Article

2008-08-24 Iraq

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Fred 2008-08-24 00:00|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top
File under: Islamic State of Iraq

#1 As a former car salesman, I can personally assure that this could very well have nothing to do with terrorism.

Lord knows, I've earned a bombing or two in my career...

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 01:11|| 2008-08-24 01:11|| Front Page Top

#2 a Pinto?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-08-24 01:39|| 2008-08-24 01:39|| Front Page Top

#3 No pintos. I 13 pounded (1 pound = $1,000.00 front end profit) this old couple on a Kia one time. To top it off, the finance office got them for another 5 pounds on the back end. Even scooped the rebate. (Gotta put it in so it can be taken out. IE add the amount of the rebate to MSRP, figure the tax on the inflated sell price, then take the rebate out so the sell price, after rebate is actually above MSRP) After all the extras they bought, the poor folks bought a 22k car with a $3,000 rebate for over 40 grand.

I'm going to hell.

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 02:18|| 2008-08-24 02:18|| Front Page Top

#4 I'm going to hell

Yep. You sure are, bastard.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-24 06:55|| 2008-08-24 06:55|| Front Page Top

Redacted by moderator. Comments may be redacted for trolling, violation of standards of good manners, or plain stupidity. Please correct the condition that applies and try again. Contents may be viewed in the sinktrap. Further violations may result in banning.

Posted by Lampedusa Glack5566 2008-08-24 10:43|| 2008-08-24 10:43|| Front Page Top

#6 No pintos. I 13 pounded (1 pound = $1,000.00 front end profit) this old couple on a Kia one time. To top it off, the finance office got them for another 5 pounds on the back end. Even scooped the rebate. (Gotta put it in so it can be taken out. IE add the amount of the rebate to MSRP, figure the tax on the inflated sell price, then take the rebate out so the sell price, after rebate is actually above MSRP) After all the extras they bought, the poor folks bought a 22k car with a $3,000 rebate for over 40 grand.

Let it go Mike, we're here for you! Ditch it all, and let it ride. Does you like to HEAL! BROTHER! srsly, we've all done rong. Let it go and give your mind a break.

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-24 11:55|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-24 11:55|| Front Page Top

#7 I note the above 2 posters are yellow bellied bastards wanking in they mommas basement who never owned a car and likely couldn't poor piss from a shoe if the instrution were lasered on they eyelid. They is if they momma loaned them her combat boots.

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-24 11:58|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-24 11:58|| Front Page Top

#8 Anytime the two socialist commentors above are in the market for a new car, come see me, I'll give you a great deal. ;)

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 12:35|| 2008-08-24 12:35|| Front Page Top

#9 And dat goes double for your trains Mussolini.

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-24 13:00|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-24 13:00|| Front Page Top

#10 So you two stupid bastards see nothing wrong with having someone gouged for twice the price of the product (a commonly available one) and justify it as capitalism? A real capitalist holds you both in contempt, knowing that its scum like you who bring down the wrath of the real socialists--the government regulators--on honest capitalists.

Hell, even the contract lawyers (at least the good ones) know that writing a contract that gouges one party like that is bound, sooner or later, to blow up in your face when the mark discovers what has happened.

People like Mike N are the reason why most people absolutely hate buying a car, and why more and more dealers are going to fixed price/no haggle systems. A situation which only hurts car salesmen, BTW. The folks at TTAC are all over jerks like Mike N., and for good reason.

As for half-empty, its obvious his nym refers to the space between his ears. Only a damned fool kills the goose that lays the golden eggs, and the double-damned fools stand there and cheer them on to do it.

In the long run, character is destiny. People who act in the dishonest manner you advocate invariably suffer the consequences at some point. The mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding small.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-24 15:33|| 2008-08-24 15:33|| Front Page Top

#11 So you two stupid bastards see nothing wrong with having someone gouged for twice the price of the product

Lemme keep it simple for you Pilgrim.

No.

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-24 16:09|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-24 16:09|| Front Page Top

#12 I'll let you in on a little secret. The more people pay for a car, the happier they are. I know it makes no sense at all, but its an invariable truth. Dealers keep log books of all the days car deals. If you look at the book and see a bunch of car deals with good profit, you know - without exception - that they had a lot of hapy customers that day. The opposite is also true. If you see a bunch of bleeders, you know they had to grind on a bunch of people and that those customers arwent very happy. Bottom line is, the more money made on a car, the happier the customer was when they left. Swear to God.

