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2007-09-09 Olde Tyme Religion
Our followers ‘must live in peace until strong enough to wage jihad’
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Posted by john frum 2007-09-09 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views ]  Top
 File under: Global Jihad 

#1 These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.

Like I said yesterday, I didn't realize there was a difference.
And who's the starry eyed dunce who wrote this that thinks that there is?
Posted by tu3031 2007-09-09 00:37||   2007-09-09 00:37|| Front Page Top

#2 Buttom line up front (BLUF):

....aggressive jihads were waged . . . because it is was truly commendable for establishing the grandeur of the religion of Allah.”
Posted by Besoeker 2007-09-09 01:38||   2007-09-09 01:38|| Front Page Top

#3 It's in the Koran. You could look it up.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2007-09-09 01:54||   2007-09-09 01:54|| Front Page Top

#4 It is with great sorrow that I have had to add Osama bin Laden's name back onto the same list that I have cheerfully added that of Muhammad Taqi Usmani.

Kill these less than two score of big turbans and we will have made huge strides in winning the war on global terrorism:

1. Osama bin Laden
2. Ayman al-Zawahiri
3. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
4. Ayatolla Kahmeini
5. Mullah Muhammad Omar
6. Abu Bakar Ba'asyir (Bashir)
7. Moqtada Sadr,
8. Abu Hamza al-Masri,
9. Mullah Krekar (AKA: Abu Sayyid Qutb),
10. Khaled Meshal
11. Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah
12. Ismail Haniya
13. Mohammed Abbas
14. Yusuf al-Qaradawi
15. Tariq Ramadan
16. Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali
17. imam Omar Bakri Mohammed
18. imam Abdel-Samie Mahmoud Ibrahim Moussa
19. imam Sheikh SyeSyed Mubarik Ali Gilani
20. Sheikh Abdullah al-Faisal
21. Sheik Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi
22. Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar
23. Prince Sultan Ibn Abd al-Aziz
24. Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz
25. Prince Nayef bin Abdulaziz
26. Muhammad Taqi Usmani

Once again, a bottom-up strategy against Islam WILL NOT WORK. Only a top-down approach will yield any results.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-09 02:21||   2007-09-09 02:21|| Front Page Top

#5 [dripping_sarc] Where did you find this? CNN? FOX? ABC? Reuters? AP? MSNBC? UPI? CNBC?[/dripping_sarc]
Posted by gorb 2007-09-09 05:53||   2007-09-09 05:53|| Front Page Top

#6 Kill these less than two score of big turbans and we will have made huge strides in winning the war on global terrorism:

Bull. The root of the problem will still be there. I'm not saying these people should be allowed to live, but I doubt we'd make any meaningful progress with their deaths.
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2007-09-09 10:37||   2007-09-09 10:37|| Front Page Top

#7  “Even in those days . . . aggressive jihads were waged . . . because it was truly commendable for establishing the grandeur of the religion of Allah.”

Ergo, you're objection to the "Crusades" was that it was done upon you rather than you doing it upon other? Seems clear to me.
Posted by Procopius2k 2007-09-09 10:37||   2007-09-09 10:37|| Front Page Top

#8 The root of the problem will still be there.

Nowhere do I argue otherwise. The fact still remains that terrorist organizations rely heavily upon personal networks and secretive contact structures. Quite often all of these pivot upon the trust of one specific individual. By their very nature terrorist organizations are not transparent. Leadership intentionally does not share knowledge or resources save on a need-to-know basis. Decapitating these central figures cripples the daily operations of these organizations. Wretchard's observations about Palestinian terrorists apply as a whole to Islamic terrorism in general:
The Israeli strike against the terrorist top tier exploits the weakness inherent in terrorist organizations which are unstable alliances based on a delicate balance of internal intimidation. None of them, the Palestinian Authority included, are either transparent or accountable. They are exceptionally vulnerable to changes in their leadership. They can stand the loss of any number of teenage fighters or youthful suicide bombers without much damage but are rocked -- as Yassin's death illustrates -- by death at the top.

