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2007-04-17 -Lurid Crime Tales-
33 known dead in Va Tech shooting
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Posted by Steve White 2007-04-17 00:00|| || Front Page|| [12 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 It was (mis)reported that the shooter was a 24 year old student from China with a Facebook page that was filled with guns. Geraldo on Fox saw the page and expressed horror at all the guns.

This is apparently false as the student has responded that he is NOT the shooter (who is purportedly dead) on his Web site. See link on Drudge.
Posted by DMFD 2007-04-17 00:06||   2007-04-17 00:06|| Front Page Top

#2 Michelle Malkin has information that a 24 year old Chinese student on a visa (my take is that the FBI would not have finger prints, etc., to identify, so may be waiting for overseas identification confirmation) who earlier shot girl friend and school employee and then two hours later shot up the rest of the school, then took own life...
Posted by Uninens Big Foot5550 2007-04-17 00:36||   2007-04-17 00:36|| Front Page Top

#3 BTW the media was doing the whole 'grim milestone' shtick up to the point where the death toll ticked over to 'the worst mass murder ever'. Then it was all confetti and party hats...
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2007-04-17 00:38||   2007-04-17 00:38|| Front Page Top

#4 A two digit fingerprint scan is a requirement for a student visa.
Posted by phil_b 2007-04-17 00:44||   2007-04-17 00:44|| Front Page Top

#5 I was just watching MSNBC talking about this. They showed a picture of a gun like that involved in the shooting and of course had to blame it on W by saying it had a clip with more than 11 bullets, and that the Bush administration allowed the law banning these to sunset so they were legal again.


/sarc on
With everyone running away from the gunman as I understand they were I'm sure it would have turned out that fewer people would have been killed if the many clips he was carrying had been of the politically correct variety, because he surely wouldn't have thought of carrying a gun in each hand were that the case.
/sarc off.
Posted by gorb 2007-04-17 00:47||   2007-04-17 00:47|| Front Page Top

#6 Seafarious, rest assured that lamp posts await those "journalists". Maybe not today, but their fate is sealed by this sort of gloating over America's supposed shortcomings.

On a most cynical note, I'll add that America's Muslim population should be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief that this incident does not appear to be a case of Sudden Jihad Syndrome.

Should this be a case of SJS, it must mark a turning point in how domestic policy is arrived at.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-17 00:47||   2007-04-17 00:47|| Front Page Top

#7 Now we know why the authorities are treating the Chinese student with 'kit gloves'!. The same thing occurred when "W" had to correctly apologize for the EP3 jet collision a few years ago. Thread softly on the Chicom's toes!!
Posted by smn 2007-04-17 01:13||   2007-04-17 01:13|| Front Page Top

#8 I am sickened more by America's reaction to this carnage than the massacre itself. Blame the gun, increase gun control, police should've locked down campus, blah, blah, blah. Common theme: "this should not have been allowed to happen; somebody else should have done something." The campus is a community of roughly 35,000 people; there is an apparant domestic disturbance/killing at dawn; it happens every day in America; we don't shut down every such community while we investigate the possibility it was the precursor to an unprecedented crime; why should this community be different? We have created a nation of victims. To all you people who say you can't understand how six million Jews could have lined up and marched into the showers - look around. One report said kids lined up against a wall before the guy shot them, and didn't resist because, I guess, they figured his finger would get tired or he'd run out of ammo before he got to them. I sympathize with those whose ... no, I'll stop before I make a worse fool of myself.
Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore  2007-04-17 07:21||   2007-04-17 07:21|| Front Page Top

#9 Had not seen this when I ranted:
"As Jews worldwide honored on Monday the memory of those who were murdered in the Holocaust, a 75-year-old survivor sacrificed his life to save his students in Monday's shooting at Virginia Tech college that left 32 dead and over two dozen wounded."

ONE guy understood how not to join the six million ever again.
Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore  2007-04-17 07:55||   2007-04-17 07:55|| Front Page Top

#10 Even one sheepdog amongst the sheep would have been enough. Where was our Virginia version of Fabrizio Quattrocchi? What kind of children have we raised that would be complaint and obedient to a butcher?
Posted by OldSpook 2007-04-17 08:15||   2007-04-17 08:15|| Front Page Top

#11 Foreign national must have obtained firearms illegally. If he were not a foreign national, his fingerprints would be on file when he purchased a legal firearm. It would also seem that a foreign national entering on a visa would have fingerprints on file. Wonder why he went to such lengths to hide his identity. He did not carry any ID. He filed serial number off the firearm according to news.
Posted by JohnQC 2007-04-17 08:21||   2007-04-17 08:21|| Front Page Top

#12 As far as I know, my fingerprints are not on file, I am not a foreign national, and I have legally purchased firearms. Is that a Virginia-specific regulation?
Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore  2007-04-17 08:35||   2007-04-17 08:35|| Front Page Top

#13 Something I looked up last night. I'm not a lawyer, so if I have something wrong, please correct.

A nonimmigrant alien with a valid F-1 student visa may purchase a firearm(s) if:

1) The visa holder has lived in a US state for more than 95 days

2) Has proof that the visa holder has competed in organized shooting competition or has a valid US state hunting license

3) Has complied with local, state, and federal firearms regulations.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 08:36||   2007-04-17 08:36|| Front Page Top

#14 ...rest assured that lamp posts await those "journalists". Maybe not today, but their fate is sealed by this sort of gloating over America's supposed shortcomings.

If only I could believe that. But, as the "Barney the Purple Dinosaur" (BtPD™) crowd matures, I would expect that we'll just have to get along!

BTW, is anyone keeping a list of names of these "journo's"? You know, just in case we have an opportunity to see that they keep that date with the lamp post.
Posted by Natural Law 2007-04-17 08:53||   2007-04-17 08:53|| Front Page Top

#15 mrp I believe you are correct. We are still waiting to find out about the Mr. Cho name confirmation. The gun shop owner that claims to have sold the guns also claims to have the chap on video.

