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2010-03-19 Home Front: WoT

US Army replaces bayonet with mini shotgun

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Posted by gromky 2010-03-19 08:55|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 There is always a desire to "fruit salad" infantry weapons, but every decision, one way or another, has both tactical opportunity cost, maintenance and resupply issues.

Posted by Anonymoose 2010-03-19 10:16|| 2010-03-19 10:16|| Front Page Top

#2 I wasn't really in love with Bayonets when I was in the army.

First they weren't long enough, compared to that old Soviet pig sticker we were using pocket knives. I actually would prefer that if we issued bayonets to go back to the WWI model we used back in the day, that 12 inch bladed thing they gave us in the 60's and 70's was useless except for opening cans of C rats.

Posted by James Carville 2010-03-19 10:46|| 2010-03-19 10:46|| Front Page Top

#3 If you're close enough to use a bayonet, you're too close.

Posted by Glenmore 2010-03-19 11:53|| 2010-03-19 11:53|| Front Page Top

#4 A bayonet simply turns a rifle into a spear. Better off having a purpose-built spear than trying to make a rifle into one.

Posted by crosspatch 2010-03-19 12:04|| 2010-03-19 12:04|| Front Page Top

#5 In the action portrayed in "We were soldiers" what carried the day was a bayonet attack.

In Stalingrad, the Russians forced once and again the Germans in fights where even SMGs were too slow so blades were the weapon of choice a kind of combat in which the Germans weren't good at and disliked.

I think in addition to the surprise effect that what was in play was the fear factor as the perspective of having a bayonet stuck in ne's guts impresses more than being fired from a distance by a guy who could miss and where you can take cover

Also this thingy carries a five round magazine. The bayonet carried an unlimited one.

Posted by JFM 2010-03-19 12:08|| 2010-03-19 12:08|| Front Page Top

#6 The bayonet worked pretty well for a foxhole hunkering Bill Faulkner in 'Flags of our Fathers.' Crawling Japanese infantryman falling into Bill's foxhole... not so much. Bill was still doing farm land survey work in the Decatur, Illinois area until a year ago when he suffered a stroke while having lunch in a local cafe. He maintains a firm handshake, enjoys watching sports and NASCAR on the teevee and smiling politely at pretty womyn. Typical Marine I'd say.

Posted by Besoeker 2010-03-19 12:22|| 2010-03-19 12:22|| Front Page Top

#7 If I recall, a British soldier just received an award for defending himself with his last remaining weapon - the bayonet.

I have not soldiered. I have played paintball, one vivid experience was a gun malfunction in one of those close quarter setups; my only recourse was to empty my few remaining paintballs and try to slap them on my opponent, and that is some stupid game not real life. But yes, in that stupid game I found myself too close.

Nothing says crowd control like a bunch of soldiers lined up bayonets fixed. There is something strongly symbolic about a soldier with rifle and bayonet fixed which is impossible to dismiss, no matter what culture - it translates purely into any language.

Posted by swksvolFF 2010-03-19 12:45|| 2010-03-19 12:45|| Front Page Top

#8 I don't know about the American design but the ones in French Army could be used as one foot long (without handle) daggers from those situations where you need to kill an enemy without being heard from two miles around.

Posted by JFM 2010-03-19 13:01|| 2010-03-19 13:01|| Front Page Top

#9 doesn't putting the bayonets on throw the accuracy off too?

Posted by chris 2010-03-19 13:24|| 2010-03-19 13:24|| Front Page Top

#10 Bayonet's for stabbin'. "They don't like it in 'em!" You don't shoot with it on.

Posted by gromky 2010-03-19 13:39|| 2010-03-19 13:39|| Front Page Top

#11 During my brief stint of ROTC, we got bayonet training. Of all the things we did in ROTC, it is one of the things I remember most vividly as there was a chill at just watching a fellow cadet screaming as they dismembered a stray dummy with a bayonet on the end of an M-16A1. We also agreed that our slightly chubby black female cadet was the scariest of everyone. I don't know where that rage came from, but you didn't want to be on the receiving end of it.

