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2010-06-30 Olde Tyme Religion

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Posted by ed 2010-06-30 00:15|| || Front Page|| [8 views ] Top

#1 And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom was darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works.

Posted by newc 2010-06-30 01:23|| 2010-06-30 01:23|| Front Page Top

Posted by gorb 2010-06-30 02:45|| 2010-06-30 02:45|| Front Page Top

#3 the image reminded me of a conversation I had once with an ethnic Pakistani

EPakistani- So what do you think of the way the Guards flushed the Koran

Myself - No much. In fact, it is physically impossible to flush a Koren. It simply can't be done.

EP- Hmmm. I accept your analysis. However, there must be some reason for the accusation.

Myself - Well there is. The simple fact is that lying is part of the war for our enemies.

EP - What.

Myself - Yes. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that part of the training of Al Qeuda forces is what to say to the enemy and this may be part of it.

EP - ???

Posted by lord garth 2010-06-30 09:29|| 2010-06-30 09:29|| Front Page Top

#4 EP - ???

Cognitive dissonance is such a useful ability. As the elect of God, the Muslims must by definition partake of all noble qualities, and none of the ignoble ones. Lying is ignoble, therefore Muslims cannot possible lie. Q.E.D. Likewise Muslims do not kill other Muslims, and all claims to the contrary by unbelievers shows only how mislead and evil they are.

Posted by trailing wife 2010-06-30 13:39|| 2010-06-30 13:39|| Front Page Top

#5 TW,

I think you are correct. As I understand it many of the most influential ex-Muslims (e.g., Ali Sina, Mohammad Khan, Abdul Kassam, Nonie Darwish) experienced something of a cognitive dissonance phase, typically finding a surrah or two (or three or 20) which contradicted something they had been taught.

Also, the ethnic Pakistani (EP) reported this conversation to some of his learned friends who told him that Mohammad once said "war is deceipt" and his friends got ticked at him for having an infidel teach him what he should have known. I don't know what happened to him after that.

Posted by lord garth 2010-06-30 14:09|| 2010-06-30 14:09|| Front Page Top

#6 Wearing gloves actually makes a great deal of sense. You always want to avoid reverse contamination.

Posted by Total War 2010-06-30 15:09|| 2010-06-30 15:09|| Front Page Top

#7 I don't know what happened to him after that. Do you think they beheaded him?

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2010-06-30 15:47|| 2010-06-30 15:47|| Front Page Top

#8 Wearing gloves actually makes a great deal of sense. You always want to avoid reverse contamination.

Pigskin gloves. Before touching a Koran, you dip them first into pork lard and then crushed pork rind.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2010-06-30 16:01|| 2010-06-30 16:01|| Front Page Top

#9 This is a very timely article given a recent conversation I had with one of my IT employees. As a matter of background, he comes from a relatively well-to-do muslim-Algerian family but he grew up here in the US. He is a very nice fellow, smart, well-educated and very westernized (he drinks alcohol, he smokes, he likes spending QT with the opposite sex, etc.) and considers himself a muslim of the moderate kind. (God knows we need more of those around.) While he clearly sympathizes with oppressed peoples around the world, especially any fellow muslims (such as the Palestinian people, for example), he condemns all violence, including any violence carried out in the name of Islam. He believes that muslim extremists who engage in any type of violent activity for their own personal or political reasons have distorted certain teachings in the Koran in much the same way Christian extremists who engage in any type of violent activity for their own personal or political reasons have distorted certain teachings in the Bible.

A few weeks ago we were enjoying a post-work conversation over a few beers and the recent Gaza blockade fiasco I know you are all very familiar with came up in conversation. We were able to have a very civil and respectful exchange in which I more or less expressed my support for Israel and he more or less expressed his support for the Palestinian people. (Note: it's never the Palestinian powers-that-be that are held responsible by Palestinian supporters, it's always the Palestinian "people" that they support; while conversely, the Israeli powers-that-be are always to be held accountable for their actions; but I digress.) I finally wrapped up the conversation by saying I would be more inclined to empathize with the Palestinian people and those who support them (i.e. the general muslim community for starters) if I felt they were openly and vocally against terrorism and muslim extremism. He said there was a vocal community of moderate muslims who spoke out against terrorism and muslim extremism in many forms. I replied that if thats the case, Im glad to hear it, but its not something I hear very much about and thats not because Im not looking for it; on the contrary, I said, I normally see the opposite wherein muslims are complaining about being persecuted for their beliefs and demonize or threaten anyone who questions what the Koran says. He replied with the following email and related thread so start from the bottom up if youre interested. Thanks for reading and Im curious to hear anyones thoughts on the matter. My apologies in advance for the terrible formatting below, hopefully it's not too difficult to follow. -eltoroverde

[names and contact info have been removed to protect identies of those involved]

-------
XXXXX, my friend (the professor from Columbia) finally wrote back.
Below is his reply.

