Article

2014-09-14 Economy

Illegal Immigration = Industry At War With the Middle Class

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Posted by Ebbomosh Hupemp2664 2014-09-14 00:00|| || Front Page|| [10 views ] Top

#1 tech industry supports executive action by President Obama on illegal immigration in order to depress wages

How many STEM workers sneak across from Mexico?

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2014-09-14 01:09|| 2014-09-14 01:09|| Front Page Top

#2 Not only that, Gromguru, this whole article misses the larger issues, those being the never-ending ratcheting up of material expectations, the toxic progression of relative deprivation amongst the population at large, and the massive increase in government regulation costs which are a de facto pay increase to workers, all of which created this situation in the first place.

The population has seen fit to define up the terms "working class" and "middle class" to ridiculous levels in terms of material living standards that our grandparents would have never recognized. The money for this has come from borrowing and massive increases in labor costs to businesses, particularly small and medium ones.

Fix that and many of these off shoring and immigration problems will go away.

Posted by no mo uro 2014-09-14 05:15|| 2014-09-14 05:15|| Front Page Top

#3 A small facet of a much larger issue.

All immigration depresses incomes of existing residents. Whether they be doctors or mexican peasants.*

The beneficiaries are business and the rich - specifically those who consume more than they produce.

* The only exception I can think of is some lawyers and professional immigration advocates funded from the public purse.

Posted by phil_b 2014-09-14 05:33|| 2014-09-14 05:33|| Front Page Top

#4 Under immigration "reform" H1B visas would triple to 180,000 annually. Each visa good for up to 6 years w/ extensions. By then the visa holder will have a Green Card or go back (and be eligible for another).

6 x 180,000 = 1.08 million H1B visa holders at any one time.

Total # of engineering jobs in US = 1.5 million.

Posted by Cliling Clutle9378 2014-09-14 05:41|| 2014-09-14 05:41|| Front Page Top

#5 Phil, a business which consumes more than it produces goes bankrupt and ceases to exist.

Posted by no mo uro 2014-09-14 05:55|| 2014-09-14 05:55|| Front Page Top

#6 Also, I think you have things backwards.

If the public hadn't used union thuggery, and state, federal, and local labor law, and hadn't voted for regulation-happy politicians to extract historically ridiculous levels of wages from business, and driven up labor costs in the first place, there wouldn't be nearly the demand for foreigners we see now.

I'm not advocating for wretched poverty for the masses here but a happy medium has not existed since the post WWII peace dividend ran out in the '70's. That's just reality.

Posted by no mo uro 2014-09-14 06:01|| 2014-09-14 06:01|| Front Page Top

#7 All immigration depresses incomes of existing residents. Whether they be doctors or mexican peasants.

Americans became poorer by receiving the cream of European educational systems through 20th century?

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2014-09-14 07:19|| 2014-09-14 07:19|| Front Page Top

#8 The left sees amnesty as more dem voters and a bunch of new suckers for the GIVERnment Ponzi schemes that need fresh stooges (54 million abortions did not help this situation). The RINOs in congress owned by the chamber of commerce see amnesty as cheap labor (ie. lower pay with better work ethic).

If only the two camps could get together and pass this without the American people seeing that they are getting royally screwed.

Posted by Airandee 2014-09-14 07:23|| 2014-09-14 07:23|| Front Page Top

#9 the toxic progression of relative deprivation amongst the population at large

The average American has access to things and services the 1 percenters a mere hundred years ago could never enjoy. Show up at an emergency room and get medical care that the Morgans, Rockefellers, and Duponts couldn't even image. This little 'household appliance' communicates at nearly the speed of light around the world. Unthinkable but in a Jules Verne novel of the day. The rich were fat and the poor were grisly thin. Instead of appreciating the vast strides against the true poverty of the masses in history, we just get an unending whine of self pity. It's all about covetousness preached by the socialist for over that hundred years.

Posted by Procopius2k 2014-09-14 08:29|| 2014-09-14 08:29|| Front Page Top

#10 Not just depress wages, but increase rents (and thus decrease land affordability).

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2014-09-14 08:33|| 2014-09-14 08:33|| Front Page Top

#11 >massive increase in government regulation costs which are a de facto pay increase to worker

pay increase? cost of employment increase, but the worker won't be better off, it'll come out of their pay!

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2014-09-14 08:34|| 2014-09-14 08:34|| Front Page Top

#12 Don't blame the [usual suspects] Captains of Industry. Industry no longer needs to import cheap labor. As we have seen over the past 50 years, industry will move globally to achieve it's earnings goals. The blame for rampant illegal immigration lies elsewhere, and we all know where that is.

Posted by Besoeker 2014-09-14 08:35|| 2014-09-14 08:35|| Front Page Top

#13 I remember when 1HB were about 10,000 for 'essential' skills. That was over 40 years ago. Industry has had time to grow their own in the country, but has suppressed the incentive for people to invest their time and money for the skills when the Captains of Industry just call up their Representative or Senator and order more 'quotas'. Captains of Industry prefer the corrupt politicians they know at home than have to move their operation to another country for corrupt politicians they don't know (an who have a record of seizing assets of such 'meddling' foreigners on a whim particularly when they can play their own citizens with a cry to nationalism).

Posted by Procopius2k 2014-09-14 09:07|| 2014-09-14 09:07|| Front Page Top

#14 Uro, I have never heard of a computer or engineering job that's unionized.

And Dr. Hira is right about the relative skills. Most "offshore" developers have had, at most, a cram course on whatever tech their employer thinks is in demand. They've not used it, and don't know how to use it.