I'm willing to bet the FBI right now is cleaning the guys apartment. Hate to get cinical but a 6 foot tall asian man out of 14,000 students can't be that hard to idenify.
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 08:55||   2007-04-17 08:55|| Front Page Top

#16 What kind of children have we raised that would be complaint and obedient to a butcher?

Children raised on Barney and the Tele Tubbies and other shows of that ilk. Then further indoctrinated in the school systems. CW-II, closer.
Posted by Natural Law 2007-04-17 09:00||   2007-04-17 09:00|| Front Page Top

#17 TW the www.black-rifles.com site has been taken down. But just checked, www.roanokefirearms.com is still up. That story looks like it might be loosing steam.
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 09:06||   2007-04-17 09:06|| Front Page Top

#18 CNN is reporting a VTU president statement that the shooter was a VTU student who was living in a dorm. Steger isn't sure whether a second shooter is involved.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 09:15||   2007-04-17 09:15|| Front Page Top

#19 Cho Seung-Hui - VT student
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 09:31||   2007-04-17 09:31|| Front Page Top

#20 23 yr old South Korean native
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 09:33||   2007-04-17 09:33|| Front Page Top

#21 Looks like the gun shop owner was on the level.

ABC Cho Hui Seung, a resident alien of the United States, a South Korean national and a Virginia Tech senior has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead on the Virginia Tech campus Monday, ABC News has learned.

Cho's identitiy has been confirmed with a positive fingerprint match on the guns used in the rampage and with immigration materials.


So far no google results for Cho, photos and so on. There is one 18 year old but thought they were saying the scum was 24.

So where did Cho get the skills to shoot 50 people?
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 09:39||   2007-04-17 09:39|| Front Page Top

#22 I'm actually relieved he wasn't screaming "Allah Akbar!"
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2007-04-17 09:40||   2007-04-17 09:40|| Front Page Top

#23 Bill Hemmer (Fox, formerly of CNN) exhibits his gun knowledge: "two handguns: one a 9 mm, the other a 22 mm"
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 09:43||   2007-04-17 09:43|| Front Page Top

#24 Cho was a Senior English Major student, so 24 is probably correct
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 09:44||   2007-04-17 09:44|| Front Page Top

#25 22mm?!?! Damn! I bet the recoil on that baby is harsh!
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2007-04-17 09:48||   2007-04-17 09:48|| Front Page Top

#26 What kind of children have we raised that would be complaint and obedient to a butcher?

The kind who go off to be indoctrinated by lunatics who mark the first anniversary of 9/11 by reminding them that "KGB" also stood for "Homeland Security," and cautioning against any more violence and retaliation in Afghanistan.

True story. Told millions of times in millions of classrooms every day. And not just humanities dickweeds -- the above was pronouncement came from a professor of biophysics.

And those are the moderates. At a Christmas party, another biophysics professor turned purple, pointed a finger in my face, and screamed that my husband was killing women and children in Iraq. I was told that he'd had a bit to drink and to just shrug it off.

So let your kids have their "devil music" and play it backwards if they want -- it's the profs who destroy them, intellectually and psychologically.
Posted by exJAG 2007-04-17 09:50||   2007-04-17 09:50|| Front Page Top

#27 And another reason we don't look to the American media for hard information.

Has anyone heard more about the people being held for interrogation?
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 09:52||   2007-04-17 09:52|| Front Page Top

#28 Time for a real beating: Phelps' "Westboro Baptist Church" plans to protest at the funerals.(ht to Michelle Malkin)


I'd suggest the police withdraw, turn their backs, and not intervene. Let the consequences happen...
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 09:52||   2007-04-17 09:52|| Front Page Top

#29 A lot of 'em, exJAG. But that prof who strode forward to confront Cho so that his students might live, reminds me of the NYC firefighters of 9/11.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 09:54||   2007-04-17 09:54|| Front Page Top

#30 Sick. Time for the new improved baseball bats for fake baptist.
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 09:56||   2007-04-17 09:56|| Front Page Top

#31 He must have a certifable paper trail to be accepted as a senior in a second language. He qwould have had to complete some placment and achievment tests. Perhaps the reason information has been slow is LE is waiting to get more background info from Korea.
I remember after 7/7 in London that the info came out a lot slower than previous events and certainly much slower than "Geraldo and the media circus" would like..."Hey, we have to build the supporting graphics and order up somber music to get the Blame game started in time for tonights broadcasts... can't you guys spill the beans right now?"
While I don't think this has a terror componant, I think the new protocals for any questionable event is to slow down. The presser yesterday was a circus, and today they complian because there was no Q & A.
Posted by Capsu78 2007-04-17 10:00||   2007-04-17 10:00|| Front Page Top

#32 Apologies in advance for an extended rant.
One would think that as the details of this tragic event unfolded there would have been enough sizzle for all the parasitic cue-card readers in the media to keep occupied. Their zeal for an “exclusive angle” is as predictable as it is odious. Recent comparisons include how the most violent hurricane to hit the US mainland was transformed into a narrative about racial injustice even as the search and rescue operations were still underway. And to a lesser degree, there were charges of a “cover-up at the highest levels” only a day after the Vice Presidents’ hunting accident. In this instance, equipped with only rumors and unconfirmed reports, the media mouthpieces were in overdrive speculating on the easy “availability of guns” or how the average Joe can spot the “warning signs” of the potential psychopathic killer. Even as bodies lied in an “active crime scene”, the leaches in the press corps grilled an obviously shaken police chief about his decisions following the initial report of violence. Most, of course, asked their questions with their obvious innuendos of incompetence. And even as bodies lied in an “active crime scene” the talking head whores had declared ineptitude on the part of local law enforcement. In the end, these charges may become valid. But to make these conjectures even before the next of kin has been notified is contemptible.
Posted by DepotGuy 2007-04-17 10:03||   2007-04-17 10:03|| Front Page Top

#33 Children raised on Barney and the Tele Tubbies and other shows of that ilk. Then further indoctrinated in the school systems.