Besides, they bought more than the car. They bought tint, backup alarm, pinstripe, extended warranty, gap insurance (which is wise when you owe that much more than the car is worth ;) and some other stuff. Also, for very deal like this I did, I did two bleeders for people with real troubles. So get off my ass. If God is angry with me for making lots of money on a car, do you think he's happy with me for the time I took a 2 grand bleeder and reached into my own pocket and broke off $500.00 for a down payment so a single mother of 3 can have a 5 star safety rated vehicle to drive her kids around in for a payment she can actually afford?

I'm guessing you're one of the people that badmouths dealers yet have almost no experience doing business with them. That's usually because a person doent know how not to get taken for a ride.

Now because I dislike car dealers even more than I dislike you :), I'm gonna spill the beans on how to buy a car. Once you figure out which vehicle you want, spend 3 more minutes online to find out what you should be paying. Now, the most important part at this point is, when you go to the dealer, DO NOT purchase any other vehicle other than what you did your homework on. At least 20 percent of you will put yourselves on the wrong car and the salesman has seen so many customers he will likely know you are on the wrong car within a few minutes. At which point they'll show you the right vehicle and even if you love it, DO NOT buy it until you go back home and figure out what to pay for it.

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 16:18|| 2008-08-24 16:18|| Front Page Top

#13 Methinks Mussolini is afraid of a car salesman taking his head off.

TIP: If the salesman walks out to greet you with a basket in his hand, run.

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 16:21|| 2008-08-24 16:21|| Front Page Top

#14 Mike, I'm shocked! $22K for a KIA?

Posted by ed 2008-08-24 16:24|| 2008-08-24 16:24|| Front Page Top

#15 I can has Pinto?

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-24 16:24|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-24 16:24|| Front Page Top

#16 I sold cars while I was in grad school. The venue was a high-end import dealership in Dallas; Maserati, Jaguar, Rover, etc, so we only gouged lawyers, franchise steak-house proprietors, mobile home tycoons, and other richly deserving types.

My Brit accent was a godsend when trying to sell some miserable BL product to a pretentious trustafarian music major from UNT. It helped that they couldn' tell my working class north country brogue from Oxonian RP, and apparently didn't care.
(I drive a Chevy pickup, btw. Take that, teasippers)

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2008-08-24 16:25|| 2008-08-24 16:25|| Front Page Top

#17 Edmunds.com is very helpful. You can add/delete the features you want and watch the price go up and down (the MSRP), but at the end, you can see what the dealer invoice would be AND what others in your vicinity are actually paying for that vehicle. I bought my F150 that way, was very specific on what I wanted, and actually got one in the storage lot fresh off the freight train (6 miles on the Odometer) - it hadn't even got the cardboard off the dash or plastic off the seats- and I paid exactly what I thought I should've

Like buying a house or any other large expenditure, do your research, don't expect others to do it for you

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-08-24 16:28|| 2008-08-24 16:28|| Front Page Top

#18 I can has Pinto?

Sure.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-24 16:52|| 2008-08-24 16:52|| Front Page Top

#19 Looks a little 'rabian.

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-24 17:23|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-24 17:23|| Front Page Top

#20 TIP: If the salesman walks out to greet you with a basket in his hand, run

Mr. Mike, what if the basket is a Cornucopia?

>:)

Posted by Red Dawg">Red Dawg 2008-08-24 17:37|| 2008-08-24 17:37|| Front Page Top

#21 19 - Could be ... he's listed as an American Show Pony and they do have that flashy action, but his farm does breed half-Arabians.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-24 17:44|| 2008-08-24 17:44|| Front Page Top

#22 I'm with half. That things got the goofy neck and squished face of an Arabian.

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 17:56|| 2008-08-24 17:56|| Front Page Top

#23 I have a weakness for Arabia hossies. I will say no more.

LOL Gladys!

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-24 18:54|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-24 18:54|| Front Page Top

#24 There's an even better way: go to Consumer Reports Online, pay the $10 they ask for the report on the specific model you want, with the specific options you want, go in there armed with that information, and then expect to get 10% off that cost, maybe more if they have the car on the lot and don't have to send off for it. Worked great with my last Lexus, particularly with the fact that they don't do much in the way of single options (as opposed to BMW, say). You pretty much only have two or three option packages to choose from.

