Article

2008-07-21 Olde Tyme Religion

Group says it ordains 3 women Catholic priests

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Posted by Fred 2008-07-21 00:00|| || Front Page|| [4 views ] Top

#1 Group says...

I think only a bishop can ordain a priest, and I doubt if any actual Catholic bishops were in the vicinity...

Posted by PBMcL 2008-07-21 01:32|| 2008-07-21 01:32|| Front Page Top

#2 They can call themselves "real" catholics, but they are no more valid in that claim than would be a hand full of loose sand claiming to be a rock.

They have incurred on themselves, by their own actions, a latae sententiae excommunication from the Roman Catholic Church.

No paperwork is needed. THier deliberate and intentional disavowal of the Catechism of the Catholci Chruch regarding the respect of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, and their denial of the apostolic nature of the Roman Catholic Chruch pretty much shows them to no longer be a willing part of it.

THis is a fundamental nature of one of hte 7 sacraments, and now matter how much they whine, its not going to change. This is part and parcel of the theological basis for the one holy, catholic and apostoloic Church. Unlike preistly celibacy (which is a tradition that has been changed at times), this is an core part of the Church that always has been and always will be the way that it is.

What these women have done is try to force thier heresy into the Church by press release.

Why does anyone pay these people attention, other than they are attention whores?

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 02:02|| 2008-07-21 02:02|| Front Page Top

#3 There is already a way for women to serve the Church. It's called being a nun.

It isn't quite as glamorous and exciting as being called a bishop, "retaking the Church from the patriarchy", and restoring the "good" name of the nonexistent Pope Joan in a presentation to your womyn's group, etc. But to act like there is no avenue for a woman to serve in an official capacity is total crap, and these "ladies" know it.

Posted by Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields 2008-07-21 05:58|| 2008-07-21 05:58|| Front Page Top

#4 I just ordained my cat and my neighbor's hamster as priests in the Roman Catholic Womenpriests, so it's all good times, right?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-07-21 08:43|| 2008-07-21 08:43|| Front Page Top

#5 Dana Reynolds is part of a group calling themselves the "Progressive Catholic Church" here in California. They can call themselves "Mork from Ork" for all I care but that doesn't mean they are Roman Catholic priests. The Progressive Church here in Sacramento is everything you can imagine goes with the word "Progressive". Personally I care not who/how/why/when you pray but like I can't just declare myself Jewish and be Jewish, you can't just call yourself Catholic. You have to abide by and be totured by the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and (if memory serves me) there is a death match involved. ;-) No shortcuts.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2008-07-21 08:52|| 2008-07-21 08:52|| Front Page Top

#6 Its pretty easy - jsut obey the Catechism and so on, and you;re a Roman Catholic.

Don't like the rules? Go found your own church. It worked for Martin Luther and centuries of Protestants. Just don't claim to be a Roman Catholic.

The only possible reason that these women have for doing as they do, given all the protestant outlets available, is that they simply wish to destroy the Roman Catholic Church.

Otherwise, they'd simply become Anglicans or Episcopalians.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 10:20|| 2008-07-21 10:20|| Front Page Top

#7 I think this is the next logical move for Hillary.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-07-21 11:54|| 2008-07-21 11:54|| Front Page Top

#8 While, I firmly believe the Roman Catholic Church (to which I belong) has the right to set its own rules, I do question the legitimacy of restricting women from being priests. Does anyone know the biblical proscription against women priests? I don't know the sources of this long-standing rule and would like to read it. Although, I can guess that it probably stems from the mysgonist nature of mankind 2000 years ago. Of course Jesus took 12 men as his disciples, no one in that day in age would listen to women. In this day in age, I would hope people would know better. Obviously, it is up to the Catholic Church to make the change. One day, perhaps they will realize that God created ALL his children in His image and we are ALL equal in the eyes of the Lord. Until, then I'll keep praying that the Church continues to grow and move closer to His will.