In defense of that generation, my 2 daughters generation, these "Barney Kids" were also the boys and girls who lined up at dawn outside of Fallugia a couple of Novembers ago...my hope is not lost.
Posted by Capsu78 2007-04-17 10:07||   2007-04-17 10:07|| Front Page Top

#34 Sent to my congress critters, state and federal.

Dear (spineless politician - insert name here),

If you want me to feel safe on campus, then allow me and those like me who are older students, legally possessing a Tenn. Handgun Carry Permit, to carry on campus. I would not mind if additional training was required to do so, provided it's real training and not simply an attempt to pretend to allow it like was done with airline pilots after 9/11 where getting the
training was so hard and expensive it became impossible. A "Gun-Free Zone" is nothing more than a safe zone for potential terrorists and mass murders who KNOW that the local state and federal government have aided in their crimes by turning citizens into unarmed sheep for the slaughter. The Courts have ruled that Police do not have a duty to protect individual citizens and our state constitution and our nation's constitution have within them the provisions to provide for it's citizen's safety. I refer you to the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution and Article 1, Section 26 of the Tennessee State Constitution which grant the
citizens the right to bear arms.

Thank you,

(insert my info here)


Not copied from anywhere, written by me. Doubt I'll get more than a form letter in reply, but I'm sure I'll get lots of requests for my $$$.
Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick  2007-04-17 10:13||   2007-04-17 10:13|| Front Page Top

#35 #26 What kind of children have we raised that would be complaint and obedient to a butcher?

I understand the frustration, but that's an unfair question. No one knows what they would do under those circumstances. A classroom in the States is not the place where most people expect to come under hostile fire.
Posted by Besoeker 2007-04-17 10:17||   2007-04-17 10:17|| Front Page Top

#36 More on Israeli engineering professor Liviu Librescu (via powerlineblog.com):

link

Israeli professor of Romanian origin Liviu Librescu numbers among those killed in the Virginia Tech University massacre on Monday. According to the International Herald Tribune, Librescu sacrificed his life to save his students. He had blocked the access to the his class so that students can run from the attacker.

Librescu, 77, was teaching at the Virginia Tech University for 20 years.


Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 10:26||   2007-04-17 10:26|| Front Page Top

#37 Cho Seung-Hui, 23, identified as killer in Virginia Tech massacre.

His photo here
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 10:30||   2007-04-17 10:30|| Front Page Top

#38 That story looks like it might be loosing steam.

Thank you for the thoughtful update, Icerigger. Separately, do South Korean boys still do their Army service straight out of high school? Do they all still get Tae Kwan Do and Hapkido training from childhood on? Back when we were in university, Mr. Wife was an honorary member of the Korean Student Union; they all played martial arts together, even though he did Kung Fu. He used always to go with them when they went out drinking, to keep them out of fights. At any rate, if Mr. Cho had been through the Korean Army, he'd have gotten some serious gun training, surely. I've seen some comments here about what tough sons of pups the Korean troops are...

Thank you for the information on Professor Librescu's heroism, mrp. May his memory be a blessing and a solace to his family, his friends, and his students.
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-17 10:45||   2007-04-17 10:45|| Front Page Top

#39 Good question TW and thanks, had to look that one up. It appears they do. South Korea has mandatory military service of 24 to 27...

The hero stories are finally coming out. Our deep prayers are with the families. God Bless them.


Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 11:03||   2007-04-17 11:03|| Front Page Top

#40 TW, you asked the question I was going to ask. If he had been through army service in SKor then it would explain his methodical planning and execution of the attack.

It's interesting to note that the Virginia Tech police chief is not dismissing the possibility of a second gunman:
At an evening news conference, Police Chief Wendell Flinchum refused to dismiss the possibility that a co-conspirator or second shooter was involved. He said police had interviewed a male who was a "person of interest" in the dorm shooting and who knew one of the victims, but he declined to give details.

"I'm not saying there's a gunman on the loose," Flinchum said. Ballistics tests will help explain what happened, he said.
So what would an accomplice have done? Tied down the cops at the dorm while the shooter prepared to shoot up Norris Hall? There's still more to this story.
Posted by Jonathan">Jonathan  2007-04-17 11:07||   2007-04-17 11:07|| Front Page Top

#41 Nor are authorities ruling out possible connections between the shootings and the series of bomb threats, which targeted VTU's engineering buildings.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 11:13||   2007-04-17 11:13|| Front Page Top

#42 From Roanoke.com: link

10:20 a.m.

A bomb threat directed at Virginia Tech engineering school department buildings was found Monday at the scene of the mass shooting at Norris Hall, an engineering building, according to a search warrant affidavit filed this morning in Montgomery County Circuit Court.

The affadavit said the suspect in the shootings, who has been named as 23-year-old Cho Seung-Hui, was believed to have multiple firearms, including but not limited to Walther P22 and Glock 9mm handguns. The affadavit goes on to say that an investigation has revealed the suspect recently purchased a handgun at a Roanoke firearms store.

"It is further reasonable to believe suspect is the author of the bomb threat note," reads the affadavit written by a Virginia State Police special agent.

The warrant was taken out to search a dorm room at 2121 Harper Hall for tools, documents, computer hardware, weapons, ammunition, explosives, instructional manuals for criminal acts of mass destruction, writing utensils and/or paper similar to that used to communicate threats to Tech's campus in the recent past.

-- Reported by Shawna Morrison
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 11:31||   2007-04-17 11:31|| Front Page Top

#43 Derek O'Dell another hero.