As for half-empty, let me tell you something, pilgrim. Every business is, at bottom, a word of mouth affair. That's why they spend so much in advertising. Screwing a customer over is a certain way to insure a) no return business from that customer, and b) a hell of a lot of bad publicity from that person telling everyone he knows about the bad service/treatment they received at XX dealership. ONE pissed-off former customer with a big mouth can negate a hell of a lot of your advertising money expenditure. If you've any small business experience you should know that already.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-24 19:17|| 2008-08-24 19:17|| Front Page Top

#25 When we bought our minivan a couple years back I really wanted the Toyota Sienna. Its interior space was ideal for dog equipment etc. and at the time they were the only model offering run flat tires.

I met with the salesguy, we id'd one in the regional inventory system and I was assured I'd have it in 2 days. Four days later the salesguy called to say the only thing he would offer me was an AWD version loaded with DVD player etc. My dogs are pampered but they don't watch DVDs on the road and the AWD had much worse gas mileage & higher repair costs. So I turned him down and bought a Chrysler for cash. Cost me $10k less.

A couple weeks later the Toyota sales manager called to try to talk me into taking that original vehicle. I let him know that his salesguy's games sent me elsewhere despite the fact that that would have been my 4th Toyota in a row. The manager had the nerve to tell me I screwed up by not calling him personally to negotiate. I told him to train his staff better and politely suggested he take his BS elsewhere.

I've let a lot of people know about that experience.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-24 19:24|| 2008-08-24 19:24|| Front Page Top

#26 Lotp, I once read a very smart man referring to customers. He said they were like a covey of quail. You could only harvest a reasonable percentage every year if you wanted to continue to have good quail hunting. Take too high a percentage in one season and it will be your last good season for a long time.

It's the conservation/renewable resource vs. mining scenario. If you screw a customer over, you'd better make it a damned big score because it's going to cost you business and will keep doing so for a long time.

Smart business owners know that if you treat your customers right, you'll have loyal customers, and their return business may be what keeps your business afloat in tough times when others are going under.

The idea that these two guys have, that customers are just sheep to be shorn, flat doesn't work in the information age. People have access to too much knowledge that was formerly reserved to specialists, and there are too many forums for them to widely broadcast their bad experiences to large numbers of interested people.

Not only are these two immoral in taking the stance that taking advantage of people's ignorance is gleefully acceptable, they're guilty of a worse crime: extreme stupidity. Dishonest behavior like that espoused by Mike N and half-empty will almost invariably come back in a very tangible way to haunt those who practice it.

We won't even bring up what the certain knowledge that one is dishonest does to one's psyche and outlook on life...

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-24 20:13|| 2008-08-24 20:13|| Front Page Top

#27 dishonest, as in your name is Jolutch Mussolini7800 ?
If you want the high ground, take it and stake it. Pick a nym, stay with it, and suffer the questions over prior statements. I've done that since '01, Mike N (regardless of your current topic opinion) has done the same since he landed here. He has my respect for that. You don't. Man up and make yourself vulnerable/accountable as well. Then I'll consider your criticism as honorable.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-08-24 20:24|| 2008-08-24 20:24|| Front Page Top

#28 Frank, every time I use CC cleaner it changes the nym on my computer. Same thing with my work computer. I just got tired of changing it back. The prior nym before the last CC operation was Thaimble something-or-other.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-24 20:49|| 2008-08-24 20:49|| Front Page Top

#29 Lotp, it wasn't the salesman playing those games, it was his manager telling him to do so. The salesman don't do the locates, nor have ultimate authority over price. His manager tried to pull that switch I was talking about. I can promise that salesman was as mad about that incident as were.

And Muss, despite you're whining and your firm grasp of the obvius wrt angry customers, people indeed are sheep. The vast majority have no inclination at all to lead. Just like any other animal that runs in a herd or a pack.

I would like you to reread my above post regarding amount paid relating to customer satisfaction. If you don't believe me, ask some people you know that are very happy with their purchase. I bet they paid too much.

And your 10 percent below invoice number came out of your ass. Most dealers aren't going to go much below invoice minus holdback unless there's good stairstep (so much money per car, with more cars being worth more money per unit) money coming from the manufacturer.

Go try to get yourself a new Civic for ten percent under invoice. Or almost any little gas-saver right now. Or better yet, a Prius, smartguy.

Posted by Mike N. The Car Salesman. 2008-08-24 21:00|| 2008-08-24 21:00|| Front Page Top

#30 JM7800: bogus alibi- pick a nym, stick to it and if you have to refresh your nym via cookies, do it . Don't whine. I've only been doing it here for 10 years, and I'm an idiot, via mutual acclaim, you, as a smart guy, oughta be able to handle this...