Bayonets have their place and if you aren't going to issue them, then issue the troops a damn short sword. They need a weapon that doesn't use ammo, instills fear and is intended for last resort and close combat.

Posted by Silentbrick 2010-03-19 14:05|| 2010-03-19 14:05|| Front Page Top

#12 If I recall correctly, the Black Watch used a bayonet charge in Basra to discourage the Madhi Army. So people are puting a fixed bayonet to use in the 21st century.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al 2010-03-19 14:12|| 2010-03-19 14:12|| Front Page Top

#13 Bayonets have no moving parts to wear or break.

Posted by Parabellum 2010-03-19 15:02|| http://sidemeat.wordpress.com/ 2010-03-19 15:02|| Front Page Top

#14 No batteries to hump.

Posted by Besoeker 2010-03-19 15:07|| 2010-03-19 15:07|| Front Page Top

#15 Imagine opening a can of beens with shotgun.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2010-03-19 15:16|| 2010-03-19 15:16|| Front Page Top

#16 Bayonets do not misfire, make loud noises, or run out of ammo, and only require a warrior spirit for use.

We run short of that, then we are in trouble in a far deeper way.

THe rarity of use is a good thing, but honestly, nothgin can replace them in the last resort. And combat has an annoying way of bringing in the last resort more often than anyone not carrying a rifle daily imagines.

Posted by OldSpook 2010-03-19 15:37|| 2010-03-19 15:37|| Front Page Top

#17 Bayonet instills fear in hearts. However, for home defense, I'll take the shotgun although it makes a mess of things.

Posted by JohnQC 2010-03-19 15:54|| 2010-03-19 15:54|| Front Page Top

#18 You're in close quarters melee in a trench/building/the dark, and you have no bayonet. You know the enemy are upon you, but you also know your pals are in there with you you. You have a shotgun, the enemy have bayonets. Who has the advantage? If you let off your shotgun in the confusion you're almost as likely to hit your own men as the enemy, so you're thiking twice. If you hesitate to make sure you've got a clean shot, you're more likely to get steel between the ribs.

And without a bayonet, you still need to carry a similar blade if you want the ability to kill silently, as others have stated above.

It's a mistake to think that a secondary firearm can replace a blade.

Posted by Bulldog 2010-03-19 16:11|| 2010-03-19 16:11|| Front Page Top

#19 Perhaps the "old NCOs" will continue bayonet training in the field at the squad level.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2010-03-19 16:13|| 2010-03-19 16:13|| Front Page Top

#20 First off, the Army is NOT getting rid of bayonets, it is getting rid of bayonet training. I read the original article and bayonets will still be issued, the M26 is simply another accessory for the M4. The trend away from fixing bayonets and charging is several decades old, and most bayonets are simply field knives nowadays.
Having carried the M16 while in the Army, I would be very happy with a 5 shot under barrel shotgun added on : a load of buckshot at close range to the chest will discourage someone while you change magazines on the rifle.
Also with the bayonet still being issued, if it comes to it, you can still fix bayonets and fight with it.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2010-03-19 16:13|| 2010-03-19 16:13|| Front Page Top

#21 Were I do design a 12 man infantry squad from the ground up, from most potent weapons on down are the
12) the radioman.
11) and 10) two guys with a Denel NTW-20 cannon-rifle (20mm) and ammo, with the ammo man carrying a light rifle as well.
9) and 8) M249 SAW and ammo, with the ammo man carrying a light rifle as well.
7) and 6) Carry Mossberg mil-shotguns and ammo.
5) Sniper with .303
4) through 1) Riflemen and grenadiers.