Posted by AllahHateMe 2008-07-21 13:24|| 2008-07-21 13:24|| Front Page Top

#9 I wanna be a fire engine. Or a motor boat.
Doesn't mean I am.

Posted by tu3031 2008-07-21 13:47|| 2008-07-21 13:47|| Front Page Top

#10 2 cows in a pasture.
First cow, "wow have you heard about this mad cow disease; scary stuff."
Second cow, "What do I care, I'm a ~~super bishop~~ helicopter."

Posted by swksvolFF 2008-07-21 14:15|| 2008-07-21 14:15|| Front Page Top

#11 the old testament priesthood passed through the sons of Levi... i think that is the most binding link in scripture for women not being established in the priesthood.

Posted by Abu do you love 2008-07-21 15:25|| 2008-07-21 15:25|| Front Page Top

#12 Just following in the footsteps of the Anglican Church of England. That works so well, doesn't it?

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2008-07-21 15:40|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2008-07-21 15:40|| Front Page Top

#13 "Ring the bell, quench the candle, close the book."

(End of the Catholic ceremony of excommunication)

Posted by mojo">mojo 2008-07-21 15:42|| 2008-07-21 15:42|| Front Page Top

#14 LOL and hats off!! to Frank G. for his most insightful comment on this matter.

Posted by ex-lib 2008-07-21 16:08|| 2008-07-21 16:08|| Front Page Top

#15 Allahateme, you could not be more wrong in your reasoning and theology regarding the male-only priesthood.

As I wrote earlier this month:

The issue is twofold - first some say jesus was bound by the prejudices of His society that he was in, and would have appointed females if he could have gotten away with it. The second follows my examination of that.

First off, Jesus had ample opportunity to appoint women as disciples - and he was definitely not bound by the cultural norms of his day. Eating with tax collectors, healing lepers, praising a Samaritan in a parable, etc. He was not inhibited by cultural norms of his society if they were in the way of working God's will.

Now to the case of women:

Women are constantly in His company, on one occasion even privately-to the surprise of His returning disciples (John 4:27). He heals them, ignoring if necessary the ritual purity laws (Mk 5:25-34) and the inhibition against touching women (Mt 8:14-15). The story of Martha and Mary shows that the Gospel is for women, too, and that there is no separate or distinct teaching for them. When He teaches, His parables contain examples from women's lives (Lk 13:16); and in the end, at the great climax of the Christian story, as the male authors of John (Jn 20:11-18) and Matthew (Mt 28:1-10) record, it is to women that Jesus first appears after His Resurrection: they are the first witnesses (a role given them by Jesus, which they would have been denied in a Jewish court).

He even challenged the chauvinism in Jewish law that allowed men to divorce their wives. He does not hesitate to depart from the Mosaic law in order to affirm the equality of the rights of men and women with regard to the marriage bond (Mk 10:2-11; Mt 19:3-9).

Note there is no sexual connotation to these events either. Rather there is a deep contrast to his actions and those allowed him by his society. Jesus, as the Divine physician, either healed or evangelized women on a public street as with the Samaritan woman, and those acts were considered "blasphemous" according to the customs of that era.

Jesus clearly called only 12 men to be His apostles. Judas abandoned his call; when he was replaced, as described in Acts 1, it is interesting to note that no women were considered for his position, even though there were many women who would have fit the bill as faithful followers. Instead, Matthias was chosen.

One aspect of this issue that mustn't be overlooked is the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary was not chosen to receive either the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood. As Christ is the New Adam, the Blessed Virgin Mary has, as one of her many titles, the distinguished title of the "New Eve." She is a sinless creature, "full of grace" (Lk 1:28-31), who certainly was more qualified to be a priest than any man in the history of the world. However, Jesus came to fulfill the will of the Father, and this certainly did not include given priestly faculties to women, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, His very own mother!

So that eliminates the issue of society and choice - Christ deliberately selected men and there were ample opportunities for Him to do otherwise. So that sets forth a huge Tradition (and is documented well in the Catechism and in the Bible), along with the other sacraments, that we follow even today in the Catholic Church.