~
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: XXXXX
Date: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [DC-Shias] URGENT - PROTEST: End Gender Apartheid - Free Nathalie Morin - Saudi Embassy Saturday June 26 1:30pm
To: XXXXX

your response was fine... well done.

id only add that we have a skewed notion of the sharia these days... a proper definition of sharia is "the human attempt to understand god's will at a given time and in a given place"... which means that it is always in flux and varies according to culture and context. What binds different sharias together across time and space is a "method" of determining gods will (otherwise known as fiqh - translatable as jurisprudence)... the set of rules that constitute fiqh have been consistent over time and function like a sort of black box... you add your inputs (place, context, etc..) and it gives you a set of localize rules as the product (Sharia)...

all of which is to say that the sharia is mutable, in constant flux, and highly flexible.

the core of islamic law that is considered immutable consists of quranic laws of which there are very few... there is a gender assumption in the quranic rules that distinguished between the sphere of female and male authority... but again, this is a rather limited set of rules pertaining mostly to inheritance and some aspects of marriage.

in sum: the sharia is very cultural specific and the immutable part of islamic law contains some gender distinctions but nothing on the scale that is enforced in saudi arabia.

*

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:14 PM, XXXXX wrote:
...
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: XXXXX
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: [DC-Shias] URGENT - PROTEST: End Gender Apartheid - Free Nathalie Morin - Saudi Embassy Saturday June 26 1:30pm
To: XXXXX
XXXXX, I appreciate your curiosity.
Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of Sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship. Different countries and cultures have varying interpretations of Sharia. To that end, Saudi views of Sharia are known to be extreme and oppressive even in the Muslim world. Their laws are also influenced by their culture. One good example of this is how women aren't allowed to drive automobiles in their country. This is clearly ludicrous.
MPV could argue with the Saudis regarding the legitimacy of their interpretations of Sharia but this would have no more affect than writing on water. It saddens me that our holy book, the Quran, which I grew up reciting, gets blamed for peoples inability to derive laws that should gracefully evolve with time without losing the idea behind the message. Any holy book could be misinterpreted to justify our personal motives and actions.

I hope I answered your question and look forward to more engaging discussions in the future.

Cheers!
----------
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:38 PM, ETV [me] wrote:
XXXXX- Thanks for sharing. No doubt this is an excellent example of American Muslims speaking out against oppressive Saudi laws and I welcome and celebrate their courage and conviction. That being said, as I understand itand please correct me if Im wrong because I dont claim to be a scholar in this area by any stretch of the imagination so I want to tread very lightly heremany of these oppressive laws are derived from certain aspects of Islam as put forward in the Quran (aka Sharia law ?). If that is in fact the case, it leaves me wondering why MPV does not focus their energies on the source of these oppressive laws rather than the vehicle that merely enforces them? In other words, where does the Saudi government find justification for these laws? Until that justification is addressed and reformed, I have a hard time seeing how MPVs efforts, noble as they are, will have any lasting effect on changing the oppressive laws of the Saudi government. Of course, I could have it totally wrong here so feel free to let me know where Im going off track.
----------
From: XXXXX
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 2:12 PM
To: XXXXX
Subject: Fwd: [DC-Shias] URGENT - PROTEST: End Gender Apartheid - Free Nathalie Morin - Saudi Embassy Saturday June 26 1:30pm

XXXXX, forgive me for emailing this to your work email address but I thought this was a perfect example of American Muslim solidarity against oppressive Saudi laws.

XX
----------
Begin forwarded message:
From: XXXXX
Date: June 21, 2010 12:02:21 PM EDT
To: XXXXX
Subject: [DC-Shias] URGENT - PROTEST: End Gender Apartheid - Free Nathalie Morin - Saudi Embassy Saturday June 26 1:30pm

MPV (Muslims for Progressive Values), both the national organization and the local DC chapter, are staging a protest in Washington DC in support of MPV-Ottawa for the release of Nathalie Morin from Saudi Arabia.

Attached flyer for the protest. This constitutes a press release - so please distribute as widely as possible.

Text of flyer below (as required for most press releases).
PROTEST
Saturday June 26th, 2010, 1:30 pm in front of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia
601 New Hampshire Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20037
To denounce the confinement of Nathalie Morin and her children, and foreign nationals, in Saudi Arabia
Canadian, Nathalie Morin who is 26 years old, along with her three small children, has been held against her will in Saudi Arabia by her common-law husband since 2005. A victim of conjugal violence, confinement and abuse, Nathalie must return to Canada with her children. But in Saudi Arabia a woman must have the authorization of her male guardian to leave the territory and her aggressor will not allow this.
Gender apartheid and the male guardianship system of Saudi Arabia is a violation of womens human rights and international law. As long as the U.S. and Saudi governments consider Nathalie and her childrens case a private affair, they will not deploy all efforts to ensure their safety and bring them home to Canada. During this time, Nathalies condition continues to deteriorate as the abuse worsens.
On June 26th and 27th, representatives of the Saudi government will participate in the G-20 summit in Toronto to discuss the economy. In June 2009 Obama stated in his speech in Cairo: «But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. These are not just American ideas; they are human rights. And that is why we will support them everywhere.» We call on President Obama to defend human rights by demanding that any foreign nationals held captive in Saudi Arabia be allowed to exit the country.
This protest is to declare to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the U.S. Government that Americans are demanding Nathalie Morin and her children, as well as any foreign nationals held captive, be returned to their countries immediately, that they respect the human rights of women and children and ensure the safety of Nathalie Morin and the safety of her children.

Posted by eltoroverde 2010-06-30 16:34|| 2010-06-30 16:34|| Front Page Top

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