Islamic societies are high context cultures. Vital information is treated as arcane knowledge in order to eliminate competition while maximizing personal advantage and prestige. For Westerners in low context societies, these concepts often seem alien and incomprehensible. The crippling effects of high context culture are visible wherever it manifests. China and Japan both suffer from debilitating superiority complexes and institutionalized xenophobia which confer few benefits in exchange. The authoritarian structure of both societies historically has limited their scope of innovation and creativity. Islam takes high context culture to its pinnacle nadir. Violence substitutes for problem-solving, lies and deceit displace honest negotiation, xenophobia is expanded to include Abject Gender Apartheid and all of this is used to prop up a societal construct so brittle that political or religious freedom cannot be tolerated for an instant.

It is precisely this "brittleness" that I propose we should take advantage of. Witness how—since Yassin and Rantissi's death—the Palestinians are fragmented and utterly adrift politically. High context cultures center upon strongman-style leadership. Eliminating those political centers of gravity has an intensely destabilizing effect. One need only to examine post-Saddam Iraq for proof of this.

No, killing the above list of Islam's elite will not uproot the central problem, which is Islam itself. However, it will certainly take a huge amount of wind out of terrorism's sails and leave it rudderless at a very vulnerable point in time. Either we deal strategic body-blows to Islam's aristocracy or we carpet bomb entire nations into bloody mud. I'd prefer that we try terminating terrorism's kingpins before moving on to more drastic measures.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-09 11:20||   2007-09-09 11:20|| Front Page Top

#9 Killing a few islamic leaders will have almost no effect. Nazi Party peak membership was 7 million. Not coincidentally, that's also the number of Germans killed on WW2. Islam membership is 98+% in most muslim countries. In other words they have a hell lot more depth that the Nazis or Commies could ever dream of. Victory means pushing the muslims into smaller and smaller territory until none exists. Welcome to the Hundred Years War, Part II.
Posted by ed 2007-09-09 12:02||   2007-09-09 12:02|| Front Page Top

#10 Killing a few islamic leaders will have almost no effect.

How do you reconcile that with the way Yassin's death induced Palestinian chaos?

In other words they have a hell lot more depth that the Nazis or Commies

In light of how the vast majority of Muslims subsist in poverty level conditions, their ability to participate or contribute cannot be compared with low context Nazi Germany. Germany's general WWII population represented "interchangable parts" to a far greater degree than an average Muslim does for modern terrorism. The overall education and income levels of Nazi German citizens made them highly useful towards achieving party goals. Nowhere does that apply to the world's Muslim population as a whole. Consider how Islam's clerical elite routinely monopolize wealth and knowledge. It is this lopsided aspect of high context Muslim culture that I seek to capitalize upon through targeted killings.

Make no mistake, I agree that Islam is the real problem but we owe it to ourselves to try summary executions over mass annihilation. If you recall my own prediction of a Muslim holocaust, then it should be clear that I do not hold out a lot of hope either. If only for the sake of moral clarity, we need to try this as a precursor to far more destructive measures.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-09 12:41||   2007-09-09 12:41|| Front Page Top

#11 Killing a few islamic leaders will have almost no effect

fine. How about killing a lot of Islamic Leaders™. Think that would? I do
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-09-09 12:43||   2007-09-09 12:43|| Front Page Top

#12 Islamo-fascism is not driven from below... it is a creation of the educated elite of certain Muslim states, a reaction to loss of political, military and economic power.

Islamism survives because the hard core shelters within a larger population that is easily influenced by mullahs and political leaders. This is the mass base that guarantees that other groups cannot threaten the Islamist core elite.

Also essential to the survival of the hard core is another group, one that presents a 'moderate' westernized lifestyle to the outside. If this group did not exist, open conflict with militarily superior states would destroy the Islamists.

Posted by john frum 2007-09-09 13:05||   2007-09-09 13:05|| Front Page Top

#13 Zenster, the 26 on your list are not even a drop in a sea. In the islamic world there are more mosques than gas stations and just about every imam in them would be a bin Laden or Khomenei if given the opportunity because that is what the koran tells them to do. Now are you advocating dropping a 2000 pounder on each and every mosque during Friday prayers? I do believe it will come to that and more, but the political conditions are not yet set for that.
Posted by ed 2007-09-09 13:09||   2007-09-09 13:09|| Front Page Top

#14 just about every imam in them would be a bin Laden or Khomenei if given the opportunity because that is what the koran tells them to do.

