Article

2007-01-18 China-Japan-Koreas

Fighter jet signals China's military advances

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve White 2007-01-18 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Looks about as stealthy as Aunt Jemima.

Allright all you jetburgers, what's with the wings up by the cockpit? I know I've seen that before, but I thougt it was on jets built about 30 years ago.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-01-18 00:41|| 2007-01-18 00:41|| Front Page Top

#2 Perhaps they ripped off a Swedish Gripen?

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-01-18 01:14|| 2007-01-18 01:14|| Front Page Top

#3 The Pakistanis have ordered a few of them:

The Chinese sold 36 J-10 fighters to Pakistan, slated to enter service in the Pakistan Air Force in 2009-2010. It is estimated to cost $1.5 billion USD total with a flyaway price of $41 million USD for each J-10 fighter.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2007-01-18 01:42|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2007-01-18 01:42|| Front Page Top

#4 Allright all you jetburgers, what's with the wings up by the cockpit? I know I've seen that before, but I thougt it was on jets built about 30 years ago.

They're called canards, they allow for higher angles of attack for pitch rate and depending on the configuration can also reduce drag which in turn allows the aircraft to be faster. In turn because the plane technically adds an extra set of wings due to the canards you can then make the main wings a bit lighter or allow for the carrying of heavier payloads. Course one of the disadvantages of canards is that they're not likely to have any flaps on the plane.

Posted by Valentine 2007-01-18 01:59|| 2007-01-18 01:59|| Front Page Top

#5 I wonder what how much of the technology that went into that plane was lifted from the west in one way or another, including education.

Posted by gorb 2007-01-18 02:03|| 2007-01-18 02:03|| Front Page Top

#6 The J-10 is derived from the Lavi plans (and F-16+ project developed with US taxpayer dollars) that the Israelis sold the Chinese. The engine is reversed engineered from the Russian SU-27. Radar and fire control were Israeli. Weapons are Russan knockoffs. And some wonder why the Israelis won't receive the F-22 and frozen out of any F-35 development work.

Posted by ed 2007-01-18 02:12|| 2007-01-18 02:12|| Front Page Top

#7 The Jian-10 is a direct descendant of the Lavi project cancelled by the Israelis; and the F-16X project where canards were added to an F-16 - leading to the basis for the Lavi. This plane is part of the technology transfer agreed to by the Israelis in the early 80s, when China agreed to stop funding the PLO and related terrorists.
If you look at the cockpit/air scoop arrangement, you can see the influence earlier MiG designs on the aircraft, as well. What the Chinese have done is produced a slightly more advanced fighter than the F-20 Tigershark somewhat indigenously, with a lot of stolen/purchased/reverse engineered technology.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2007-01-18 02:22|| 2007-01-18 02:22|| Front Page Top

#8 Going to {http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/Lavi.html} will give you pictures that show the clear linage of Lavi to Jian-10.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2007-01-18 02:29|| 2007-01-18 02:29|| Front Page Top

#9 I think the most egregious Lavi tech transfer is the digital fly-by-wire flight control system (I'm guessing stolen or reverse engineered from the F-16). That opens up whole new range of enemy aircraft capabilities. Even the SU-27 has only an analog system.

Posted by ed 2007-01-18 02:33|| 2007-01-18 02:33|| Front Page Top

#10 OK! That's It! I'm calling it the F5/F16/SU27 MONGREL!

Posted by Closh Omavilet8728 2007-01-18 02:51|| 2007-01-18 02:51|| Front Page Top

#11 I know that the above remarks are all true, because nothing ever gets invented---except in USA. The rest of humanity, and Israel in particular, only advance by stealing American technology. In the specific case of Israel, usually managing to steal this technology years before Americans invent it.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-01-18 04:14|| 2007-01-18 04:14|| Front Page Top

#12 "Purely defensive" > IOW, killing us softly, the way Grandmas do.

"Thirty years" > Chicom officios have formally admitted that they are still 20-plus years behind the West, espec agz America. WELCOME TO THE 1970's. Pragmatically, iff serious China will need to de-regulate more in order to have such competitive innovation-turnovers that they can go head-to-head agz anti-US Proliferation leader RUSSIA.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2007-01-18 04:24|| 2007-01-18 04:24|| Front Page Top

#13 Don't worry about appearances, grom. The US does this kind of thing to itself just as much or more than Israel seems to, it's just that the US does it out of studied ignorance/incompetance usually whereas Israel is at least aware of what it is doing. I can't decide which is worse, but they both have the same end effect.

Posted by gorb 2007-01-18 04:49|| 2007-01-18 04:49|| Front Page Top

#14 Powered by Chinese engines

The Chinese reverse engineering effort has not been too successful. They are unable to make a reliable copy of the Russian engines.