The second line of rerasoning is that most who advocate women priesthood see the priest as a leader, and a position of power and guidance, and that those are the primary function of the preisthood. This is your apparent argument, "ahm". And its simply wrong and proceeds form faulty asusmptions.

If this were the case, that its leadership and power that were primary concern of a priest, then a credible and powerful argument could be made for women as priests.

Unfortunately, that is a demonstrably wrong functional view of the priesthood in the Catholic Church and its nearly 2000 years of tradition.

The priest has a special charism, and a primary function that differs greatly from the "social" description above (and what you wrongly believe are the functions of the priesthood)- the description above are ancillary and peripheral, not primary functions of an ordained Catholic priest.

The primary function for the Priest is to be a direct representative of God, configured to God the Father and Son, and attended by the Holy Spirit.

Christ is the Bridegroom and His Church is His Bride, and only a validly ordained man can truly represent Christ the Bridegroom. And its not just any man that can fulfill this role and assume this symbol and relationship. Only those chosen by the God, joined to his Church and ordained through apostolic succession can take up this role.

In the New Testament, we know that Christ is called the Bridegroom for His union with His Church is compared to the union between a man and a woman (Mt 9:15, 25:1ff; Jn 3:29). This same comparison is foreshadowed in the Old Testament (Ps 45ff). Using Byzantine theology we learn that as Jesus is the icon (i.e., image) of God the Father, the priest is the perfect icon (image) of Jesus.

Bottom line is that when a priest is ordained, he is ontologically configured to Jesus. A priest represents the same Jesus Who through His Incarnation became man. Therefore, only a validly ordained man can truly represent Christ the God-man. It is physically impossible for a woman to become a priest as it is physically impossible for a man to become a mother!

The Eucharist is involved as well, making thuis a fundamental core faith issue. In saying, "This is My Body...This is My Blood..." the priest cannot integrally be a woman... a woman is not a credible representative of Adam, the man, the one who finalized original sin and from whose finality the New Adam, as a priest on the Cross, liberated us. He did so according to the order of Melchizedek, the ancient priest (Gen 14:18) who prefigured Jesus offering His Body and Blood under the appearance of bread and wine. This prefiguring indicates that a special resemblance is essential to the sacramental character of the priesthood. The figure, or sign, is not a coating that can be removed and replaced by a woman.

This is not to say women are not holy enogh, for certainly they are. Remember in Catholic Theology, the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers and priests, but the saints. Charity and personal holiness are key essentials for entrance into the kingdom of God. Catholic women such as Eternal Word Television Network founder Mother Angelica, Fatima's Sister Lucia, and the late Mother Teresa exemplified and continue to exemplify this fact quite well, as do a multitude of women who were Saints. The ministerial priesthood is not a prerequisite for entrance into Heaven, and it is not uncommon for special graces that Saints exhibit to occur far outside the priesthood.

It all comes down to Christ's teaching by example, and the apostolic succession and continuity from Jesus and the Apostles to this very day, a two millienia continuity of this holy Catholic fundametnal beleif and core Sacrament to reserve the Priesthood to men as Christ did, not "traditionalism" to deny women status arbitrarily.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 18:19|| 2008-07-21 18:19|| Front Page Top

#16 The primary function for the Priest is to be a direct representative of God, configured to God the Father and Son, and attended by the Holy Spirit.

And I also note the fact that so many have departed so wildly from the above is a source of shame and disgrace to the current Catholic Church, be they the pedophile predators who used the priesthood as a tool to prey on the innocent, or be they that nutbag hate monger racist Obama backer in Chicago.

But these are very notable exceptions to the above - and thank God, they are few and far between, with the vast majority of priests adhering to the description as given.

Plus, it has been said that the floor of hell is paved with skulls of bishops, so the Roman Catholich Church is certainly aware of the costs of deviation from its core.

Also, be sure to NOT confuse this with priestly celibacy. This was imposed oafter sxual scandals and nepotism trheatened the very existence of the Church long ago. Unlike women priests, celibacy in not an unchangeable sacrament, its is a general rule.