HT Powerline
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 11:33||   2007-04-17 11:33|| Front Page Top

#44 Another thing that chaps my ass. On Fox this morning some wag was bemoaning the fact there are no surveilance cameras there. The fact that surveilance cameras would not have either prevented or stopped this guy is immaterial to them. Try putting up surveilance cameras everywhere and listen to all the outcrying from liberals about the Orwellian Government. Bad people are going to do bad things and no ammount of regulation is going to stop them. We have to be willing to confront evil. Doing things to make people "feel" safe is an excersie in futility as those things don't make people actually safe and we all know it's all about feelings.The monster under the bed doesn't go away just because one turns on a nightlight. The cries of "The police didn't protect these people" and "the School Administration didn't protect these people" are cries of people looking to blame everyone but the shooter. Things like this will happen in a free society. The only way to truly prevent these things is to have a true police state where everyone is subject to police questions and searches at any time and for no apparant reason. Papers must be kept on one's person at all times and checked at the whim of the athoraties. I don't think that's really what the American people want but it may be what they actually get.
Posted by Deacon Blues 2007-04-17 11:37||   2007-04-17 11:37|| Front Page Top

#45 Fox: guy was treated for depression, was thought to be a stalker, railed against rich kids and aberrant behavior in a note he left, that he signed "Ismail X"

WTF???
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 11:51||   2007-04-17 11:51|| Front Page Top

#46 Note:

The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.

The note included a rambling list of grievances and ended with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms. Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 11:56||   2007-04-17 11:56|| Front Page Top

#47 
A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.


He sounds like the alphie troll that pops up on Protein Wisdom.
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2007-04-17 12:06|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2007-04-17 12:06|| Front Page Top

#48 I did a few searches of "Ismail Ax" as a proper name, and also as separate nouns.

As far as a specific name is concerned, the only online reference I could find for "Ismail Ax" was here: narcissk-ax

Seems like a good age fit, hip, saw some Arabic language stuff on a site linked from the page.

Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 12:23||   2007-04-17 12:23|| Front Page Top

#49 Doesn't look like ROK training, supposedly he came to the US in '92. Wait for the 'he was a good boy' from parents shortly.
Posted by Hupath Lumumba1028 2007-04-17 12:32||   2007-04-17 12:32|| Front Page Top

#50 Spooky mrp.
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 12:33||   2007-04-17 12:33|| Front Page Top

#51 Suggestion to web admins: 'sinktrap' the comments about killing journalists unless you want Rantburg to have an FBI file. A complaint will be made if this is not done.
Posted by Ebbereting McGurque2067 2007-04-17 12:36||   2007-04-17 12:36|| Front Page Top

#52 So many questions still unanswered. Motive? What warped reasoning was going through Cho’s jelled mind?

Why so little info on the first two victims – where it all started? Love triangle – either dumped him for someone else or was playing behind his back? What was the relationship between the three parties? Who was connected to the Engineering department – his girlfriend or the second victim? Why did Cho want to take out as many engineering students as he could? Why the broader inclusion in his punishment? Why go after additional people when he had already killed his girlfriend?

Was Cho “humiliated”? Did he lose face? Did she leave Cho for an engineering student (or was playing around while going out with Cho) and Cho believed that all engineering students knew about the betrayal or that all the students were as “evil” as the man who lured her away with his debauchery and charming smile? Or was she the engineering student who told all her classmates about poor hapless Cho and how tiny he was for a tall guy?

The bomb scares may well be related I think. Did Cho get fed up that his notes were not taken seriously and upped the ante? He’d a real hate on for engineers. Did he decide over the last two weeks that just frightening students wasn’t enough for him? Or did something else happen to the relationship that jumped him from bomb scares to killing? Was it too hard to make a bomb in a campus dorm, so Cho changed his plan from bombing to shooting?

So many questions. So little info on how it all started. Anyone got updates that might help fill some of these gaps?
Posted by Thinemp Whimble 2007-04-17 12:40||   2007-04-17 12:40|| Front Page Top

#53 "Ismail X" or "Ismail Ax" or "Ismail Ex"? Did he use multiple spellings? Is the "X" supposed to make a connection to "Malcom X"?
Posted by gorb 2007-04-17 12:57||   2007-04-17 12:57|| Front Page Top

#54 The InstaWife has an interesting analysis (she's a forensic psychologist when she isn't being a professor's wife).

I've seen reports that the girl killed in the dorm was an 18-year old freshman, who did not know Mr. Cho. Cho moved to the US at age 8 or nine with his parents, who live in a nice townhouse in Centreville, where he graduated from high school. Would a permanent alien still have to go back to Korea to do military service? At any rate, the Washington Times says

"He was very quiet, always by himself," neighbor Abdul Shash said of the gunman. Shash said the gunman spent a lot of his free time playing basketball, and wouldn't respond if someone greeted him. He described the family as quiet.
Marshall Main, who lives across the street, said the family had lived in the townhouse for several years.
According to court records, Virginia Tech Police issued a speeding ticket to Cho on April 7 for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, and he had a court date set for May 23.
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-17 13:06||   2007-04-17 13:06|| Front Page Top

#55 Dunno, gorb. I just went by what Frank linked. If he wrote it on his arm before he carried out his mission, it's likely he'd take the time to spell it out as accurately as possible.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 13:07||   2007-04-17 13:07|| Front Page Top

#56 He's not an American citizen. If he had gone back to SK, given past practices, he'd have been pitching a pup tent in no time.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 13:11||   2007-04-17 13:11|| Front Page Top

#57 From Silentbrick #34:If you want me to feel safe on campus, then allow me and those like me who are older students, legally possessing a Tenn. Handgun Carry Permit, to carry on campus.

This ironically reminds me of an incident from my youth: when I was in college twenty-some odd years ago in the middle (literally) of Tennessee, a friend was taking a class that an off-duty Nashville cop was also taking. The cop used to openly pack heat to class, but so many students were scared by the sight of the evil gun that the professor made him stop carrying it to class.

As to the people that insinuate more should have been done by the cops, I would ask: what would you recommend given the logistics of a college campus with thousands of students, most of whom have some sort of container to carry books, scattered through scores of buildings and over hundreds of acres? The only things that could have short-circuited this were explicitly forbidden.

