Article

2008-06-30 Europe

French marines shoot children in bungled hostage display

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Posted by tipper 2008-06-30 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11126 views ] Top

#1 I suppose the blanks were in a box labeled "for war use only".

Posted by gromky 2008-06-30 04:56|| 2008-06-30 04:56|| Front Page Top

#2 Very bizarre that nobody took a look at the buillets when he received the ammo: they are color coded.

In a lighter way according to poppular legend at one point British and French had blank grenades teh same same color than the other side live grenades. It made for some soiled pants when during joint maneuvers a French grenade landed near a British soldier or the opposite.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-06-30 05:35|| 2008-06-30 05:35|| Front Page Top

#3 If they used the wrong color of seal tape on the mags I can see how it might have happened. It's still a biggie that someone should fess up to, as if they didn't feel bad enough already. This sort of thing carries its own punishment.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-06-30 09:22|| 2008-06-30 09:22|| Front Page Top

#4 Gas-operated weapons can't work with blanks unless there is a blank adapter on the muzzle. Without the bullet, the gas pressure is not high enough to operate the system. Nor is there enough recoil to work a recoil system.
So blank adapters constrict the muzzle opening to allow for sufficiently high velocity. Which means a bullet coming out would blow up the weapon.
Hollywood puts constrictions inside the barrels so the gas will operate the weapon without bullets. But that ruins the weapon, so the removable adapter is used by the military.
In order to feed properly, blanks have elongated cases to take the place of the protruding round. IOW, they look different. They feel different.
So my question is how a weapon adapted temporarily for the use of blanks could actually fire a live round.
How could somebody loading a magazine not see the difference between live rounds and blanks?

If the ammo point got mixed up and issued magazines with live ammo, we still have the problem of how a live round didn't blow up a weapon temporarily adapted for blanks.

There may be new technology to allow the use of blanks without needing to adapt the weapon at all. Can you imagine a weapon which could, theoretically, fire alternative blanks and live rounds, operate as designed? Me neither.
IMO, this was deliberate. Hard to figure out how it happened by accident.

Posted by Richard Aubrey">Richard Aubrey 2008-06-30 09:48|| 2008-06-30 09:48|| Front Page Top

#5 The soldier who fired the shots from his FAMAS assault rifle, a sergeant described as experienced with no history of behavioural or psychological problems, was detained following the incident.

"I cannot rule out anything because we don't know what might be going on in a man's head," Defence Minister Herve Morin told France Info radio.

He said the shooter had first fired a magazine of blanks and then loaded a fresh magazine but this time with live bullets.

"Why did he have it in his pocket?" asked Morin, who accompanied Sarkozy on his visit to the Carcassonne hospital.

He said an experienced soldier would not confuse blanks and real bullets, noting that the two munitions are packed into different-coloured magazines.

Posted by tu3031 2008-06-30 10:24|| 2008-06-30 10:24|| Front Page Top

#6 Richard Aubrey is spot on about blanks-firing guns; the Famas I was issued during my time as a draftee could fire blanks and cycle only when fitted with a special muzzle device screwed onto the barrel, no way to miss it; plus, blanks do not look at all like regular ammo, and not even like grenade-firing ammo... possibly, for such demonstrations, they use simulation ammo that allows the weapon to cycle without that device. Weird screw-up anyway, if that is an accident, someone dropped the ball seriously, probably the armorer, mags are loaded by the firer just before range shooting, but I don't know how it's done for displays?.

Posted by anonymous5089 2008-06-30 11:08|| 2008-06-30 11:08|| Front Page Top

#7 He said the shooter had first fired a magazine of blanks and then loaded a fresh magazine but this time with live bullets.

'Why did he have it in his pocket?' asked Morin, who accompanied Sarkozy on his visit to the Carcassonne hospital.

A criminal act would be somehow easier to explain than a major mistake like that; did he remove that blank-firing device? If not, how did the live bullets got through the muzzle? Punching through it? Could that be missed by the shooter?

Posted by anonymous5089 2008-06-30 11:13|| 2008-06-30 11:13|| Front Page Top

#8 If they used the wrong color of seal tape on the mags I can see how it might have happened.

It is not the seal tape. It is the bullet themselves who, in the French army, are color coded. And you see them when they give you the magazines. Alspo as told by others you need to remove the blank adapter to fire live ammo.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-06-30 11:47|| 2008-06-30 11:47|| Front Page Top

#9 anon.
You'd think the weapon would blow up. The adapter, however it was designed, would be smashed, pieces flying, what remained hooked to the muzzle bent like pretzels. Some of the bullet jacket might even fly backwards, hitting the shooter.

I can't think of what simulation ammo would be, unless it had so much propellant that even without the restriction of a blank adapter, the back pressure would be sufficient to operate the system. That would be a hell of a load. And the rounds would look much different from a live round.

Posted by Richard Aubrey">Richard Aubrey 2008-06-30 11:50|| 2008-06-30 11:50|| Front Page Top

#10 Why are they firing AT spectators in the first place ? Getting ready for EU elections ?

