

Of course with people like Pat Buchanan...then they really do hate Jews.

Posted by Monsieur Moonbat 2006-07-26 04:08|| 2006-07-26 04:08|| Front Page Top

#9 M. Moonbat, I'm going to make what might appear a relatively arcane point. I agree with what you say, except I would differentiate anti-semitism from being anti-semitic. On the Left anti-semitism is reflexsive. It doesn't represent a deep jew hating core of the true anti-semite.

I'd characterize it as mental sloppiness that anyone (every one) on the Left needs to make sense of their nonsensical world view.

In our modern world, for the Left, every one is a victim and therefore there has to be a victimizer. These are vaguely defined - big business, government and the Middle East it's the Jews (when it's not the Americans or the 'colonial powers').

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-07-26 05:35|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-07-26 05:35|| Front Page Top

#10 THe Left is, ultimately, anti-God. The end point of Socialism is to replace all other loyalties with loyalty to the state. The state directs all, becomes the source of all rights and all benevolence. God is a competitor to the state, so God and the worship of God must be suppressed.

Given all that, little wonder that the Left is so reflexively hostile to the Chosen People of God.

(Do note, also, that the Left isn't exactly friendly to us "fundo breeder Christers" either.)

Posted by Mike 2006-07-26 05:44|| 2006-07-26 05:44|| Front Page Top

#11 We can think of it then as a subset of antisemitism, Monsieur Moonbat, or a reliable predictor -- that's what this study says. The summary above says that the two are statistically linked, with correlative increases in intensity. Whether moonbat anti-Zionistic sentiments predispose a person to extending the hatred to all Jews (even the one's own Jewishness, clearly), or whether unacknowledged antisemitism leads a person into hating the only Jewish state does not appear to have been addressed in this study. As I think about the question of causality -- the study design to tease out cause v. effect for this kind of thinking would have to be large scale, longitudinal from childhood (at least two decades I think, to properly cover adult-onset changes in thinking), address psychiatric as well as psychological issues, familial attitudes and issues that might predispose to such thought (or non-thought?) processes... and controlled against other common bigotries (eg. in the US, black v. white racism -- or control for race and keep the study participants all white, sexism -- do such people also get stuck at the boys/girls are icky/stupid stage?). The results, too, are likely to be highly controversial -- think of the screams of rage if it turns out that strong antisemitism/anti-Zionism and similar strong world-conspiracy bigotries result from a subtle but debilitating brain chemistry imbalance or lesion, easily identifiable once we know what to look for, and possibly fixed pharmacologically or with a simple surgery to remove a lesion or microadenoma... or identifiable but unfixable.

Of course, I'm not even an amateur in the fields of psychology, statistics or study design, so make of all that what you will. ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2006-07-26 05:53|| 2006-07-26 05:53|| Front Page Top

#12 Ah, we can only dream; an operation to cure Leftism. Personally, I think a healthy dose of reality requiring personal responsibility would work.

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-07-26 05:59|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-07-26 05:59|| Front Page Top

#13 Prefrontal lobotomy would be just fine for me, as long as the care of the drooling idiots resulting from the operation (how can you tell the difference?) is left to their family.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-07-26 06:04|| 2006-07-26 06:04|| Front Page Top

#14 It may be old news, but the stduy does make some valid points. It's not really fair to dismiss it out of hand. As to the apparent contradiction of Jews themselves being anti-Jewish, the phenomenon of the self-loathing Jew is well documented.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-07-26 08:23|| 2006-07-26 08:23|| Front Page Top

#15 Leftists & Islamists suffer from basically the same mental illness: malignant narcissism that disables the ability to feel empathy or develop a conscience, and assures them of their own superiority. This blinding self-absorption and misplaced feelings of superiority leads to self-reinforcing delusions of being persecuted and victimized. This naturally leads to wild conspiracy theories about who's doing the persecuting and victimizing, and of course the oppressors have to be masterfully diabolical to plan and execute such broad and complex plots. The depth of evil they imagine in their oppressors in turn justifies any means necessary to resist it.

So it's plain why their tortured logic inevitably winds up in the same place. The diagnosis is the same for lefties as for terrorists, calling for the same treatment: copious doses of lead.

Posted by ST 2006-07-26 08:48|| 2006-07-26 08:48|| Front Page Top

#16 Sometimes those of us involved with non-Jewish groups must make hard decisions even without invoking labels.

Labels? Ohhh, you mean like old-fashioned Jew-hater, anti-Israel, stupid and/or treacherous, functional anti-Semitism, and bigots? Yeah, that might be helpful for a more reasoned discourse.