As someone on another blog commented, all the laws in the world won't stop this sort of atrocity.
Posted by xbalanke 2007-04-17 13:20||   2007-04-17 13:20|| Front Page Top

#58 "Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women."

Once upon a time, we would put away crazy people who did shit like that so they didn't have a chance to do worse. Also, back in those days, there was almost NO gun control.

Now, thanks to our liberal notions of how to treat lunatics, and our liberal notions about gun control, we allow nutcases like Cho to run loose, while indulging in empty feelgood measures like declaring the VTI campus a "gun-free zone".

Seems to me the old ways were better.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 13:22||   2007-04-17 13:22|| Front Page Top

#59 I doubt South Korea could force him to return to do military duty. But if he ended up in the country he may well be obligated to perform it.

It seems he bought the gun in March, before the ticket. The ticket increases the likelihood that he had a "I have nothing to lose" attitude. At this point I believe he had probably been planning and rehearsing this for quite a while before he actually did it.

I have in the back of my mind that Islam is built in a way that its radical interpretations prey on those with mental problems more than other religions. These people probably seek validation for their violence-prone thinking there. Any computer forensics regarding his internet habits and blogging and the "Ismail Ax" thing should be verrry interesting I'll bet. If he didn't have a computer they had better move quick to find which ones he used.
Posted by gorb 2007-04-17 13:26||   2007-04-17 13:26|| Front Page Top

#60 Since it seems he was an English major, he might have been familiar with Melville and the novel Moby Dick. Maybe he was trying to identify himself with the character "Ishmael"?

It's a reach, I know, but it might have meant something to the gunman. The mad Captain Ahab, the Great White Whale, something like that maybe?

I'm just throwing out a thought.

Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg  2007-04-17 13:28|| www.fire-on-the-suns.com]">[www.fire-on-the-suns.com]  2007-04-17 13:28|| Front Page Top

#61 If he wrote it on his arm before he carried out his mission, it's likely he'd take the time to spell it out as accurately as possible.

Kids today don't know how to spell. I found the narcissk-ax website, but I don't do l33t Fr3n(h, and neither does Babelfish. Note that the fellow identified as "Ismail Ax" (blue shirt, in the middle) in one picture is identified as "smoon" in the photo above it. He doesn't look much like our killer, except for being Asian.

Did she leave Cho for an engineering student...

It's possible the "girlfriend" angle will turn out to be a big nothin' -- maybe he had the hots for the girl, and she turned him down cold. And there were all kinds of classes held in the engineering building (French and German, among others), so I don't know that his attack on the engineering building had anything to do with engineering.

And, much as I enjoy hate adding to the uninformed speculation, I'll point out that in my day, the only English majors we had at my (engineering) school were townies who lived at home, and wives of other students. A tech school is not the first choice of most English majors.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2007-04-17 13:32||   2007-04-17 13:32|| Front Page Top

#62 Angie:

Note that the fellow identified as "Ismail Ax" (blue shirt, in the middle) in one picture is identified as "smoon" in the photo above it. He doesn't look much like our killer, except for being Asian.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear when I said "nice fit". I did not mean "nice fit" as in "hey, he looks just like Cho!"

I meant that the age group and the "posse" gangsta style would probably attract a disturbed individual like Mr. Cho. While checking out the "favorite sites" linked by the original page, I saw a fascinating graph of the south end of a north-bound lady with the words "Made In Morocco" inked on her heiney. No obvious Korean connection.

Again, there is zero proof to date that Cho ever visted the site. It's just the only one Google kicked up on the name search.

If the words "Ismail Ax" were written on his arm, I'll subscribe to the notion that the words were spelled accurately until proven otherwise.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 13:58||   2007-04-17 13:58|| Front Page Top

#63 First reply back from state congress critter (Demoncrat, of course):

Dear Mr. May,

Thank you so much for letting me know your thoughts on this important matter. I strongly support Second Amendment rights and generally agree with the sentiments expressed in your email. The issue of carrying weapons on campus is strongly opposed by the administrations of the various universities and they believe that it would contribute to an increase in gun violence on campus. I have not seen evidence either way and I hate to rule based on either irrational fears by campus administrators or my own strong passion in favor of responsible gunownership.

I appreciate you taking the time to weigh in on this important andtimely topic, and if I can be of any service to you or your family, please do not hesitate to call on me.

Sincerely yours,

Rep. Henry Fincher
Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick  2007-04-17 14:04||   2007-04-17 14:04|| Front Page Top

#64 Angie, Virginia Tech doubles as the state university of Virginia, so a middle class kid majoring in English would be unremarkable there, even though Tech has a reputation as an engineering school.

It's important to remember that this was one among 25,000 students. Chances are he was mentally damaged goods going into school, didn't get the help he needed because he was just one among many, and finally lost it for whatever reason: jilted/ignored/cheated on by girlfriend, feeling of inadequacy, maybe onset of some mental disorder (how late does schizophrenia manifest?).
Posted by Jonathan">Jonathan  2007-04-17 14:52||   2007-04-17 14:52|| Front Page Top

#65 This is a huge WTF!? Right now on CBS they are covering the Tech memorial and for some fucking reason there is an Imam shoving the Quran down the audience's throats.