Their hourly rate is lower, but it takes two to three times as long AND someone usually has to come back around and redo everything to make it work.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2014-09-14 09:12|| 2014-09-14 09:12|| Front Page Top

#15 In the oil industry, I see a great many foreign workers, in STEM positions. Engineers, geologists, drilling engineers, etc. Many of these are quite experienced as quite a few of US people have retired and there's not enough to fill the ranks.

Posted by Silentbrick 2014-09-14 10:40|| 2014-09-14 10:40|| Front Page Top

#16 ...cause expertise and skill come with experience that takes time. Why waste so much of your life getting the skills and experience to have the 'employer' simply dump money into a reelection campaign to get a cheaper (and more pliable to protect his visa) foreigner to fill the bill? They've done this for nearly 40 years, two generations. They've taught the potential STEM candidates not to bother.

Posted by Procopius2k 2014-09-14 11:09|| 2014-09-14 11:09|| Front Page Top

#17 Let's find some facts that we can agree upon in this conversation rather than getting all up on our hobby horses.

Now these proposed "facts" represent my hobby horses, but it seems plausible (to me) that we can all agree that:

1. Raising the price of something means less of it will be created and consumed.

2. The technical work performed by H1B immigrants largely is in building new things (software, pipelines, etc) that provide enduring value. This type of work is in contrast to the value provided by maintenance work (cutting hair, selling shoes, etc) that is necessary to keep civilization from collapsing, but adds nothing new to the civilization.

3. Having a system of immigration that encourages the admission of immigrants with jobs and skills delivers more goods and services to the country, than a system that encourages the admission of immigrants without jobs or skills would deliver.

4. Given a choice, it is always better to have talented hard working people joining your country than opposing your country.

So, tell me how are these proposed "facts" wrong?

Posted by rammer 2014-09-14 11:56|| 2014-09-14 11:56|| Front Page Top

#18 H1B visas aren't exactly "immigration" ?

Posted by Pappy 2014-09-14 12:44|| 2014-09-14 12:44|| Front Page Top

#19 Dr. Ron Hira, professor of public policy at Howard University, argued that the tech industry supports executive action by President Obama on illegal immigration in order to depress wages, which he stated amounts to a war on the middle class

I can believe this but there is another dimension that should be mentioned and that is the push for multiculturalism that goes on throughout American universities. If you go to a university and take a look at the students in engineering and the sciences, you will see a large number of grad students from other countries which take up resources and displace American students.

Posted by JohnQC 2014-09-14 12:53|| 2014-09-14 12:53|| Front Page Top

#20 rammer you're wrong.

Basic economics is that you get MORE of what you pay for.

If prices rise more producers are enticed into the market. Pay more in welfare benefits for more kids and you get poor people breeding more. Holds true in all endevours. The purpose of H1B is to hold prices for technical labor DOWN to the benefit of the owner class.

Your 3&4 are tautologies which avoid the down side of displacement of citizens from these same good jobs. If there is a real, as opposed to manufactured, shortage then bring in the immigrants. Until then don't pay for current residences to goof off on welfare.

Posted by AlanC 2014-09-14 13:51|| 2014-09-14 13:51|| Front Page Top

#21 If the public hadn't used union thuggery, and state, federal, and local labor law, and hadn't voted for regulation-happy politicians to extract historically ridiculous levels of wages from business, and driven up labor costs in the first place, there wouldn't be nearly the demand for foreigners we see now.

A couple of reactions:

1. Public unions. Public unions such as SEIU don't have a place in the government. They tend to taint the political process by insuring there is a permanent class in government that favors the Democratic Party in the bureaucracy. All who pay taxes end up paying for something in which they don't believe. They also end up supporting the Democratic Party.

2. Regulations. I read or heard the other day that governmental regulations cost us something like $2-3 trillion/year. This may be an underestimate when all Federal, State, and local regulations are considered. Out of a economy of about $17 trillion/year, this represents a huge amount of our economy. These act as an additional tax which robs money from infrastructure, innovation, and jobs.

What's the upshot? Industry tries to buy cheaper labor or cut labor.

Posted by JohnQC 2014-09-14 15:17|| 2014-09-14 15:17|| Front Page Top

#22 Phil, a business which consumes more than it produces goes bankrupt and ceases to exist.

I was referring to the the rich.

Posted by phil_b 2014-09-14 16:35|| 2014-09-14 16:35|| Front Page Top

#23 Americans became poorer by receiving the cream of European educational systems through 20th century?

Americans were likely better off via more succesful businesses, better products/services and increased government tax take.

I was referring to incomes.

All things being equal, an increase in supply always reduces prices (wages in this case).

Posted by phil_b 2014-09-14 16:42|| 2014-09-14 16:42|| Front Page Top

#24 Let's just say for a moment that immigration was 100% a good thing for the US, what does that mean for the countries these people are leaving?

Europeans immigrated to the US in droves in the last century and left the easily manipulated by totalitarians and socialists behind. That has not been helpful to the world in general.

Mexico has had constant flow of the less risk averse (or desperate) for decades and had minimal political change back home as a result because without that safety valve the politicians would have had to face the people long ago.

Cuba's best have snuck out leaving nobody behind to face down the Castros.

We have to live in the world, we should be considering some of these issues on a larger scale.

Posted by rjschwarz 2014-09-14 17:30|| 2014-09-14 17:30|| Front Page Top

#25 AlanC you are wrong to say I am wrong. Your argument is exactly the same as mine.

What you are saying is: lowering the price of labor gives management incentive to buy labor.

What I am saying is: raising the price of labor decreases the incentive to buy labor.

Posted by rammer 2014-09-14 17:39|| 2014-09-14 17:39|| Front Page Top

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