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-08-24 21:05|| 2008-08-24 21:05|| Front Page Top

#31 And another for you, smartguy, a car dealer makes maybe 2-3 grand per car. If they can make 18 grand in one crack, they made more money that if the customer buys 10 cars from them over the next 33 years. (Average trade cycle is 3.3 years)

How many people buy 10 cars from the same dealership?

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 21:06|| 2008-08-24 21:06|| Front Page Top

#32 sorry, 7 years. Got caught up in explaining what "10 inches" was to my ...friend. Sometimes exaggeration is necessary...in this blog, 7 years is accurate. Search and ye shall verify

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-08-24 21:11|| 2008-08-24 21:11|| Front Page Top

#33 I would like you to reread my above post regarding amount paid relating to customer satisfaction.

That's a correlation discussed in every decent MBA program. There are a lot of case studies of products and companies that became more successful by setting high prices or raising them.

That said, the key to longterm success in such markets is performance. Mariott sets high prices but delivers consistent quality and a trained staff even (as I discovered earlier this summer) in places like Tegucigalpa. IBM set high prices for their mainframes but delivered well tested products backed by deep technical support. BMW offers zero-cost maintenance.

When the performance isn't there (i.e. when people pay more than the product's quality and function are worth in comparison to similar goods) then people will indeed grow disillusioned. What lets car sellers get away with this practice is that individual consumers purchase cars only occasionally and face an information assymetry - they don't know a lot about costs and profit margins etc.

OTOH, the internet has begun to change that disparity. The result is a proliferation of information that reduces the salesman's advantage if consumers learn about the info and take the time to research it. At which point cars become a lot more like commodity goods.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-24 21:12|| 2008-08-24 21:12|| Front Page Top

#34 FrankG, if you don't like what I've written, don't read it. Even a self-proclaimed idiot should be able to figure that out. Your opinion of my credibility doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

Mike N--you're right about the dealer's room to maneuver on lower-end models; they don't have much of a margin. They've got a lot more on high-end Lexus models, and that's what I was buying.

As for how many people buy ten cars from the same dealership, you're also right in that there won't be many. The rub is how many people DON'T buy cars from a dealership when they hear from their friends/neighbors/acquaintances that XX dealership is a bunch of ripoff artists who will rob you blind if given a chance. As I said before, all businesses at bottom are word-of-mouth operations. When that goes south, so does the business.

It's not often that a car dealer has a captive audience, and it's far less common than it used to be. If one dealer gets a rep as being dishonest, there are always plenty of others available, not to mention the online car brokerages, who will also be happy to have the business. Screw customers over and the word WILL get out, and it WILL hurt the business. Both individuals and businesses who are dishonest in their business dealings eventually pay the price for it, and it's usually a heavy one.

Robert Farago's blog, TheTruthAboutCars.com, is a good place to pick up information about most aspects of the current state of the car industry, and those folks come down really hard on companies and dealerships that use dishonest sales tactics. Your story of screwing that old couple over for 22 grand would make a great example for them.

It was wrong to do that and your example of helping out a single mother doesn't make up for it. What I think doesn't matter though; you're the one who has to live with what you did, and if it didn't bother you that you had done such a thing, you'd have forgotten it by now. You're the one who said you were going to Hell; you put the weight on your own back through your own actions. Your choice--and your consequences.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-24 21:39|| 2008-08-24 21:39|| Front Page Top

#35 Oh, I'll read it, critique it, and you should do the same - that's the beauty of civil well-reasoned discourse? I was saying that you should have the courage of your convictions by picking an identifiable nym and staying with it. Is that too hard for you? I've been Frank G (for good and bad.....) since 9-11-01. Is that too hard for you? If so, why?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-08-24 21:44|| 2008-08-24 21:44|| Front Page Top

#36 Lotp, yes, the internet is a great tool for consumers. That's why I would recommend that every person start their car shopping on the net. There is a drawback however. Dealers have to make their money somewhere. With the variable (sales and finance) side of the business being less profitable, they have to make more in the fixed (parts and service) side of the operation. The widespread use of the internet is responsible for part of the increase in labor costs over the last ten years. Making warranty repairs more expensive for the manufacturer, causing them to have to sell their product for more money. The net can help you get a great price, but its a great price on a product that costs more than it othwrwise would have.