They are buying RD-93 and AL-31 engines instead.

According to the report of Russia media Kommersant, the Russian state-owned arms trading company Rosoboroneksport has concluded a US$300 million deal for the export of 100 modified AL-31FN turbofan engines from the Salyut Moscow Machine Building Production Enterprise to China. These engine will be fitted on the PLA Air Forces latest indigenous J-10 fighter aircraft.

The report confirmed the earlier speculation that China had received 54 Salyut-made AL-31FP turbofan engines for a test fleet of J-10s between 2002 and 2004. Later Salyut, through Rosoboroneksport, successfully negotiated the sale of the engine for mass production of the fighter aircraft.

The contract with Salyut is the second within three months for the delivery of Russian engines for Chinese fighter planes. At the beginning of April, Rosoboroneksport signed a contract with Beijing for the sale of 100 RD-93 engines for the new Chinese FC-1 for $267 million. The engine was developed by the Klimov plant based on the RD-33 used in the improved MiG-29. Mass production of the RD-93 for China will be carried out at the Chernyshev plant in Moscow. Beijing's total demand for RD-93 will be about 500 pieces.

Posted by john 2007-01-18 06:33|| 2007-01-18 06:33|| Front Page Top

#15 Interestingly enough, the first Chinese assembled SU-27s could not fly.
Russian technicians had to be sent to dismantle and reassemble the aircraft.

Russia has also refused to transfer technology for the local Chinese manufacture of the AL-31.

Posted by john 2007-01-18 06:39|| 2007-01-18 06:39|| Front Page Top

#16 Lavi Funding: Over $2 billion of US aid and the latest US technology went into the Lavi project. (90% of Lavi development cost was funded by US taxpayers via FMS aid).

Examples of this technology include Pratt and Whitney PW1120 engines; graphite epoxy composite materials; electronic countermeasures (ECM) parts; radar-warning receivers and their logarithms; wide-angle, heads-up display; programmable signal-processor emulator; flight-control computer; single-crystal turbine technology; and computer and airframe system.

Arrow anti-ballistic missile system: Since 1988, the United States has provided Israel with more than $1 billion in grants for research and development of the Arrow through the defense budget. President Bush requested $60 million for the Arrow for FY2003. The 2004 budget also includes a request for $136 million for the Arrow, of which $66 million is for an improvement program and $70 million for production. The US Congress approved the funding of $81.6 million toward the cost of a third batteries. Each battery reportedly costs about $170m.

Forgot to mention, the Chinese PL-8 (primary IR missile) on the J-10. Chinese licensed copy of the Israeli Python 3, which in itself is a unauthorized copy of the AIM-9L Sidewinder (world's first all aspect IR missile). The Chinese then took the Python 3 (ex AIM-9L) seeker, put it on a Chinese missile frame and called it the PL-9 and exported it to Israel's neighbors (e.g. Iraq and Iran).

Jane's Intelligence Review 11/01/98: the transfer by Israel to China of the Phalcon airborne early warning and control system (US pressure killed the sale), the Python air-combat missile, and the F-10 fighter aircraft, containing "state-of-the-art U.S. electronics."

In 1992, the first Bush Administration launched a broad inter-departmental investigation into the export of classified technology to China. Of particular concern at the time was the transfer to China by Israel of U.S. Patriot missiles and/or technology. ... In this instance, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, aware that Israel had already been caught selling the earlier AIM 9-L version of the missile to China in violation of a written agreement with the U.S. on arms re-sales, intervened to cancel the proposed AIM-9M deal.

Missile technology sold by Israel to China found its way into tactical missiles sold by China to Iran, Syria, and Iraq, and, reportedly, into CSS-2 ballistic missiles sold by China to Saudi Arabia. American defense and state department officials are furious at Israel for so flagrantly violating the US embargo of high-tech arms to China, particularly as tensions between Washington and Beijing rise. There have even been angry demands in Congress for the value of the Israeli AWACS aircraft sold to China to be deducted from the $3-5 billion in aid Israel receives annually from the US. Fears are being expressed that US technology for Israels new Arrow anti-missile system, developed with nearly $1 billion in US aid, may also be sold to China.

Would it be too much to ask that Israel not sell US funded tech to US adversaries (and eventually Israel's too)? Lots more examples are available. Though lately Israel has tranferred less weapons tech, just recently there was news of the Harpy anti radar attack drones for China. At least the Harpy was Israeli funded, as far as I know.