For instance, married Anglican priests can convert AND remain married and still be priests in the Roman Catholic Church, so long as the marriage is their one and only, and they agree to "remain chaste within their station" (i.e. if their wife dies before they do, they will be celibate and will not remarry).

That's where the few married priests in the US Roman Catholic Church come from. Also Eastern Orthodox who are allowed to marry prior to ordination can convert to the RCC and still remain married as above.

Personally, I beleive that eventually the RCC will roll back the convention for celibacy adopted long ago. What I've heard is that the Church might allow married "permanent deacons" (who are already validly ordained and under the same vows on chasitity) after 7 years to assume the full priesthood, but limit them to being parish priests, and will not elevate them to the rank of Bishop - that being reserved for those who are married to the Church.

Certainly will that issue will be interesting, and might cut down a lot of the gay/pedophiles being able to operate inside the church.

But as far as ordanation of women?

Its simply not going to happen. There is no theology for it, and plenty against it.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 18:26|| 2008-07-21 18:26|| Front Page Top

#17 What I've heard is that the Church might allow married "permanent deacons" (who are already validly ordained and under the same vows on chasitity) after 7 years to assume the full priesthood, but limit them to being parish priests, and will not elevate them to the rank of Bishop - that being reserved for those who are married to the Church.

Interesting news, OS. Hadn't heard about that scenario, but it sounds kind of similar to what some Eastern Orthodox churches practice (married men can be priests but cannot rise in the hierarchy).

Posted by Swamp Blondie in the Cornfields 2008-07-21 18:55|| 2008-07-21 18:55|| Front Page Top

#18 Swamp Blondie, that's probably where the RCC idea is coming from, the Eastern Orthodox.

It certainly would go a long way toward solving the shortage of parish priests.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 19:46|| 2008-07-21 19:46|| Front Page Top

#19 Wow, OS. Unfortunately I can't do your post justice tonight. My first take from a quick read is that you are still making assumptions as to the will of God. Sure he deliberately chose men for his disciples. But why? Can that question be answered without making assumptions?

However, Jesus came to fulfill the will of the Father, and this certainly did not include given priestly faculties to women, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, His very own mother
Where does it say this in the bible?
I'm certainly not trying to argue with you, you definitely know the Bible better than I. I do want to seperate Catholic dogma and interpretation from the actual content. Anyways,
hopefully tomorrow I'll have more time to read and digest your lengthy commentary. Thanks.

Posted by AllahHateMe 2008-07-21 21:35|| 2008-07-21 21:35|| Front Page Top

#20 The Catholics have their own way and their own traditions. Anyone who doesn't like that can be a non-Catholic any way they choose.

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-07-21 22:11|| 2008-07-21 22:11|| Front Page Top

#21 Did you go to Mass this weekend? I was a lector, and this was the reading (second reading). It seems appropo to the items at hand:

For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
(St Paul's letter to the Romans)

Basically, you need to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you (one of the saints) to the will of God - our minds are not sufficient in many situations and our own wills may guide us to contrary positions. "Let go and let God" per part of the homily (the rest being about the mustard seed, etc).

AHM, read up - if you are a Catholic, every single one of these is laid out in the Catechism, with scriptural references.

By the way, Catholic dogma and interpretation is what preceded and grew with the Bible from the days of the "upper room" onward.

Catholic dogma informed the canonical formation of the Bible in the various Catholic Biblical councils of Bishops between 300-425 AD. The Bible is the Word of God as "infallibly certified" by the Catholic Church in the early centuries of Christianity.

Trying to seperate Church dogma and traditions form the Bible, especially things that go back before the canonization of the New Testament, is nearly impossible and foolish, except if you reject the dogma and catechism and traditions and Sacraments of the Catholci faith - in which case you are not a Catholic, and this is a moot argument.

The apostolic succession and apostolic traditions are what formed the Church and the Bible, and have formed the Church since then - intertwined as God's way to guide the Church and the faithful. The dogma and traditions were directly carried on from Christ via Saint Peter and St Paul and their successors.