One more tip, don't bother asking a dealer for their fleet department. They want to make money also and you can often pay more than you would have had to because you have confidence that 'you're getting the fleet deal'. Same goes for the internet department. More often than not, you're just talking to a salesman who is letting you think they're in the fleet or internet department. Heck, most dealers don't even have an actual fleet department. Unless its a dealer that sells work trucks, there's a zero percent chance of them having an actual fleet department, and even then, they're only dealing with businesses. Not people like you or me.

And mussy, I don't have trouble 'living' with any of it. You've got the wrong guy. I slept fine that night.

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 21:58|| 2008-08-24 21:58|| Front Page Top

#37 Mussy, word of mouth is overrated on lower lines of cars. Sure, on a status symbol like a Lexus, people say "oooo... I want one of those! And they even have a Starbucks and salon in the dealership?!" Next thing ya know, the neighbors wife is in getting a latte and a mud bath while her new RX300 is getting detailed. Only hers has DVD and Navi because hers has to be better than Janets.

While even Hyundai has very strong repeat business, on a model line like Kia, its far different. 5-10 percent of customers will send another customer and only slightly more will ever purchase another one.

When its a Benz, ya wanna keep them coming back and get their friends. When it comes to Kias, crack'em wide open.

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 22:09|| 2008-08-24 22:09|| Front Page Top

#38 And I think you misunderstand me. I don't remember it because I feel guilty about it. I remember it because its a trophy. Like a hunter, only I can't legally mount the head of my prey on the wall.

(I had my washout slip from that deal framed instead)

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 22:14|| 2008-08-24 22:14|| Front Page Top

#39 And I think you misunderstand me. I don't remember it because I feel guilty about it. I remember it because its a trophy. Like a hunter, only I can't legally mount the head of my prey on the wall.

(I had my washout slip from that deal framed instead)

Posted by Mike N. 2008-08-24 22:14|| 2008-08-24 22:14|| Front Page Top

#40 Mike N. Man, people hate car salesman. For good reason. Anybody got a drink for me?

Mike N. I don't remember it because I feel guilty about it. I remember it because its a trophy. Like a hunter, only I can't legally mount the head of my prey on the wall.

Yeah, whatever.

When its a Benz, ya wanna keep them coming back and get their friends. When it comes to Kias, crack'em wide open.

Thanks for providing yet more ammunition to the idiots on the left who are certain all "Rethuglicans" take great joy in screwing the poor, while obsequiously toadying to the rich. Heck, the KosKiddies could stretch this out a long ways...thieving, predatory car salesman screws minorities, cheats poor women...yeah, it's got legs. Definitely some distance there. Nice work.

FrankG: Is that too hard for you? If so, why?

Simple answer: I choose not to do so. If you don't like it, well, I'm sorry, sir, but you've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. As I said before, your opinion of my credibility matters to me not in the slightest.

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-08-24 22:52|| 2008-08-24 22:52|| Front Page Top

#41 There are indeed plenty of people who are as proud they spent a lot of money for a car (or a house, a bottle of wine they can't appreciate properly...) as others are when they find a good deal. Both are some sort of competition, as if by spending more/less they are somehow better. When they were in school they probably compared report cards or how much pocket money Daddy gave them. I've never understood either drive, but find it useful to listen gravely and admiringly to those who need to share, while waiting four minutes for the tea to finish steeping so I can pour and change the subject.

I think it's just done, my dears. Would you like milk and sugar, or lemon?

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-08-24 23:19|| 2008-08-24 23:19|| Front Page Top

#42 And this whole thread started from a car lot blast in Kirkuk. It is *almost* a RB classic, LOL!

Posted by Alaska Paul 2008-08-24 23:48|| 2008-08-24 23:48|| Front Page Top

23:58 trailing wife
23:48 Alaska Paul
23:39 trailing wife
23:33 trailing wife
23:27 trailing wife
23:23 trailing wife
23:22 trailing wife
23:22 JosephMendiola
23:21 christian
23:19 trailing wife
23:10 JosephMendiola
23:05 JosephMendiola
22:59 JosephMendiola
22:52 Jolutch Mussolini7800
22:33 Gabby Cussworth
22:17 CrazyFool
22:16 trailing wife
22:14 Mike N.
22:14 Mike N.
22:11 Besoeker
22:09 Mike N.
21:58 Mike N.
21:57 Anguper Hupomosing9418
21:52 Beldar Unasing7454