Posted by Anonymoose 2010-03-19 16:31|| 2010-03-19 16:31|| Front Page Top

#22 1st cavalry master sargeant along side Radio Operator in Fox Hole. Middle of the night. South Pacific Island teaming with Imperial Japanese Army. Rules of engagement, any movement on the ground above the foxholes, kill it. But as shoots ring out missing the Jap making a run to the foxhole containing the radio operating Master sergeant (my father) see the sikhoute of the Jap diving into the fox hole and thrusts the bayonnet into the ammunition depleted Jap who only has a knife left on him, and because the bayonette rifle could not knife the Master Sergeant and radio operator. VERY true story.

Posted by Elmaiger Hatfield7630 2010-03-19 17:23|| 2010-03-19 17:23|| Front Page Top

#23 Correction-because of the bayonette rifle, the Japanese soldier could not knife the Master Sergeant and radio operato.

Bottom Line - If one of you are out of ammo (including shootgun shells) and you think you can force a knife fight with your opponent in a life or death battle situation, the bayonete wins every time.

Davey Crocket found that out the hard way at the fall of the Alamo...

Posted by Elmaiger Hatfield7630 2010-03-19 17:34|| 2010-03-19 17:34|| Front Page Top

#24 Even a bad spear is better than a plastic club.

Posted by mojo 2010-03-19 17:43|| 2010-03-19 17:43|| Front Page Top

#25 I wasn't saying do away with, but I guess if you're close enough too use the bayonet aim isn't all that much a priority. My guess would be it would come in real handy in house too house fighting as would the shotgun.

Posted by chris 2010-03-19 18:20|| 2010-03-19 18:20|| Front Page Top

#26 But the point is that the Army is NOT getting rid of the bayonet itself, simply the bayonet training. The bayonet remains an issue item, but for enhancing the individual infantry, the M26 is a great add-on. Bayonet training in the US Army was designed to teach you how to fight someone else with a fixed bayonet on a rifle, bayonet against bayonet. I was run through it in the 1970s and it was worthless for infantry use since modern assault rifles have the wrong design to be a good bayonet fighting rifle. It is only of use as the last ditch "scare the enemy and scatter them" approach, if bayonets are used on a trained enemy with good fire discipline, it is just a fancy banzai charge by you.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2010-03-19 19:01|| 2010-03-19 19:01|| Front Page Top

#27 it would seem that in urban settings (as we so often seem to fight now) a shotgun would make much more sense for armament, ease of use/movement. Try blowing a door open with a bayonet. I do like the scene in "We were soldiers" when they blade up. Now I'll have to watch the DVD again

Posted by Frank G 2010-03-19 19:09|| 2010-03-19 19:09|| Front Page Top

#28 IOW, the Obama budget is making America so broke the DOD has to cut back on individual or physical skills training in favor of technology.

Posted by Butch Grunter9792 2010-03-19 19:32|| 2010-03-19 19:32|| Front Page Top

#29 Better to have one, and not need it, than to need one, and not have it.

Posted by Bunyip 2010-03-19 20:54|| 2010-03-19 20:54|| Front Page Top

#30 Iff MAHA-RUSHIAN "HISTOIRE" is any measure, the BAYONET DRILL, ETC. will be back before long.

The professional or formal education of a Male Soldier-Warrior includes LEARNING TO SURVIVE, WAGE COMBAT OR WAR WIDOUT HIS WEAPONS. No World Army-Society in antiquity has won a war ponce begun wid Warriors whose first resort is SURRENDER, ESCAPE,andor otherwise WAGING NON-COMBAT/WAR.

Lest we fergit, "MASH" TV Show > EVEN PRO-PEACE, SUPER-RATIONAL, SUPER-INTELLECTUAL, SUPER DUPER SUPER LIB/LEFTY "CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG" CAPT. HAWKEYE PIERCE QUICKLY CAVED IN TO THE DEMANDS OF US, ALLIED, OR COMMIE ENEMY SOLDIER(S) ARMED WID GUNS.

Posted by JosephMendiola 2010-03-19 21:36|| 2010-03-19 21:36|| Front Page Top

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