So stop trying to use one to refute the other - they come from the same wellspring, especially fundamental sacraments like baptism and the priesthood.

As for making assumptions about the will of God, its is you who is doing so. I am going off the recorded actions of Christ, and their context, and not trying to project some moderist alteration onto them.

I do not claim to know the will of God, only what I have seen and read. The Bible warns against attempts to do otherwise.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your way and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9

Its YOU who are making assumptions about God's will in ordaining women as priests. I am quoting the actions of Christ and two millenia of faith, tradition and scholarship behind it, instead of projecting bad modern mush-headed "feel good" "everyone is equal" pseudo-theology onto them.

Everyone is NOT equal, get that into the worldview. The thing you have confused in terms of "equality" is that God loves and forgives us, and will save us equally. But we are not all equal - each of us is given according to what God's will is for us, assuming we bend to His will. Sometimes its nice, sometimes its hard. But its the narrow gate by which we enter the Kingdom.

Finally I object to you requiring me to "prove" things while you sit back and only question.

That's an old propaganda trick, with you presuming your (false) position is true and pushing the accusation and burden of proof (wrongly) onto the other party.

Sorry, I see through it. And I reject it.

Recall that it is not me challenging you - its YOU bringing your challenge to two milleniia of apostolic succession and truth.

So its up to YOU to first refute Christ's actions and the arguments presented.

How about this: Start with trying to refute the dogma of "in persona Christi" which is fundamental to Catholicism and several Sacraments, including Holy Orders (preisthood), Baptism, and Eucharist. Its also only one of the many theological bases I presented for a male only priesthood.

When you finish with that then proceed to the other parts of the argument.

Again, its up to YOU to first refute Christ's actions and the arguments presented.

When you do that credibly, then come back to and tell where it says to ordain women as priest in word and deed in the New Testament.

Lotsa luck trying to do what hasn't been done in 2 millinea.

If you cannot do so, then you are faced with a dilemma. Either "let go and let God", and have faith in the Catholic Church, or abandon Catholicism because you cannot bend to the things required of faithful Catholics, namely being well catechised (read the catechism), and having faithin God and fiath that He guides His Church, the one, holy,catholic and apostolic Church (remember your creed you say every Sunday in Mass).

Lest you think I came up with all this on my own, I didn't. Its the result of some good teaching in catechetics and bit of basic apologetics form a Capuchin Monk who was one of my best friends on this world (and in the next, God willing).

I'm not all that smart, I just have shoulders of two millenia giants to ride upon.

You might want to consider the following from Proverbs. Sure, its easier said than done, but still a worthwhile activity to attempt.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." (Proverbs 3:5, 6)

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 22:33|| 2008-07-21 22:33|| Front Page Top

#22 TW, thats very true - our belief is that Protestants have each taken the fragments of Christianity they liked when they split from the mother Church. We, on the other hand, still have the whole of the faith.

Others disagree with that, but that's stuff for theology school.

Ecuminism is one of the bigger objectives of the modern Catholic Church. That means the Protestants are not condemned, as long as the basic Christian precepts are met.

Its not that high a wall for most denominations: the birth life death resurrection and divinity of Jesus, the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinity), baptism, profession of faith, regular prayer, regular worship of God, personal confession of sins and reconciliation with God, and over-all a willing submission to the will of God.

Those are pretty much the core of any truly Christian denomination, and they do share that with Catholicism.

The other differences and errors (such as sola scriptura, and sola fide) are what the doctrine of purgatory solves.

(I'll not get into the relationship with non-Christian religons, and those who never got the chance to "hear the Gospel" - those are intricate theological arguments and not really germane to this topic)

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 22:46|| 2008-07-21 22:46|| Front Page Top

#23 ... and thus ends the Catholic Theology 101 class at Rantburg U evening college.

Sorry for being so lengthy. My faith a subject I get a bit passionate about.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-07-21 23:01|| 2008-07-21 23:01|| Front Page Top

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