Desire does not equate to actuality. As john frum notes:
Islamo-fascism is not driven from below... it is a creation of the educated elite of certain Muslim states [snip] Islamism survives because the hard core shelters within a larger population that is easily influenced by mullahs and political leaders.

The garden variety mullah or imam commands nowhere near enough power or economic might to assume the stature of those I have listed. If you want the sea to be safer, you don't kill the mudsharks. You go after the great whites, hammerheads and makos. The same applies to Islam, go after the big predators.

are you advocating dropping a 2000 pounder on each and every mosque during Friday prayers?

Not yet. I'd like to try something a little less drastic. Like I said, if only for the moral clarity.

I do believe it will come to that and more, but the political conditions are not yet set for that.

I agree. I also think that one of the precursors to those "political conditions" involves firing an unmistakable shot across Islam's bow. Capping their board of directors is that sort of message. If such a measure does not give Islam some sort of pause, then that will be a clear signal to the West that Islam is incorrigible and requires sterilization.

I want a world free of Islam's threat. Period. While I do believe in incremental escalation, I do not think that the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq even qualify as part of that scheme. The immense scope of this issue requires much more specific measures with exceptionally vivid consequences. Nothing to date has provided Islam with such an unequivocal object lesson. Should the loss of their aristocracy give Islam not even the least pause, then that will be all the justification we need for escalating to whatever degree that delivers indisputable victory.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-09 14:30||   2007-09-09 14:30|| Front Page Top

#15 I disagree "islamo-fascism" (I call it islam-in-action) is a top down enterprise. It's not like there is a Hitler leading and making it up as it goes. Islamic ideology has been frozen in amber poop for near 1400 years and is available to any muslim who can read. Anyone who calls islam a peaceful ideology has not read the koran is is lying his ass off. So assassinating a Yasin has little effect. There are many Mashaals or Haniyas waiting for their chance to try on the golden turban. Taking away land, resources, breeding stock is what will defeat islam, not letting them colonize our lands or shoveling money at them.
Posted by ed 2007-09-09 15:01||   2007-09-09 15:01|| Front Page Top

#16 I disagree "islamo-fascism" (I call it islam-in-action) is a top down enterprise. It's not like there is a Hitler leading and making it up as it goes.

Islam's lack of a central authority figure in no way prevents if from being a top-down operation. The absence of a Pope or Führer does not change how an elite class dictates much of Islam's current direction. Witness how petro-dollar driven Saudi Wahhabism has installed itself at Islam's helm. I think it's a very worthwhile experiment to scrape away this gang of überthugs and see if Islam makes any course correction.

So assassinating a Yasin has little effect.

I would hardly call the current Palestinian chaos a "little effect". Yes, there are plenty of other pretenders to the throne but look at how few of them wield the "moral" authority or even sheer popularity of Yassin. I'll also ask you to please imagine the non-trivial amount of bloodshed that would likely ensue from consequent squabbling over the positions vacated on my list. That fallout alone would be worth the price of admission.

Taking away land, resources, breeding stock is what will defeat islam, not letting them colonize our lands or shoveling money at them.

Agreed, completely. Unfortunately, the hot wars required to achieve those goals you mention simply are not affordable. What's more, I no longer place sufficient value on Muslim lives where I'm willing to have our military suffer the huge casualties involved in delicately winnowing out Islam's gangsters. If Islam does not clean its own house, the "moderate" Muslim baby will be thrown out along with the jihadist bathwater. After all, if Muslims refuse to clean house, that is a tacit admission of support for jihad.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-09 15:44||   2007-09-09 15:44|| Front Page Top

#17 Ever heard of Sayyid Qutb? Sayed Maududi?
Posted by john frum 2007-09-09 15:45||   2007-09-09 15:45|| Front Page Top

#18 Wipe out ALL muslim leaders you can name. Hell, wipe out the top 10% of the muslim socio-economic elite. Abra-cadabra. Now would jihad, muslim imperialism, islamo-fascism, islamic supremacy, islam-in-action, whatever, disappear? Of course not. It would still menace the non-muslim peoples just as soon the muslims can reorganize their never ending schemes to conquer the world. It is a bottom up ideology because the muslims' lust for domination is embedded in the hearts of the muslim masses. Just because leadership arise to try and take advantage of this desire does not make it a top down enterprise. Otherwise by this definition, there is no such thing as a bottom up mass movement. The evil lurks in the hearts of the muslims themselves.
Posted by ed 2007-09-09 16:32||   2007-09-09 16:32|| Front Page Top

#19 Ever heard of Sayyid Qutb? Sayed Maududi?