Since when has Virgina been an Islamic state and who the hell invited this preacher of the pedophile for profit into somber event!?
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 14:53||   2007-04-17 14:53|| Front Page Top

#66 The Smoking Gun: Virginia Killer's Violent Writings
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 14:57||   2007-04-17 14:57|| Front Page Top

#67 Maybe it's just me and the crazy way I got my education, but a gun in any of the classrooms I attended wouldn't have even been acknowledged. In fact, I can remember seeing armed kids in uniform in class, given a 2-hour break from their duty schedule to attend class, bringing their M-16s with them to the classroom. In New Mexico, we had a Deputy Sheriff and a town police officer in my English class, and both came in uniform, armed. The University of Maryland has classrooms all over Europe and the Middle East on US military bases, and I KNOW they don't require people to "disarm" before attending classes - or at least, they didn't when I was attending class. The left has demonized weapons constantly for the last 40 years, to the point where people are afraid of them. This is nonsense. A weapon is just a tool. It's possible to go on a killing spree with a chain saw, an axe, or any other kind of tool, just as easily as it is with a weapon. Only idiots who have very little brain are afraid of tools.
Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot  2007-04-17 15:19|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]  2007-04-17 15:19|| Front Page Top

#68 ...Cho believed that all engineering students knew about the betrayal or that all the students were as “evil” as the man who lured her away with his debauchery and charming smile?

You know what they say about engineers and their seductive ways...

(Head of the engineering department told this joke to his fluid dynamics class: "What's the number one form of birth control among engineers? Their personalities.")
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2007-04-17 15:22|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2007-04-17 15:22|| Front Page Top

#69 Thanks for the Smoking Gun link, Dave.

Mr. Cho apeard two be a prety gud speler.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 15:28||   2007-04-17 15:28|| Front Page Top

#70 chicks dig a guy with a scientific calculator and a pocket protector hawaiian shirt, Ima told....
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 15:34||   2007-04-17 15:34|| Front Page Top

#71 NYT: Roommates Describe Gunman as Loner

A loner-- and SERIOUSLY strange. Sounds like this guy gave off plenty bad vibes for a long time before yesterday:
Caroyln Rude, the chair of the English Department, said that she had spoken to a professor who taught Mr. Cho and was told that the general impression of him was that he was “troubled.”

“There were signs that he was troubled,” she said. “And the English Department at one point did intervene.”

She said that it related to something he wrote in a creative writing class but did not give details about what was written or what kind of intervention was taken, only that it was some time ago, before she was made chair of the department.
Could that be the play he wrote, subject of the TSG item I posted above?



Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 15:46||   2007-04-17 15:46|| Front Page Top

#72 Interesting take on the Ismail Ax (or Axe?) Angle:
You probably already know this, but in James Fennimore Cooper’s story “The Prairie,” the settler Ishmael Bush, who is attempting to escape from civilization, sets out across the prairie with two key tools, a gun and an axe. Each has a symbolic meaning. The axe — which can either kill or provide shelter — stands for both creation and destruction. Given that the VT killer was an English major, might this be the likely meaning of the words on his arm? Just my two cents.
Source: Hot Air reader Ray F.
Seems as plausible as anything I've heard anywhere else.
Posted by eLarson 2007-04-17 15:54|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com]  2007-04-17 15:54|| Front Page Top

#73 ONE guy understood how not to join the six million ever again.

Yup, Glenmore, the same question has gone through my mind as well. Once those kids were lined up, they had to know that their tickets were punched. What do you have to lose by throwing yourself on the guy to distract him long enough for others to subdue him? The passengers on Flight 93 knew better.

What kind of children have we raised that would be complaint and obedient to a butcher?

Look at what children have been taught for the last several decades. Such drivel as:

You can never know anything for sure.

There is no right or wrong, only shades of gray.

Logic is determined by circumstances.

There are no absolutes.

Truth is relative.


This is the sort of corrosive garbage that has been drilled into America's youth for some time now. As an example, examine the underlying message of The Smurfs. An entire cast of characters outwardly indistinguishable by such factors as race or ethnicity. More importantly, the central character is typically unable to resolve whatever conflict until the aid of others has been enlisted. While seemingly an innocent message about teamwork, it is also a nasty indictment of individuality. The individual cannot succeed unless they subordinate their own aspirations to that of the group. This is group-think writ large. Much has been done to denigrate individuality, independent thinking and personal creativity in general. The contraints of Politically Correct speech and thought fiercely discourage any such independent-mindedness.

Children raised on the axioms listed above are unable to make rational assessments of the world around them. With their idividuality battered down and stunted at every turn, their true sense of self-worth — the kind that is earned — rapidly deteriorates. Please do not confuse this with the "self-esteem" drivel being spewed in classrooms today. That pap merely instills a sense of entitlement without actual merit. As one wag observed:

Never has there been a generation so full of self esteem, or for so little reason.

What can be expected from a society where attempts are made to eliminate scholastic grading? Regardless of achievement, all children are magically equal. What better way to quell any sense of ambition, any dreams? Can anybody really hope that these philosophical zombies would rise up against their own murderers when all their training has been to make them into sacrificial lambs?

A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

Good catch, Frank G. Does anyone else get a whiff of Sun Myung Moon out of this? "Ismail Ax" certainly carries biblical connotations. Plus, the sort of mind control needed to blank out all morality and compassion — as this killer certainly needed to — is a hallmark of the Moon organization.

Thank you David D. for the link to Cho's writings.

"You commited a conspiracy. Just like the what the government has done to John Lennon and Marylin Monroe."

Polite society used to call this "an active imagination". I wonder what other conspiracy theories this killer subscribed to. His computer files should prove quite enlightening.

Finally, a moment of tribute to Derek O'Dell and, especially, Liviu Librescu who gave his life trying to save those of his students. Both are heroes in a time sorely lacking of them.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-17 16:04||   2007-04-17 16:04|| Front Page Top

#74 I do believe it was the play you found, Dave. I read the first two pages: the characters are one-dimensional and unsympathetic, the dialog does not set up or advance the putative plot -- in fact the lines of each of the characters do not respond to those of the previous speaker, Mr. Cho clearly belonged to the "shout and cuss" school of play writing, in which idiom he was nonetheless clearly uncomfortable. Based on the first two pages, it seems to me the man was completely incapable of writing creatively. I would have graded the script an F, especially at the senior level. If his teacher did, and it was a required course without which he couldn't get his degree, perhaps that was what set him off. His parents apparently own a dry cleaning shop, and he has a sister at Princeton. Lots of pressure to make good, on someone already fragile... and possibly about to fail.
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-17 16:12||   2007-04-17 16:12|| Front Page Top

#75 So he had two firearms, several magazines, a lot of ammunition, and a tactical vest.