Posted by wxjames 2008-06-30 12:01|| 2008-06-30 12:01|| Front Page Top

#11

These are blank rounds. They look completely different than live rounds since they have the tapered tip. The blank adapter is a big red thing on the end of your rifle to give pressure blowback for the bolt to operate. Unless the French do things completely different from the rest of the world, the would have to be extreme incompetence on the shooter, or a deliberate shooting.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2008-06-30 12:05|| 2008-06-30 12:05|| Front Page Top

#12 I can't think of what simulation ammo would be, unless it had so much propellant that even without the restriction of a blank adapter, the back pressure would be sufficient to operate the system. That would be a hell of a load.

Also when the army we were told to never, never, never fire a blank when under a yard (or was it two?) from the target as it would cause serious burns. That was with our lightly loaded blanks not the ones needed for operating without adpaterr (BTW, when you see them fired at night you understand why of the prohibition)

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-06-30 12:09|| 2008-06-30 12:09|| Front Page Top

#13 There was a very successful TV actor in the US who accidentally killed himself while playing with a gun loaded with blanks. (It was many years ago). Those things can be deadly at "point blank" range.

Posted by Scooter McGruder 2008-06-30 12:19|| 2008-06-30 12:19|| Front Page Top

#14 Put a cleaning rod down the barrel and fire a blank. It will bury itself 3-4 inches in a tree.

We never did anything like that tho. Never. Nope.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2008-06-30 12:30|| 2008-06-30 12:30|| Front Page Top

#15 Darth.

Us neither. It was those clowns from some other company.

Posted by Richard Aubrey">Richard Aubrey 2008-06-30 13:07|| 2008-06-30 13:07|| Front Page Top

#16 Anyway, all of which means either he didn't have his blank adapter on, or he took it off. But he fired a mag of blanks, presumably succesfully, first.
Some kind of change would have had to be made to fire more than one round of live ammo. Which is to say, between mags.
He could change mags, close the action to pick up the first round, fire it, and then....zilch.

Curiouser.

Posted by Richard Aubrey">Richard Aubrey 2008-06-30 13:10|| 2008-06-30 13:10|| Front Page Top

#17 Also he was on full automatic. Not the smartes thing to do when the goal is to release not kill hostages.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-06-30 14:27|| 2008-06-30 14:27|| Front Page Top

#18 It is probable that since normal ammo would go cleanly throgh tyhe bad guy and strike the hostage behind that thse FAMAS were modified in order to fire ammo with lighter powder loads than normal. It possible those modified FAMASses would not need adapters for firing blank ammo.

However there is still the unaswered question about why he was on full automatics.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-06-30 14:40|| 2008-06-30 14:40|| Front Page Top

#19 #13 - Scooter, it was Jon-Erik Hexum, in 1984.

Posted by Rambler in California">Rambler in California 2008-06-30 14:53|| 2008-06-30 14:53|| Front Page Top

#20 I think the first few rounds fragmented until the blank firing adapter was destroyed and then intact bullets exited the muzzle. Explains the why only 5 had serious wounds.

Still doesn't explain why in the world a professional could not tell from sight or weight that he was loading a live ammo mag or would point a weapon into a crowd. Even the wadding can cause injury.

Posted by ed 2008-06-30 14:59|| 2008-06-30 14:59|| Front Page Top

#21 JFM.
It's been a long time since I was in. I get the impression that most HRT-types are equipped with something in 9mm. That would take care of the penetration problem and the weapons designed for them don't have to be jiggered, or rejiggered. If a standard auto or semi-auto weapon is modified to work with less gas pressure (can it be done?), what happens if you switch to standard loads? IOW, have you taken them out of the general inventory absent a re-mod?
Why re-invent the wheel?
I've never seen, in person or on television, any kind of demo where the backstop was the audience.
Usually, there's a berm or something. It's generally in the other direction and looks different from the audience. I could always tell which was which....

Posted by Richard Aubrey">Richard Aubrey 2008-06-30 15:26|| 2008-06-30 15:26|| Front Page Top

#22 Tragically, Murphy always has a way of turning up at demos, live-fire exercises and bombing ranges. Whatever happened, my prayers go out to the injured and the families.

Posted by Besoeker 2008-06-30 16:52|| 2008-06-30 16:52|| Front Page Top

#23 Leaving weapon talk alone. Ima throw down a prayer for the yoofs, and also for the young French Marines who are dealing with this.

Posted by .5MT 2008-06-30 19:15|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-06-30 19:15|| Front Page Top

#24 Darth and Richard - Thanks. I now know that, in fact, someone in ANOTHER company did that with the cleaning rod and the blank.

Wudnt my squad, Top, musta been them engineers, they blow sh... I mean blow stuff up all the time.

Scouts Out!

/snicker

Posted by OldSpook 2008-06-30 22:26|| 2008-06-30 22:26|| Front Page Top

#25 Gotta wonder what a live round does to that blank adapter - blow it off the end of the rifle? How they heck do you not notice that?

Posted by OldSpook 2008-06-30 22:27|| 2008-06-30 22:27|| Front Page Top

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