Posted by DepotGuy 2006-07-26 09:41|| 2006-07-26 09:41|| Front Page Top

#17 I nominate training wife for the Bloids Chair of Logical Psychology at Rantburg University.

Posted by Quana 2006-07-26 10:13|| 2006-07-26 10:13|| Front Page Top

#18 I agree with 14.

and this isnt about leftism.

Pat Buchanan, when he talks about Israel, sounds much like your standard leftist - They have a right to exist BUT. And folks farther along then Pat, do the same thing "im against Zionism, not Judaism". Or Robert Novak. Or David Duke.
The Anti-Israel/antisemitic relationship is a generic one, that is not about what you think about private property, the class structure, or even G-d.

And this study addresses something thats been a real concern. Now I understand that Antisemitism is NOT the same thing as Antizionism, and that in theory its quite possible to be an antizionist without being an antisemite. And so its necessary for those of us who are pro-Israel to be cautious in calling our opponents antisemites, because to do so without clear evidence tends to damn us more than our opponents. However it has also always struck me that antizionism IS a convenient cover for antisemitism, and that MANY antizionists are antisemites, to the point where the correlation is very significant. But its hard to make that more subtle case heard, against both the antizionists who deny it, and the more softline prozionists, who are so afraid of appearing unreasonable (sometimes for reasons similar to my own, but sometimes not) that they censor their own legitimate intuition of the connection between antizionism and antisemitism.

The existence of an actual, statistically based study, published in a journal with a generally progressive agenda (conflict resolution) is VERY helpful in making our case, I think.

TW is correct - its much harder to prove A causes B (or B causes A) then to show that A and B are correlated, without showing direction of causation. However I think in the current discourse establishing the link is much more important than establishing the direction of causality.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-07-26 10:21|| 2006-07-26 10:21|| Front Page Top

#19 classic thread. So many great posts that overall provide a very good description of the forces behind anti-semitism.

Posted by 2b 2006-07-26 10:47|| 2006-07-26 10:47|| Front Page Top

#20 It's easy to pick them out.
When they complain about Israel I ask them how they feel about TAiwan.

If they have no opinion on Taiwan then theiir opinion on Israel is from bias.
The people who think that Al Qaeda and Hizbollah are the good revolutionaries need to think about how they would feel if the KKK set up in their state like Hizzbolllah is set up in Lebanonn.

Posted by J. D. Lux 2006-07-26 11:20|| 2006-07-26 11:20|| Front Page Top

#21 Mike (#10) nails it. And it all comes from our favorite lunatic German philosopher, GWF Hegel:

"The State is the march of God through the World, its ground is the power of reason realizing itself as will." -- (Philosophy of Law)

The progressive, post-modern, deconstructionist Left is, as was Marx, Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler, completely Hegelian: the State is supposed to provide for all citizens, and all citizens are to realize their potential through the goodness of the State.

And the State is jealous, it tolerates no competing gods. Whether one is an observant Jew, a fundamental Christian, a Muslim or a Buddhist is irrelevant: the religious person gives his ultimate loyalty to God and not the State.

Few people have done more to harm this world than GWF Hegel.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2006-07-26 11:41|| 2006-07-26 11:41|| Front Page Top

#22 Appreciate the compliment, Steve; this is turning out to be one of the best discussions we've had around here in a while, and 'Hawk and TW and you deserve most of the credit.

Posted by Mike 2006-07-26 11:56|| 2006-07-26 11:56|| Front Page Top

#23 Not just God, Steve White and Mike. Anything that stands between the State and the indivdual must be crushed: family, clan, fraternal organizations, independent charities. Orwell takes it all to its logical extremes in 1984. Artsem, Spies, and communal dining take the place of sex, the Boy Scouts, and the family table. Ultimately even the individual mind must be invaded, free will crushed, and every non-trivial action controlled.

Posted by 11A5S 2006-07-26 13:45|| 2006-07-26 13:45|| Front Page Top

#24 Steve, I think the State as God plays a small part in this, but only a small part. The folks we are talking about, other than the rightwingers who are probably actually anti-semetic (Buchanan, Duke), are all glorifiers of the communist/socialist model. At the very least they are heavily influenced at a subconcious level by this model. The protaganists have changed from the original marxist labels of capitalist and proletariat. Now they have morphed to the more simple characterizations of strong and weak.

The US, Israel and, on a broader scale, The West, are the strong. They are always the target and worthy of any criticism. The weak are those who oppose the strong. They are always to be championed regardless of the depravity of their behavior.

I would guess that the more concious adherents of this psychological view truly do hate the jews, just as they hate America, capitalism and the West in general for all of the "ills" these groups have wrought upon the world.