We've now seen the first roommate interviews, and none of them have mentioned seeing handguns, ammunition, or a tactical vest.

Where did he keep this stuff for over a month?
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 16:47||   2007-04-17 16:47|| Front Page Top

#76 According to the anti-gun nuts, since a handgun was used by an individual, the handgun is at fault. Therefore all guns should be banned. By the same logic I purpose banning all Koreans since there was a Korean actuator attached to the trigger of the handgun at the time.
Posted by BrerRabbit 2007-04-17 16:59||   2007-04-17 16:59|| Front Page Top

#77 no matter what , he was fuckin idiot and i bet the dry cleaniong buisness doesn't last much longer
Posted by sinse 2007-04-17 17:03||   2007-04-17 17:03|| Front Page Top

#78 "Where did he keep this stuff for over a month?"

I was wondering about that, too. That was a rather large kit of stuff he had. Also, where did he work when he was filing the serial numbers off the two pistols? Gun steel isn't soft, and that would have taken a LOT of work and probably would have made a lot of noise, too.

Did he have a hideaway somewhere?

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 17:07||   2007-04-17 17:07|| Front Page Top

#79 Possibly he filed in his parents' basement, and stored the stuff in the trunk of his car -- if he had a car.
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-17 17:14||   2007-04-17 17:14|| Front Page Top

#80 IIRC the glock doesn't have a serial number stamped onto the frame (because the frame is polymer/plastic)

Instead, there is a metal badge that is attached to the frame forward of the trigger guard. If my memory is correct, I think you can remove the serial number with some strong wire cutters and cut away the plastic that it is attached to.
Posted by Anon4021 2007-04-17 17:26||   2007-04-17 17:26|| Front Page Top

#81 Dave:

Also, where did he work when he was filing the serial numbers off the two pistols? Gun steel isn't soft, and that would have taken a LOT of work and probably would have made a lot of noise, too.

Yes, indeed, but can we be sure that Cho did the filing? Why would he want to file off the serial number off a firearm he purchased legally? Removing a serial number from a firearm is a felony, IIRC. Plus, he had the Glock's purchase receipt in his pocket, according to reports. That doesn't add up. Then we can't be sure where the second firearm came from. If it was purchased legally, an FFL dealer should have the info.

All accounts seem to indicate that Cho was cool and methodical with his execution. That kind of firearms handling, especially the magazine loading, and the multiple shots per victim, doesn't come naturally. It takes practice, and possibly training. How much practice could he have done within a month if the firearms and the ammo were off premises?

Simply purchasing two handguns does not give a shooter the confidence to perform a mass slaying. This whole episode was carefully planned.

1) He had at least one draft of a bomb threat, and it's likely he was involved with the previous threats.
2) The exit doors were chained from the inside
3) Victims were shot methodically.
4) He had the magazines, the tactical vest
5) He knew where the people were.

For me, it is near impossible to believe that anyone who obsessed about such a crime would use brand-new firearms without first making sure they were in top working order. And there's only one way to do that.

Did Cho own a car?

Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 17:30||   2007-04-17 17:30|| Front Page Top

#82 The speeding ticket. So at least at one point he had wheels.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 17:31||   2007-04-17 17:31|| Front Page Top

#83 http://www.geocities.com/usafcaptain/crease.gif

That's the best pic I can find of a glock's serial number badge. It's that shiny strip.
Posted by Anon4021 2007-04-17 17:32||   2007-04-17 17:32|| Front Page Top

#84 Here's the Walther P22's serial number.

http://www.tonyrogers.com/weapons/images/walther_p22_right_1200px.jpg
Posted by Anon4021 2007-04-17 17:36||   2007-04-17 17:36|| Front Page Top

#85 "Why would he want to file off the serial number off a firearm he purchased legally? Removing a serial number from a firearm is a felony, IIRC. Plus, he had the Glock's purchase receipt in his pocket, according to reports. That doesn't add up."

Yeah, but: you're trying to impose "normal people" logic on someone who's obviously crazier'n a shithouse rat. Who knows what crazy loony logic his mind was following?

And yeah, removing the serial #'s from a firearm is a felony-- but so is murdering 33 people.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 17:37||   2007-04-17 17:37|| Front Page Top

#86 Bottom line is, with all the prep this perp did before the massacre, I'm puzzled why no one got suspicious.
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 17:40||   2007-04-17 17:40|| Front Page Top

#87 Dave:

Yeah, but: you're trying to impose "normal people" logic on someone who's obviously crazier'n a shithouse rat. Who knows what crazy loony logic his mind was following?

And yeah, removing the serial #'s from a firearm is a felony-- but so is murdering 33 people.


But smart enough not to get caught with that stuff until he was ready to go. Besides, if he was ready to check-out after gunning down dozens of innocent people, why bother removing the serial numbers? Cho was probably cool enough to watch and evaluate LE response to 2 or 3 bomb threats and to chain exit doors.

When did he chain the doors? If he did so before the second attack, did anyone report to maintenance that the doors were obstructed?
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 17:51||   2007-04-17 17:51|| Front Page Top

#88 When did he chain the doors? If he did so before the second attack, did anyone report to maintenance that the doors were obstructed?

If most reports are to be believed, the second attack started at 9:15: classes start at 9:00. He was probably chaining the doors from just after 9:00, with everyone settling into class, until 9:15.
Posted by Hokie Low 2007-04-17 17:59||   2007-04-17 17:59|| Front Page Top

#89 Lotsa "why's", damned few answers...
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 17:59||   2007-04-17 17:59|| Front Page Top

#90 I'm really curious about how he managed to chain the doors. I guess he probably didn't need a whole lot of chain to do so, but I'm trying to picture this guy hauling chains, locks, guns, and ammo. Or were the chains already there but had enough slack left that one could loop an end around and lock the doors provided one brought a lock?