Were Sayyid Qutb still alive, he would top the list before Osama bin Laden.

Now would jihad, muslim imperialism, islamo-fascism, islamic supremacy, islam-in-action, whatever, disappear?

Nobody is insisting that it will. What I am saying is that such a move would certainly buy the West a much-needed bit of breathing room. It would also generate some well-deserved chaos amongst Islam's own ranks. Further, it would provide—what would probably be—a last and only opportunity for moderates to somehow sieze Islam's tiller.

More than anything, it would be a crystal clear message to all Islam that the West's patience has reached an end. While that may sound obvious, nowhere has there been sufficiently serious rhetoric plainly spelling out to Islam the severe consequences that await any refusal to reform.

While I am in no way optimistic about this matter, some billion people certainly deserve at least one last chance to realize the error of their ways. Furthermore, we in the West must obtain sufficient moral certainty to act with determination and finality once all options have been exhausted. Such clarity will only derive from having given Islam—not every but at least—one solid last chance to rehabilitate itself.

If we were to clear Islam's stage of all its leading radical lights only to watch Muslims cheer to the podium another round of jihadist players, that would serve as final notice to the West of what we could expect. Sad as it may seem, we currently suffer from so much uncertainty that such a demonstrative scenario will most likely be required.

I propose we enact that scenario right away. It makes no sense to piddle around with in-country conflicts when the actual issue at hand crosses so many international borders. Add to this Islam's love of stateless proxy aggressors and the need to move up the time-frame of any resolution becomes obvious.

Finally, we simply do not have the luxury of time. Iran's race towards nuclear empowerment is emblematic of an overall proliferation of atomic weapons amongst Muslim majority nations. This is wholly unacceptable in every respect and warrants immediate action all by itself.

It is a bottom up ideology because the muslims' lust for domination is embedded in the hearts of the muslim masses. Just because leadership arise to try and take advantage of this desire does not make it a top down enterprise.

ed, here you make a damn fine point. While I could try and show how this lust for domination largely results from radicalization, at day's end the bulk of this globe's Muslim community DOES NOT reject such imperialism and thereby proves your point.

More than anything, ed, please permit me to express some real appreciation for your willingness to constructively engage on this topic. It is odd in the extreme to note how so few of Rantburg's heavy hitters have bothered to weigh in on this very timely issue.

Again—all said and done—I believe rather firmly that we share quite similar goals and hopes for this world. Rest assured that both of us look forward to a time when airline security will no longer be so critical and not one single woman on earth worries about genital mutilation.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-09 17:31||   2007-09-09 17:31|| Front Page Top

#20 Were Sayyid Qutb still alive, he would top the list before Osama bin Laden.

Actually that was directed at Ed.

Point is Islamofascism is NOT 7th century Islam.

The ideology as developed by Qutb and Maududi is a fusion of post-enlightenment western ideas, especially fascism and fundamentalist Islam.

It has an ideology and very powerful patrons.

It can be decapitated. It can be discredited by humiliation and military defeat, leaving others the space to create a version of Islam compatible with the modern civilization. The Muslim masses will follow.



Posted by john frum 2007-09-09 20:24||   2007-09-09 20:24|| Front Page Top

#21 Actually that was directed at Ed.

I knew that, john. Thank you, anyway.

It can be decapitated. It can be discredited by humiliation and military defeat, leaving others the space to create a version of Islam compatible with the modern civilization.

Islam had best hope you are damn right.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-09-09 20:36||   2007-09-09 20:36|| Front Page Top

#22 Islam had best hope you are damn right.

We should all hope he's right. Otherwise doing what's needed to rid the world of Islamofascism will be expensive for everyone, even if most expensive for the ummah.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-09-09 20:44||   2007-09-09 20:44|| Front Page Top

#23 Seriously...I am getting near wanting to isolate all of islam in the ME with an electric fence around them all.
Posted by anymouse">anymouse  2007-09-09 23:43|| http://theworldsworstblog-really.blogspot.com/]">[http://theworldsworstblog-really.blogspot.com/]  2007-09-09 23:43|| Front Page Top

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