But those who routinely criticize the State of Israel, her military activities and responses to terror (terror from the weak, so it is ok), I think many of these folks might not be anti-semetic on a direct person to person level. But they can't accept the strenght of Israel relative to those it is fighting.

That they support the enemy of the strong does not, ipso facto, make them hate the strong.

Posted by remoteman 2006-07-26 14:06|| 2006-07-26 14:06|| Front Page Top

#25 Usually I like your posts Anonymoose but this time you did a disservice. In all fairness you should have also included this quote (in italics) from the link:

Can one be a critic of Israel and indeed not harbor anti-Jewish feelings? Categorically yes if the criticism of Israel is not particularly pronounced. In their words:

(I'd go even further and ask if you can be a critic of Jews, or the various Jewish groups, and harbour anti-Jewish feelings.)

It is noteworthy that fewer than one-quarter of those with anti-Israel index scores of only 1 or 2 harbor anti-Semitic views (as defined by anti-Semitic index scores exceeding 5), which supports the contention that one certainly can be critical of Israeli policies without being anti-Semitic. However, among those with the most extreme anti-Israel sentiments in our survey (anti-Israel index scores of 4), 56% report anti-Semitic leanings. Based on this analysis, when an individuals criticism of Israel becomes sufficiently severe, it does become reasonable to ask whether such criticism is a mask for underlying anti-Semitism.

Anyone who wants to experience this debate firsthand can research the various disputes that arise between Jews and Poles in Poland concerning Auschwitz, the pogroms in Jedwabne, and the massacre in Koniuchy (Jews against Poles).

What usually ends up happening in these "debates" is that sooner or later the one side is labelled anti-semitic, and the other side counters with this very same argument that you don't have to be critical of Jews and be anti-Jew at the same time, especially when Auschwitz, Jedwabne, and Koniuchy are involved.

The sad thing is, the true anti-semites always end up joining the disputes and then everything gets really ugly, with all semblance of reason going out the window.

Such has been my experience.

Posted by Rafael 2006-07-26 14:09|| 2006-07-26 14:09|| Front Page Top

#26 My criticism of Israel is that they were to quick to hold back on the Hezbollas at the pleadings of too many folks, thus laying themselves open to more attacks and deaths. They should have cleaned up the Hezboola quickly and efficiently, as they have been know to do in the past in similar situations with others...

Lefty nutbags don't fathom that Hezboolas are stalking horses for Ahmadisnutz and his Mulla-cronies in Tehran, and the sooner that the Hezboolas are dealth with full force the better...

Posted by BigEd 2006-07-26 14:34|| 2006-07-26 14:34|| Front Page Top

#27 What we can notyice about those people who tell themselves antizionists but not antisemitic is that theere is NO other cause who desrves their ire. They foam at the mouth when a Palestinien terrorist gets mangled finger due to an Isreli bombardment but they will yawn if told about one thosand blacks raped and killed in Sudan.

I have battled one of them in a Spanish blog owned by a Jew and he ever escaped, cahnged theread or came with platitudes about all deaths being equivalent. One day I asked him given that the spends hours writing against zionism, how much time he had spent on Sudan and to point me to ONE post written against Sudan. He never answered. And he didn't asnweer when I reiterated the question. He called me a fascist and continued writing about the pooooooooooooooooooR Palestinians and the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Jews.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2006-07-26 15:34|| 2006-07-26 15:34|| Front Page Top

#28 JFM, that builds on my point exactly. In the Sudan you have two sides that are not in the "Strong" category. Both are muslim, and so cultural victims of the west. Both are non-European, or not white in the European sense. Thus your Spaniard can take no side and has no emotional ties to the issue.

If one of the strong parties is not involved, particularly the US or Israel, then those on the left simply don't care. Even if they do they won't demand any real action from either of the involved parties. Feel good platitudes perhaps, but nothing more.

Posted by remoteman 2006-07-26 18:39|| 2006-07-26 18:39|| Front Page Top

#29 " NO other cause who desrves their ire"

Exactly. pretty much a dead giveaway.

Posted by J. D. Lux 2006-07-26 18:47|| 2006-07-26 18:47|| Front Page Top

#30 Both are muslim, and so cultural victims of the west. Both are non-European, or not white in the European sense. Thus your Spaniard can take no side and has no emotional ties to the issue.

Both sides also cannot be controlled through lawfare and other forms of passive-aggressive coercion. Thus we've come full circle and have returned to the issue of malignant narcissism.

Posted by 11A5S 2006-07-26 18:52|| 2006-07-26 18:52|| Front Page Top

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