Posted by ed 2007-01-18 08:15|| 2007-01-18 08:15|| Front Page Top

#17 Hey, Gromgoru? How's about you shut the fuck up about the US not giving Israel stuff. Remember Jonathan Pollard? Remember "By Way of Deception?" They name streets after people who play the game the way you guys do: ONE WAY. You motherfuckers wouldn't be breathing if it wasn't for the billions and billions given to you by the US taxpayer, who puts up with a lot of shit from the rest of the world to support you.

I'm getting set to fly overseas tomorrow and I'm going to go through a hell of a lot of horseshit because a lot of people don't like our country because WE SUPPORT ISRAEL. I agree with the support but I'm also damned well aware of what it costs us. Don't rub the cost in any more.

Posted by mac 2007-01-18 09:28|| 2007-01-18 09:28|| Front Page Top

#18 More Chinese Military Advances:
U.S. intelligence agencies believe China destroyed the aging Feng Yun 1C polar orbit weather satellite in a successful anti-satellite weapons (ASAT) test Jan. 11, China Daily reported Jan. 18, citing an article to appear in the Jan. 22 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology. U.S. intelligence agencies are still attempting to verify the ASAT test, which would signify that China has a major new military capability.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-01-18 09:47|| 2007-01-18 09:47|| Front Page Top

#19 China and Russia can buils all they want. We will still dominate the skies everywhere we go. This aircraft will be sold to make third world countries think they are first world big shots.

A Communist insurgent general once told me the best fighters and bombers in the world are only as good as the security around the runway. Any country that gets these will never be able to afford to maintain them and will certainly never understand how to defend them from ground attack.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2007-01-18 11:23|| 2007-01-18 11:23|| Front Page Top

#20 Fighters are only as good as the pilots flying them. Very few nations have the culture and cash to ensure the pilots are really, really, well trained.

China should be selling tanks for export instead. It doesn't take much training to beat down your own citizens with tanks and I suspect that is going to be a growing market amung Chinese allies.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-01-18 11:55|| 2007-01-18 11:55|| Front Page Top

#21 Our thoughts and prayers go with you, mac. Keep in touch, if you can.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-01-18 11:59|| 2007-01-18 11:59|| Front Page Top

#22 Damn, mac. But I suppose it needed to be said.

As we were discussing yesterday, the horseshit we're subjected to is ultimately because governments find it easier to hassle their own docile citizens than to crush the muzzbots once and for all. Strictly speaking, the US could totally support Israel or totally withdraw it, and Islam would still be a problem either way.

Well, in any case, don't let the zooch-grabbers getcha. :)

Posted by exJAG 2007-01-18 12:47|| 2007-01-18 12:47|| Front Page Top

#23 The Lavi's fly-by-wire system was programmed by Lear-Siegler under contract to Israeli Aircraft Industries in the 1985-1987 time frame. Its avionics systems were programmed by IAI using embedded computers that conform to the then UASF MIL-STD 1732b instruction set architecture.

Posted by occasional observer 2007-01-18 12:59|| 2007-01-18 12:59|| Front Page Top

#24 All those vaunted Israeli imilitary inventions. I wish they could invent their own bazillions of dollars so we don't have to supply it for them.

Who ever heard of a thankless Jew? I think groms' just having a bad day.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-01-18 13:19|| 2007-01-18 13:19|| Front Page Top

#25 I support Israel but I sure as hell would really think about giving them our bleeding edge stuff and plans. Israel has been known to be as leaky as the CIA.

They want guns? Check.
They want ammo? Check.
They want AIM-120s? Maybe. Depends if they are at war.
They want F-22s? Fuck you.
Have a nuke instead.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-01-18 17:15|| 2007-01-18 17:15|| Front Page Top

#26 Have a nuke instead.

?

Use a nuke instead?

Posted by Shipman 2007-01-18 17:46|| 2007-01-18 17:46|| Front Page Top

#27 And yes,

Go, go Shia!
Go, go Sunni!

Posted by Shipman 2007-01-18 17:47|| 2007-01-18 17:47|| Front Page Top

#28 "Have a nuke" as in we would give them a few extra to use against their enemies, not use it on Israel.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-01-18 19:55|| 2007-01-18 19:55|| Front Page Top

23:56 Anguper Hupomosing9418
23:55 USN, ret.
23:47 USN, ret.
23:34 USN, ret.
23:19 C-Low
23:06 Barbara Skolaut
22:55 Elmert Crosh5077
22:46 Glenmore
22:45 Glenmore
22:42 Shieldwolf
22:39 Swamp Blondie
22:32 Shieldwolf
22:21 Elmert Crosh5077
22:15 Shieldwolf
22:14 Jan
22:13 BA
22:12 JosephMendiola
22:08 CrazyFool
22:07 JosephMendiola
22:04 Frank G
22:02 KBK
22:01 JAB
22:01 JosephMendiola
21:56 Frank G