And how many doors did the shooter lock in this manner? Or was this just one particular stairwell exit that was normally kept locked despite the danger?

I'm also curious about the poor girl he shot in the first encounter. She was a 19YO freshman, while he was a 23YO senior. I wonder if he was just infatuated with her looks, because nothing I've read indicates he would talk to anyone, much less a pretty girl.
Posted by Dar">Dar  2007-04-17 18:30||   2007-04-17 18:30|| Front Page Top

#91 "I wonder if he was just infatuated with her looks, because nothing I've read indicates he would talk to anyone, much less a pretty girl."

I recall a Peanuts cartoon from eons ago; one of the characters, Charlie Brown I think, is telling about an infatuation (I'm paraphrasing from memory, here): "I saw the most beautiful girl today. I just HAD to speak to her. I tried and tried to work up the courage to go over to her and strike up a conversation. But I couldn't. So I punched her."

Frustration leading to shame leading to anger. Funny in that context of long ago, sort of; but not in this one.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 18:39||   2007-04-17 18:39|| Front Page Top

#92 More questions:
1) Was the girl killed in the dorm (freshman?) seeing an engineering student? Cho seems to have had it in for engineers for a while (bomb threats?, chain purchase) and as an English major (and still ungraduated at age 23) Cho was about as far from Engineering as one can get.
2) Cho was about two years behind his HS class - what was he doing? Changing majors? Transferring schools? Giving the army a try (US or SK)? Being treated in a psychiatric institute?
3) How the heck did he get so proficient with those guns? Even at close range it has to take a lot of practice to get better than a 50% kill ratio with guns with a calibre starting with less than .4.
4) How can we prevent psychos from getting guns - they clearly should not have them - without also preventing everyone else from (legally) getting guns?
5) What's with the 'Ismail Ax' reference? Some kind of 'gamer' reference?

I knew a guy in college who tried to castrate himself because some girl did not return his attentions. Wierd, but sure preferable to this.

Not enough (if any) Todd Beamer types at VPI - er, VT, these days. Of course, that's true of the whole country as well.
Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore  2007-04-17 18:41||   2007-04-17 18:41|| Front Page Top

#93 "4) How can we prevent psychos from getting guns - they clearly should not have them - without also preventing everyone else from (legally) getting guns?"

Put the psychos away like we used to do, instead of letting them wander loose to menace the rest of us. ISTR some major "rights" legislation, maybe back in the early 70's (?), that let them all loose and severely restricted involuntary committments. Mental institutions emptied out overnight.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2007-04-17 18:49||   2007-04-17 18:49|| Front Page Top

#94 My guess about the chains is that he chained the main double doors shut from the inside, using a short length of chain to tie the handles of the two doors together from the inside. There's no way he chained every door in the building shut: it's a 70,000 square foot building with multiple underground connections to adjacent buildings. My guess is (if this was as meticulously planned as it's starting to appear) the chains were to keep the swat teams out, not the students in.
Posted by Hokie Low 2007-04-17 18:50||   2007-04-17 18:50|| Front Page Top

#95  5) What's with the 'Ismail Ax' reference? Some kind of 'gamer' reference?

I don't think so. If it were gamer-oriented, there'd be 10,000 Google entries for it.

I linked the only Googled online reference to "Ismail Ax" (above).

Whoever (or whatever) "Ismail Ax" is, it was worth Cho's time to not only sign the name to his last work written on earth, but also to write it on his flesh before he shot and killed dozens of people.

And before he shot himself.

My opinion, FWIW, and with hardly a clue, is that "Ismail Ax" is a living, breathing person.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-17 19:22||   2007-04-17 19:22|| Front Page Top

#96 This from commenter januarius on April 17, 2007 at 12:55 PM

This guy was an English major. In James Fennimore Cooper’s story “The Prairie,” Ishmael Bush is a settler trying to free himself from the confines of civilization.

He sets out with two key items, a gun and an axe. Each has a symbolic meaning. The axe — which can either kill or create shelter — stand for both creation and destruction. Might this be the meaning of the words on his arm?

Could be. I’m reading The Prairie right now. However, the Leatherstocking Tales (The Deerslayer, The Pioneers, etc.)have been really forgotten by most English departments. Most English majors aren’t exposed to this literature these days. Anyway the name is spelled differently. It is Ishmael Bush in the Prairie, not Ismail. But interesting theory.
Posted by Sherry">Sherry  2007-04-17 19:30||   2007-04-17 19:30|| Front Page Top

#97 incrementandexcrement 4/17/2007 12:36:58 pm

Im calling it:

Ismael A+

not Ax.

Calls himself Ismael, wanted blood type on arm.
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-17 19:42||   2007-04-17 19:42|| Front Page Top

#98 Dave re #93: it wasn't 'rights' but cold, hard cash that emptied the mental institutions. States looked at their spiraling costs for inpatient mental health facilities and wanted an alternative. Not-so-coincidentially, there was a movement in psychiatry that said that most inpatients could be kept instead at homes and halfway houses and then treated as outpatients.

So states promised to do that -- they succeeded in closing most inpatient facilities, but somehow the money required for good outpatient treatment just never materialized.
Posted by Steve White">Steve White  2007-04-17 21:16||   2007-04-17 21:16|| Front Page Top

#99 Some consolation that the VT gun free zone wasn't a nuclear free zone....
Posted by Grigum and Tenille6799 2007-04-17 21:36||   2007-04-17 21:36|| Front Page Top

#100 We need no-nut zones. Keep the liberals away too.
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2007-04-17 21:56||   2007-04-17 21:56|| Front Page Top

#101 Grigum and Tenille??? LOL
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-17 23:00||   2007-04-17 23:00|| Front Page Top

23:57 RD
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