Article

2007-12-20 Iraq

Victor Davis Hanson - Has War Changed, or Have We?

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Pappy 2007-12-20 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11144 views ] Top

#1 "American statesmen need to provide constant explanations to a public not well versed in historynot mere assertionsof what misfortunes to expect when they take the nation to war.....Only that way can we reestablish our national wartime objective as victory, a goal that brings with it the acceptance of tragic errors as well as appreciation of heroic and brilliant conduct."

Will someone send this passage to W, please?

Posted by no mo uro 2007-12-20 06:00|| 2007-12-20 06:00|| Front Page Top

#2 It seems to me that about the time WWII broke out, we had enough bad things going on that we wanted to feel good about something finally. We saw a chance with WW II (besides, losing would have been a bi+tch!), so we prosecuted the war with gusto. Now, we have enough good things going on that we want to feel bad. What better way than to use the WoT in every way possible to glean every bit of pain out of it for ourselves that we can? Aren't we so pious/righteous now that we are protesting our own actions and second-guessing every move we make, doing everything we can to extend the war or even lose it? Doesn't a bit of suffering from time to time make you feel more alive, no matter how we come across it? Heck, make sure Iran gets nukes. That would be the gift that keeps on giving even after you're long tired of it!

I think humans need good and bad feelings to balance each other otherwise bad things happen to our brains. If we can't find things that are good enough or bad enough, we manufacture them. One way or another. Ignoring reality and falling for conspiracies are good ways to justify and ignore allowing things to deteriorate until they are miserable. Of course, you better have the oomph to pull one out of the hat at the end or things will get big-time bad after that.

I read that Mohamhead is the second most popular boys name in Britain now.

Posted by gorb 2007-12-20 06:18|| 2007-12-20 06:18|| Front Page Top

#3 Click on the link, and read the whole thing. Then go buy Hanson's book, A War Like No Other. I'm not a big fan of Athenians v. Spartans, but I recommend it to any and all 'Burgers.

Posted by Bobby 2007-12-20 06:55|| 2007-12-20 06:55|| Front Page Top

#4 "Let him who desires peace prepare for war. "
Flavius Renatus Vegetius

Posted by doc 2007-12-20 09:27|| 2007-12-20 09:27|| Front Page Top

#5 I have not read a VDH book that did not make me question my opinions and beliefs about history. He is excellent.

Posted by bman 2007-12-20 11:44|| 2007-12-20 11:44|| Front Page Top

#6 Smart bombs and proportionate retaliation have hardened the enemy. Hanson hasn't learned that. He is a knee jerk supporter of limited war; only total war will win the GWOT.

Posted by McZoid 2007-12-20 12:50|| 2007-12-20 12:50|| Front Page Top

#7 As good as Hanson is - and that's good, especially in bringing historical context that many of us know but that is utterly lacking in political discourse media, education, and general awareness - he does have a tendency to recycle or seemingly accept some of the myths that have arisen WRT Iraq. The already self-disbanded and incapable Iraqi army being of any real use in '03-'05, the supposed heavy-handed early occupation behavior in a place where the locals lacked the capacity or integrity or mutual trust to do almost anything correctly, and others.

It's not an academic dispute to settle on the actual errors - especially because it seems to me that one error was/is actually a systemic problem, i.e. the abandonment of common sense and an offensive mindset for addled concepts that vastly over-rate the importance of non-military actions in establishing security. I'm talking about the uniforms, not the civilians.

To echo another commenter, VDH's reference to the need for public communication of substantive issues and perspectives is clearly one of - perhaps THE - greatest failure of W and his team. It goes way beyond preventing the sort of shameful and pathetic national hysteria we've seen WRT Iraq (I speak here of behavior of the large usually pragmatic portion of the population and the cowardly members of the political class who should know better, like Lugar, Bayh, et al). It has precisely nothing to do with W's approval rating or mid-term elections.

It's about crucial WoT concepts that will of neccessity guide any policymaker with actual responsibilities (incl. any Dems who might somehow find themselves as the deciders on the executive side). Pre-emption: the logic that recognizes "better safe than sorry" is in fact the only rational approach to the combo of WMD and global terrorism. Intelligence: the closely linked recognition that the burden of risk must be placed on rogue states and others who are WMD proliferators and terrorism enablers - perfect intel is not going to happen, and we cannot manage our risk margins as though the intel will ever provide us with clear direction.

The failure to explain, defend, and elaborate on these key issues, among others, is a way in which W and his team have actually damaged the national security for the medium-term, even as they (mostly) promote the national security my making the difficult and risky decisions that those operational concepts require. Odd, and beyond frustrating.

But I'm a bit worried about both - the continuing attachment to illusions about how to pacify a place like Iraq among military officers, and the failure of the civilian leadership to educate the public about the actual basis for their decisions. Both augur poorly for the near future. VDH touches on one and compltely misses the other.

Posted by Verlaine 2007-12-20 14:06|| 2007-12-20 14:06|| Front Page Top

#8 Until a couple of weeks ago, we were getting a lot of lengthy comments here on the burg that were largely a waste of bandwidth.

Thanks to Verlaine for reminding us that a lengthy comment does not have to be a waste.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-12-20 14:35|| 2007-12-20 14:35|| Front Page Top

#9 We managed to liberate Paris without the French deciding the appropriate response was to loot the Louvre. If we have made any mistake consistently, it has been to radically overestimate the moral capacity not only of the enemy but of most of our allies.

As for the statesmen VDH calls upon to educate the public: Would there were such statesmen. Higher education has been destroyed by the Frankfurt School and there are precious few left who know our old ways, who even glimpse the depths of their ignorance. Islam means "submission", not peace. But so simple a fact escapes the imagination of our media, academic and political elites; even that of this supposed warmongering President.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-12-20 16:23|| 2007-12-20 16:23|| Front Page Top

#10 He is a knee jerk supporter of limited war; only total war will win the GWOT.

Sez he who won't be the one planning it, waging it, or dealing with the after-effects.

Posted by Pappy 2007-12-20 19:12|| 2007-12-20 19:12|| Front Page Top

#11 As good as Hanson is - and that's damn good

IMO, he fails to grasp that Muslims do not engage in war the way he understands war (for limited objectives, and out of recognition that what goes around comes around). In fact, far as they're concerned, they're not engaging in war at all. They're engaging in domestication (or, failing that, extermination) of wild animals.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-12-20 23:07|| 2007-12-20 23:07|| Front Page Top

23:56 rjschwarz
23:54 rjschwarz
23:53 rjschwarz
23:51 rjschwarz
23:39 Steefauctofex
23:20 JosephMendiola
23:16 JosephMendiola
23:07 g(r)omgoru
23:00 JosephMendiola
22:59 msbobbie
22:53 SteveS
22:26 twobyfour
22:22 Pholugum Stalin1270
22:20 JosephMendiola
22:18 Pholugum Stalin1270
22:16 Pholugum Stalin1270
22:16 Frank G
22:13 JosephMendiola
22:12 JosephMendiola
22:04 Alaska Paul
22:03 Tencz57
22:02 crosspatch
22:00 Mike
21:59 JosephMendiola